Trinity's Blessing

[Boondorl]

So, there's currently a pretty large topic going on about Trinity. I didn't wanna bother to read all the comments because, given he called something OP, it probably got derailed super hard.

 

I ask that we please try and stay on topic and not point fingers and claim other Warframes are more OP. This post is not meant to invalidate those claims, it's meant to fix the current topic. Yes, Nova, Loki, and to a degree Rhino do all need to be looked at. This however is not a topic about them.

 

So, what's wrong with Trinity and her Blessing? Well, it pretty much invalidates this game. Well of Life, Energy Vamp (and their special interaction), and Link are all perfectly fine. These abilities don't need to be changed, and make Trinity who she is. This change, however, will open up building into these three skills as very viable options.

 

So, what's the problem?

 

I think it's a glaringly obvious problem. 28 seconds of god mode with no exceptions when using max duration. I don't have a single forma on my Trinity and can fit the mods in to give her those 28 seconds. It's simply too long. The other problem is building duration doesn't benefit her other abilities all that well.

 

Solution?

 

The solution is very obvious. No, we won't be adding a range cap to Trinity's Blessing. No, we won't be nerfing the base time for it. What we'll be doing is far simpler.

 

Simply remove its scaling with Duration.

 

Rhino's ult works in a similar fashion. Duration mods do not affect how long or short it is. Trinity's Blessing should work in a similar way. The base time is meant as a way to give players breathing room. If an ally is getting gibbed hard, Blessing won't only heal them, but give them a little bit of time to escape and find cover. Back when Aura helmet and Continuity were all you had to worry about, increasing that time wasn't too big of a deal. However, we can now get 99% additional duration, which poses a problem. Removing Blessing's duration scaling makes it so players can no longer sustain Blessing unless properly modded (75% efficiency). This also solves the problem in the other thread of Link + Blessing + explosives. It'll now be harder for Trinity to just sit there and shoot herself in the foot endlessly.

 

The Result

 

Overall, Trinity will be able to better build into her other abilities without being nothing but a Blessing bot. The change also means Trinity can't currently exploit the Link + Blessing combo as hard as she currently can. Sure, running 4 Trinities will give you the same result we currently have, but that's your own choice. That's not something you can or should even be trying to prevent.

 

Trinity will be in a much better spot with this change IMO. No longer having the need to build into Blessing, it opens up some variety to her kit. Granted, some of her skills could use some better scaling. That's a different issue, however.

 

Other Warframes

 

As I mentioned at the start, let's not turn this into a finger pointing contest. Yes, there are other abilities on Warframes that are too strong. Yes, they do need some tweaking, but that is not what this topic is about. Please refrain from bringing up other 2stronk Warframe abilities as an argument that Trinity's Blessing isn't OP.

Edited April 1, 2014 by Boondorl

[_Absolom_]

*sigh*

Not THIS again...

[Boondorl]

*sigh*

Not THIS again...

 

Thank you for the constructive feedback. I'll keep this in mind when making my next post. You've made a very strong, valid point.

[Nitresco]

I still like the idea of it applying a damage shield similar to Iron Skin that is affected by power strength and not by duration. Since Blind Rage messes with efficiency, it wouldn't get too crazy.

*sigh*

Not THIS again...

Unfortunately, THIS again.

[Energigel]

As if he weren´t right.
Anyways I think they will rework her soon.

[(PSN)Nilphelan]

Rather see a range set to it vs anything else being changed with it.. so if your in a group your counterparts tenno need to be within range to get effected with Blessing.. 28 seconds of god mod still doesn't get people to where they want, still takes grinding and your other weapons.. and simple put by someone else, if the warframe you play is making your gameplay really boring and easy, well select another frame. 

 

Not trying to knock down your idea though.

[Boondorl]

Rather see a range set to it vs anything else being changed with it.. so if your in a group your counterparts tenno need to be within range to get effected with Blessing..

 

My problem with this is it would destroy the purpose of Trinity. Putting on a range cap defeats the point of the ult, given most players don't stick together. The idea behind her ult and slow cast time is it's meant to be able to heal anyone anywhere in order to keep her viable. Putting on a range cap would put her in a similar place to old Rhino and Frost, in a void of uselessness. Players would inevitable end up picking Oberon because he isn't forced to build duration for one skill and his heal isn't limited by range, plus he has good damage. Trinity's other skills simply aren't that attractive because her ultimate is too good. Putting a cap on the duration would allow her to universally heal while still being able to build into her other skills. Putting on a range cap would just make players feel forced to build duration AND range, thus making her other skills even more useless (barring Link).

[ZayTM]

Players would inevitable end up picking Oberon because he isn't forced to build duration for one skill and his heal isn't limited by range, plus he has good damage.

 

Pretty much agree with you 100% EXCEPT for this part. Oberon actually is more or less forced to build duration because Hallowed Ground benefits from this substantially thanks to a long base duration, and Renewal's Heal per Second increases with duration (as it is affected inversely). He's actually more reliant on Duration than her because of this and as such he can't really run Fleeting Expertise. Combined with how much losing range hurts Reckoning and Hallowed Ground, he can't really run Narrow-Minded either. Unlike Trinity, he pays pretty large prices for just about any corrupted mod.

 

But yes, you can't nerf Blessing without buffing or changing other skills. So you know what? Let's buff/change her other skills! I'm more than open to this, I'm even excited about it.

[(PSN)billy-d-squid]

My problem with this is it would destroy the purpose of Trinity. Putting on a range cap defeats the point of the ult, given most players don't stick together. The idea behind her ult and slow cast time is it's meant to be able to heal anyone anywhere in order to keep her viable. Putting on a range cap would put her in a similar place to old Rhino and Frost, in a void of uselessness. Players would inevitable end up picking Oberon because he isn't forced to build duration for one skill and his heal isn't limited by range, plus he has good damage. Trinity's other skills simply aren't that attractive because her ultimate is too good. Putting a cap on the duration would allow her to universally heal while still being able to build into her other skills. Putting on a range cap would just make players feel forced to build duration AND range, thus making her other skills even more useless (barring Link).

 

 

1) If people don't want to stick together and act as a team, then that's their problem, they should not be able to benefit from Trinity's Blessing. Hell a 30m range stretched, is massive and would easily cover an entire area for Defence mobile Defence etc. Every Ult. has a range cap. Trinity's should certainly be on the high side. But unlimited range was a stupid decision on the initial balance decision and has lead to all sorts of abuse. 

 

2) Rhino and Frost were not useless, Rhino skin with duration and Frost duration based Snow Globe, there was a reason they got changed. Game breaking OP on the part of Rhino and frankly boring press 3 spam for frost. 

 

3) Oberon's mediocre. The HP regen is capped at 200, it's slow so you can be downed and the orbs have a long travel time, so you'll almost certainly be dead before they reach you. Blessing is instant and provides invincibility for almost 30 seconds, no cap.

 

Hallowed ground is crap, there's no other word for it. Smite is poor, Renewal is a poor man's Blessing, hell Well of Life works better. An Reckoning, is the only one which is solid, and that quickly loses ground, it's also poor against infested. 

 

4)Trinity's problem is blessing is an all encompassing God mode power, rendering Well of Life pointless and Energy Vampire less a requirement. Combine it with Link and it's a bad set up, given that I don't think it was actually meant for people to take damage then have Blessing step in and go "not happening" before dealing the damage to the target. Giving Well of Life a simple team DR, or reviving a single player who's been downed and scrapping the current set up would go a looooong way to making people actually using it. Currently no one does, because Blessing does everything better.

[Angelus_de_Mortiel]

People will always find a way to abuse everything. Personally, my favourite warframe is Trinity, and I do not even have Narrow Minded. My Blessing rocks about a 12 second duration, which is what I feel is about the right time. I do not spam it (or Link, for that matter). I use blessing at a critical moment of a firefight to push my team through, which is how I feel it was intended.

Nerfing the unlimited range will break Blessing's usability on missions like Interception or Survival. No, no, no. Do not nerf range.

Nerfing duration is feasable, if the duration is maxed at 10-15 seconds and not affected by duration mods. Maybe have the Ability level duration a bit more aggressively (like 2.5 / 5 / 10 / 15 second duration).

If you just entirely remove it's duration, it is nearly useless in end-game missions because that heal will last you about 2 seconds if you are in a bad spot.

[(PSN)billy-d-squid]

^How?

 

You mean because Loki can't cloak and rush in crit the target with a galantine while cloaked and then rush out again under the effects of blessing in capture? Or you can't have people fighting in entirely different rooms over 50 meters away (I don't know why they would as there's no XP shared) in survival? That is the entire problem with it. Yes you can hit 30 seconds, but outside of defence or MD defence it's not necessary. Especially with the helm and energy siphon available. You can spam the damn thing almost to your heart's content, because 15 seconds duration is more than enough and so easy to achieve. Hell, use an easily accessible Constitution mod and Continuity and you already have 15 seconds. 

 

Blessing is not supposed to be a get out of jail free card when one of your team runs off and is going to get himself killed. It's supposed to be a support power, and it's a damn good one, not map encompassing God Mode. And considering all your other powers are going to be capped at 50m anyway, why would Blessing ever have unlimited range unless it's because it's being used as a crutch for teams who abuse the hell out of it by rushing off on maps and just need a Trinity to sit in the corner and spam 4.

 

Saying everything is abused does not let Blessing of the hook for something which is clearly broken.

Edited April 2, 2014 by (PS4)billy-d-squid

[Angelus_de_Mortiel]

^How?

 

You mean because Loki can't cloak and rush in crit the target with a galantine while cloaked and then rush out again under the effects of blessing in capture? Or you can't have people fighting in entirely different rooms over 50 meters away (I don't know why they would as there's no XP shared) in survival? That is the entire problem with it. Yes you can hit 30 seconds, but outside of defence or MD defence it's not necessary. Especially with the helm and energy siphon available. You can spam the damn thing almost to your heart's content, because 15 seconds duration is more than enough and so easy to achieve. Hell, use an easily accessible Constitution mod and Continuity and you already have 15 seconds. 

 

Blessing is not supposed to be a get out of jail free card when one of your team runs off and is going to get himself killed. It's supposed to be a support power, and it's a damn good one, not map encompassing God Mode. And considering all your other powers are going to be capped at 50m anyway, why would Blessing ever have unlimited range unless it's because it's being used as a crutch for teams who abuse the hell out of it by rushing off on maps and just need a Trinity to sit in the corner and spam 4.

 

Saying everything is abused does not let Blessing of the hook for something which is clearly broken.

 

See the problem is that it is *not* broken. It was designed as a clutch ability, and it works precisely as intended. The developers, however, did not anticipate all the ways the ability could be abused under specific circumstances, like combining Blessing with Link and firing an Ogris at your feet. That's not what I would call broken.

Zephyr's ability Dive Bomb is actually broken. Confirmed by that devs that it was applying damage under the surface in which you impact. THAT is broken. Coding that causes the ability to function in a manner other than intended.

Rather than calling it "broken" or "OP", why not just suggest the change and then states the reason why without using words that only selectively apply?

 

The thing is that Blessing *is* supposed to be a get out of jail free card, but I have never encountered a situation where more than 15 seconds is necessary. Using Narrow Minded to be is a waste of a mod slot, and it really only needed by people wanting to have perma-God mode or do that stupid Blessing+Link thing.

Edited April 3, 2014 by Angelus_de_Mortiel

[(PSN)billy-d-squid]

Clutch abilities are broken. Invincibility with unlimited range is broken. It's too all encompassing and allows players to game the system.

 

I did suggest the change, hard caping the radius to a max of 50m, you just ignored it because you don't want the range hard capped. Saying it's a clutch ability, is shoddy reasoning for something to exist in it's current state. By that reasoning Iron Skin, before the change was a "clutch" ability, it was designed that way, and it was stupidly broken, hence the change.

[RealPandemonium]

Clutch abilities are broken. Invincibility with unlimited range is broken. It's too all encompassing and allows players to game the system.

 

I did suggest the change, hard caping the radius to a max of 50m, you just ignored it because you don't want the range hard capped. Saying it's a clutch ability, is shoddy reasoning for something to exist in it's current state. By that reasoning Iron Skin, before the change was a "clutch" ability, it was designed that way, and it was stupidly broken, hence the change.

It's not a clutch ability if you can maintain it indefinitely.  If Blessing's invulnerability only lasted a few seconds (the way it behaves with minimum power duration) it would serve its intended purpose.  

[(PSN)RabidSPG]

So, there's currently a pretty large topic going on about Trinity. I didn't wanna bother to read all the comments because, given he called something OP, it probably got derailed super hard.

 

I ask that we please try and stay on topic and not point fingers and claim other Warframes are more OP. This post is not meant to invalidate those claims, it's meant to fix the current topic. Yes, Nova, Loki, and to a degree Rhino do all need to be looked at. This however is not a topic about them.

 

So, what's wrong with Trinity and her Blessing? Well, it pretty much invalidates this game. Well of Life, Energy Vamp (and their special interaction), and Link are all perfectly fine. These abilities don't need to be changed, and make Trinity who she is. This change, however, will open up building into these three skills as very viable options.

 

So, what's the problem?

 

I think it's a glaringly obvious problem. 28 seconds of god mode with no exceptions when using max duration. I don't have a single forma on my Trinity and can fit the mods in to give her those 28 seconds. It's simply too long. The other problem is building duration doesn't benefit her other abilities all that well.

 

Solution?

 

The solution is very obvious. No, we won't be adding a range cap to Trinity's Blessing. No, we won't be nerfing the base time for it. What we'll be doing is far simpler.

 

Simply remove its scaling with Duration.

 

Rhino's ult works in a similar fashion. Duration mods do not affect how long or short it is. Trinity's Blessing should work in a similar way. The base time is meant as a way to give players breathing room. If an ally is getting gibbed hard, Blessing won't only heal them, but give them a little bit of time to escape and find cover. Back when Aura helmet and Continuity were all you had to worry about, increasing that time wasn't too big of a deal. However, we can now get 99% additional duration, which poses a problem. Removing Blessing's duration scaling makes it so players can no longer sustain Blessing unless properly modded (75% efficiency). This also solves the problem in the other thread of Link + Blessing + explosives. It'll now be harder for Trinity to just sit there and shoot herself in the foot endlessly.

 

The Result

 

Overall, Trinity will be able to better build into her other abilities without being nothing but a Blessing bot. The change also means Trinity can't currently exploit the Link + Blessing combo as hard as she currently can. Sure, running 4 Trinities will give you the same result we currently have, but that's your own choice. That's not something you can or should even be trying to prevent.

 

Trinity will be in a much better spot with this change IMO. No longer having the need to build into Blessing, it opens up some variety to her kit. Granted, some of her skills could use some better scaling. That's a different issue, however.

 

Other Warframes

 

As I mentioned at the start, let's not turn this into a finger pointing contest. Yes, there are other abilities on Warframes that are too strong. Yes, they do need some tweaking, but that is not what this topic is about. Please refrain from bringing up other 2stronk Warframe abilities as an argument that Trinity's Blessing isn't 

 

Clutch abilities are broken. Invincibility with unlimited range is broken. It's too all encompassing and allows players to game the system.

 

I did suggest the change, hard caping the radius to a max of 50m, you just ignored it because you don't want the range hard capped. Saying it's a clutch ability, is shoddy reasoning for something to exist in it's current state. By that reasoning Iron Skin, before the change was a "clutch" ability, it was designed that way, and it was stupidly broken, hence the change.

I think that it shouldn't give invincibility anyway tbh, imo blessing is fine as just a heal and i gimp trinity's duration in order to maximize energy vampire.

[DoomFruit]

See the problem is that it is *not* broken. It was designed as a clutch ability, and it works precisely as intended. The developers, however, did not anticipate all the ways the ability could be abused under specific circumstances, like combining Blessing with Link and firing an Ogris at your feet. That's not what I would call broken.

Zephyr's ability Dive Bomb is actually broken. Confirmed by that devs that it was applying damage under the surface in which you impact. THAT is broken. Coding that causes the ability to function in a manner other than intended.

Rather than calling it "broken" or "OP", why not just suggest the change and then states the reason why without using words that only selectively apply?

 

The thing is that Blessing *is* supposed to be a get out of jail free card, but I have never encountered a situation where more than 15 seconds is necessary. Using Narrow Minded to be is a waste of a mod slot, and it really only needed by people wanting to have perma-God mode or do that stupid Blessing+Link thing.

Stop Link from working on self-damage, then. That'll stop the penta + link + blessing combo.

 

And Blessing is vital on T3 survival once you get to the 45-50 minute mark. Poke your head out for longer than a few seconds and it gets shot right off. Iron skin does very little (that 3,500 HP evaporates extremely quickly - the same reason why Zephyr is a far superior choice to post-nerf Frost on defence missions). Take that away and you're basically forcing everyone to go loki/ash with max duration invisibility builds... except for the poor Nekros who has to cower in the corner and hope that he doesn't take 5 stray bullets while desecrating the much-needed air canisters.

[(PSN)RabidSPG]

Stop Link from working on self-damage, then. That'll stop the penta + link + blessing combo.

 

And Blessing is vital on T3 survival once you get to the 45-50 minute mark. Poke your head out for longer than a few seconds and it gets shot right off. Iron skin does very little (that 3,500 HP evaporates extremely quickly - the same reason why Zephyr is a far superior choice to post-nerf Frost on defence missions). Take that away and you're basically forcing everyone to go loki/ash with max duration invisibility builds... except for the poor Nekros who has to cower in the corner and hope that he doesn't take 5 stray bullets while desecrating the much-needed air canisters.

No because its not 100% damage reduction so the invincibility build will still rule, invincibility sucks anyway imo