Derp Loki - A Newbie Experiment

[Monolake]

For Hornet you have to farm infested, which obviously none of the new players know about, Serration is RNG and most players dont have it either (I got my Serration when I was far past Earth). 

If everyone got guaranteed damage mods rewards early then there wouldnt be any problem, it's been said in dozens of threads already. No mods due to blind RNG = suffer.  And its so bloody easy to fix and many ways to do  using already present functionality (just have a noob-only no time limit  alert on Venus for example), if only DE bothered to.

Edited April 4, 2014 by Monolake

[Monolake]

You guys who are so hung up on the OD aspect of what he did, instead of sitting around like a bunch of clucking hens, why don't you do something.  Why don't you go and calculate the exact effect that serration had on his Eurasia run.  You all pose yourselves as experts go ahead put your money where your big mouths are.  He had what something like 70 kills.  What percentage of that was due to serration.  

 

Do something meaningful instead of cluck cluck cluck oh the sky is falling for new players... cluck cluck.

 get some manners and do some simple math yourself instead of being a douchebag

Edited April 4, 2014 by Monolake

[mpastor]

I started a new account today.  Trying to decide how I want to run it.  Currently Loki, but its kinda been there done that.  I might buy Volt and see how he fares now.  Also, I was going to stick to the planetary system missions.  I think I will do it to give advice to new players on what to do at start.  It is very clear to me though that a new gun is needed... just a little more cash and I will have it.  I also think I will play with the community like a new player would.  So far this has really slowed me down and cost me some cash and xp.  I think solo is the way to go, but I will stick with community.

 

With the MK1 you really need to concentrate on head shots.  

[SableSonata]

What you did in 5 hours would probably take an actual new player 15-20, if not more. You knew exactly what you needed to do, where to go, and how to spend your limited resources. Mos players don't have Serration by the time they hit Earth. Hell, I've seen players past Earth without Redirection.

 

New players won't be doing void missions. New players won't be farming for mods. New players are extremely unlikely to have two promotional weapons that are not only upgrades to standard weapons, but come with Catalysts installed.

 

And that's before factoring in that you are not only experienced in the game in general, but that you know how Interception works and what a good strategy for it is.

 

So basically, here's what's wrong with this experiment:

1. You (more your team mate) are using weapons/mods that it is not reasonable to expect a new player to have at that point (or at levels it's not reasonable for them to be).

2. You're not a new player (not much can be done about that though).

3. You have to get other players to carry you through missions that are beyond your abilities, in order to get the resources you need. It's no better than just getting high-level players to carry you through Eurasia, which is the problem at hand. 

 

To do something like this, you would need four players to start new accounts and only play together, so that the party is always four new players. No use of promotional weapons, as events are not a guarantee for any new player (not to mention that the Gorgon Wraith would likely require a new player to be carried by high-level players in the first place).

[Lowsodium]

I have a question about those void runs. How many secret rooms did you get into? I only have my own experiance to go on here, but I don't think most people get any but the most obvious containers in the void the first few times around. Especially not the ones that require you look around the room, hit a switch that may or may not open another door, and do some signifigant parkore.

[.Talia.]

I have a question about those void runs. How many secret rooms did you get into? I only have my own experiance to go on here, but I don't think most people get any but the most obvious containers in the void the first few times around. Especially not the ones that require you look around the room, hit a switch that may or may not open another door, and do some signifigant parkore.

 

I did not enter any secret rooms on the void runs.

 

 

1. You (more your team mate) are using weapons/mods that it is not reasonable to expect a new player to have at that point (or at levels it's not reasonable for them to be).

 

 

And sure, he only got 70 kills. The person with the GW and DF carried them practically. I bet without that guy and replacing it with another fresh newb (which happens very often on eurasia) the mission would have turned out very differently.

 

 

Lots of newbies i have encountered in this play through were using Dex Furis and Gorgon Wraith. As a matter of fact, i encountered more MR0 using Dex Furis than using Lato.

Edited April 4, 2014 by RexSol

[DoomFruit]

Lots of newbies i have encountered in this play through were using Dex Furis and Gorgon Wraith. As a matter of fact, i encountered more MR0 using Dex Furis than using Lato.

That would be because they logged in recently and got given a new weapon (which is pretty much a straight upgrade to their current pistol) for free. There's nothing to lose from trying it out.

[mpastor]

@mpastor

I HAVE run through eurasia in a new account.

I HAVE helped dozens of new players through eurasia.

And the difficulty of that node for the average group of new players is well and beyond what it should be at that point in the game.

I have gone through Eurasia quite a few times in new gear with only things I have gotten from running from mercury to earth. And with a group of 4 new players who dont know much about the game (which is the vast majority of new players) it was a huge spike in difficulty that came from no where and generally trashed the groups I was in.

Only reason that it was doable was because I knew how to play Excal and relied *very* heavily on radial blind.

A new player doesn't know how to do that.

And watching new players get swarmed by multiple leaders and heavy units (including eviscerators)and watching them get slaughtered is not something that you should see so early in the game.

And sure, he only got 70 kills. The person with the GW and DF carried them practically. I bet without that guy and replacing it with another fresh newb (which happens very often on eurasia) the mission would have turned out very differently.

EDIT:

It should be INCREDIBLY telling that the two actual newbies got 13 and 29 kills respectively.

If it was actually balanced for the new players they should have gotten a much more even number of kills than that.

 

I find your comments here very interesting.  

 

FIrst off, the node is harder than other missions in the area.  But, perhaps this is the point.  Perhaps, this node was designed to be hard so some folks would hit it and slow down.  Especially the guys who are not really prepared to go further.  If the goal is to slow some people then I think it does a good job. For one, it is not gimmicky.  Your shields are not taken away or your energy snatched.   It is simply tactically challenging.

 

Now look at the performance of the players.  The guy with the best weapons got the most kills and generally performed well.  I have heard a lot of you guys comment about new players and not knowing this or having that.  Well, this guy (an MR2) had the best weapon set in the squad.  My guess is he bought them.  He seemed to understand the tactical situation too.  You see, all new players are not poor players as many of you guys assume.  In fact, if you have any FPS experience at all, you will be good at this game from the first map.  Good players also often look into the game they are playing.  It's a very simple matter to watch a you tube video and know what you need to be good.  One trip to the wiki tells you where to get it.  Maybe this high scoring guy also visited the OD and void.  

 

Now look at the poorer performing characters.  The one thing they had in common was crappy weapons.  Heck the one guy didnt even have a Dex set.  He probably started playing that day.  Is it really that surprising with poor equipment and low experience these guys did poorly.  Imagine if the party was made up exclusively of guys like this.  Finally the OP with adequate equipment did second best.  Is this not what we should expect?  If you buy good equipment, at this level of the game, you will perform better than the free to play guys who still have their noob guns.  So I think it is telling that these players performed as expected.

 

Note:  I cant help noticing you have a new reason why he suceeded with his experiment every couple times you post.  First they won because he visited OD.  Next it was because he was a vet in disguise.  Then it was the other guy who made them win carrying the squad.  Which is it?  Some of those are mutually exclusive.  You even claimed that you were able to complete this mission with a total newb crew, even while sticking to the planetary system, implying that it can be without the OD visit.  Don't these seem a little odd. They cant all be true.  So which is?  It strikes me that maybe you are just looking for reasons to poo poo this effort. 

[AcquisCommunitaire]

I find your comments here very interesting.  

 

FIrst off, the node is harder than other missions in the area.  But, perhaps this is the point.  Perhaps, this node was designed to be hard so some folks would hit it and slow down.  Especially the guys who are not really prepared to go further.  If the goal is to slow some people then I think it does a good job. For one, it is not gimmicky.  Your shields are not taken away or your energy snatched.   It is simply tactically challenging.

 

Now look at the performance of the players.  The guy with the best weapons got the most kills and generally performed well.  I have heard a lot of you guys comment about new players and not knowing this or having that.  Well, this guy (an MR2) had the best weapon set in the squad.  My guess is he bought them.  He seemed to understand the tactical situation too.  You see, all new players are not poor players as many of you guys assume.  In fact, if you have any FPS experience at all, you will be good at this game from the first map.  Good players also often look into the game they are playing.  It's a very simple matter to watch a you tube video and know what you need to be good.  One trip to the wiki tells you where to get it.  Maybe this high scoring guy also visited the OD and void.  

 

Now look at the poorer performing characters.  The one thing they had in common was crappy weapons.  Heck the one guy didnt even have a Dex set.  He probably started playing that day.  Is it really that surprising with poor equipment and low experience these guys did poorly.  Imagine if the party was made up exclusively of guys like this.  Finally the OP with adequate equipment did second best.  Is this not what we should expect?  If you buy good equipment, at this level of the game, you will perform better than the free to play guys who still have their noob guns.  So I think it is telling that these players performed as expected.

 

Note:  I cant help noticing you have a new reason why he suceeded with his experiment every couple times you post.  First they won because he visited OD.  Next it was because he was a vet in disguise.  Then it was the other guy who made them win carrying the squad.  Which is it?  Some of those are mutually exclusive.  You even claimed that you were able to complete this mission with a total newb crew, even while sticking to the planetary system, implying that it can be without the OD visit.  Don't these seem a little odd. They cant all be true.  So which is?  It strikes me that maybe you are just looking for reasons to poo poo this effort. 

 

1. Slowing down is nice. Slowing down to the point of having new players trying this mission again and again for hours to no avail isn't.

 

2. I don't know what is with you advocating others to purchase every single thing, but the gorgon wraith and dex furis cannot be purchased. So contrary to your suggestion, he didn't buy them.

Also, if you get past Eurasia/Lua, you will have access to the rest of the planets. At that stage, it is unnecessary to go to the void or ODD.

 

3. As per (2), the gorgon wraith and dex furis cannot be purchased. The player with MR2 did the best simply because he/she was MR2 and had access to more planets and weapons, coupled with the experience of having played the game for a while.

If what the OP is what is actually intended of what new players should do, then it is terribly inefficient to go to the void and ODD just to get mods. If being carried is permitted, I don't see why the OP can't join void games and farm the entire latron prime set. To that effect, it is perfectly possible to farm the boar prime or the boltor prime as well. If you then say orokin cells is a problem, then it is perfectly possible for the OP to go to the recruiting channel and ask if someone could unlock the relevant boss (whatever his name was) as well.

 

4. All he/she was saying is that there are other reasons resulting in the success of the experiment. I shall now list some of the main ones (note, I am not going to state all):

i) The OP was not a true new player. A new player does not finish the tutorial knowing that there is such a thing as the void or ODD.

ii) The OP was carried through missions (Void and ODD) pursuant to i). This means that the experiment may (with emphasis) not have succeeded should he not traveled to the void or ODD.

iii) Eurasia was completed with the help of a more advanced player (namely, the player with the gorgon wraith).

 

If the flaws of the experiment is to be minimal, then the following have to be complied with:

a) A veteran is not allowed to pose as a new player. Only by observing what new players do would it show what the new players are truly capable of doing.

 

As it is not viable to do (a) - if that is possible, we wouldn't be at a disagreement, the best method is to do the following:

 

b) The experimenter can only enter the void or the derelicts if the rest of the team have been progressing through the star system and Eurasia is the next mission on Earth that all the players have to complete to continue progressing. This meas that the experimenter is effectively limited to whatever void he/she obtains from the defence and survival missions on Mercury and Venus. As the experimenter cannot create a derelict key, the derelicts would effectively not be accessible by the experimenter.

 

c) The experimenter can only complete Eurasia, the void, and the derelicts (for some magical reason that the experimenter could obtain a derelict key without acquiring nano spores) with other new players who have only played on Mercury and Venus.

 

d) The experimenter can only complete Eurasia with the aforementioned new players who have only played Mercury and Venus and Earth up until the point of Eurasia unless the relevant player satisfies (e).

 

e) New players are defined as players who have only completed missions on Mercury and Venus and the nodes on Earth up until Eurasia. Players that are not new players as defined are to be deemed as new players if they are players who have only completed missions on Mercury and Venus and the nodes on Earth up until Eurasia and all void and derelict missions as is possible if and only if the player in question is capable of hosting the relevant game in the void or the derelict - i.e. keys as are obtainable from Mercury, Venus, and all nodes up to but excluding Eurasia.

[.Talia.]

1. Slowing down is nice. Slowing down to the point of having new players trying this mission again and again for hours to no avail isn't.

 

2. I don't know what is with you advocating others to purchase every single thing, but the gorgon wraith and dex furis cannot be purchased. So contrary to your suggestion, he didn't buy them.

Also, if you get past Eurasia/Lua, you will have access to the rest of the planets. At that stage, it is unnecessary to go to the void or ODD.

 

3. As per (2), the gorgon wraith and dex furis cannot be purchased. The player with MR2 did the best simply because he/she was MR2 and had access to more planets and weapons, coupled with the experience of having played the game for a while.

If what the OP is what is actually intended of what new players should do, then it is terribly inefficient to go to the void and ODD just to get mods. If being carried is permitted, I don't see why the OP can't join void games and farm the entire latron prime set. To that effect, it is perfectly possible to farm the boar prime or the boltor prime as well. If you then say orokin cells is a problem, then it is perfectly possible for the OP to go to the recruiting channel and ask if someone could unlock the relevant boss (whatever his name was) as well.

 

4. All he/she was saying is that there are other reasons resulting in the success of the experiment. I shall now list some of the main ones (note, I am not going to state all):

i) The OP was not a true new player. A new player does not finish the tutorial knowing that there is such a thing as the void or ODD.

ii) The OP was carried through missions (Void and ODD) pursuant to i). This means that the experiment may (with emphasis) not have succeeded should he not traveled to the void or ODD.

iii) Eurasia was completed with the help of a more advanced player (namely, the player with the gorgon wraith).

 

If the flaws of the experiment is to be minimal, then the following have to be complied with:

a) A veteran is not allowed to pose as a new player. Only by observing what new players do would it show what the new players are truly capable of doing.

 

As it is not viable to do (a) - if that is possible, we wouldn't be at a disagreement, the best method is to do the following:

 

b) The experimenter can only enter the void or the derelicts if the rest of the team have been progressing through the star system and Eurasia is the next mission on Earth that all the players have to complete to continue progressing. This meas that the experimenter is effectively limited to whatever void he/she obtains from the defence and survival missions on Mercury and Venus. As the experimenter cannot create a derelict key, the derelicts would effectively not be accessible by the experimenter.

 

c) The experimenter can only complete Eurasia, the void, and the derelicts (for some magical reason that the experimenter could obtain a derelict key without acquiring nano spores) with other new players who have only played on Mercury and Venus.

 

d) The experimenter can only complete Eurasia with the aforementioned new players who have only played Mercury and Venus and Earth up until the point of Eurasia unless the relevant player satisfies (e).

 

e) New players are defined as players who have only completed missions on Mercury and Venus and the nodes on Earth up until Eurasia. Players that are not new players as defined are to be deemed as new players if they are players who have only completed missions on Mercury and Venus and the nodes on Earth up until Eurasia and all void and derelict missions as is possible if and only if the player in question is capable of hosting the relevant game in the void or the derelict - i.e. keys as are obtainable from Mercury, Venus, and all nodes up to but excluding Eurasia.

 

Thank you! That's constructive criticism. +1

 

See, you don't have to hate me for showing my point of view.

[liavalenth]

I  like this experiment. Thank you for taking the time to actually test the system.

 

However, as pointed out, your experiment has a very large flaw in it - that you got carried. It would be great if someone would make a new account without using any form of chat outside of group chat and not telling anyone about the account until completing the experiment.

 

This is a strange requirement, but by making a new account and not using chat, telling no one about the account, you cannot skew it further than advanced knowledge, which you have by default as an advanced player. Limit the variables as much as possible. Further use as little advanced knowledge as you can. Definitely make sure you get help from no one you know and avoid being carried by friends. Using the global chat seems fair, but because it is being done due to advanced knowledge it is not helpful for the experiment.

 

However, if an advanced player shows up in group chat and is willing to help out at random then that is as much a part of the new player experience as anything else. On the other hand this is a random happenstance, so for this to really work we should get 100+ people to do this and combine their data (or have one person do it 100 times...which should not be possible because DE should fix it before then).

[Lokismokes]

So started a new account, ran for the most part a linear line to Eurasia with Loki.  I found the experience kind of interesting, but I thought it was dull.  FOr the most part I grouped, though I would start a mission fresh, by myself usually.  On occasion I ended up soloing the mission to the end.  I had some issues with "Host migration" that cause me much grief for a day.  

 

I used 7 hrs before getting to Eurasia.  Could have got there a little faster but I ran mercury survivals and defense a couple of times.  I obtained no outstanding mods ever.  I collected inside the mission as much loot as was available without moving off of the beaten path.  All mods gained were either average or below.  No elemental or other main weapon damage mods.  I got heat for the pistol but rarely used that.  I bought a braton as soon as I could.  Very easy to pick this gun up back on Mercury.

 

What I observed.

 

Prior to Eurasia:  

I moved at a measured pace, staying with or just in front of the pack.  Occasionally a higher level warframe would join the group, but 80% of the time squad members had similar levels.  Mercury seems very easy for everyone. People often run ahead into large groups and start melee'n.  Venus things slowed down.  Was less wise to run ahead of group and hero mobs (though by this time my invisibility was sound and I often would).  The first mission on earth seemed easier than Venus.  People started throwing caution to wind again.  Oro, the second, was the same... however, it did give a little bit of a preview of what is ahead.  It's too bad this mission was not setup to last a bit longer (maybe two or three sabotages).  This way people would be conditioned to perhaps move a little more carefully.

 

Eurasia:  

Loki was 18th level with around 7 hours game time.  Braton was 20.  I was MR1 with enough affinity to take the MR2 test (decided not to wait a day for it). ).  MR2 does not in any way indicate a veteran player.  MR2 is still a rookie player.  So I was "All but MR2 test" mastery level.

 

I selected the Eurasia node.  Here is where I learned something that I had not really realized.  I waited for the others to join.  One did soon and the countdown began.  He carried all his noob weapons.  We inserted and I immediately asked him to wait for more.  He didnt but took off.  By the time a third had joined a tower had fallen... I was still at the start.  I aborted and tried again.  To make a long story short, it took me five starts before I could get three people to wait at start.  The fourth took off as soon as he landed and we all followed.  We finished the map with about 200 kills.  I held one tower and supported another.  Key to me being able to hold my tower was using Loki's power when tough stuff showed and being able to quickly dispatch trash mobs.  We beat the mission only losing one tower briefly with 100% while the grineer never breached 10%.  It took me maybe 30 minutes to complete Eurasia (including the restarts).  

 

Summary:

I found starting this mission quite annoying.  Had this been my first time through, I probably would have taken off too at the start.  However after one maybe two runs, it should be clear to all but the nutty that four people are needed to approach the towers together.  I think what this mission clearly shows is not so much how broken the mission or new player experience is, but rather that the squad grouping mechanic is very poor.  This mission was too advanced for the primitive squad grouping that exists in the current game. 

 

Of course it would have been even easier to complete had I been able to recruit a squad and perhaps brief them before hand like I sometimes do in void and OD missions.  I did not want to use the recruit screen though.  Another thing I noticed on my journey was how poor some of the higher level player's skills were.  This is something I dont really focus on while playing the end game.  I usually just kill, kill, and kill.  However, in missions like survival or defense on mercury... High level players often get mixed into low level groups.  It was amazing how many times I had to scrape their hulks up off the pavement, or how many could not even keep up with the killing rate of a low level frame with a braton.

 

Poor high level skills may be another issue causing problems with the Eurasia mission.  Before starting on this journey, I went to Eurasia with an end game Loki and solo'd it.  There were about 100 kills, but it was challenging.  I then joined an Eurasia game in progress.  When I ported in they were on the brink of failing and behind by 10%.  This was even more of a challenge.  Not only did I have to play medic but regain control of a map literally swarming with Grineer.  I believe many many high level players find this very difficult to do.  You have to figure, if you port into a mission... its already started.  That means they (the two or three new players) have foolishly begun with a light party.  So, typically, high level players only end up in disasters.  This can really kind of skew the view of the mission into a perception that it is harder than it actually is.  So, I suggest if you are going to go help out on Eurasia as a high level frame, you be able to solo it first.  Then be prepared to port into a disaster.

 

As a final point, I want to state that imo no additional mods would have made any difference in the outcome of the mission.  Key to this mission is being able to implement teamwork.  I don't at all see a need to add more mods to the beginning game.  In fact you could give new players every mod available and there would still be tons of failures here.  At the point I am at in the game (roughly day two or three for a new player) I will be in a position to trade, buy, or build what I need and still advance easily.  Now, a person who is playing totally ftp, will need to work hard or be a ninja.  I don't think that is unfair.  

Edited April 6, 2014 by Lokismokes

[mpastor]

1. Slowing down is nice. Slowing down to the point of having new players trying this mission again and again for hours to no avail isn't.

 

2. I don't know what is with you advocating others to purchase every single thing, but the gorgon wraith and dex furis cannot be purchased. So contrary to your suggestion, he didn't buy them.

Also, if you get past Eurasia/Lua, you will have access to the rest of the planets. At that stage, it is unnecessary to go to the void or ODD.

 

3. As per (2), the gorgon wraith and dex furis cannot be purchased. The player with MR2 did the best simply because he/she was MR2 and had access to more planets and weapons, coupled with the experience of having played the game for a while.

If what the OP is what is actually intended of what new players should do, then it is terribly inefficient to go to the void and ODD just to get mods. If being carried is permitted, I don't see why the OP can't join void games and farm the entire latron prime set. To that effect, it is perfectly possible to farm the boar prime or the boltor prime as well. If you then say orokin cells is a problem, then it is perfectly possible for the OP to go to the recruiting channel and ask if someone could unlock the relevant boss (whatever his name was) as well.

 

4. All he/she was saying is that there are other reasons resulting in the success of the experiment. I shall now list some of the main ones (note, I am not going to state all):

i) The OP was not a true new player. A new player does not finish the tutorial knowing that there is such a thing as the void or ODD.

ii) The OP was carried through missions (Void and ODD) pursuant to i). This means that the experiment may (with emphasis) not have succeeded should he not traveled to the void or ODD.

iii) Eurasia was completed with the help of a more advanced player (namely, the player with the gorgon wraith).

 

If the flaws of the experiment is to be minimal, then the following have to be complied with:

a) A veteran is not allowed to pose as a new player. Only by observing what new players do would it show what the new players are truly capable of doing.

 

As it is not viable to do (a) - if that is possible, we wouldn't be at a disagreement, the best method is to do the following:

 

b) The experimenter can only enter the void or the derelicts if the rest of the team have been progressing through the star system and Eurasia is the next mission on Earth that all the players have to complete to continue progressing. This meas that the experimenter is effectively limited to whatever void he/she obtains from the defence and survival missions on Mercury and Venus. As the experimenter cannot create a derelict key, the derelicts would effectively not be accessible by the experimenter.

 

c) The experimenter can only complete Eurasia, the void, and the derelicts (for some magical reason that the experimenter could obtain a derelict key without acquiring nano spores) with other new players who have only played on Mercury and Venus.

 

d) The experimenter can only complete Eurasia with the aforementioned new players who have only played Mercury and Venus and Earth up until the point of Eurasia unless the relevant player satisfies (e).

 

e) New players are defined as players who have only completed missions on Mercury and Venus and the nodes on Earth up until Eurasia. Players that are not new players as defined are to be deemed as new players if they are players who have only completed missions on Mercury and Venus and the nodes on Earth up until Eurasia and all void and derelict missions as is possible if and only if the player in question is capable of hosting the relevant game in the void or the derelict - i.e. keys as are obtainable from Mercury, Venus, and all nodes up to but excluding Eurasia.

 

1)  I don't see people typically taking hours and hours to finish this mission. Typically. If you look above, it took but thirty minutes.  And some people will go through this mission on their first run... like I did with a friend the first time I encountered it while at lower level.

 

2)  I was of course thinking of the dual heat swords which I guess you hadn't noticed.  They were really the only weapons on that guy and for a new player capable of really handing it to the Grineer.  (reseaonable puncture and mod buff ability).  The Gorgon only has a 2 puncture.

 

3)  A person can easily have MR2 by Eurasia.  Easy.  You can accumulate enough affinity in a day of play.  You merely have to wait to take the test.  Start of your third day typically.  Especially if you are buying things like Heat swords, or gaining new weapons through the challenge or birthday gift.  Buying stuff is part of the game.  Most people spend a little money, at least for the games sake I would hope so.

 

4) Do you really think the Gorgon Wraith carrier was the best player there?  Come on your pushing it. He had a good melee set for the mission.  MR2 is not by anyone's measure a veteran player indicator.  Perhaps he restarted like the host... but we dont know that.  He is not even considered a novice by Mastery standards.

 

THe rest of your comment deals with another experiment.  What are you trying to show here?  Perhaps you should try it.  But again please list your thesis.  I don't think its a good test modeling all new players, but I am sure it would have some value.  Maybe as a test for a new player who is completely new to MMO's and FPS.  A player with poor skills and has no interest in spending any money at all.  I am sure EA wants everyone imaginable to play their game.  But catering to this guy, though something they would like to do, is probably not high on their list of priorities (whether they admit or not).

 

BTW, keys can be traded.  It is really easy.. in fact almost typical for people to at least accumulate enough affinity by Eurasia for MR2.  A savvy group of new players might have read about the vault and its wonders.  They may want to trade for a DE key (if DE keys are trade-able) to try it out. Why not.  Its a good move.  Any tainted mod they get will be a good mod.  An organized party of 20+ level frames can easily deal with the infested.  I am not saying this group is typical but it sure would not be below average.  At any rate, they would not be represented in your test and shouldn't they be?  You seem to be perfectly fine including people from the other side of the bell curve.  

 

Finally though, isnt your test really impractical?  I mean where are you going to find 4 people new to this game and set them off on this experiment.  It is certainly orders of magnitude more difficult than one person (be he vet or not) trying to mimic the situation.  Perhaps the near impossibility of the task is one reason you suggested it as the only right method?  

Edited April 6, 2014 by mpastor

[liavalenth]

@Lokismokes

Your experience with the game is definitely causing an effect on the difficulty of the mission, so I am unsure if your test is conclusive. Unfortunately, it is impossible to know how much of an effect your knowledge has on the outcome of the Eurasia mission.

 

From what you have said, however, it is clear that the mission is possible for new players with just things they obtained from normal play. Unfortunately, at the same time, you showed that the mission is may still be too difficult for an average player using the random group option. As far as I know, that is the standard way to get a group even for advanced players, more so for new players.

 

So, from the data you have provided, other than the fact that 1 data point is useless and we need more data for anything useful, I would say decreasing the difficulty of the mission or improving the squad grouping and mission preparation system. Either would work, but it seems that decreasing the difficulty would be easier for the devs in the short run. While I realize your experience shows that you can finish the mission, the difficulty is still harder than it should be at that point, with the grouping system we have.

 

EDIT: Although, when I consider what you said, there is another problem that is occurring. A problem we all know exists but has not been solved, although it probably never will be because it is very difficult to solve, but has been worked on and greatly improved over time. That is the fact that in-game information about how things work is too sparse. It took me way too long to learn how enemies capture towers, considering they do it instantly and do not have to kill the Tenno there to do it. Eventually I figured out that they used the consoled, but that took me 4-5 runs, and I know roughly what I am doing (I think, maybe. It did take me 4-5 runs so...off track again).

 

TL:DR; Your probably right, the grouping system is the problem, not necessarily the mission. However, considering how long it will be before they fix that, decreasing the difficulty for now is the best option IMO. EDIT: And add more information on game modes, and the game in general, in-game.

Edited April 6, 2014 by liavalenth

[mpastor]

I was reading your comments above and have to say I agree with a lot you wrote.  I am, however, against making this easier.  Here is why,

 

This mission is tactically challenging.  There is nothing too tough about killing grineer at the rate you have to here to succeed.   Players did that in the mission just previous to this.  What makes this tough is the combination of tactical challenges.  I like you didnt really understand the mechanics of this mission until recently.  Knowing these makes things a little easier.  

 

1.  You could get a lead then hold only two towers with whole team.  This then turns into a watered down defend mission.

2.  You could camp the console sites, or learn to spot the console runners and kill them as we are trained to do in all levels previous to this to avoid alerts.

 

But, as you stated the mission is too complex for the "primitive" grouping system currently in place.  It is too bad too.  Because if you could make mission more complex and therefore more challenging, then you could up the drop rate of the rewards.  This would enable less grind and more mind sort of play being rewarded.

 

However, I think if they seriously want to implement missions of this tactical complexity then they need to go to an invite grouping system.   Maybe similar to the recruit channel but with a clear GUI.  These sort of systems also promote player engagement and can lead to game friends.  There are some down sides to this approach but that is another topic.  Making mission easier should be a last resort.  Mission complexity and challenge is one big factor toward player retention.  ANd let's face it, that is what this is all about... keeping the whales in the casino.

Edited April 6, 2014 by mpastor

[Xylia]

@OP:

 

Try this.

 

Make a video in which you show this equipment screen:

 

Braton (or Strun): NO SERRATION, or damage mods of any sort (because, yanno, nobody is going to have them by that point unless they get carried). Use things like Fast Hands, Ammo Drum, etc because that's what you actually get while playing Mercury and Venus.

 

Lato or AkLato, NO HORNET STRIKE. Just don't. Same as above: Ammo/Magazine/Fire Speed mods only, because that's all you get going through Mercury and Venus.

 

Skana, Cronus, or Orthos. Again, no rare mods or crap like that. Not sure where/when Pressure Point/Killing Blow drops, but if it don't drop on Mercury/Venus, don't use it.

 

On your Loki: Nothing but Redirection, Vitality and powers.

 

Try that and tell us that it is easy.

 

EDIT: Vitality is a common enough drop on Mercury, I suppose we could let you use that, at least.

Edited April 6, 2014 by Xylia

[mpastor]

He did it his way which involves more mods and said it wasn't easy.  I did it solo with an end game LOki and it was not easy.   However, you give me four average or better players with the load out you suggest, let me talk to them for three minutes and develop a plan.  Let us all drop in at the same time, then...

 

I bet it would be easy.

[.Talia.]

@OP:

 

Try this.

 

Make a video in which you show this equipment screen:

 

Braton (or Strun): NO SERRATION, or damage mods of any sort (because, yanno, nobody is going to have them by that point unless they get carried). Use things like Fast Hands, Ammo Drum, etc because that's what you actually get while playing Mercury and Venus.

 

Lato or AkLato, NO HORNET STRIKE. Just don't. Same as above: Ammo/Magazine/Fire Speed mods only, because that's all you get going through Mercury and Venus.

 

Skana, Cronus, or Orthos. Again, no rare mods or crap like that. Not sure where/when Pressure Point/Killing Blow drops, but if it don't drop on Mercury/Venus, don't use it.

 

On your Loki: Nothing but Redirection, Vitality and powers.

 

Try that and tell us that it is easy.

 

EDIT: Vitality is a common enough drop on Mercury, I suppose we could let you use that, at least.

 

This would be unrealistic, because i got far more than that legitimately, everything you see in the video was farmed. I got Vitality, Redirection, Pressure Point on the very first missions i did.

 

As it stands now, IMO, i see Eurasia as a place where some less prepared Newbies will fail the mission a few times, where they will say "Ok, this one is tough. I better join some games and level up my stuff to get some mods." and then try again when they feel more confident.

Edited April 6, 2014 by RexSol

[AcquisCommunitaire]

1)  I don't see people typically taking hours and hours to finish this mission. Typically. If you look above, it took but thirty minutes.  And some people will go through this mission on their first run... like I did with a friend the first time I encountered it while at lower level.

 

2)  I was of course thinking of the dual heat swords which I guess you hadn't noticed.  They were really the only weapons on that guy and for a new player capable of really handing it to the Grineer.  (reseaonable puncture and mod buff ability).  The Gorgon only has a 2 puncture.

 

3)  A person can easily have MR2 by Eurasia.  Easy.  You can accumulate enough affinity in a day of play.  You merely have to wait to take the test.  Start of your third day typically.  Especially if you are buying things like Heat swords, or gaining new weapons through the challenge or birthday gift.  Buying stuff is part of the game.  Most people spend a little money, at least for the games sake I would hope so.

 

4) Do you really think the Gorgon Wraith carrier was the best player there?  Come on your pushing it. He had a good melee set for the mission.  MR2 is not by anyone's measure a veteran player indicator.  Perhaps he restarted like the host... but we dont know that.  He is not even considered a novice by Mastery standards.

 

THe rest of your comment deals with another experiment.  What are you trying to show here?  Perhaps you should try it.  But again please list your thesis.  I don't think its a good test modeling all new players, but I am sure it would have some value.  Maybe as a test for a new player who is completely new to MMO's and FPS.  A player with poor skills and has no interest in spending any money at all.  I am sure EA wants everyone imaginable to play their game.  But catering to this guy, though something they would like to do, is probably not high on their list of priorities (whether they admit or not).

 

BTW, keys can be traded.  It is really easy.. in fact almost typical for people to at least accumulate enough affinity by Eurasia for MR2.  A savvy group of new players might have read about the vault and its wonders.  They may want to trade for a DE key (if DE keys are trade-able) to try it out. Why not.  Its a good move.  Any tainted mod they get will be a good mod.  An organized party of 20+ level frames can easily deal with the infested.  I am not saying this group is typical but it sure would not be below average.  At any rate, they would not be represented in your test and shouldn't they be?  You seem to be perfectly fine including people from the other side of the bell curve.  

 

Finally though, isnt your test really impractical?  I mean where are you going to find 4 people new to this game and set them off on this experiment.  It is certainly orders of magnitude more difficult than one person (be he vet or not) trying to mimic the situation.  Perhaps the near impossibility of the task is one reason you suggested it as the only right method?  

 

1. Perhaps not all, but certainly some people took a few hours. That is undeniable. If it doesn't and everyone merely failed on their first attempt, there wouldn't be this disagreement in the first place.

 

2. I don't know how 'end game' you are as you proclaim, but from what I know, dual heat swords certainly won't be cutting it with large crowds if a potatoed phage can't carry three new players. But in general. facing crowds with a melee without using any ability is not a good idea.

Also, 2 puncture doesn't matter. The fact is that it is capable of dishing out huge damage with elementals. On my gorgon wraith - which I use in this mission to carry - I have placed no forma but I do have a corrosive build and it does around 300 corrosive per shot. Moreover, some of the best DPS weapons aren't even puncture based - see boar prime.

When I carry others, I nearly never use my melee. It's too inefficient. For your information, it is a dakra prime with a normal attack/corrosive build. It is enough to kill all trash mobs in one swing.

 

3. Some people, not most as you seem to indicate, purchase stuff as soon as they play. There are some who don't - note that I said some. DE's business model is microtransactions. If DE wanted everyone to use real money as soon as possible, it would have been a pay to play game.

I don't know anything about this 'challenge' you indicated. Do enlighten me how you could obtain weapons through a challenge.

 

4. From the results, the gorgon wraith player had the highest score. I can't judge whether he is the best player overall, but from what is observed, he is the player with the most kills.

 

5. The rest of the comments are constructive criticism and suggestions to make the initial experiment more accurate. A refining of the original experiment, if you may. As such, it is not a model or hypothesis of itself. It does not require a thesis. It is a statement of the current inaccuracies. If you insist that there is no need to care about new players, then you are denying the very essence of what the OP is trying to do. The OP did the experiment to prove that there is no change required for Eurasia. It does not mean that DE should not care about new players.

 

Even if trading is taken into account, as I mentioned, it would only truly reflect on the new player experience if the player could obtain and play it with other in the same situation as he/she - i.e. satisfies (e) in my last post. The experimenter could sure get carried through T1,2,3 and derelicts with no problem, but that doesn't reflect the new player experience. As I also stated, if that is allowed, then the OP here did a very inefficient job in only obtaining mods. He could have farmed for end game content like boar prime, latron prime, boltor prime etc, and as I'm sure everyone knows, it is dead easy to farm for latron prime these days - the receiver just keeps dropping.

 

As for your suggestion to play the derelicts in a group of 20+ frames (and supposedly with bratons), I have done that, though in a different setting. When I was trying to rank up my braton, I played the derelicts. The reason why i tried to rank up my braton was purely for mastery purposes. It does not reflect my MR or my frame level - I was using a potatoed vauban. If I played the derelicts when the braton was around rank 9-10. It was not potatoed - as it is merely MR fodder. At rank 9-10 the mod space provided was not high enough to fit in my maxed serration, so I had to resort to other mods - namely a fire mod. THe results were disappointing. I could unload an entire clip into an infested enemy (the blue dog-like one) and it would not even kill it. If you propose that a lvl 20+ frame could do it with bratons, think again. As I had no serration, it was the perfect replication of what a new player's braton would be.

From this, it is reasoned that a level 20+ new player team can surely not play the derelicts alone. Also, these new players would not be able to make the keys in the first place.

 

The reaosn why I said that observing 4 new players playing is the only right method is because they:

i) do not have any advance knowledge, thus eliminating the inaccuracy in the date of the OP in regards to advanced knowledge as he identifies himself.

ii) do not play like a veteran, as any new player should

iii) do not possess mods or weapons which are only available or accessible after Eurasia.

If that new player do magically have this enlightenment that there is such a thing as the void (T3 survival let's say) and goes off to farm rhino P and succeeds, then I have nothing to say, but unless a new player could have this magical epiphany, then the effect of advanced knowledge should be minimised.

[mpastor]

1. Perhaps not all, but certainly some people took a few hours. That is undeniable. If it doesn't and everyone merely failed on their first attempt, there wouldn't be this disagreement in the first place.

 

2. I don't know how 'end game' you are as you proclaim, but from what I know, dual heat swords certainly won't be cutting it with large crowds if a potatoed phage can't carry three new players. But in general. facing crowds with a melee without using any ability is not a good idea.

Also, 2 puncture doesn't matter. The fact is that it is capable of dishing out huge damage with elementals. On my gorgon wraith - which I use in this mission to carry - I have placed no forma but I do have a corrosive build and it does around 300 corrosive per shot. Moreover, some of the best DPS weapons aren't even puncture based - see boar prime.

When I carry others, I nearly never use my melee. It's too inefficient. For your information, it is a dakra prime with a normal attack/corrosive build. It is enough to kill all trash mobs in one swing.

 

3. Some people, not most as you seem to indicate, purchase stuff as soon as they play. There are some who don't - note that I said some. DE's business model is microtransactions. If DE wanted everyone to use real money as soon as possible, it would have been a pay to play game.

I don't know anything about this 'challenge' you indicated. Do enlighten me how you could obtain weapons through a challenge.

 

4. From the results, the gorgon wraith player had the highest score. I can't judge whether he is the best player overall, but from what is observed, he is the player with the most kills.

 

5. The rest of the comments are constructive criticism and suggestions to make the initial experiment more accurate. A refining of the original experiment, if you may. As such, it is not a model or hypothesis of itself. It does not require a thesis. It is a statement of the current inaccuracies. If you insist that there is no need to care about new players, then you are denying the very essence of what the OP is trying to do. The OP did the experiment to prove that there is no change required for Eurasia. It does not mean that DE should not care about new players.

 

Even if trading is taken into account, as I mentioned, it would only truly reflect on the new player experience if the player could obtain and play it with other in the same situation as he/she - i.e. satisfies (e) in my last post. The experimenter could sure get carried through T1,2,3 and derelicts with no problem, but that doesn't reflect the new player experience. As I also stated, if that is allowed, then the OP here did a very inefficient job in only obtaining mods. He could have farmed for end game content like boar prime, latron prime, boltor prime etc, and as I'm sure everyone knows, it is dead easy to farm for latron prime these days - the receiver just keeps dropping.

 

As for your suggestion to play the derelicts in a group of 20+ frames (and supposedly with bratons), I have done that, though in a different setting. When I was trying to rank up my braton, I played the derelicts. The reason why i tried to rank up my braton was purely for mastery purposes. It does not reflect my MR or my frame level - I was using a potatoed vauban. If I played the derelicts when the braton was around rank 9-10. It was not potatoed - as it is merely MR fodder. At rank 9-10 the mod space provided was not high enough to fit in my maxed serration, so I had to resort to other mods - namely a fire mod. THe results were disappointing. I could unload an entire clip into an infested enemy (the blue dog-like one) and it would not even kill it. If you propose that a lvl 20+ frame could do it with bratons, think again. As I had no serration, it was the perfect replication of what a new player's braton would be.

From this, it is reasoned that a level 20+ new player team can surely not play the derelicts alone. Also, these new players would not be able to make the keys in the first place.

 

The reaosn why I said that observing 4 new players playing is the only right method is because they:

i) do not have any advance knowledge, thus eliminating the inaccuracy in the date of the OP in regards to advanced knowledge as he identifies himself.

ii) do not play like a veteran, as any new player should

iii) do not possess mods or weapons which are only available or accessible after Eurasia.

If that new player do magically have this enlightenment that there is such a thing as the void (T3 survival let's say) and goes off to farm rhino P and succeeds, then I have nothing to say, but unless a new player could have this magical epiphany, then the effect of advanced knowledge should be minimised.

 1.  I now agree with this modified statement.  Some people had bad luck, some too stubborn to take a step back and reason why failure is occurring so they could modify their approach, and other had other issues.

 

2. Elementals are often not available here, Combined elements is really out of the question without trading.  But certainly this is a good idea if you are M2 at this point trade for a good elemental set.  So that leave base damage.  A 2 puncture does matter in this case.  A weapon with 10 puncture by comparison would deal up to five times the damage.   Puncture is going to get a boost against Grineer heavies (not to mention bypass armor) and a 2 even with this boost and potentially serration would not be a very large number.  Meanwhile on the melee side.  You have at least 100% boost to melee due to mod card plus 10 puncture on your dual heat blades, plus the ability to charge... plus any frame mod (for loci melee can be X2).  This is big deal here.

 

3.  I didnt say or imply most people purchase as soon as they play.  I stated most people purchase stuff.  This later statement means ultimately.  A good numbe of people once they see the game and like it will also realize that grinding for the frame or weapon they want will take a lot of time that can be circumvented by spending 10 to 20 bucks... some people more.  A friend of mine bought ash and the stalker set almost at the start of his play experience.  He reasoned why play other things when you can level the stuff you want to play with.

 

5. You put a lot of words into my mouth.  Claiming that people are over reacting, overly emotional, and overly dramatic about the difficulty of the Eurasia mission is not equivalent to not caring about new players.  Putting words in peoples mouth or misquoting people to fit your point of view is usually a desperate act.  One used when actual evidence is missing.

 

Finally, statements that contain claims like, "it is reasoned that level 20+ new player team can surely not play the derelicts alone," are not facts but merely your opinion.  You are welcome to it but you need to change it to... "I can't imagine that level 20+.......".   For, I certainly can imagine it.  If we ever get a good squad recruitment system, I do believe a whole lot of other people also will imagine and make it happen.

[mpastor]

.....

 

The reaosn why I said that observing 4 new players playing is the only right method is because they:

i) do not have any advance knowledge, thus eliminating the inaccuracy in the date of the OP in regards to advanced knowledge as he identifies himself.

ii) do not play like a veteran, as any new player should

iii) do not possess mods or weapons which are only available or accessible after Eurasia.

If that new player do magically have this enlightenment that there is such a thing as the void (T3 survival let's say) and goes off to farm rhino P and succeeds, then I have nothing to say, but unless a new player could have this magical epiphany, then the effect of advanced knowledge should be minimised.

 

I understand why you make this suggestion.  It is not a bad idea as I implied.  I don't think you understood me, though.  How?  How will you do this?  By you I mean you personally.  Go ahead and implement this idea.  Or at least, tells us how to do it.  Us being the guys here who play the game.  It's like someone in 1943 saying, "You know a lot fewer people would die if we just stopped fighting each other."  Great, tell us something we don't know.  Explain exactly how we are going to achieve this goal.

[liavalenth]

I would like to point out, to anyone who says that Void and OD would be things newbies can do to improve their chances, they can also have anyone who can get OD keys to ferry them right past this mission. If they have the person just take them to a later level everything is solved, so any new player who is capable enough to know of/utilize the OD and Void is not needed for consideration in the question of Eurasia difficulty.

[Lokismokes]

I just finished running more Eurasian missions on this alternate account.  My first involved a single Loki with noob gear porting in with me.  He took off and would not wait.  I aborted after waiting an additional 15 seconds.  My next mission resulted in all newb loki's joining.  As each joined I talked them each into waiting.  They reluctantly did, however, as we started the warframe game crashed for me.... sigh.  

 

My next mission involved me porting into a hvy battle.  A higher level frame was helping two newbs.  I dispatched some mobs and headed for the red tower where i defended and supported adjacent towers.  We won with like 100% to 25%.  

 

My third success here was my very next mission that I immediately started.  Again two new players joined and one by one I convinced them to wait.  When the forth arrived we took off.  The grineer did the best during this mission, however, I scored about 42% of total damage and another scored 43% while the other two got rest.  We won with Grineer at around 50%.

 

So, in summary I have had 3 runs with three different groups and essentially all three were success.  All three combined and aborts, I have spent maybe an hour on this node.  I do not see at all why this mission is a problem.  I think most people get through it on first or second pass.  Some take longer and the really unfortunate may get stuck, but heck, they are not really stuck for they can get help to bypass or complete it if necessary.

 

I thank DE for creating such an interesting mission.  Make more like it please, and pretty please, with sugar on top... give us a better grouping system if you can.

Edited April 6, 2014 by Lokismokes

[Lost_Cartographer]

Why are people so hellbent on keeping this node as an inception?  Why is it such a horrible idea to just push this inception off of Eurasia and creating another side node for it while turning the Eurasia node into, say, a spy mission?  Clearly there ARE problems here, or we wouldn't be making dozens of threads and constantly wasting 5-10 hours of our time to present horrifically flawed data to justify why "it's okay."  Genuine red flag that can't be ignored here: people have picked THIS specific node to $#*(@ about.  It's far from okay.

 

99% of newbies won't have toxic or hornet strike by the time they reach Eurasia.  Without high level help, there's a slim chance they might acquire a serration from Apollodorus... provided they make it to 20 minutes first.  They could get all of the base damage mods if - and ONLY IF - there's an infestation on Venus and they get really lucky when passing through those nodes.

 

So really, "grinding" isn't going to do them any good, since part of the key issue is damage output to begin with, and there isn't really anywhere they can go without being carried where they can get that extra damage output to improve through grinding.  It's a bit of a vicious cycle.  Need more damage to get damage mods.  Need damage mods to do more damage...

 

If Mercury used an abandoned and infested Orokin tower/derelict tileset or an infested grineer galleion with low level infested with later nodes turning into an asteroid/galleon filled with Grineer half way through (justifying Vor's presence,) the new player experience might be different.   They would technically have access to the necessary base damage mods, despite still being at a very low drop rate.  Frankly, starting off against infested would be ideal, considering the MK1's and Lato's primary damage output values.  The rushing enemies would even encourage melee, and with 2.0, that might become a real hook for Warframe, not an afterthought.

Edited April 6, 2014 by Littleman88

[Deristel]

@rexsol

Let me clarify.. i'm not speaking with hate,but i get &!$$ed off pretty quickly when i suspect that someone is trying to get his point proven by playing dumb.

 

Let's see if i can find an example..mh.. diablo 2.

Let's say you have to kill the first boss (Andariel).Too hard for you.So you join a friend game and you start doing mephisto run (act 3).Now in that game the item had stats requirement and stuff,but bear with me,it's kinda hard to find a mmorpg without it and none of them came to my mind.
So,you do mephisto run,you drop some items that are stronger (you're in act 3 after all) you equip them,and go back to act 1 to kill your first boss.
Would this be something you usually do in a mmorpg?I don't think so.There's a story progression.We should look at warframe the same way.
In diablo 2 with the right planning and equipment you found along the road,you're able to kill your first boss.Even if it's hard.But it's doable.

Going to odd or void to farm credits and core (rank 3 core minimum to rank 5 with a good necro,while you would usually find rank1 core,and pretty rarely,till earth) is the same that going to act 3 to kill an act 1 boss.

To me,it's plain stupid to go to a end game mission to do a early stage one.Also because,even if player knew that odd is avaiable to them,they would expect it to be too much to handle for them,or for the party to have a requirement like most mmorpg (you don't try to join a diablo run when you're level 10 with act 1 equipment,right?).

The same goes here.I knew odd existed when i played,and even if i suck at fps i have the habit to gather as much data as i can when i start a game.

I never would have tought that all you needed to do in a odd was to sit on a pillar and let the other do the job.Same goes for void.Thinking to be a leech and stay behind and collect the spoils of the battle then just rush at extraction when everything was done it's not the way i would ever dream of playing a game.

I do get your point,really.New player can do odd.But new player can also ask for a taxi,or for someone to help them.

We're speaking of the 3rd planet.They shouldn't go to recruit or general asking for help or taxi,unless they wanted to purposely skip the game and rush to end content.What you did in a mmorpg set up is called "Powerleveling".The act of getting carried by others to level up-equip your char faster.(And it's kind of despised too,but depends on the game).

While this is doable,it should NOT BE REQUIRED to pass a node like eurasia.That's the whole issue.
Your test proved that if you're willing to ruin your game expirience or skip the node or ask for help you can get past that node.
Your test proved that unless "powerleveled" your chanches to pass that node with a "legit" party and equipment are slim,since you opted for a side tracking on odd and void.Moreover,we shouldn't expect that novice player knows odd and void.Sure,they may use google or wiki,but that's extra work that usually online gamers are accustomed to.Not casual gamer.Casual gamer will just rush past nodes till getting to eurasia.And online gamers even if knew about odd and void would probably drop the things because it would be common sense to think it's to early for them to do that (Also because once you get to odd and void,basically your game ends there,nothing more to do aside farming).

 

TL,DR it's doable,but it is not how it should be done.

 

OFF Topic:What happened to the other topic?it disappeared without any notice:<

Edited April 6, 2014 by Deristel