Rhino Speed Issues

[Vorsches]

The method in which I display my opinion on this matter is in a respectful and informative fashion, I encourage others' thoughts be presented in a similar fashion.

The Rhino and Rhino prime warframes have the option of equipping the Vanguard alternate helmet to boost speed. While I think that this is a good concept to assist the generally slow rhino, it should stop there. At "assist". Warframes were designed to have strengths and weaknesses to keep them balanced. The Vanguard helmet currently allows Rhino to move at 1.125 speed, with this Rhino moves faster than most average (1.00) speed warframes. In fact rhino gains a greater boost to his speed than average speed frames had over Rhino initially (1.00 - 0.90 = 0.10 whereas 1.125 - 1.00 = 0.125 thus: 0.125 > 0.10). Rhino prime, with his innate boost to speed moves at 1.25 when the Vanguard alternate helmet is equipped, this matches the speed of the current fastest warframe in the game, Loki. So now that you know the facts, we come back to "balance". Rhino is a warframe that is introduced to players as a warframe that has good survivability due to his high shield and armor values at the expense of speed. As shown above, the Vanguard alternate helmet has a dramatic effect on Rhino's speed. This allows Rhino to completely remove the penalties associated with his design. I propose that the Vanguard helmet have a less significant effect on Rhino's speed (for instance, a 10% or less bonus to speed). A bonus of 10% or less is enough to assist Rhino, without completely overcoming the speed penalty received for utilizing a "heavy" warframe. I would also like to suggest that Rhino prime shares the same base move speed of 0.90 just as his non primed counterpart does so that he, being a "heavy" warframe as well, does not contradict the design of Rhino.

I had this on my mind for a while now and I hope that you can appreciate my point of view on the subject.

[PixalatedVortex]

well DE is removing stat helmets soon anyways

[kaboomonme]

There was another topic discussing this. The whole gist of the topic was.

1. A group of people supporting the idea, justifying the removal of stats with "Balance, Rhino's roles, Fairness to newer players" etc.

2. A group of people against the idea, justifying keeping the stats with "Rhino needs the speed, Speed doesn't matter in a PvE game" etc.


Needless to say, the discussion turned into nothing more than a pointless flame-war.

[JohnProdman]

well DE is removing stat helmets soon anyways

I can confirm this.

[Vorsches]

well DE is removing stat helmets soon anyways

When this was mentioned in the livestream the developpers said they would provide blueprints to change current "stat helmets" into ones without additional stats. I hope they remove all stats from helmets but as far as I know we will be receiving blueprints.

[kaboomonme]

When this was mentioned in the livestream the developpers said they would provide blueprints to change current "stat helmets" into ones without additional stats. I hope they remove all stats from helmets but as far as I know we will be receiving blueprints.

They did mention in one of the Community Hot Topics that a lot of player suggestions were being considered, and that was after the livestream. Their final decision is still unknown.

 

[zebar1313]

When this was mentioned in the livestream the developpers said they would provide blueprints to change current "stat helmets" into ones without additional stats. I hope they remove all stats from helmets but as far as I know we will be receiving blueprints.

They said in a previous devstream that those who have helmets with the stats will be able to keep them if the choose. These stats bonuses will be considered a plus of being an early beta tester. But i am assuming that with U13 the stats will be removed from market and alert helms. Unsure about those you've already received and are sitting in foundry tho. But if i remember correctly it was the most recent Dev stream from 2 weeks ago that spoke of the helmet changes. 

[Vorsches]

There was another topic discussing this. The whole gist of the topic was.

1. A group of people supporting the idea, justifying the removal of stats with "Balance, Rhino's roles, Fairness to newer players" etc.

2. A group of people against the idea, justifying keeping the stats with "Rhino needs the speed, Speed doesn't matter in a PvE game" etc.

Needless to say, the discussion turned into nothing more than a pointless flame-war.

I specifically made this thread with the intention of avoiding that sort of behavior, while still expressing my opinion on the situation.

[SquirmyBurrito]

>inb4 "blahblah its PvE"

 

I agree with OP.

Edited April 4, 2014 by Letter13

[Guest]

Welp, it got that far. Everyone abandon thread.

[Vorsches]

This is my honest opinion. I use Loki as an example as he happens to be the only warframe with 1.25 base speed for comparison. A warframe that is balanced by his speed being able to remove that payoff is unfair to others who cannot remove their "gimps" as well.

[se05239]

well DE is removing stat helmets soon anyways

 

And that will be awesome.

[(PSN)Deli176]

The only arguement about stats on helmets is centered around Rhino's speed. Why? Is this the real issue? It is not the real issue. If Iron skin draws aggro like is used to would his speed increase be brought up again? If not, aggro is the issue, not speed. Argue for the aggro aspect which makes more sense than "he's too fast."

[kaboomonme]

I sincerely apologize about your thread OP. I realize you made the thread with good intentions, but that won't stop people from ruining it.

[inBlue]

Frame movement speed is a completely insignificant stat due to the existence of the coptering mechanic.

[kaboomonme]

Frame movement speed is a completely insignificant stat due to the existence of the coptering mechanic.

I actually have to agree with this. Though this might change with Melee 2.0? Who knows.

[SquirmyBurrito]

The only arguement about stats on helmets is centered around Rhino's speed. Why? Is this the real issue? It is not the real issue. If Iron skin draws aggro like is used to would his speed increase be brought up again? If not, aggro is the issue, not speed. Argue for the aggro aspect which makes more sense than "he's too fast."

 

Rhino isn't the only reason for stat removal, he's just the poster child with the most obvious imbalance. Helmets of Mag and Loki are also examples.

[elijahpw]

Most people who want Rhino to be slow down are angry toward 'rusher'. However, this is on the player and not the warframe. Rhino function as mobile tank in comparison with frost, the stationary tank. Rhino speed suppose to help the team (unless you're a $&*^). Rhino weakness, iron skin scale with Power Strength which not quite as useful on higher level like all of his abilities. Loki however do not need to tank (they can't even see him). In fact, all of Loki abilities remain viable throughout. In the end, Rhino is a beginner warframe. Easy to learn/use.

[Vorsches]

Rhino isn't the only reason for stat removal, he's just the poster child with the most obvious imbalance. Helmets of Mag and Loki are also examples.

Nyx's helmet (Vespa?) has almost no drawbacks like your examples!

[SquirmyBurrito]

Nyx's helmet (Vespa?) has almost no drawbacks like your examples!

 

Yes it is.

 

 

Most people who want Rhino to be slow down are angry toward 'rusher'. However, this is on the player and not the warframe. Rhino function as mobile tank in comparison with frost, the stationary tank. Rhino speed suppose to help the team (unless you're a $&*^). Rhino weakness, iron skin scale with Power Strength which not quite as useful on higher level like all of his abilities. Loki however do not need to tank (they can't even see him). In fact, all of Loki abilities remain viable throughout. In the end, Rhino is a beginner warframe. Easy to learn/use.

 

There are a number of things wrong with this, but I'll stick to pointing out the first problem.

Your reasoning falls apart if you do not consider Vanguard's stats to have been part of the original thought process of Rhino. Prior to that helmet Rhino was just as slow as Frost (slower with thrak), if speed was supposed to be part of his design DE would have added it from the beginning.

[Letter13]

Well hopefully the thread is now back on track.

 

Thread cleansed, re-railed from the de-rail.

[kaboomonme]

Most people who want Rhino to be slow down are angry toward 'rusher'. However, this is on the player and not the warframe. Rhino function as mobile tank in comparison with frost, the stationary tank. Rhino speed suppose to help the team (unless you're a $&*^). Rhino weakness, iron skin scale with Power Strength which not quite as useful on higher level like all of his abilities. Loki however do not need to tank (they can't even see him). In fact, all of Loki abilities remain viable throughout. In the end, Rhino is a beginner warframe. Easy to learn/use.

I think I've mentioned this in the other thread before, but I don't see a reason why Rhino would need this speed.

Rhino is a good frame. And I mean REALLY good. There is a reason why he's so commonly picked and is such a good pick for soloing missions.

But none of his abilities are speed-dependent. If anything, it backs up his original lack of speed very well. A combination of a charge, a team buff, a damage buffer, and a really good CC.

Yes, he is a mobile tank and a powerhouse, but in which ways to these require speed? This can be led back to "rusher", just as you have mentioned. Any player can rush ahead of Rhino, just as Rhino can now rush ahead of any player. Whether it is a band-aid solution or an unintended effect, nobody knows.

Rhino's abilities are good when he stays with his team, but speed does not equal to staying with the team. A team can rush ahead of Frost, just as any team can rush ahead of Rhino. 

Also, a beginner Warframe would imply that Rhino is easy to learn/use, but hard to master, and players would move on to other frames when they get the chance.  I disagree, as a lot of players tend to stick with Rhino even very far into the game, for obvious reasons. He is also one of the only frames with a Mastery Rank lock.

A true beginner frame, imo would be Excalibur. Due to the current system, his skills tend to look more and more lackluster throughout the game, as a good deal of frames can outperform him. He can still fill his role perfectly, of course, but when there are frames that can literally wipe out rooms with the press of a button, there is less incentive to stay in your old shoes, and many choose to move on from him.

 

[Vorsches]

I appreciate all the feedback you have given me, and I now have a few different outlooks concerning Rhino and his speed options!

[YBD215]

Dear god... Why is there another Rhino speed cry fest. These topics are kinda pointless. There is really no point to the topic because if we really want to "balance" the game, you would need to strip every frame of every ability, and give them all the exact same stats. Then you would have to make it so every frame has access to every skill set in the game. That is because these opinions on balance are just that. Opinions... I think it is stupid and imbalanced that Loki is the fastest (WHY IS HE FASTER THAN VOLT???), and easily one of the best frames in the game (AS A STARTER FRAME). He is good in combo with team play. He out does Ash in solo play. he is great for agro and can damn near perma invis himself. Given the strength of some of the guns, Loki can easily outperform Rhino. And he is more Viable in late game play. The only thing Loki doesn't excel at is damage like a Nova frame. BUT, most damage abilities are a waste of a slot once you go into late game. some begin to fall out mid way through this game.

 

Balance in a game were you can make a gun literally do 100x is base damage... These threads are laughable 

[Vorsches]

Dear god... Why is there another Rhino speed cry fest. These topics are kinda pointless. There is really no point to the topic because if we really want to "balance" the game, you would need to strip every frame of every ability, and give them all the exact same stats. Then you would have to make it so every frame has access to every skill set in the game. That is because these opinions on balance are just that. Opinions... I think it is stupid and imbalanced that Loki is the fastest (WHY IS HE FASTER THAN VOLT???), and easily one of the best frames in the game (AS A STARTER FRAME). He is good in combo with team play. He out does Ash in solo play. he is great for agro and can damn near perma invis himself. Given the strength of some of the guns, Loki can easily outperform Rhino. And he is more Viable in late game play. The only thing Loki doesn't excel at is damage like a Nova frame. BUT, most damage abilities are a waste of a slot once you go into late game. some begin to fall out mid way through this game.

 

Balance in a game were you can make a gun literally do 100x is base damage... These threads are laughable

While I am hurt that you consider my thread laughable, I too have wondered why Volt always had average (1.00) speed as well. I think that if he had greater speed AND an ability to increase his speed it might make him "too" quick.