Badlands Needs Higher Level Range

[notionphil]

/U13 hypemode off, sorry

 

Nearly everything presented in devstream was jaw-dropping. Seriously amazing work DE. The only exception was that Badlands was tied to the existing system map, and level ranges.

 

Badlands was initially presented to players as endgame content. How can endgame content be the same level as the systems?

 

While I can see how you might argue that it's still endgame because it provides clans with a long-term resource gathering metagame, it may do essentially nothing for the 95% of us who aren't leading a clan.

 

We haven't seen the actual gameplay, and I'll give the benefit of the doubt that there are a few twists and turns in there such as factional allied defenders, traps and maybe a nice core to destroy or something of that nature. Or at least there will be eventually...*glare*. This can all tie in to clan tower upgrades etc, which is lovely.

 

Except the fact that they are all level 10-30, bc they tie to system level.

 

For the average rank 10+ player, loaded to the gills with any of the 10+ weapons with nearly unchecked power, and quasi-invincible frames...none of that will provide new gameplay, or a reason to log in.

 

How & Why to Fix Badlands

 

Badlands is your first foray into endgame. It needs instances at a very high level range, each about 2x higher than its corresponding system. It needs multiple mission types, which hopefully it has - not just an exterm.

 

Is high level Badlands a comprehensive solution for WF's endgame? Of course not - but its a step in the right direction. We all know enemy depth will have to eventually expand. However, for now, Badlands is another plank on a bridge to the new Warframe 2.0 you so proudly and sincerely spoke about at the start of the year.

 

Please don't lose sight of why you created Badlands - to provide appropriate content for players who have stuck with you and grown to love the game.

Edited April 4, 2014 by notionphil

[KTribute]

Let's just face the fact that no amount of buffed enemies will give us a challenge, it just blatantly shows what frames are more suited to higher tier content.

 

What we really need is difficult enemies, not scaled enemies. And not difficult in the Napalm unavoidable blast difficult, I'm talking ones with timing, and such. Hopefully melee 2.0 brings to this, but the entire leveling system of scaling enemies is not going to be an endgame challenge for us. We will get bigger guns for their bigger amount of armor.

[notionphil]

Let's just face the fact that no amount of buffed enemies will give us a challenge, it just blatantly shows what frames are more suited to higher tier content.

 

What we really need is difficult enemies, not scaled enemies. And not difficult in the Napalm unavoidable blast difficult, I'm talking ones with timing, and such. Hopefully melee 2.0 brings to this, but the entire leveling system of scaling enemies is not going to be an endgame challenge for us. We will get bigger guns for their bigger amount of armor.

 

This is a true statement, and Enemies 2.0 can be next. I've written numerous threads on that topic.

 

one example - Where Are The Interesting Enemies?

 

However, Badlands being endgame leveled is a stopgap fix which is needed, and can issue a temporary challenge to veterans while DE develops a system for actual enemy challenge.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Supposedly based on previous comments by the devs (that were not mentioned today), you can build and hire defenses for your rails, so maybe they won't be numerically powerful but will actually afford decent challenge.  I doubt it, but I can always hope.

 

If they turn out to not have anything useful in the way of defenses (and honestly, what's the point of defenses if they can't actually stop attackers?), then Badlands will just turn into another form of invasion because there will be zero incentive to actually build defenses.    If there are some legitimate threats that you can stick in them though, I'd be all for that.  People just aren't going to pay to put in a turret that doesn't actually stop anyone.

 

On the plus side, this natural implication suggests that maybe there will be a legitimate chance of failure when it comes to these assault missions.  Chance of failure due to unskilled play is a critical element that is missing from Warframe at the moment.

Edited April 4, 2014 by Volt_Cruelerz

[(PSN)billy-d-squid]

Ha, yeah... because the current game isn't plagued with issues around balance and frame competitiveness already, adding x2 lvl range won't cause any problems at all, right? Right? 

 

What you'll see is hordes of Novas and Rhino's along with some Vauban, Nyx, Loki and maybe Ember Prime and Zephyr; depending on the lvl. That and a mass of Galantines, Orthos Primes, Somas, Latron Primes, Pentas and Brakks, Bronco Primes, etc. being used. 

 

So we'll have this going on:

 

"Don't have those things? "Well sucks to be you" So unless you are a veteran with a full blown arsenal allowing you to solo T3 and Derelict with your eyes closed, get lost. End game isn't for you "noob""

 

DE also said that the "end game" is balanced around lvl 35-45, hence Pluto and T3 void, they don't get higher than lvl 50, unless you're doing endless missions.

Edited April 4, 2014 by (PS4)billy-d-squid

[notionphil]

Ha, yeah... because the current game isn't plagued with issues around balance and frame competitiveness already, adding x2 lvl range won't cause any problems at all, right? Right? 

 

What you'll see is hordes of Novas and Rhino's along with some Vauban, Nyx, Loki and maybe Ember Prime and Zephyr; depending on the lvl. That and a mass of Galantines, Orthos Primes, Somas, Latron Primes, Pentas and Brakks, Bronco Primes, etc. being used. 

 

So we'll have this going on:

 

"Don't have those things? "Well sucks to be you" So unless you are a veteran with a full blown arsenal allowing you to solo T3 and Derelict with your eyes closed, get lost. End game isn't for you "noob""

 

DE also said that the "end game" is balanced around lvl 35-45, hence Pluto and T3 void, they don't get higher than lvl 50, unless you're doing endless missions.

 

Endgame is by definition only for veteran players. That is not elitism or an insult, it's just what Endgame means.

 

Endgame is literally only for players who have already built an arsenal of the game's most powerful equipment.

 

You have to understand, once you have the equipment, there's nothing else to do with it. Everything in the game is now too easy.

 

DE said that current game was balanced around that level, not that their endgame would be. I can assure you, if they said they'd never be making content for a higher level range, all the vets would have left long ago.

[notionphil]

Supposedly based on previous comments by the devs (that were not mentioned today), you can build and hire defenses for your rails, so maybe they won't be numerically powerful but will actually afford decent challenge.  I doubt it, but I can always hope.

 

If they turn out to not have anything useful in the way of defenses (and honestly, what's the point of defenses if they can't actually stop attackers?), then Badlands will just turn into another form of invasion because there will be zero incentive to actually build defenses.    If there are some legitimate threats that you can stick in them though, I'd be all for that.  People just aren't going to pay to put in a turret that doesn't actually stop anyone.

 

On the plus side, this natural implication suggests that maybe there will be a legitimate chance of failure when it comes to these assault missions.  Chance of failure due to unskilled play is a critical element that is missing from Warframe at the moment.

 

Due to the current mechanics, numerical challenge is the primary vector of challenge in WF. Obviously neither of us want that - but right now that's how it is.

 

We'll see whats actually inside of badlands on Wed, but due to the mechanics, it simply can't be challenging to a Rank 10 player AND a Rank 1 player at the same time.

 

The game just doesn't work like that.

Edited April 4, 2014 by notionphil

[Mythblaze]

Endgame is by definition only for veteran players. That is not elitism or an insult, it's just what Endgame means.

 

Endgame is literally only for players who have already built an arsenal of the game's most powerful equipment.

 

You have to understand, once you have the equipment, there's nothing else to do with it. Everything in the game is now too easy.

 

DE said that current game was balanced around that level, not that their endgame would be. I can assure you, if they said they'd never be making content for a higher level range, all the vets would have left long ago.

I would of left and never would of spent a dime on the game. Rather I purchased the Master founder package, spent money on plat a few time and purchased the Stomp Prime access pack. If we do not get a end game, I know I will quit Warframe. This is coming from a person that has been here since Jan 2013. 

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Due to the current mechanics, numerical challenge is the primary vector of challenge in WF. Obviously neither of us want that - but right now that's how it is.

 

We'll see whats actually inside of badlands on Wed, but due to the mechanics, it simply can't be challenging to a Rank 10 player AND a Rank 1 player at the same time.

 

The game just doesn't work like that.

Technically it could if every enemy was a level 999999999999 roller ;)

 

But yes, obviously I see your point.  The whole point of the badlands is better farming.  I just see all sorts of stuff that can/will go wrong with that.

[LazyKnight]

Except the fact that they are all level 10-30, bc they tie to system level.

The rate NPC gain weapon damage is too high, and if they were to make a high level zone they would have to cap damage scaling at level 40. I am pretty sure the their damage doubles every 10 levels. If they just gave us level +50 NPC with their current damage growth it would just funnel people into using Trinity (that is an off-topic issue that ruins end-game challenge).

 

The level 30-40 ice leader can melt someone in a second. All DE would have to do is have a 2x-4x health modifier on the NPC to make them seriously dangerous.

Edited April 4, 2014 by LazyKnight

[notionphil]

Technically it could if every enemy was a level 999999999999 roller ;)

 

But yes, obviously I see your point.  The whole point of the badlands is better farming.  I just see all sorts of stuff that can/will go wrong with that.

 

That's a great hypothetical example, but a group of rank 10's could still Bastille and Absorb the heck out of 999999999s.

 

:P

 

 

The rate NPC gain weapon damage is too high, and if they were to make a high level zone they would have to cap damage scaling at level 40. I am pretty sure the their damage doubles every 10 levels. If they just gave us level +50 NPC with their current damage growth it would just funnel people into using Trinity (that is an off-topic issue that ruins end-game challenge).

 

The level 30-40 ice leader can melt someone in a second. All DE would have to do is have a 2x-4x health modifier on the NPC to make them seriously dangerous.

 

Yeah I'm not a huge fan of the growth/scale curve either.

 

But the only thing worse than a bad scale curve is having to play 30 min in a pickup group...to reach a bad scale curve.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

That's a great hypothetical example, but a group of rank 10's could still Bastille and Absorb the heck out of 999999999s.

 

:P

We'll just have to make sure they've got Stalker-style immunity then.

 

Back on topic...  If all else fails, we can give Badlands a 10 level bump.

[LazyKnight]

Yeah I'm not a huge fan of the growth/scale curve either.

 

But the only thing worse than a bad scale curve is having to play 30 min in a pickup group...to reach a bad scale curve.

I agree, It should start at a very high level range. My only point was about their damage scaling and that it should be capped. Player are not hard to kill unless they are using powers.

 

I would rather DE cap their damage at the level 40 range and just use a global health modifier and/or resistance increase for the NPC. There are ways to make the NPC very durable with out causing the unavoidable instant player death. The leader already have a damage resistance rating that I am sure they could adapt for badlands.

Edited April 4, 2014 by LazyKnight

[(PSN)billy-d-squid]

Endgame is by definition only for veteran players. That is not elitism or an insult, it's just what Endgame means.

 

Endgame is literally only for players who have already built an arsenal of the game's most powerful equipment.

 

You have to understand, once you have the equipment, there's nothing else to do with it. Everything in the game is now too easy.

 

DE said that current game was balanced around that level, not that their endgame would be. I can assure you, if they said they'd never be making content for a higher level range, all the vets would have left long ago.

 

Considering you are only able to use a handful of weapon and frames out of how many, due to the current damage tables and balancing (or lack there of) this isn't even about Veterans and new players exclusively, doubling up on the lvl when the most frame powers are pointless at lvl 40 is going to lead to the preponderance of the OP or most powerful frames to the exclusion of all others.

 

I don't see that as a good thing.

 

And when clans also contain new players who have access to this, it's not going to be even workable when only the players with huge lvls of equipment and weapons can play through in a team. Let alone carry the new players through a mission.

 

I'm certainly not a new player, having 10+ frames maxed and  potato'd, all the Primes bar Rhino, and a good stack of prime weapons built already. I solo'd my way to Pluto, but I realise that new players being locked into the star map and only the best few in each clan are going to be able to actually engage in these missions successfully, isn't a recipe for success. leveling with the area they've built star rail (whatever) on actually lets those of us with clans populated by veterans fight it out on the hardest planets. Smaller clans can stick to the inner planets until they grow in size or form their own alliance. 

 

What you're suggesting creates a situation where any Clan which isn't populated with Veterans is going to get roflstomped when they even try to attack another clan. 

[WhisperByte]

The way I understood those low levels are ONLY for contesting solar rails. What I mean is that the missions that we will be able to access through those rails will actually be higher level.

[notionphil]

Considering you are only able to use a handful of weapon and frames out of how many, due to the current damage tables and balancing (or lack there of) this isn't even about Veterans and new players exclusively, doubling up on the lvl when the most frame powers are pointless at lvl 40 is going to lead to the preponderance of the OP or most powerful frames to the exclusion of all others.

 

I don't see that as a good thing.

 

And when clans also contain new players who have access to this, it's not going to be even workable when only the players with huge lvls of equipment and weapons can play through in a team. Let alone carry the new players through a mission.

 

I'm certainly not a new player, having 10+ frames maxed and  potato'd, all the Primes bar Rhino, and a good stack of prime weapons built already. I solo'd my way to Pluto, but I realise that new players being locked into the star map and only the best few in each clan are going to be able to actually engage in these missions successfully, isn't a recipe for success. leveling with the area they've built star rail (whatever) on actually lets those of us with clans populated by veterans fight it out on the hardest planets. Smaller clans can stick to the inner planets until they grow in size or form their own alliance. 

 

What you're suggesting creates a situation where any Clan which isn't populated with Veterans is going to get roflstomped when they even try to attack another clan. 

 

If you don't have veterans in your clan, you shouldn't be participating in an Endgame war.

 

Again, I agree with your points about frame balance etc - that is a separate issue. Endgame content needs to be released even if its not perfectly balanced - balance will come later.

 

You are not getting my point that once you keep playing, and get all the remainder of the Primes, and forma your weapons etc...you will have absolutely no reason to log in besides to just run around and decimate everything with a mere glance. That is why endgame needs to exist.

 

The fact that endgame will not be accessible to newer players is intentional....they will be able to participate when they are at endgame stage. Newer players already have plenty to do, IE: gather all of the equipment that veterans already have.

 

Why DE decided to attach it to resource gathering is beyond me - that's an issue. New players definitely dont need to be shut off from resource gathering.

[Thelonious]

Badlands was initially presented to players as endgame content. 

 

Hmm, yes and no. Let me find the original post presentating the idea, where Steve explained his view.

 

 

 

•    "That's not End Game, jerkface!" End Game is ethereal and hand-wavy. For me it's a combination of 'what happens when you hit level cap. What things exist that add systemic replay?’

 

Emphasis on the systemic replay. 

 

Badlands IS end-game anyway, but not the kind you play with your 5-forma'd gear, but with your fully fonctional, organized and consolidated clan, and that takes just as much time to create as leveling your own gear.

And now that Alliances become one of the pillars of the concept, you'd better make sure your clan is strong enough. 

 

I for one, am glad the game stops revolving so much around gear, and starts focusing around player interactions.

 

TL;DR: Not gear end-game, clan end-game. End-game anyway.

Edited April 4, 2014 by Thelonious

[notionphil]

Hmm, yes and no. Let me find the original post presentating the idea, where Steve explained his view.

Emphasis on the systemic replay.

Badlands IS end-game anyway, but not the kind you play with your 5-forma'd gear, but with your fully fonctional, organized and consolidated clan, and that takes just as much time to create as leveling your own gear.

And now that Alliances become one of the pillars of the concept, you'd better make sure your clan is strong enough.

I for one, am glad the game stops revolving so much around gear, and starts focusing around player interactions.

TL;DR: Not gear end-game, clan end-game. End-game anyway.

That's fine except the very quote you mention references "when you hit level cap".

What does this presentation of Badlands have to do with hitting level cap in your opinion? Seems just as well positioned for a rank 3 Tenno as a rank 15. Possibly better for the rank 3, as he will need the rare mats more.

Also, why would you want the endgame to "stop revolving around gear"? The entire game is a gear hunt!

That's like getting to the last level in super Mario and it turns from a platformer about collecting coins into an on rails shooter with RPG elements. "Gee, what did I perfect my jumping skills for?"

Edited April 5, 2014 by notionphil

[notionphil]

The way I understood those low levels are ONLY for contesting solar rails. What I mean is that the missions that we will be able to access through those rails will actually be higher level.

I truly hope you are correct. However, I am betting those missions themselves ARE badlands. And solar rails are simply the method of accessing or contesting those nodes.

[Varzy]

Previous Dev Streams have said that the Badlands consist of higher level enemies, with higher resource/mod generation as an incentive. The badlands exist both for better farming and for higher challenge.

 

I just hope DE remember that they said that, aha

[Thelonious]

That's fine except the very quote you mention references "when you hit level cap".

What does this presentation of Badlands have to do with hitting level cap in your opinion? Seems just as well positioned for a rank 3 Tenno as a rank 15. Possibly better for the rank 3, as he will need the rare mats more.

Also, why would you want the endgame to "stop revolving around gear"? The entire game is a gear hunt!

That's like getting to the last level in super Mario and it turns from a platformer about collecting coins into an on rails shooter with RPG elements. "Gee, what did I perfect my jumping skills for?"

 

Obviously the reference to level cap applies more to the Focus system than Badlands. 

 

Never said I wanted end-game to stop revolving around gear, I was talking about the whole game. 

Don't see how it would be a bad thing to expend the variety of goals a little bit. 

You now have a reason to be in a clan other than getting research weapons and player-housing...

 

Anyway, I just had a closer look at the stream: Badland missions actually had a higher level than the planet they are tied to.

Seems like a 25% or so increase of the base level, and a very large level range (like 10 level).

 

For example I'm looking at a lvl 17-27 Defense Badland mission in Sedna tied to Graeae (originally lvl 12-15)

 

So you're not gonna see lvl30 nodes on low-level planets (duh, that would be stupid, new-player experience is already enough of an issue as it is *coughLuacough*), but I bet a badland in Pluto would be 50+.

 

You just have to work with your clan to build a rail there, if you wish so. 

[notionphil]

Obviously the reference to level cap applies more to the Focus system than Badlands. 

 

Never said I wanted end-game to stop revolving around gear, I was talking about the whole game. 

Don't see how it would be a bad thing to expend the variety of goals a little bit. 

You now have a reason to be in a clan other than getting research weapons and player-housing...

 

Anyway, I just had a closer look at the stream: Badland missions actually had a higher level than the planet they are tied to.

Seems like a 25% or so increase of the base level, and a very large level range (like 10 level).

 

For example I'm looking at a lvl 17-27 Defense Badland mission in Sedna tied to Graeae (originally lvl 12-15)

 

So you're not gonna see lvl30 nodes on low-level planets (duh, that would be stupid, new-player experience is already enough of an issue as it is *coughLuacough*), but I bet a badland in Pluto would be 50+.

 

You just have to work with your clan to build a rail there, if you wish so.

I think tying endgame to player created/controlled entities is a great idea. Don't get me wrong.

I just feel that it doesn't make any sense for anything vaguely construed as endgame to not at reach the current power cap of the playerbase. If it does, and the comment that "it's the same level as system" was a simplification or incorrect, great.

50+ at Pluto would be a start. Again, I know this is a challenge bandaid. But a bandaid is preferrable to an open wound.

[Thelonious]

Agreed.

 

But I hope you like pain, cause this badaid is soaked in surgical alcohol...

 

They're just higher level enemies, they still have the same broken mechanics (hitscan weapons, unavoidable cc's, bullet sponges...), and we still have the same broken ways to fight them.

(Don't mention melee 2.0, the minute I realized you still can't block cc's, I knew it wasn't viable)

 

I can't see how it's gonna improve the gameplay in any way.

That's just gonna hurt even more than an open wound imo.

[(PSN)billy-d-squid]

50+ at Pluto would be a start. Again, I know this is a challenge bandaid. But a bandaid is preferrable to an open wound.

 

To really deal with that increasing the lvl range isn't the solution, at least not entirely, the key issue is the damage table. The percentage bonus damage vs particular types of armour/shields/flesh allows for extremes and causes the complete lack of challenge that you're talking about. For instance, May gets +75% damage vs the Corpus, almost across the board. That's absolutely massive, no wonder she's so powerful, and yet vs the Grineer, Alloy armour and the armour resistance lumps her with a -50% and -30% damage nerf. So he becomes "don't touch with a barge pole"

 

Now if that were limited to 25% (or less for all damage types, 25% being the max) pro or con vs Corps shields and robotics and Alloy, Mag is still better vs the Corpus, but she's not so horribly powerful, and she's still useful vs the Grineer. The same effect is going to be felt on the elemental damage mods, currently given that stacking them on a weapon gives them so much of a damage buff it's laughably easy to cut through the Corpus with a Latron Prime or the Grineer with a Braton Prime despite the base type of damage being completely wrong to use vs the enemy.

 

I think that's where the problem of challenge in part lies, the percentages on the damage 2.0 tables.

Edited April 5, 2014 by (PS4)billy-d-squid

[notionphil]

To really deal with that increasing the lvl range isn't the solution, at least not entirely

 

 

They're just higher level enemies, they still have the same broken mechanics (hitscan weapons, unavoidable cc's, bullet sponges...), and we still have the same broken ways to fight them.

 

I agree wholeheartedely with both of these statements. Enemy mechanics, ability mechanics, weapon mod system and damage 2.0 work together to make true skill based play near impossible. A small subset of our choices are so-effective-they're-broken and the remainder are nigh useless in high level content.

 

However, the road to revamping enemies, abilities and damage are long. We will need stopgaps while the aforementioned systems are re-built or renewed. Otherwise, there will likely be few vets left to see the Warframe 2.0 that DE spoke so tenderly of at the start of this year.

 

I can personally think of far more effective, permanent endgame solutions than slapping high level missions on Badlands (Cells' honorific challenges for example), but, this is what we have. And I'm going to do my darndest to campaign for that to be a step towards a true endgame.

 

Even if its a baby step.

 

Also, we haven't seen the mechanics yet. As my OP states, I'm hopeful to see interesting (defense/challenge) mechanics inside of the Badlands missions and will certainly appeal for those to be the genesis of skill based play.

 

PS - and billy-d-squid. An Elegant Damage Solution [imgs].

Edited April 5, 2014 by notionphil