Skills And Mods Should Not Compete For Slots

[MXultra]

I know I'm not the first one to think of this, but I can't remember if there was an official response.

 

Most of the skills struggle to justify spending the energy cost to fire them let alone giving up a mod slot to equip them. Most of my builds involve only 1 or 2 skills and my first 2 formas always go to overwrite skills slots. If you are not doing this, you should be.

 

Is that consideration (weighing a skill's use against a mod's buff) really important? It seems like things would just be easier if you gave each frame all 4 skills to use. Then you could more easily balance the skills without having to factor in that maybe somebody would like to use a skill, but it's just not worth equipping when that could be another mod.

 

The difference between 6 mod slots and 9 mod slots is more much more significant than the difference between having only your best skill and having all 4 skills.

 

Looking for a solution? God told me you should do it this way:

 

4 skill-only mod slots

8 non-skill mod slots

 

Edit: Alright, forget the 2 aura suggestion.

Edited April 8, 2014 by MXultra

[Varzy]

I disagree with 2 aura slots, but the rest, I agree with.

Perhaps mods themselves should have a separate pool of 15 Mod capacity. This would allow the 8 frame modslots to be usable, and also when generic ability mods are introduced they'll limit a player from equipping several 'ultimate' skills. The reason I say 15 is because equipping all the skill mods costs 14 capacity.

[Stormandreas]

 Most of my builds involve only 1 or 2 skills and my first 2 formas always go to overwrite skills slots. If you are not doing this, you should be.

Why should I? I've not found a benefit to overwriting skill slots, and would much rather have all my skills available, so I am ready for all situations.

The reason we have 8 mod slots and 1 aura is so we CAN'T just spam everything. 2 Aura slots destroys the need for forma (that is why Steel charge was fixed). Forma was made so that we could equip the ultimate loadout that we want.

[zat-bust]

Why should I? I've not found a benefit to overwriting skill slots, and would much rather have all my skills available, so I am ready for all situations.

The reason we have 8 mod slots and 1 aura is so we CAN'T just spam everything. 2 Aura slots destroys the need for forma (that is why Steel charge was fixed). Forma was made so that we could equip the ultimate loadout that we want.

I agree and disagree, some warframe abilities aren't very useful and they are better off formaed and changed to something else more useful, for example nyx's psychic bolts. LIke it's great and all that you can cast all your abilities, I totally agree with you, but I also don't see an issue with ability slots being changed to other polarities. 

[Deristel]

i agree with op (Except the 2 aura slot) but i would leave things unchanged.Dev could just say "We gave you 4 slot to place skill.You want skills inbuilt into the frame?Ok,we'll give you inbuilt skills but 4 less mod slot on the frame".

Edited April 8, 2014 by Deristel

[Fubukin]

on half the frames, i take two = polarities off, yes, on others i keep them all.

i'd agree on that we could very well do with two more slots somehow, maybe through some new potato variant that is incredibly tricky to craft, i dont know. adding a slot or two, having to potato them all to use them with 60+14 points, that might be a very nice frame build based endgame. rather inflexible, but that is entirely up to you.

so no, i wouldn't agree. i like the freedom one has with designing one's frames, even if it is leaving powers off, or re-polarizing slots reserved for them.

[Rakosta_Kai]

If forma could apply differently to each build type (A,B,C) I would agree with you.

It doesn't so I don't

 

Just 2 aura mods?

Why not all the aura mods if you have them?

 

I mean, if we are gonna min/max, let's think big!

[MXultra]

Why should I? I've not found a benefit to overwriting skill slots, and would much rather have all my skills available, so I am ready for all situations.

The reason we have 8 mod slots and 1 aura is so we CAN'T just spam everything. 2 Aura slots destroys the need for forma (that is why Steel charge was fixed). Forma was made so that we could equip the ultimate loadout that we want.

 

Please tell me which frames you use. I'd be happy to show you some alternate builds.

 

You currently have 10 mod slots. 4 of those go to skills. if you are using all 4 skills, then you only have 6 possible mods.

 

very popular mods: (useful on almost all frames/builds)

redirection, flow, streamline, fast deflection, stretch, fleeting expertise

 

popular mods: (useful on most builds)

vitality, intensify, continuity,  rush

 

semi-popular mods: (useful on specialized builds)

blind rage, overextended, narrow minded, constituion,

 

That would be a full build just using 6 basic mods. Let alone the 8 other mods that are insanely useful.

[MXultra]

bump for more action.

 

/ = or

+ = plus

 

ash - shuriken / smokebomb + bladestorm

banshee - sonic boom / sound quake + sonar

ember - world on fire

excalibur - slash dash + radial blind / javelin

frost - globe + avalanche

loki - invisibility + radial disarm

mag - pull + crush

nekros - desecrate + shadows

nova - mprime + antimatter drop

nyx - chaos + absorb

oberon - hallowed ground / renewal + reckoning

rhino - stomp + iron skin

saryn - miasma

trinity - blessing

valkyr - hysteria

vauban - bastille / vortex

volt - speed + shield

zephyr - tailwind + tornado

 

if you don't see a skill on here, it's because it's not as useful as equipping some badass corrupted mod to boost your frame.

 

the presence of / shows that there are some skills that can be fit into alternate builds but there is no sense in equipping them concurrently if it means giving up mod slots.

 

booyah

[AnimeRocks10223]

bump for more action.

 

/ = or

+ = plus

 

ash - shuriken / smokebomb + bladestorm

banshee - sonic boom / sound quake + sonar

ember - world on fire

excalibur - slash dash + radial blind / javelin

frost - globe + avalanche

loki - invisibility + radial disarm

mag - pull + crush

nekros - desecrate + shadows

nova - mprime + antimatter drop

nyx - chaos + absorb

oberon - hallowed ground / renewal + reckoning

rhino - stomp + iron skin

saryn - miasma

trinity - blessing

valkyr - hysteria

vauban - bastille / vortex

volt - speed + shield

zephyr - tailwind + tornado

 

if you don't see a skill on here, it's because it's not as useful as equipping some badass corrupted mod to boost your frame.

 

the presence of / shows that there are some skills that can be fit into alternate builds but there is no sense in equipping them concurrently if it means giving up mod slots.

 

booyah

first of all, booyah what? it's not like you just made some magically winning argument.

 

Secondly, while I may agree that not all warframe skills are useful, I don't think a change is necessary, you have the freedom to forma the slots  in the first place if you don't like certain skills, and if you do that, that's your choice, but don't get mad if you get into a situation in which a skill you thought was useless would save you, cause that's not bad skill design, that's bad foresight on your part, and don't say that that's never happened, cause otherwise you wouldn't want all skills auto-applied, you would just want skills redone or the ability to change slots without formas to make changing them easier.

 

Finally, Valkyr? only useful skill being Hysteria? you serious? Valkyr is one of the best frames because ALL of her skills are useful (granted some more so than others) allow me to elaborate.

 

Rip Line - one of the best Traversal skills in the game, covers less distance than Worm Hole or Tail Wind but with significantly more control than either

 

War Cry - slows down enemy melee and buffs ally melee speed and armor, good for Valkyr's claws, which otherwise have no way of being faster (aside from Volt's Speed) and increases her DPS in Hysteria.

 

Paralysis - Cheap and an effective stun, the Shield cost may be risky during normal play but in Hysteria mode it pretty much only costs the 5 energy.

 

Hysteria - makes her freakin immortal, i don't even have to explain that one

 

*Edit - accidentally said "Hysteria Mod" instead of "Hysteria Mode" in the description of Paralysis,

Edited April 9, 2014 by AnimeRocks10223

[(PSN)PD_33]

bump for more action.

 

/ = or

+ = plus

 

ash - shuriken / smokebomb + bladestorm

banshee - sonic boom / sound quake + sonar

ember - world on fire

excalibur - slash dash + radial blind / javelin

frost - globe + avalanche

loki - invisibility + radial disarm

mag - pull + crush

nekros - desecrate + shadows

nova - mprime + antimatter drop

nyx - chaos + absorb

oberon - hallowed ground / renewal + reckoning

rhino - stomp + iron skin

saryn - miasma

trinity - blessing

volt - speed + shield

 

I actually like using volts other skills, they are decent. Also Trinity Link skill is OP. Necros has the fear. You missing a lot of great skills.

[Xrkr]

Personally, I'm of the opinion that all skills for each warframe should be available at all times. The skills should come with their own mod slots (perhaps more limited in number) and be forma-able. In this way, each skill could have its own build and the skills themselves won't be competing with warframe mod slots for utility/defensive mods.

Edited April 9, 2014 by Xrkr

[DocHolliday13]

Well, I partially agree with you OP. I do think we should have more slots available for mods. There's way too many frame mods I just never use, because there's always something better. Even with melee 2.0, it's still not worth putting in all the stamina/melee-oriented mods, because you still need to make use of your frame abilities to effectively melee - and that means using some mods to enhance those. And if anything, you need even more defensive mods because you'll be in the thick of the action. Honestly, I could see having the abilities become non-mod and still having 10 mod slots available. It would allow so much more flexibility. And frames don't have the potential for becoming OP through more mods nearly as much as weapons do.

 

However, I absolutely do not agree that nearly all frames have only two good abilities. Most abilities are quite useful depending on the circumstances. Rhino, for example, has four great abilities. So do Valkyr, Loki, and Mag. All the rest have at least three worthwhile abilities.

[MXultra]

first of all, booyah what? it's not like you just made some magically winning argument.

 

No, but I succeeded in creating controversy that inspires discourse.

 

Apart from the cosmetic appearance of a frame, their skills are primarily what determine their character and style. I think it is best for a frame to have access to these signature abilities at all times. That is why I want them. The skills still need to be balanced (or in some cases, made relevant) but at least then I could use a skill and give feedback on it rather than completely write it off as useless because there are mods that are excessively more preferable.

 

Edit: also, please remember I am not saying whatever skill is useless, I'm saying that about half of them are less worthwhile than the powerful non-skill mods that could replace them. I admit there are some great skills out there, but if you want to compare builds, I am confident I can demonstrate objectively better builds for each frame if you are willing to give up 2 of their skills.

Edited April 9, 2014 by MXultra

[DocHolliday13]

 

 I am confident I can demonstrate objectively better builds for each frame if you are willing to give up 2 of their skills.

 

I am quite certain you can't.

 

[MXultra]

I am quite certain you can't.

 

so pick a frame

[Yousho]

Skills, 'fun' mods and 'useful' mods should not compete for space.

Taking the stats off helmets is a good idea, imo.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/137875-a-complete-rework-of-the-foundation-of-warframe/ <--- greats ideas.

[Shackram]

Why should I? I've not found a benefit to overwriting skill slots, and would much rather have all my skills available, so I am ready for all situations.

 

Unfortunatelly, some abilities aren't very useful for any situation.

 

A few that come to mind are Null Star, Psychic Bolts, Smite and Halloweed ground.

 

I agree and disagree, some warframe abilities aren't very useful and they are better off formaed and changed to something else more useful, for example nyx's psychic bolts. LIke it's great and all that you can cast all your abilities, I totally agree with you, but I also don't see an issue with ability slots being changed to other polarities. 

 

Plus you don't really need to bother with polarization for ability cards that use 3 and 5 points at poist.

 

You can polarize the skill slot for something that needs more space and put those abilities in unpolarized slots. Which i believe is more efficient.

Edited April 10, 2014 by Shackram

[MXultra]

Skills, 'fun' mods and 'useful' mods should not compete for space.

Taking the stats off helmets is a good idea, imo.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/137875-a-complete-rework-of-the-foundation-of-warframe/ <--- greats ideas.

 

Yeah I was starting to think there should be 4 skill-only slots, 8 "useful" slots, and 2 "fun" slots (for heavy impact, mag lev, etc)

 

And I know it was too much for most of you to handle the first time, but in thinking about it again, I think we should have 2 auras (maybe 1 could be a "useful" aura, and 1 could be a "fun" aura).

 

I'm just oodles of controversy.

[Axterix13]

I actually like using volts other skills, they are decent. Also Trinity Link skill is OP. Necros has the fear. You missing a lot of great skills.

Agree on Volt.  Shock and Speed are his two best skills.  Shield is his worst, due to being the most situational. 

 

That said, I forma'd mine so that he only has two power polarity slots left.  While I do use all four of his at various times, the most I use is three at the same time, with Shock always being loaded.  When I do load up three powers, Shock just doesn't get a slot polarized for it, because really, why bother?  Those #1 powers aren't worth saving a polarity slot, as the difference between putting it there or in a neutral slot is 1 (2 vs 3).  For that matter, I could drop it into another slot I've polarized and it only costs 4, which is still going to be less than whatever was there (min of 5 for the 9 point R5 ones).  Those #1 powers are so cheap that there's really no point in holding a polarized spot for them.

[Shackram]

Double post.

Edited April 10, 2014 by Shackram

[xGryphus]

4 dedicated slots for abilities (with separate energy pool, like Varzy suggested) and 8 ordinary slots would surely be awesome and balanced. Hell, 2 of 8 ordinary slots could even be restricted to common and uncommon mods to prevent power creep.

I remember there was once an idea on this forum to leave 6 slots for ordinary mods and create 4 dedicated slots for abilities and assign each 3 additional slots (unlockable at 10/20/30 level) for mods that would modify that ability only, so it would look omething like this:
[A][1a][2a][3a]
[1b][2b][3b]
[C][1c][2c][3c]

[D][1d][2d][3d]
On given example: if you install Continuity in, lets say, slot [1a] it would only increase duration of ability A while rest of abilities would remain unaffected. This surely could greatly increase customization however, it would also create few crucial problems:
- how energy pool would be managed? Maybe energy cost of abilities could be transformed into separate pools for "customization" slots?
- would multiple copies of particular mod be required for each ability or could one copy be shared among all abilities?

When it comes to second aura slot - surely not on warframe. However an aura slot on sentinel - that would be tempting (I would gladly slap Enemy Radar on my Carrier). Of course at least under condition that it wouldn't stack with warframe aura (no double Energy Syphon - sorry). Additional aura effect would be lost if sentinel is destroyed.

[DocHolliday13]

so pick a frame

 

No, you pick one. Any frame you like. Take two of its skills off and replace them with something else. Then I'll tell you how and why it's not an objectively better build.

[CosyPigeon]

Agree, abilities should be built in to the Frame, not competing with mod slots.

[MXultra]

No, you pick one. Any frame you like. Take two of its skills off and replace them with something else. Then I'll tell you how and why it's not an objectively better build.

 

Saryn

Miasma + Molt

Redirection, Rush, Fleeting Expertise, Streamline, Flow, Stretch, Intensify, Fast Deflection

That's how I play it: Spammy with some CC. You can even drop Molt for a Blind Rage or Overextended. It may not be the best build, but I can last longer and do more damage in Defense or Survival than any Saryn with all 4 skills equipped.

Again, it's not that the skills themselves are useless and there are still multiple viable builds for any frame, but the superiority of 1 or 2 skill builds cannot be denied! Banshee, Ember, Loki, Mag, Nova, Nyx, Oberon, and Vauban are easy 1 or 2-skills builds. Which frames do you consider to be ones where you have to have them all equipped?

The issue is that builds using 8 or 9 mods specialized around a given frame's best skill(s) is straight up better than a 6 mod build with all 4 skills. Everyone agrees with me, lets not get off topic.

Edited April 10, 2014 by MXultra