Fire Leaders > Ember

[Monolake]

but that's wrong, WoF damages ONE enemy in the area, and if it just so happens to lock on an enemy with a crapton of HP, or if you're in late T3 survival/grineer which resist the fire damage and have massive HP to boot, you're screwed. ember can't take lategame. it's one of the best frames for just clearing the star chart, just press 4 and go, but anything stronger than that? it's over.

 

but guess what, frost STILL is a one trick pony, they nerfed his only good skill to try and get you to use his other skills (which are crap) now you have one meh skill and 3 crap skills, so it's still a 1-trick pony, a worse 1-trick pony.

 

and before the nerf i casted my snowglobe knowing it would be there for 30 seconds, so i left, went around, killed other stuff etcetera. now, using heavy gunner [74] as an example, i have to stay next to the defense target ALWAYS because my globe won't last more than 10 seconds.

 

no it's not, unless you're running a very maxed power strength on ember, her WoF is not going to kill that Heavy gunner [74] any time soon, and if you do run a very maxed power strength build, the darn thing doesn't become self-suficient and starts consumming waay too much energy.

 

 

Thats the overall problem with damage abilities and enemies scaling, but unlike most other frames Ember has a hefty buff from Accelerant so she doesn't become useless at highlevel, while poor Oberon might need to spam his ultimate 20 times if he wants to kill lvl30 Heavy Gunner with it alone Ember can just use one combo. There is some math on Wiki that even Accelerant + head shot Fireball  with max power mods will deal 47000 damage.

[RealPandemonium]

Go play Ember, all of you, with different mod combinations and play-styles until you make it work, because it does work.  Give it a try.  Give real feedback, not "change everything because I want the game to be something else" or " I want every frame to be as stupid as Nova" or " the game should play itself, I don't want to have to be good at the game."

[(PSN)CrimsonShinku]

Thats the overall problem with damage abilities and enemies scaling, but unlike most other frames Ember has a hefty buff from Accelerant so she doesn't become useless at highlevel, while poor Oberon might need to spam his ultimate 20 times if he wants to kill lvl30 Heavy Gunner with it alone Ember can just use one combo. There is some math on Wiki that even Accelerant + head shot Fireball  with max power mods will deal 47000 damage.

you just spent over 100 energy, to kill one enemy. add 30-38 energy more for each additional enemy you manage to headshot ember at high level relies on her weapons, and fire scales horribly with armor. and if you want to make fire relevant besides just AoE 2-second CC, it's going to cost a lot of power mods.

 

when you could simply be a rhino, do a stomp to get everyone floating, and then roar to get more power on your weapon (and their effective elemental mods)

 

First you shouldn't be using a lvl 74 enemy as a basis when the game mechanics break down after 20 minutes in survival. DE balanced the game up to lvl 45, 50 on the new enemy leaders. Not lvl 74. Using Lvl 74 as a figure to declare a power balanced is daft, and only shows that the power was broken in the first place. 

 

And secondly, I said the problem with Frost's powers is that they largely are rubbish. If they nerfed SG to encourage other powers that's ridiculous. But they didn't. They nerfed SG because it was stupid and affected the game to a degree where the go to tactic was spam SG. The problem was they didn't actually improve Frost's other powers for utility or CC. 

no, using a level 74 enemy shows that the power doesn't scale, not that the power is broken. loki's invisibility? it works against any level of enemy, radial disarm, molecular prime and rhino stomp (for the wrong reasons), rhino's roar, excalibur radial blind, all of these work against any level of enemy, they're not straight up damage, but help the party or debuff the enemies in ways that no matter the level of play, are useful. this is my point.

 

ember is nothing but damage, and nobody in their right mind is going to remove damage mods from their weapon to have fire if they see an ember join.

 

snowglobe was useful for 30 seconds, now it is for 10 seconds, so you have to recast it more often. how is that helpful towards removing the tactic of spamming snowglobe? if they keep nerfing it instead of buffing his rest like you said (to be helpful, not to deal straight damage) nobody will use frost because he's just a slow frame with no useful ability.

 

Go play Ember, all of you, with different mod combinations and play-styles until you make it work, because it does work.  Give it a try.  Give real feedback, not "change everything because I want the game to be something else" or " I want every frame to be as stupid as Nova" or " the game should play itself, I don't want to have to be good at the game."

been there, and been doing that ever since the prime version came out, you find nova stupid because you play lower survivals or something then, because if you try to get a rhino prime on T3 survival by going as far as you can, and the enemies start breaking half your shield in one shot, you'll start wishing you had a nova and a frost in the party, not an ember.

 

and not because they deal damage (nova does indirectly though), but because of the massive buffs they both provide to the party.

[Ohmlink]

 *snip*

Ember is actually better off than other damage frames, since she has a damage amp.

 

Loki's invisibility has no enemy counter, which at its core is just bad design, there is no downside to spamming it at any level. The only reason any of the good powers are even considered that is that the enemy literally can't do anything about it until you get to 80+ then numbers are so bloated the entire game is not even functioning the way its supposed to.

[(PSN)CrimsonShinku]

Ember is actually better off than other damage frames, since she has a damage amp.

 

Loki's invisibility has no enemy counter, which at its core is just bad design, there is no downside to spamming it at any level. The only reason any of the good powers are even considered that is that the enemy literally can't do anything about it until you get to 80+ then numbers are so bloated the entire game is not even functioning the way its supposed to.

and valkyr can turn invincible, but you don't see anyone using her in high level defense/survival.

 

this game needs an enemy/power rework. but i've been trying to farm my rhino chassis lately and ember just won't cut it after a point (i end up reduced to accspam with a fire damage soma. WoF just stops being useful

[(PSN)billy-d-squid]

no, using a level 74 enemy shows that the power doesn't scale, not that the power is broken. loki's invisibility? it works against any level of enemy, radial disarm, molecular prime and rhino stomp (for the wrong reasons), rhino's roar, excalibur radial blind, all of these work against any level of enemy, they're not straight up damage, but help the party or debuff the enemies in ways that no matter the level of play, are useful. this is my point.

 

ember is nothing but damage, and nobody in their right mind is going to remove damage mods from their weapon to have fire if they see an ember join.

 

snowglobe was useful for 30 seconds, now it is for 10 seconds, so you have to recast it more often. how is that helpful towards removing the tactic of spamming snowglobe? if they keep nerfing it instead of buffing his rest like you said (to be helpful, not to deal straight damage) nobody will use frost because he's just a slow frame with no useful ability.

 

Lol, what are you chatting about? It's not supposed to scale in the first place! It was never designed to, they're balanced around lvl 45 max. Powers are not supposed to scale indefinitely in power as the lvl increasing. Your entire premiss is utterly wrong in the first place. That's why when you say it doesn't scale vs lvl 74 is irrelevant, it was never supposed to in the first place by design.

 

Yes, those powers grant utility at whatever lvl, And yet the likes of Loki will rely on invisible Galantine attacks to deal with enemies due to the 400% buff to damage. Without it you won't even scratch them. That's where the design mechanics break down, it wasn't supposed to go that high yet weapons lose their power far later than powers which is why it's still usable. 

 

Nova's MP is broken, but the 200% damage buff also breaks down at a lvl where Grineer get so much armour that it takes an entire clip to down one Heavy Gunner, and the Chain explosion doesn't scratch them. 

 

Rhino's CC remains useful at whatever lvl, until your weapon can't actually do the damage to kill enemies fast enough and you simply run out of ammo and energy. 

 

The powers were never supposed to reach that lvl, and if you take it far enough even they fail. What you've pointed out is that some powers are poorly balanced and suffer from design flaws at their core which lets them retain that utility. SG was never supposed to function effectively at lvl 74, like most other powers. You're comparing it to powers which don't have a limit through absence of design foresight and saying because it can't equal them it shouldn't have been nerfed. It's like Blessing, the only cap on it is either boredom or when your weapon stop dealing damage. That's not by design it's because of a lack of it.

[RealPandemonium]

been there, and been doing that ever since the prime version came out, you find nova stupid because you play lower survivals or something then, because if you try to get a rhino prime on T3 survival by going as far as you can, and the enemies start breaking half your shield in one shot, you'll start wishing you had a nova and a frost in the party, not an ember.

 

and not because they deal damage (nova does indirectly though), but because of the massive buffs they both provide to the party.

Infinite content is not the object of balance and never will be.  When DE decides level 50+ enemies are to be an integral part of the game they can re-tune ability damage accordingly but currently you will never fight 50+ enemies as the object of a mission unless you choose to.  50+ enemies are optional and do not factor into frame balance.  

 

 

Good Post

 

This is an accurate analysis of current balance discussions.  We shouldn't buff or nerf anything until heavy Grineer are fixed and we have a good standard by which to balance everything.

Edited April 8, 2014 by RealPandemonium

[mcKentucky]

I see why not, considering we will get Focus.

[Monolake]

you just spent over 100 energy, to kill one enemy. add 30-38 energy more for each additional enemy you manage to headshot ember at high level relies on her weapons, and fire scales horribly with armor. and if you want to make fire relevant besides just AoE 2-second CC, it's going to cost a lot of power mods.

 

when you could simply be a rhino, do a stomp to get everyone floating, and then roar to get more power on your weapon (and their effective elemental mods)

 

no, using a level 74 enemy shows that the power doesn't scale, not that the power is broken. loki's invisibility? it works against any level of enemy, radial disarm, molecular prime and rhino stomp (for the wrong reasons), rhino's roar, excalibur radial blind, all of these work against any level of enemy, they're not straight up damage, but help the party or debuff the enemies in ways that no matter the level of play, are useful. this is my point.

 

ember is nothing but damage, and nobody in their right mind is going to remove damage mods from their weapon to have fire if they see an ember join.

 

snowglobe was useful for 30 seconds, now it is for 10 seconds, so you have to recast it more often. how is that helpful towards removing the tactic of spamming snowglobe? if they keep nerfing it instead of buffing his rest like you said (to be helpful, not to deal straight damage) nobody will use frost because he's just a slow frame with no useful ability.

 

been there, and been doing that ever since the prime version came out, you find nova stupid because you play lower survivals or something then, because if you try to get a rhino prime on T3 survival by going as far as you can, and the enemies start breaking half your shield in one shot, you'll start wishing you had a nova and a frost in the party, not an ember.

 

and not because they deal damage (nova does indirectly though), but because of the massive buffs they both provide to the party.

So your point is what, damage abilities are underpowered, weapons are overpowered? Completely agree: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/204033-gimped-by-design-and-system-the-miserable-state-of-damage-abilities. And it has nothing to do with Ember (she has damage muiltipler that affects weapons after all) or the current topic. 

 

 

And lets be more prescise with terminology:  weapons dont exactly scale with enemies levels, they do excessive damage due to mods stacking (well if you want to be thorough viral proc provides some scaling)

CC doesnt scale with enemies levels, it ignores them. 

Edited April 8, 2014 by Monolake

[(PSN)CrimsonShinku]

Infinite content is not the object of balance and never will be.  When DE decides level 50+ enemies are to be an integral part of the game they can re-tune ability damage accordingly but currently you will never fight 50+ enemies as the object of a mission unless you choose to.  50+ enemies are optional and do not factor into frame balance.  

 

 

 

This is an accurate analysis of current balance discussions.  We shouldn't buff or nerf anything until heavy Grineer are fixed and we have a good standard by which to balance everything.

 

Lol, what are you chatting about? It's not supposed to scale in the first place! It was never designed to, they're balanced around lvl 45 max. Powers are not supposed to scale indefinitely in power as the lvl increasing. Your entire premiss is utterly wrong in the first place. That's why when you say it doesn't scale vs lvl 74 is irrelevant, it was never supposed to in the first place by design.

 

Yes, those powers grant utility at whatever lvl, And yet the likes of Loki will rely on invisible Galantine attacks to deal with enemies due to the 400% buff to damage. Without it you won't even scratch them. That's where the design mechanics break down, it wasn't supposed to go that high yet weapons lose their power far later than powers which is why it's still usable. 

 

Nova's MP is broken, but the 200% damage buff also breaks down at a lvl where Grineer get so much armour that it takes an entire clip to down one Heavy Gunner, and the Chain explosion doesn't scratch them. 

 

Rhino's CC remains useful at whatever lvl, until your weapon can't actually do the damage to kill enemies fast enough and you simply run out of ammo and energy. 

 

The powers were never supposed to reach that lvl, and if you take it far enough even they fail. What you've pointed out is that some powers are poorly balanced and suffer from design flaws at their core which lets them retain that utility. SG was never supposed to function effectively at lvl 74, like most other powers. You're comparing it to powers which don't have a limit through absence of design foresight and saying because it can't equal them it shouldn't have been nerfed. It's like Blessing, the only cap on it is either boredom or when your weapon stop dealing damage. That's not by design it's because of a lack of it.

those paragraphs on the middle, that's what i want, you can say "you're not supposed to play beyond level 50!" and sure, it might not be the intended target, but tell me what else does this game have? if you want to earn plat by playing you're going to have to fight level 50+ enemies sometime, or else you're just cheating the system by resetting your game to keep the keys once you reach level 50+ monsters.

 

and those paragraphs in the middle are exactly what i want, don't you think it odd? the mighty and powerful warframes, once engaged by strong enemies, would rather use just their guns? nah, i'd much prefer a system where your guns and your abilities support each other, of course not ALL abilities, but abilities that stay relevant until your weapons aren't.

 

ember used to be a tank, she could take the damage and stand on the frontlines, this supports weapons, it promotes the use of strong close-ranged weapons like shotguns for example, she could be used as bait, so many uses. that lasted far, far longer than the uses of accelerant now.

 

balancing frames to be useful for as long as your weapons are would also help DE, it would mean they need to pay far less attention to skills in the future. instead if they decide to add T4 keys they are going to have to remodel frame abilities, and if they don't do it to scale with infinity, then once whatever's next, let's call it T5 keys, comes; then they'll have to rework skills again.

 

Infinite content is not the object of balance and never will be.  When DE decides level 50+ enemies are to be an integral part of the game they can re-tune ability damage accordingly but currently you will never fight 50+ enemies as the object of a mission unless you choose to.  50+ enemies are optional and do not factor into frame balance.  

 

 

 

This is an accurate analysis of current balance discussions.  We shouldn't buff or nerf anything until heavy Grineer are fixed and we have a good standard by which to balance everything.

 

 

So your point is what, damage abilities are underpowered, weapons are overpowered? Completely agree: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/204033-gimped-by-design-and-system-the-miserable-state-of-damage-abilities. And it has nothing to do with Ember (she has damage muiltipler that affects weapons after all) or the current topic. 

 

 

And lets be more prescise with terminology:  weapons dont exactly scale with enemies levels, they do excessive damage due to mods stacking (well if you want to be thorough viral proc provides some scaling)

CC doesnt scale with enemies levels, it ignores them. 

yup, you got what i mean, saying it scales is faster than saying it ignores enemy level, but yea, i don't want ALL frame abilities to be useful forever, but have every character get one or two that just helps the team regardless.

 

nekros has his desecrate (survival only, otherwise it's just a commodity)

excalibur has his radial blind

loki has his radial disarm, invisibility if you want to survival.

rhino has roar and stomp

nova has Mprime (and i guess you can count AMD here)

volt has his, albeit not as good, shield

and i'm sure i'm missing some.

 

but these abilities make your weapons more useful, and stop being useful once your weapons stop being useful, they scale perfectly (or ignore scaling) with you and your ability, and help pretty much every weapon in the game be more efficient, or do it's job more efficiently. some are a bit on the overpowered side (nova's slow and always lasting the same time regardless of mods, or trinity just granting you perfect invincibility.) but overall they remain useful for the whole trip, regardless of enemy

 

ember used to have that, actually overpowered you could say since it granted almost trinity-like levels of survival, but now she's useless beyond the "intended range"

 

so yeah you can claim that i'm going beyond what's intended, but that's also part of the game, and i'd like to take my favorite frames to the only challenge the game has. because after a few formas and mods, everything in the game but 50+ enemies drop in a shot, and your warframe abilities are useless, just a "they look cool" button.

[RealPandemonium]

those paragraphs on the middle, that's what i want, you can say "you're not supposed to play beyond level 50!" and sure, it might not be the intended target, but tell me what else does this game have? if you want to earn plat by playing you're going to have to fight level 50+ enemies sometime, or else you're just cheating the system by resetting your game to keep the keys once you reach level 50+ monsters.

1. Resetting to keep your key is an intended behavior.

2. Traditionally you earn plat by selling corrupted mods anyway.  You never need to fight 50+ enemies for anything, ever.  If you personally enjoy infinite content then that's fine, go right ahead, but don't say that every frame that can't do infinite content sucks, because it isn't and shouldn't be the focus of balance.  

[(PSN)CrimsonShinku]

1. Resetting to keep your key is an intended behavior.

2. Traditionally you earn plat by selling corrupted mods anyway.  You never need to fight 50+ enemies for anything, ever.  If you personally enjoy infinite content then that's fine, go right ahead, but don't say that every frame that can't do infinite content sucks, because it isn't and shouldn't be the focus of balance.  

corrupted mods might sell in the computer but in PS4 they're worthless barring the three big ones (blind rage,overextended and fleeting) most of the plat right now comes from primes

 

but fine, ok, resetting keys is intended, not going to argue that since if it actually hit DE's pocket they'd change it (although with how horrible the drop chance is for rhino chassis and all the crap they drop, they might have in a different way)

 

and let me ask, would you like to keep the current frame abilities as-is simply because DE says that anything above 50 isn't intended, or would you prefer they give each frame a shot to go as far as they can?

[Hyunsai]

no it's not, unless you're running a very maxed power strength on ember, her WoF is not going to kill that Heavy gunner [74] any time soon, and if you do run a very maxed power strength build, the darn thing doesn't become self-suficient and starts consumming waay too much energy.

 

WoF is not supposed to deal with heavy gunners, Accelerant and your Fire Weapon is. WoF is dealing enough with the normal armored enemies, even of level 74+. And I don't even run a maxed power strenght build. I bring one weapon Corrosive + Fire, the other Radiation + Fire, and I'm set for anything, doing same or more damage than the Nova of the team.

 

So sure, Ember is not easy mode like Nova and cie, but she can get the job done very well in high end mission.

Edited April 9, 2014 by Hyunsai

[Monolake]

I would argue that every frame should be viable inside the 'normal game'  - which is lvl 35 on average now, and no frame or weapon should make the game so easy that any enemy scaling is irrelevant allowing you to easily do lvl100s. Very high levels shoud be hard and require teamwork and skill, but currently you just need a couple of specific frames and OP weapons and you can do lvl200 (which is max lvl limit afaik) which is wrong.

Ember being good DPS frame makes you 'meh' only because OP weapons make any frame into DPS and Nova brings it to ridiculous broken levels having stackable multipliers, while poor Ember "only" has one multi that boosts only the fire damage by "only" ~500% (if maxed).

Edited April 9, 2014 by Monolake

[(PSN)CrimsonShinku]

WoF is not supposed to deal with heavy gunners, Accelerant and your Fire Weapon is. WoF is dealing enough with the normal armored enemies, even of level 74+. And I don't even run a maxed power strenght build. I bring one weapon Corrosive + Fire, the other Radiation + Fire, and I'm set for anything, doing same or more damage than the Nova of the team.

 

So sure, Ember is not easy mode like Nova and cie, but she can get the job done very well in high end mission.

WoF isn-t supposed to deal with the heavy gunners, but you don-t have much control over that besides getting them out of the WoF radius