Rhino Prime Vs Frost Prime - Prime Unbalance

[Fl4m3Ph03n1x]

This post is a follow up to this video made by Potato Powered:

 

If you had to choose between Rhino Prime or Frost prime, which one would you choose?

 

Right now, Rhino Prime without any question.

Before the huge *NERF* on Frost (result of community feedback, may I remind you), Frost was an overall acceptable frame. All his other abilities were lacking in both damage and utility, but his snow globe was enough to make it worth your time because he was the best / only frame strong enough to endure long defenses on corpus and grinner.

Now, his abilities deal more damage, and are slightly more useful, but the frame has lost its power and usefulness when compared to all the others. Frost was never supposed to deal damage. If you want to deal damage, pick Nova, Saryn or even Ember.

 

Frost was useful because of his utility, and now he is complete crap - just another frame who can not survive wave 40 minions.

 

His first skill is a poor single target CC. In a world where you are only attacked by crowds of enemies, one has to question its effectiveness. And lets not forget the fact that if you attack a frozen target with your ranged weapon, you lose the freeze buff.

 

Ice Wave completely overlaps with Avalanche and it is weaker / worst in every other sense - deals less damage, has a smaller area and so on.

 

Ice Globe now dies instantly VS level 30 enemies.

 

Avalanche is a poor ability. Acceptable damage with a large area and small CC at best.

 

For a frame *originally designed as a supportive tank*, frost's abilities do not help him tank and his key supportive abilitie (Ice Globe) is now far too weak o be of any use.

 

If you, as a player, think that Frost is now better than he was, then you should simply uninstall warframe because you clearly have no idea on how the game works. , then you should know that having a more powerful Snowglobe (as it was before) and Avalanche are not synonyms of having less fun.

Rhino prime on the other hand, was also nerfed pretty bad. His iron skin went down from being a 30 seconds invulnerability free pass, to being damage caped (one should question this changes because now we have trinity that does the same, but FOR THE WHOLE TEAM). Still, Rhino suffered several remakes, and is a good / viable frame from low to end game. His abilities scale well (except for iron skin) because of their utility.

Charge is a cheap and good ability to move fast and get out of trouble. Roar boosts team damage up to 114.5% and Stomp is critical in slowing down bosses and mobs  when you are in trouble.

Furthermore, Rhino prime is also faster than Frost Prime, and the the right helms equipped, he can be one of the fastest frames in the game.

So, it really does not matter if you are a beginner or and end player, the way I see it, Rhino is clearly the choice to make.

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So, what now?
The way I see it, there are two main ways to address this problem:

 - Make Frost Stronger

 - Make Frost prime stronger

 

In the first option, I believe that the answer is simple: the changes that the devs made are not enough to make frost prime viable, they need to revert him back to his original state. If such is not an option, then they should remove useless abilities (like Freeze, which is useless, or Ice Wave which completely overlaps with Avalanche and it is weaker / worst in every other sense) and give him more utility.

For the second option, I suggest making Frost prime stronger. One could give him more HP, or Energy, or Power strength. Combined with the helmets it would make frost a powerful frame. This does have a very strong shortcomming though, since the special helms are now confirmed to be discontinued... Another option would be to simply make frost prime faster as well... 

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Any thoughts?

Edited April 4, 2014 by Fl4m3Ph03n1x

[letir]

If you, as a player, think that Frost is now better than he was, then you should simply uninstall warframe because you clearly have no idea on how the game works.

Yes, sir!

[Jin_Kazama]

Frost prime needs an overhaul in my opinion, for the reasons you mentioned, and his visual appearance, for starters the only peice of gold thats visible on him properly is his helmet, No amazing orokin decals around his body like Ember/Rhino, even excalibur has shiny arms xD

And as you mentioned he has lost his main source of CC, which angers me greatly.

 

I dont see why DE like to Buff 1 abilities (Like fireball and freeze)

This game is mostly about crowd fights, why would you want to freeze or fireball an enemy when you could shoot em? or knock em down? Or when melee 2.0 comes out, karate chop them butts?

[Kaethill]

I would any day chose Frost overRhino... even in the prime state. I like the desgin of frosts prime. And the powers better to. His abillities are easily the perfect ones yet. Although i had to switch it up abit after Nerf. I still consider Frost better than Rhino, and another thing is. Rhino is a tank..... So unless you think everyone would chose Rhino over Fx. Frost (who is more of a battlemage) you're making assumtions. I will never discard frost over Rhino. Don't get me wrong here. I like both Frames, they play well together and they are good. But if you leave a frame behind due to a Nerf? Thats not fair really.

[billthebetta]

Ever since some frames have been getting special attributes(Zeph and RhinoP in mind) I've noticed people wanting each frame to have some sort of special perk that would make each frame more unique. e.g. Frost resists ice hazards naturally, Ember resists fire damage.

However, since RhinoP got his boost, there's been more support for Primes to have better stats compared to the base frame. So perhaps FrostP, EmberP, and MagP(and any following Prime) might get some sort of stat boost.

I get that this^ is a bit OT, so here's my 2 cents on Frost vs. Rhino.

Simply put, Frost doesn't fit his role enough. When I got him an age and a half ago, I was expecting a defensive(which I got) caster with more CC than damage. As it is, Frost's 1, 2 and 4 are used more for damage than anything else. Just comparing Avalanche to Stomp, it would more sense if the amount of CC that Stomp delivers would also be delivered by Avalanche.

Basically: Rhino equals Offensive Tank: So more damage, less CC.

Frost equals Support Tank: So less damage, more CC.

It's just strange to me that the support class does less utility than the attack tank.

[Jin_Kazama]

*Sadroth*

-snip-

 

To respond to the first half of your text, i think the problem is that as DE continue to make Warframes/Primes, they have ideas, (like as you mentioned, giving Warframes Abilites and hidden perks)

But as they refuse to give any insight on the previous Warframes and if they're gonna get changed, they just get left in the dust.

In regards to the nerfs DE has been getting rid of anything that gives Tenno a get out of jail free card.

Such as Rhinos invulnerability which enabled people to get to Really high levels of defence.

Embers 2 which let her be up to 91% more tanky whilst doing damage.

And now Frost who could put up his frost shield.

I understand that they're trying to balance out abilities to make Warframes have more uses other than one ability, and i understand that, but unless sufficient CC is given, then all thats gonna happen is people are gonna just spam Mag and bloomin Nova.

Edited April 4, 2014 by Jin_Kazama

[Monolake]

Frost had his place in the game, he was good in one role. Not anymore.  

 

Rhino is good at everything, making lots of other frames have no place in the game. If you have limited slots of course you have Rhino and sell Frost. 

[Kaethill]

Frost had his place in the game, he was good in one role. Not anymore.  

 

Rhino is good at everything, making lots of other frames have no place in the game. If you have limited slots of course you have Rhino and sell Frost.

I Will forever disagree

[Symbiont71]

I would any day chose Frost overRhino... even in the prime state. I like the desgin of frosts prime. And the powers better to. His abillities are easily the perfect ones yet. Although i had to switch it up abit after Nerf. I still consider Frost better than Rhino, and another thing is. Rhino is a tank..... So unless you think everyone would chose Rhino over Fx. Frost (who is more of a battlemage) you're making assumtions. I will never discard frost over Rhino. Don't get me wrong here. I like both Frames, they play well together and they are good. But if you leave a frame behind due to a Nerf? Thats not fair really.

 

How are frost's powers better than rhino's? You gave no arguments supporting your claim so i'm really curious. 

[Kaethill]

How are frost's powers better than rhino's? You gave no arguments supporting your claim so i'm really curious.

This is all my opinion on the fact that OP thinks that all would chose Rhino over Frost, which I disagree with. In my opinion I think they work perfectly. I don't mean they are, but they feel that way.

[kaboomonme]

Hmm, I'll uninstall my game after work then. Can't help it, I really like how Frost stands at the moment.

[Symbiont71]

This is all my opinion on the fact that OP thinks that all would chose Rhino over Frost, which I disagree with. In my opinion I think they work perfectly. I don't mean they are, but they feel that way.

 

The OP brings quite strong arguments in play as why he thinks that atm rhino is more beneficial to a party than frost.

You must see things differently in order to disagree and i only encourage you to share your vision because that's how constructive feedback works.

 

In your opinion, what makes frost's powers better than rhino's? An opinion is worth nothing if you don't bring arguments.

 

(Just to clear this up: just because a warframe fits someone's style, doesn't make it better. It makes it better for him, but not overall. We try to be as objective as we can)

Edited April 4, 2014 by Symbiont71

[Fl4m3Ph03n1x]

In your opinion, what makes frost's powers better than rhino's? An opinion is worth nothing if you don't bring arguments.

Amen !

 

In regards to the nerfs DE has been getting rid of anything that gives Tenno a get out of jail free card.

Such as Rhinos invulnerability which enabled people to get to Really high levels of defence.

 

 

Allow to answer that with my original post:

 

Rhino prime on the other hand, was also nerfed pretty bad. His iron skin went down from being a 30 seconds invulnerability free pass, to being damage caped (one should question this changes because now we have trinity that does the same, but *FOR THE WHOLE TEAM*).

[HAYABU5A]

Give Frost's Avalanche its AOE freeze duration back.

 

He NEEDS it.

[Fl4m3Ph03n1x]

How do I get a representative opinion of the community and then show it to the devs?  Are there any ideas?

[Darkjackal_2031]

I had warframe since nearly its beginning. The first frame I ever got was frost. He was fantastic at defense, amazing CC, low damage, perfect for me. I honestly have no idea why people wanted him changed-he was perfect the way he was. I was absolutely heartbroken. Why would they nerf the one skill everyone uses and buff the skills people rarely used? At any rate, frost is now a dusty old carcass on my shelf, and I have an excuse to level up my Vauban.

Edited April 4, 2014 by Darkjackal_2031

[Fl4m3Ph03n1x]

Find the mega-topics concerning Avalanche and Snowglobe changes, you'll find the majority of the community heavily against the changes that were made (because they were just plain awful and made Frost utterly unplayable)

Where can I find these threads? In which forums are they? How long are they?

[Katotsu]

The changes they made to Frost completely support the way I play Frost.  Clearly I shouldn't play the game because I disagree with you.  I didn't know you're the mind behind this whole game.

[(PSN)billy-d-squid]

Where can I find these threads? In which forums are they? How long are they?

 

It's a closely guarded secret among the forum goers, spoken of in hushed whispers for fear that it would give answers to questions people are too afraid to ask....

 

*whispers* "Use the search function"

[Fl4m3Ph03n1x]

The changes they made to Frost completely support the way I play Frost.  Clearly I shouldn't play the game because I disagree with you.  I didn't know you're the mind behind this whole game.

Clearly you should start offering arguments instead of acting all offended like a 13-year old. We are trying to be objective here remember?

If you have arguments that say Frost is now better than it was, show them. If you see flaws in my arguments, point them. Otherwise, GTFO.

Edited April 4, 2014 by Fl4m3Ph03n1x

[Symbiont71]

The changes they made to Frost completely support the way I play Frost.  Clearly I shouldn't play the game because I disagree with you.  I didn't know you're the mind behind this whole game.

 

You got it wrong. He said  "anyone who thinks Frost is better now than he was back then", strictly being objective. You are being subjective and like i said above: just because a warframe fits one's playstyle, doesn't make it better overall, it only makes it better for that particular user.

 

 

EDIT: some people are easily offended and they fail to see the bigger picture most of the time.

Edited April 4, 2014 by Symbiont71

[Monolake]

How are frost's powers better than rhino's? You gave no arguments supporting your claim so i'm really curious. 

 

 

This is all my opinion on the fact that OP thinks that all would chose Rhino over Frost, which I disagree with. In my opinion I think they work perfectly. I don't mean they are, but they feel that way.

 

Frost is still better than Rhino for defence more so at mid levels, and you can even solo T3  20 waves with weak weapons with Frost, Rhino wouldnt keep everyone of the pod, unless he has strong weapons. But overall Rhino is much more versatile.  And if you want to play higher levels (35+) where Globe melts pretty fast, other CC frames are better, like Excalibur or Nyx. If only DE didn't ruin the Avalanche...

Edited April 4, 2014 by Monolake

[kaboomonme]

Alright, since nobody else is going to bother :


Let's just say I LOVE Frost the way he is now. He is the perfect balance of support and defense now, and I love using him. 

"B-but he was already perfect before! Why did they have to nerf him?"

Perfect in the sense that everyone takes off all their other skills (Save for Avalanche for some) just to make more space to upgrade Snowglobe? And then stack ungodly amounts of duration? Yeah, that's the book-definition of perfect.

"He fulfilled his roles perfectly! He's a defensive frame thus Snowglobe does what it says : Defense! Why would you want it to be otherwise? You're stupid and you should feel bad."

Yes, having a focus purely on Snowglobe and having no other viable abilities was FINE, but it made Frost a complete turn-off for some. You press 3 as and when you have energy, wait for the globe to run out, then press 3 again. Not exactly the perfect definition of "fun" for a good deal of us.

The reason I like the current Frost is because you have OPTIONS. When there are enemies attempting to mow you down, your option isn't always "Put up Snowglobe", "Put up Snowglobe" and... guess what? "Put up Snowglobe."

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Freeze : is honestly quite lackluster still, but it is still a great option to shut down a single-target while saving up your energy.

Ice wave : Now with the 100% Ice proc and the nice chunk of damage, you can actually choose this as a decent CC skill! It costs less than Snowglobe, it softens up enemies a bit, it affects enemies in a nice, straight line, rewarding good placement. I find myself using this skill a lot now, compared to last time, when I didn't even have it equipped 80% of the time.

The current snowglobe now, as it stands, is OBVIOUSLY weaker than the old snowglobe (or rather, can ACTUALLY take damage now). But I love about it is how it engages the player.


Snowglobe : Now, you actually have to THINK about the situation before putting down your Snowglobe. Pretty neat huh? When you don't need it, throwing it down will punish you by giving it a tiny amount of health. But putting it down at the right time rewards you with a healthy Snowglobe that can take a good beating before going down, now to mention the old slow CC is still intact. 

And now that it is affected by Armor as well, you can have choices to how you build Frost! More customization!


Avalanche : Self-explanatory area nuke. Still feels a little uncreative, I'm sure DE could have come up with something better.



I literally don't see what is bad about this decision. Sure, it makes Frost not have an invincible Snowglobe, but it makes him a fun, dynamic Warframe to play. It doesn't make him utterly unplayable, it makes him FUN TO PLAY. I don't see how giving players fun is contradicting a Warframe's design.


Again, this is my opinion. There will always be people that will call us "dumb" for liking fun and not liking "getting further in defense", but I'd rather put in effort for a reward, no? That's what a game is. Arguably pushing a single button every once-in-a-while is also considered a game, but then I'd rather play Nova then. At least when I press 4, I get some pretty lighting effects to reward my ever-so-valiant button press.

Yes, you can compare Frost to a lot of other frames out there, but that's an issue with the core gameplay itself. I'd love it if all the frames were tweaked to encourage more player engagement : Slash Dash letting you chain between targets for example. This is all purely wishful thinking of course, but for now, I feel that Frost's change is a step in the right direction, and I absolutely love it.

TL:DR New Frost abilities reward player engagement and encourages customization.
            It makes him slightly less effective, but it means you'll actually need to use a bit of brainpower to play.




I shall abstain from discussing Rhino, as I honestly stay away from using him most of the time. We don't need more than 1 Rhino in any team anyways.

 

[Kaethill]

The OP brings quite strong arguments in play as why he thinks that atm rhino is more beneficial to a party than frost.

You must see things differently in order to disagree and i only encourage you to share your vision because that's how constructive feedback works.

 

In your opinion, what makes frost's powers better than rhino's? An opinion is worth nothing if you don't bring arguments.

 

(Just to clear this up: just because a warframe fits someone's style, doesn't make it better. It makes it better for him, but not overall. We try to be as objective as we can)

If you start by actually READING my post you would see that i wrote "So unless you think everyone would chose Rhino over Fx. Frost (who is more of a battlemage) you're making assumtions." I was pointing out that he was saying everyone would chose Rhino over Frost which like i said is Wrong -.-

 

And yes that was written weired EDIT: So when you're saying that everyone would chose Rhino over Fx Frost (who is more of a battlemage) you're making assumtions.

Edited April 4, 2014 by Sadroth

[kaboomonme]

 

Clearly you should start offering arguments instead of acting all offended like a 13-year old. We are trying to be objective here remember?

If you have arguments that say Frost is now better than it was, show them. If you see flaws in my arguments, point them. Otherwise, GTFO.

Actually, you say here that you are trying to be objective, but in your original post, you basically told everyone that if they had a different opinion, they should uninstall the game.

I can more than understand why you are getting responses like these to the thread.