Sentinels And Their Use, Specially Carrier.

[Gregio]

I looked at the Index thread and didn't find it there, so I thought I'd make this thread.

I've been talking to my clan for a while, and even though everyone likes this or that sentinel, we only ever use Carrier.
The reason why is simple, auto-loot is a necessary thing in Warframe, it increases survivability times in Survival, it makes sustaining fire easier with a demanding weapon like the Supra or Soma, and even during the Design Council vote for next Sentinel, when auto-loot was one of the options, I suggested what I will suggest now.

Auto-loot needs to be changed to a general sentinel precept, like Sanctuary, so you can use it with any sentinel.
These are small milestones added to the game, Warframe without a sentinel and then with a sentinel, Warframe with auto-loot and then without. It wasn't once that I saw someone ragequit a game because their sentinel died, that or rush into, get killed and yell at people not to ressurrect them so they can spend a revive and restore Carrier.

DE knows Carrier is the most loved sentinel, seeing as U13 comes with a Para Carrier skin and I'm sure as designers, they would rather more people used more of their content, instead of 90% of people using only one thing.

To follow with this suggestion, how could we then change Carrier?

Keeping with it's name, perhaps carrier could carry a resource bonus, multiplying all collected resources by up to 1.5-2x at max level. Or perhaps it would have an enhanced version of Vacuum, with longer reach than the current one, or one that loots resources instantly, without waiting for them to fall to the ground.

My first sentinel was Wyrm and I love it, and I hate scanning, so I'd love to use the new sentinel, but no matter what, it's simply too painful to play Warframe without Carrier's auto loot after you've had it.

Fellow Tenno, give me your opinion, if you agree, post your own experiences or suggest a new possible ability for Carrier, if you disagree, tell me why.

Edited April 4, 2014 by Gregio

[Aka_Miso]

Vacuum used to have more range on it i think but it didnt have a cd that ik but lets not make it any stronger hes not weak in the slightest auto loot on ever sentinel would make carrier unneeded and more resources no one really cares about

Edited April 4, 2014 by Sasoka

[alchemistjkt]

Auto-loot needs to be changed to a general sentinel precept, like Sanctuary, so you can use it with any sentinel.

funny thing is, thats what they originally said they would do.

instead, they gave us carrier... still not really sure why.

[Mopbucket0]

Autoloot is necessary?  No.

 

I use a Djinn for the range and have very little problems with survivability.  Coolant leak or Sanctuary improves survivability faaaaaaar more than autoloot.

Edited April 4, 2014 by Mopbucket0

[Gregio]

funny thing is, thats what they originally said they would do.

instead, they gave us carrier... still not really sure why.

That would have been ideal.

@Sasoka

I would improve Carrier only if all sentinels got Auto Loot, so it has an edge for being, you know, Carrier.

@Mopbucket0

Autoloot IS necessary when you're playing something more difficult, any survival beyond 15 minutes, any high level defense, hell, even trying to beat an invasion quickly with a consuming weapon like Gorgon Wraith requires autoloot. What I meant by survivability in Survival was keeping the life support topped, carrier helps picking up all the individual units.

[Mopbucket0]

That would have been ideal.

@Sasoka

I would improve Carrier only if all sentinels got Auto Loot, so it has an edge for being, you know, Carrier.

@Mopbucket0

Autoloot IS necessary when you're playing something more difficult, any survival beyond 15 minutes, any high level defense, hell, even trying to beat an invasion quickly with a consuming weapon like Gorgon Wraith requires autoloot. What I meant by survivability in Survival was keeping the life support topped, carrier helps picking up all the individual units.

 

Okay, I have to laugh at this.  I do T3 Survivals all the time farming up Forma.  (I have an addiction, and its name is Forma.)  We average at least 45 minutes.  I can solo past 35 on autopilot on either T3 or Corpus.  The only survival that is dangerous earlier is Phobos.  (Grineer OP compared to rest of races!)  95% of the time it's with Djinn.  Maybe 1% of the time with Carrier. 

[alchemistjkt]

Autoloot IS necessary when you're playing something more difficult

eh... nah... not really.

its nice to have and it makes your life easier for sure, but its not really needed.

more often than not, my sents just die around the 30m mark anyway (for surv that is) so im use to just not even having a sent around lol.

[izzatuw]

Another one of these make Carrier's vacuum universal threads... Urggh you know what, let's make all abilities universal yeah?

[Gregio]

Okay, I have to laugh at this.  I do T3 Survivals all the time farming up Forma.  (I have an addiction, and its name is Forma.)  We average at least 45 minutes.  I can solo past 35 on autopilot on either T3 or Corpus.  The only survival that is dangerous earlier is Phobos.  (Grineer OP compared to rest of races!)  95% of the time it's with Djinn.  Maybe 1% of the time with Carrier. 

Well, I admire you then, but you'd have to admit, Carrier is the most used sentinel, either because not everyone is as good as you, or because a great number of people are lazy like me. But it still hurts the game when one sentinel is much better than the others. You can, of course play without Carrier, but no one can deny it makes the game a lot easier when you have one less worry, and you still have to go after certain loot anyways, and there are a great deal of people that go way beyond you in survival, and from videos I've seen and pubs I've played, most of those players use Carrier.

@izzatuw

I understand you disagree, but would it be hurtful somehow if all sentinels had auto loot? Carrier would still be the best at it, or the best at resource getting with my suggestion, but the other sentinels would be a lot more viable.

[alchemistjkt]

Another one of these make Carrier's vacuum universal threads... Urggh you know what, let's make all abilities universal yeah?

to be fair... DE did say that it was going to be a mod for our sents, not that it was going to be a sentinel specific precept.

they then turned around and gave us carrier.

 

i think the number of threads bringing this point to light are well justified.

we need to remember things like this.

 

and yes, i am still a little salty about the 2 (arguably 3) times they changed the void drops and lied about it.

[Orbister]

Autoloot is necessary?  No.

 

I use a Djinn for the range and have very little problems with survivability.  Coolant leak or Sanctuary improves survivability faaaaaaar more than autoloot.

autoloot is not about survivavility.

[izzatuw]

Well, I admire you then, but you'd have to admit, Carrier is the most used sentinel, either because not everyone is as good as you, or because a great number of people are lazy like me. But it still hurts the game when one sentinel is much better than the others. You can, of course play without Carrier, but no one can deny it makes the game a lot easier when you have one less worry, and you still have to go after certain loot anyways, and there are a great deal of people that go way beyond you in survival, and from videos I've seen and pubs I've played, most of those players use Carrier.

@izzatuw

I understand you disagree, but would it be hurtful somehow if all sentinels had auto loot? Carrier would still be the best at it, or the best at resource getting with my suggestion, but the other sentinels would be a lot more viable.

If you're a farmer yes Carrier's the best, but I can find Shade just as useful. You can literally walk in a room full of Corpus undetected and than when you feel like it, you can do Rhino Stomp. Etc etc. Djinn's fatal attraction+ coolant leak can make melee a lot more useful with melee 2.0 coming.

[Mopbucket0]

Well, I admire you then, but you'd have to admit, Carrier is the most used sentinel, either because not everyone is as good as you, or because a great number of people are lazy like me. But it still hurts the game when one sentinel is much better than the others. You can, of course play without Carrier, but no one can deny it makes the game a lot easier when you have one less worry, and you still have to go after certain loot anyways, and there are a great deal of people that go way beyond you in survival, and from videos I've seen and pubs I've played, most of those players use Carrier.

 

 

I'm not trying to say I'm good.  I used to play TF2 and, even though I got decent at it, the best players could stomp me like I was an ant.  After that I don't really care to pretend I'm superior because, after being drubbed like that, I know I just don't have that natural talent. 

 

I'm just saying that you're mistaken when you say that Carrier is one of the best sentinels.  The popularity of Carrier always leaves me scratching my head.  It's great on tighter maps where the shotgun and the shortened range can actually be an advantage.  On bigger maps Djinn/Death Cube/Wyrm beat it.  Replacing their secondary precepts with Coolant Leak (solo) or Sanctuary (group) is fine if you don't like their powers.  I never use Djinn's secondary.  Since weapons can be mixed and matched...the Deth Rifle or the Stinger can put out amazing amounts of damage once a person invests enough love into them. 

 

Carrier is for lazy people who don't want to pick up loot.  That's fine.  Sometimes I use it for just that reason.  But let's be real, here.  It's, by no means, the best sentinel.  Shade will be amazing for melee 2.0.  Wyrm might be good too.  Death Cube used to be the best sentinel.  Sometimes I use it just for funzies. 

[Mopbucket0]

autoloot is not about survivavility.

That was precisely my point.  The OP said it was, not me.

[Gregio]

Carrier not being the best is sort of an isolated opinion though. I understand your point, but the great majority and popularity of carrier proves a point, it IS the prefered sentinel, and that's simply because of the auto loot.

Wouldn't making the autoloot global improve ALL sentinels and give players reasons to find their favorite?

I agree with your points, Carrier is ONLY useful for farming, but sometimes, when you don't have to focus on any looting or picking up, you can focus a lot more on the other aspects, and Sweeper/DMR are great weapons to have on fully modded. The Sweeper coming on Carrier is also another reason for it's popularity, seeing as it's a shotgun sentinel weapon, and rifles and pistols are a lot more used than shotguns, so you don't need to nerf your sentinel's weapon or your own, or have two sets of mods, and you can go full power on all three accounts.

[Mopbucket0]

Carrier not being the best is sort of an isolated opinion though. I understand your point, but the great majority and popularity of carrier proves a point, it IS the prefered sentinel, and that's simply because of the auto loot.

Wouldn't making the autoloot global improve ALL sentinels and give players reasons to find their favorite?

I agree with your points, Carrier is ONLY useful for farming, but sometimes, when you don't have to focus on any looting or picking up, you can focus a lot more on the other aspects, and Sweeper/DMR are great weapons to have on fully modded. The Sweeper coming on Carrier is also another reason for it's popularity, seeing as it's a shotgun sentinel weapon, and rifles and pistols are a lot more used than shotguns, so you don't need to nerf your sentinel's weapon or your own, or have two sets of mods, and you can go full power on all three accounts.

Making autoloot global wouldn't improve all sentinels.  It would devalue the Carrier.  The secondary Precept and target range are really the only substantive difference between sentinels.  Take one of those away (precept) and what's the point?

 

Popularity means nothing.  If it did, then Justin Bieber and Katy Perry would be the best musicians EVARRRRR.  (Twitter as measure.)

 

How is leveling two rifle mods any more difficult than leveling a rifle mod and a shotgun mod?

 

Gregio, go level up your Djinn and give it some love.  I have both my Djinn and my Carrier maxed.  Sweeper and Stinger also w/formas.  What you'll find is that, due to the range and damage of the Djinn/Stinger, you'll have a lot more oxygen. 

 

Here's the key to not being S#&$ty in Survival (if you're having problems by wave 15 then well...): Kill things quickly.  The faster everything dies, the more oxygen you get.  By that measure the Djinn absolutely crushes the Carrier simply due to its kill radius.  Any decently open map tile (and those are the best tiles to camp on a Survival because you need high spawn rates) will show this.

[Gregio]

Obviously, as I said in the first post, Carrier would need to be improved, gaining a new secondary precept or an improved version of vacuum to set it apart, I also suggested a resource booster-esque ability it could have.

Popularity is not a measure of worth, but it's a pointer that the balance isn't right, any MMO should always be striving to keep balance among it's things, to keep availability of everything worth it. I have maxed Djinn and I like it, but still prefer Carrier for the auto loot.

I don't have problems in Survival, that was just an example. I can easily solo past 20 minutes on pretty much any of my frames. Except Banshee, F*** Banshee.
I'm also not an adept of commonly accepted practices and I don't follow fads just because they're fads. The Brakk's apparently the strongest weapon in the game, I don't like it so I maxed it and now it lies there in my inventory, Vauban's the king of infested, so they say, he's my least favorite frame so he never got a reactor and I sold him ages ago.

I use Carrier because autoloot IS great. It may not be essential, but it IS very handy, and I would like every sentinel to have it so I can use any of them for their ACTUAL benefits. And of course, Carrier would have it's own new benefit instead.

EDIT: Actually, I change my second statement. Popularity IS a measure of worth, it may not be the best measure of worth or mean that the thing is the best, but by being the most popular, something about it is liked by the majority, so it is worthy, I suppose.

Edited April 5, 2014 by Gregio

[Mopbucket0]

I use Carrier because autoloot IS great. It may not be essential, but it IS very handy, and I would like every sentinel to have it so I can use any of them for their ACTUAL benefits. And of course, Carrier would have it's own new benefit instead.

 

My answer to this is simple.  You sacrifice something to gain something.  Believe me, I love Vacuum.  I just don't think sacrificing range and damage is worth it.  Gear decisions are supposed to be about trade offs.  It's a legit one that both you and I have made.  I prefer damage. You prefer convenience.  I don't see the point of getting rid of the decision. 

[Gregio]

My answer to this is simple.  You sacrifice something to gain something.  Believe me, I love Vacuum.  I just don't think sacrificing range and damage is worth it.  Gear decisions are supposed to be about trade offs.  It's a legit one that both you and I have made.  I prefer damage. You prefer convenience.  I don't see the point of getting rid of the decision. 

My answer to this is also simple. Auto loot is in my opinion a far too essential ability, and Carrier should never have gotten it exclusively in the first place. That's not what I voted for in the Design Council. DE ignored us and made it exclusive to Carrier.

You are absolutely correct, there should be tradeoffs, auto loot should not be one of them. The mod points for equipping that extra precept on a different sentinel should be. Instead of using Coolant Leak, you'd use Vacuum, or instead of Sanctuary or any such sort.

Carrier should have a new ability that sets it apart, one of the original suggestions FOR CARRIER was a very small passive restore of HP/Energy, for example. Auto loot was one of the suggestions for "New precept for sentinels" not "New precept exclusive to a new sentinel".

[Mopbucket0]

 Auto loot is in my opinion a far too essential ability,

You lost me right there.  I barely use Vacuum or even Thief's Wit when I'm farming.  i usually get more Oxium/Orokin Cells than my clanmates.  Mostly because I dual zoren or wave dash a lot and look like a Warframe with ADHD.  I also pay attention to where large masses of enemies usually die on any given map tile.

 

Vacuum is a great utility for the lazy.  There's nothing essential about it.

[Gregio]

You lost me right there.  I barely use Vacuum or even Thief's Wit when I'm farming.  i usually get more Oxium/Orokin Cells than my clanmates.  Mostly because I dual zoren or wave dash a lot and look like a Warframe with ADHD.  I also pay attention to where large masses of enemies usually die on any given map tile.

 

Vacuum is a great utility for the lazy.  There's nothing essential about it.

They're both opinions, mine and yours.

I can guess we're very different players since I completely abhor zoren coptering and wave dashing.

Anyways, yes, vacuum is useful, and I suppose it's good for lazy people specially.

I'd have to disagree on your second sentence though, for me, Carrier and Thief's Wit are usually exclusive rather than a combo. If I'm going to loot on my own, I use Thief's Wit, so I don't miss anything good, if I brought Carrier, then I want it to be doing all the looting for me.

The thing is, DE encourages exploratoraly looting, for which Thief's Wit is great, but it isn't really very rewarding, mass enemy killing and lazy looting with Carrier is a lot easier and more rewarding.

I suppose I won't change your mind, but I still believe Vacuum/Auto Loot would be more beneficial for the game as a whole being a general precept and Carrier being given a new ability, it already has a great weapon, it won't be suddenly forgotten because auto loot became a global precept for sentinels.

[Arunafeltz]

Wyrm's still my main Sentinel. Didn't DE mention something about increasing loot pick-up radius for Warframes anyway?

[Ronyn]

 

The popularity of Carrier always leaves me scratching my head. 

 

Vacuum is a great utility for the lazy.  There's nothing essential about it.

 

 

Vacuum isn't a "necessary".

It is however more beneficial than many other sentinels in the way that the games actually play out.

Particularly in how it lessons the time it takes to go from here to there....buy lessening how close you have to get to items.

While that was not exactly it's goal or purpose that is what happens in practice.

Literally everything from reaching objectives, to getting into combat position, to rezzing downed allies is faster to do because there is less need to take the slit seconds to go get close to stuff to replenishing energy/ammo or collect mods and resources.

 

Obviously a better player can collect more of something then a lesser player regardless of what they are using.

But a test of something is only a viable test when it is considered under the assumption that all other conditions are equal.

 

End point-carrier saves you distance traveled. Less distance traveled saves you time. :Less time used on that..

the more time you have for other things. 

Carrier improves ones efficiency to do other things.

Edited April 5, 2014 by Ronyn

[Gregio]

Vacuum isn't a "necessary".

It is however more beneficial than many other sentinels in the way that the games actually play out.

Particularly in how it lessons the time it takes to go from here to there....buy lessening how close you have to get to items.

While that was not exactly it's goal or purpose that is what happens in practice.

Literally everything from reaching objectives, to getting into combat position, to rezzing downed allies is faster to do because there is less need to take the slit seconds to go get close to stuff to replenishing energy/ammo or collect mods and resources.

 

Obviously a better player can collect more of something then a lesser player regardless of what they are using.

But a test of something is only a viable test when it is considered under the assumption that all other conditions are equal.

 

End point-carrier saves you distance traveled. Less distance traveled saves you time. :Less time used on that..

the more time you have for other things. 

Carrier improves ones efficiency to do other things.

I mentioned that earlier and I agree completely.

@Arunafeltz

I haven't heard of that, and while it would be nice it doesn't null the point of this.

You sticking to Wyrm is more of an exception to most players than the norm, and that is what I'm suggesting should change.

[Ronyn]

Making autoloot global wouldn't improve all sentinels.  It would devalue the Carrier. 

Obviously if autoloot/vacuum was made for everyone carrier would need a new signature ability.