Make Melee Combos Regen Energy

[notionphil]

Let's not make melee 2.0 just LOOK & FEEL great. Let's make mastering it have an impact.

 

Making melee channel (charge attacks) require energy is going to make energy pickups/carrier/energy syphon/flow builds even more attractive than they already are. That's even more build-funneling.

 

Also realize that no matter how awesome melee 2.0 feels/looks, a properly geared Tenno can currently obliterate literally dozens of enemies with a single button press, or one-hit-kill almost any enemy with a single mouse click, at 30M.

 

How can the sword be as valuable as the gun, when it's mostly limited to a single target, required you to close distance and is risky as your back is open to insta-spawns?

 

Make completing a combo give the Warframe energy, 3-5* Energy depending on the complexity of the combo

 

*Give bonus energy for comboing equal to your damage multiplier, or when you channel.

 

In doing so, you will solve many lingering energy issues with Warframe.

 

1) Gives melee risk/reward. Sure melee looks(and will probably feel) AWESOME, but will still have more risk than pressing left-mouse from 30M away.

 

2) Creates perfect synergy with channeling, using channel in a combo can make the combo meter build faster (or increase the energy rewards)

 

3) End dependence on Energy Siphon, Carrier and Energy builds by offering a viable, skill based alternative. This also allows for new, interesting auras/sentinels/mods to be utilized by players without self-handicapping.

 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

*Not sure abt value, have to see ease of completion in game.

Edited April 7, 2014 by notionphil

[Dalu__Ka]

Lets see how the update turns out first, before making assumptions.

[SpilockT_T]

I thought Melee Channel has that sort of things?

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Provided you actually hit something with the combo, signed

[LukeAura]

I like it. 
Maxing efficiency still might be a much easier way to go though.
It might provide melee as at least a viable alternative, but I don't think it will quite make the cut for many frames. I don't think it's possible to beat room clears for 25 energy. 
Except for Ember at least, she would probably run this kind of build considering she gets hit hard by the duration loss from FE, and her Ult allows for Melee attacks against heavier enemies WoF has trouble taking down as well. 
It would be interesting to see and I definitely like the idea of making a natural synergy between powers, energy, and melee. 

[notionphil]

Lets see how the update turns out first, before making assumptions.

 

No thanks, I prefer to give my constructive feedback when I first see potential problems.

[notionphil]

I like it. 

Maxing efficiency still might be a much easier way to go though.

It might provide melee as at least a viable alternative, but I don't think it will quite make the cut for many frames. I don't think it's possible to beat room clears for 25 energy. 

Except for Ember at least, she would probably run this kind of build considering she gets hit hard by the duration loss from FE, and her Ult allows for Melee attacks against heavier enemies WoF has trouble taking down as well. 

It would be interesting to see and I definitely like the idea of making a natural synergy between powers, energy, and melee. 

 

I think the numbers would need tweaking, and still - you probably shouldn't get as much energy from a melee build as an energy build.

 

However, if you wanted to run pure melee (stam mods), powers shouldn't take too big of a hit. It's too much to ask. Gunplay isn't hampered by a power build. Why should melee suffer, right?

[WhiteCopain]

Melee is almost never going to be as useful as Nova pressing 4. You'll only ever Melee come super late game in a survival/Def mission.

 

 

There is no possible change that'll make it good aside from letting you clear a room instantly with melee or nerfing the 4 key.

[Darigaaz_]

Lets see how the update turns out first, before making assumptions.

I came here to say just that. I really don't think people should suggest changes to something they haven't even tried yet.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

The main problem with melee viability is inability to compete with the TTK of guns while also having more risk. While the new blocking system will help risk, the TTK is still a problem.  Giving players the ability to regen energy should at least partially justify melee's inferior TTK.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Volt_Cruelerz

[LukeAura]

I think the numbers would need tweaking, and still - you probably shouldn't get as much energy from a melee build as an energy build.

If you're running a melee build(Focusing on stamina/movement speed from what I understand?), you're sacrificing more effective range/damage/duration and efficiency/energy sources on your abilities for the improved melee power. It might actually need a better energy gain to compensate for that.

 

[notionphil]

Melee is almost never going to be as useful as Nova pressing 4.

 

Melee is never going to be as useful at killing enemies as an ult, and I recognized that in the OP. That is basically the point of my post.

 

However, melee can be rewarding in other ways, to compensate for the lower Time To Kill vs guns - such as rewarding the player with energy for skillful play.

 

Comparing melee-that-restores-energy with an ult, would be like comparing coptering and an ult in that case. Two different purposes.

[WhiteCopain]

Melee is never going to be as useful at killing enemies as an ult, and I recognized that in the OP. That is basically the point of my post.

 

However, melee can be rewarding in other ways, to compensate for the lower Time To Kill vs guns - such as rewarding the player with energy for skillful play.

 

Comparing melee-that-restores-energy with an ult, would be like comparing coptering and an ult in that case. Two different purposes.

They already talked about Focus mode doing just about everything but restore energy.

 

And I feel that 25 energy ult builds should not be able to instantly clear an entire room.

[notionphil]

I came here to say just that. I really don't think people should suggest changes to something they haven't even tried yet.

 

Sometimes it's best to prevent problems before they occur. Especially if you're doing it constructively.

 

Imagine if the Soma was the best proc gun in the game, with 100% proc chance. It almost was.

 

You must have missed when threads like (Don't Tie Procs to Crit Chance), written after seeing Damage 2.0  preview livestreams - prevented procs from being tied to critical chance.

 

The vocal, constructive feedback of the community (including myself, the thread writer) before things went live saved us from that fate.

[notionphil]

They already talked about Focus mode doing just about everything but restore energy.

 

And I feel that 25 energy ult builds should not be able to instantly clear an entire room.

 

Agreed, but that has nothing to do with this topic :)

 

Melee should be more useful than powers/guns in its own way. E regen is one such way. Feel free to present others.

[WhiteCopain]

Agreed, but that has nothing to do with this topic :)

 

Melee should be more useful than powers/guns in its own way. E regen is one such way. Feel free to present others.

Nerf ults.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

And I feel that 25 energy ult builds should not be able to instantly clear an entire room.

25 energy ults are a completely different issue (though I agree with you).

[Liminal]

They'll surely add a mod for that. Because mods are the best way to implement game mechanics, obviously.

[notionphil]

They'll surely add a mod for that. Because mods are the best way to implement game mechanics, obviously.

 

Oh, I'm sure they will doc. Let's try and get out in front of this one :)

[Volt_Cruelerz]

They'll surely add a mod for that. Because mods are the best way to implement game mechanics, obviously.

;_;  Please don't speak of such things... you might give them ideas...

Edited April 7, 2014 by Volt_Cruelerz

[Ronyn]

Some thoughts on this-

 

 

Note the title. I said at first glance because I am acknowledging that I have not touched melee 2.0 myself.

These are thoughts based solely on what it looks and sounds like.

So please keep that in mind.

 

Alright, so let me start by saying I am so friggin impressed with what you guys have done.

 

You are bringing a new level of awesome to Warframe that can potentially bring in a whole new group of players.

 

There are people out there who don’t like shooters but love melee games.

 

This may very well bring them to warframe.

 

 

The new animations, hit effects and general capability make it well worth the wait for this long time player.

 

I look forward to using combos to great effect.

 

As usual, I am quite pleased with where this is going overall.

 

 

Now on to my critiques.

 

 

CHARGE ATTACKS

 

It was pretty obvious in earlier versions of Melee that charge attacks were too integral to the system.

 

Since they were the best way for most weapons to actually do damage most melee gameplay resulting in charge,charge,charge..ad naseum.

 

For most weapons the other moves were used mostly for traversing distance.

 

That wasn't so great.

 

So I see why the charge attack system as it was did not work so well.

 

But the truth is there were more options than just getting rid of it.

 

First off, for melee 2.0 you are raising the normal attack damage, giving us combos and putting in a hit meter..

 

You have already greatly increased the reason to NOT use a charge attack from moment to moment.

 

In that situation a player would only want to charge attack when it made more sense to spend extra time between strikes than to quickly try to hit the next guy.

 

In fact, knowing when to charge attack and when to normal attack would be an additional layer of depth and diversity to the system.

 

Now, if that alone wasn't enough…

 

Charge attacks could have been aimed at being more Utility focused and less damage based.

 

Obvious example is the punch/kick type weapons we have now.

 

That spinning back kick doesn't do much damage really but it is great for knocking enemies away.

That is Utility. That is what the charge attacks should bring to the table.

 

Other possible options to implement are attacks that turn enemies around, knock them into the air, trip them, pull them in close…etc.

 

I recognize that a lot of that kind of utility will be found inside of combos themselves.

 

But having access to that utility as an opening attack would be very useful in many places.

 

Essentially the usefulness of charge attacks on any weapon can be nearly as helpful and different as the charge attack on the glaive.

 

My recommendation-

 

Don’t get rid of charge attacks, learn to work them in properly to the rest of Melee 2.0.

 

 

CHANNEL SYSTEM

 

Despite the official statement about trying to get away from feeling too much like DMC ...

 

The Channel system really looks as though it acts much like a melee only Devil trigger mode.

 

For those who are very familiar with the DMC series you will remember that there were often special abilities that took from the DT energy pool.

 

Everything from shooting ifrits fireballs in DMC1 to using those sword slash waves in DMC4.

 

So the player had a choice between using those special abilities OR staying in DT longer.

 

Yep, a lot like this Channel system.

 

 

Which to be honest I perfectly fine with. I always enjoyed the general concept so why the heck not.

 

But there is a problem-

 

In DMC you gain DT energy at a pretty steady rate from fighting. DT energy orbs came now and then but weren't mandatory to have energy.

 

In warframe the energy orb's are often just non-existent for a long time or just too darn plentiful. Some days you go long periods without any energy and other times you can unload ultimate's like there is no tomorrow.

 

 

This energy variance is not a melee specific issue, it is an old issue that will keep coming back and messing with any system that works with energy.

 

My recommendation-

 

Allow non-Channeled melee hit’s to replenish energy by small amounts upon hits in Melee 2.0.

 

I am aware that there may be a mod meant to do this but I am suggesting that this be a standard aspect of the system.

 

 

Alright so there are some preliminary thoughts.

 

I look forward to seeing how melee 2.0 actually feels when I get my hands on it.

Carry on fellow tenno!

 

[Volt_Cruelerz]

So here's a question... Should non-channelled melee be able to regen more or less energy than a channelled attack consumes?  I would say

 

Regen: 2 per hit, 5 on combo finish

Channelled: 5 on normal hit, 10 on combo finish

Edited April 7, 2014 by Volt_Cruelerz

[LukeAura]

So here's a question... Should non-channelled melee be able to regen more or less energy than a channelled attack consumes? 

I would say less, I think that would help keep focus on speed and chaining together the multiplier for damage.

But it might be hard to balance that depending how this should compare to other forms of energy gathering.

[Ganpot]

Also realize that no matter how awesome melee 2.0 feels/looks, a properly geared Tenno can currently obliterate literally dozens of enemies with a single button press, or one-hit-kill almost any enemy with a single mouse click, at 30M.

 

How can the sword be as valuable as the gun, when it's mostly limited to a single target, required you to close distance and is risky as your back is open to insta-spawns?

 

This perfectly sums up why melee 2.0 is going to be beautiful but utterly useless.  Even on the livestream, when the devs tried to melee small groups of level 10-12 enemies they got absolutely ripped apart.  There is a long list of reasons why melee isn't viable in Warframe, and most of them don't seem to have been addressed. 

 

Even if you were to give away 50 free energy per completed melee combo and made every melee chain an instant kill, players in high level missions would still be better off using guns most of the time.  If you get close to decent sized groups of Grineer or Infested in high level missions, you will either die near-instantly from their damage output or be stun-locked until they finish you off.  That leaves the Corpus faction, which doesn't really have stun-lock, but does still have massive damage output. 

 

If DE really wants to make melee viable, here is the bare minimum of what needs to happen:

-players are invincible during all melee attacks if something is being damaged during that attack

-all unavoidable CC is removed from enemies

-invincibility frames are added to dodge rolls

-enemy movement speed is reduced, or player movement speed is slightly increased

 

Those changes wouldn't necessarily make melee equivalent to ranged combat in terms of effectiveness, but it would at least help even the gap. 

[Volt_Cruelerz]

This perfectly sums up why melee 2.0 is going to be beautiful but utterly useless. 

I think I may make a thread by that name if it turns out to be such (and it probably will)