Honorable Warriors Without Standards

[Buzkyl]

TL:DR-See bottom of post

 

Firstly, spiffy title don't ya think?

 

Now onto the meat of the matter.

 

 

I'm fairly certain everyone is well aware of the multitude of "buff don't nerf", "nerf x it's broken!" "buff x! y outperforms it!" threads circulating around the forums, many argue this x gun/frame/mode is unbalance (being UP or OP). However i want to raise a question to the forum.

 

What is Balance here?

 

Or to relate to the topic, what are our standards of balance. Because to call something unbalance means it disturbs the equilibrium establish within the game.

 

To put into perspective

"X gun/frame/melee is decent at mid-early level gameplay but very bad at endgame content"

 

The obvious question is what is endgame? 30-35(Pluto)? T3 void monsters? Wave 30 on outer terminus?  And if it under-performs here or easily crushes these circumstances, is it OP, UP or balance?

 

Which brings me to the thought i i honestly don't this game has a set of standards (balancing-wise) to follow increating content or adjusting powerlevels. Another anecdote to consider:
 

"When Both Vauban and Nova were the latest 2 warframes released, the DE mentioned in livestream that they were setting the new bar of power (i.e a standard frames should be compared to), and would buff older frames to that level. Which resulted in buffs for Mag, Rhino and i believe Ember."

 

Now if we look at that statement now, to bring frames to Nova level and pre-bastille nerf Vauban level would break warframe's difficulty. But would it be OP because it trializes 90% of game content?

 

So to what standards do you, entire forum, hold to in judging things as balanced or unbalanced? And do you believe we have a set or standards to go by in balancing items ingame?

 

 

Because i believe people have different perceptions of what they consdier "balanced" and this is where a majority of the flame wars about nerf threads come from.
 

 

TL:DR-Scroll back to top and read entire OP, dummy.

 

 

[NlGHTSHAD3]

When 85% of all tenno consider one weapon to be particularly the best and most of them use it as one of their main weapon it can be considered OP

[kaboomonme]

We would if progression wasn't so messed up. Warframe is practically an RPG now : You farm and grind for gear, upgrade said gear, use that gear to kill mid level baddies to get the strongest gear, then upgrade that gear, use that gear to overcome higher level enemies, etc.

Damage 2.0 was great, but it didn't do what it was supposed to. So here we are, discussing the same topic again, but with barely any ground to discuss it on.

[RoboDoge]

When you see most of players are running around as Rhino or Nova, with Soma and Galatine, you dont find that suspicious? And people using Trinity to solo almost everything with no problem at all.

 

 

Talk more about balance.

[Tienxia]

There is no balance when 2-3 frames/weapons are acknowledged as the absolute best, and the rest are ignored, or in the worst case, looked down on so much that people get kicked for using them.

[Buzkyl]

When you see most of players are running around as Rhino or Nova, with Soma and Galatine, you dont find that suspicious? And people using Trinity to solo almost everything with no problem at all.

 

 

Talk more about balance.

 

Popularity doesn't always means it's unbalance. While i'm not arguing that Nova and Rhino are unbalance in some ways. The notion of Popularity=OP is fallacious, while true here. But still faulty reasoning.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Damage 2.0 was great, but it didn't do what it was supposed to. So here we are, discussing the same topic again, but with barely any ground to discuss it on.

 

Woah woah woah, don't be getting too out there man. Damage 2.0 was a response to the problem of "armor ignore or go home above level 40." For better or worse, after damage 2.0, guns that were previously worthless (Braton Prime, I'm looking at you) become actually useful in Ceres and Pluto.

Even the thing with the rainbow builds was changed - yes you still slot in lots of elemental mods, but which specific mods you slot in matters now, and you don't use the same build for every enemy in the game any more.

I think people who say that Damage 2.0 didn't fix anything are looking back with rose tinted glasses.

 

When you see most of players are running around as Rhino or Nova, with Soma and Galatine, you dont find that suspicious? And people using Trinity to solo almost everything with no problem at all.

 

 

Talk more about balance.

Honestly? No, I don't find that suspicious. Soma is a joy to shoot. Its sounds are fun, its aesthetics are lovely, it does great damage, and that magazine is great. Galatine is the He-man sword. Everyone loves the He-man sword. Rhino is fun to play because unlike most other frames, he doesn't fall victim to unfun mechanics like stunlock. Nova's fun to play because she walks the razor edge between exploding everything and being gunned down like a mook.

I mean yeah they're all powerful weapons and frames, no question. But "These things are highly popular" is no criteria to decide balance on, that's ridiculous.

Like, the Bastet helm for Valkyr is pretty popular. I can't remember the last time I saw a Valkyr that didn't use the Bastet. But it's not OP in the least despite that popularity, for obvious reasons.

[Eruend]

Lang, I don't remember anyone getting kicked for using something or not using something... ever.

 

But then again, I'm rather selective in who I play with for more then just standard missions.

 

If you set your standards to the PuGs who don't understand that anything is effective once you put a potato and several forma into it, then yes. I agree with you. Only on the basis that those guys are morons to start with.

 

As for the topic at hand, I've already stated numerous times in the past that this game doesn't need to keep a strict balance. As long as everything is fun for someone to use, it is valid enough to keep as is. This purely being due to the fact that Warframe is a non-competitive PvE game. Doesn't matter if you aren't the strongest, unless you decide it matters. In which case, balance is moot, since you are actively trying to be better then the rest.

 

The concept of strict balance is something that's only valuable in competitions. If balance was an issue for this game, EVERYONE would be running with nothing but Trinity+Ogris. Forever. But I don't see this. I see all frames used equally and various weapons. Sure, there are some more popular picks, but it's not so overwhelming that you'll see them 3 games in a row on more then 2 players at once.

 

Now, that said, some things need to change for balance's sake, since they hardly ever see play, but again, it doesn't have to be strictly monitored. Can remain UP, can become OP. Just needs to be changed enough to make it viable, and more importantly, fun. Fun enough to be considered something people would pick over the other suits available at a whim. That type of balance. Like Banshee or Ember. I hardly ever see those used.

Edited April 9, 2014 by Eruend

[RoboDoge]

 

Woah woah woah, don't be getting too out there man. Damage 2.0 was a response to the problem of "armor ignore or go home above level 40." For better or worse, after damage 2.0, guns that were previously worthless (Braton Prime, I'm looking at you) become actually useful in Ceres and Pluto.

Even the thing with the rainbow builds was changed - yes you still slot in lots of elemental mods, but which specific mods you slot in matters now, and you don't use the same build for every enemy in the game any more.

I think people who say that Damage 2.0 didn't fix anything are looking back with rose tinted glasses.

 

Honestly? No, I don't find that suspicious. Soma is a joy to shoot. Its sounds are fun, its aesthetics are lovely, it does great damage, and that magazine is great. Galatine is the He-man sword. Everyone loves the He-man sword. Rhino is fun to play because unlike most other frames, he doesn't fall victim to unfun mechanics like stunlock. Nova's fun to play because she walks the razor edge between exploding everything and being gunned down like a mook.

I mean yeah they're all powerful weapons and frames, no question. But "These things are highly popular" is no criteria to decide balance on, that's ridiculous.

Like, the Bastet helm for Valkyr is pretty popular. I can't remember the last time I saw a Valkyr that didn't use the Bastet. But it's not OP in the least despite that popularity, for obvious reasons.

Ash and Oberon are appealing also, why dont people use them? Or Dual Skana with that sleek design.

 

 

There is no balance, there are only 3 frames that are balanced quite well. Loki, Rhino and Nyx. Rest are either completely useless, one trick wonders or generally meh.

 

 

Same as weapons, where Soma, Latron Prime and Boltor Prime reign supreme.

[ZephyrPhantom]

To be fair, Galatine looks like it's going to have a lot of other weapons to match up to by tomorrow with Skana being viable as far as Pluto and Galatine losing it's giant damage charge attacks.

 

We would if progression wasn't so messed up. Warframe is practically an RPG now : You farm and grind for gear, upgrade said gear, use that gear to kill mid level baddies to get the strongest gear, then upgrade that gear, use that gear to overcome higher level enemies, etc.

Damage 2.0 was great, but it didn't do what it was supposed to. So here we are, discussing the same topic again, but with barely any ground to discuss it on.

I agree with this more, though - as things are, the balance system seems to be changing to be more of a tiered MMORPG (with MR being the 'tier') and better weapons being made for players that play in higher level areas. As there's plenty of room for new areas, I think we will continue to see more higher ranked/better power weapons being made.

[-FrostByte-]

outer terminous - laser damage reduction gg you win.

[Ourobor]

The only things I advocate nerfing are things that actively make the game less fun for other people in the cell, like mprime/ogris/penta/blessing. I could care less about the soma because that's a "private" choice in that if you make the choice to carry that gun, it doesn't effect me all that much when I play. Things like mprime and such actively make the game less fun. Often when playing with someone with AOE damage, I just stop playing for the night because it ruins the game that much for me. Those weapons are also the reason I left my first clan because my clan mates spamed them and I didn't like playing with them. If it only effects you, and it's not that ridicious, then go ahead and use the slightly OP weapon. Just please don't steal every single kill in the entire map, or make me invincible for hours.

[Buzkyl]

Ash and Oberon are appealing also, why dont people use them? Or Dual Skana with that sleek design.

 

 

There is no balance, there are only 3 frames that are balanced quite well. Loki, Rhino and Nyx. Rest are either completely useless, one trick wonders or generally meh.

 

 

Same as weapons, where Soma, Latron Prime and Boltor Prime reign supreme.

 

Now how did you come to that criteria? Because they perform well against both 1x enemies to 1xx enemies? If so, is that feat itself balance? Especially for nyx who can control mobs level 500 as easily as she controls mobs of level 2.

[Blatantfool]

When 85% of all tenno consider one weapon to be particularly the best and most of them use it as one of their main weapon it can be considered OP

 

  You can't actually count on this to be true.

 

 The question is still "Is that one weapon far too good or are the rest of the weapons far too crap?"

 

 There aren't really many black and white situations in Game Balance, not the way I see it.

 

 Both sides of the balance argument always have the ability to present some sort of reasoning as to why something is or isn't a problem.

[RoboDoge]

Now how did you come to that criteria? Because they perform well against both 1x enemies to 1xx enemies? If so, is that feat itself balance? Especially for nyx who can control mobs level 500 as easily as she controls mobs of level 2.

Balance, as in having more than 2 useful abilities.

[Tienxia]

Lang, I don't remember anyone getting kicked for using something or not using something... ever.

But then again, I'm rather selective in who I play with for more then just standard missions.

If you set your standards to the PuGs who don't understand that anything is effective once you put a potato and several forma into it, then yes. I agree with you. Only on the basis that those guys are morons to start with.

As for the topic at hand, I've already stated numerous times in the past that this game doesn't need to keep a strict balance. As long as everything is fun for someone to use, it is valid enough to keep as is. This purely being due to the fact that Warframe is a non-competitive PvE game. Doesn't matter if you aren't the strongest, unless you decide it matters. In which case, balance is moot, since you are actively trying to be better then the rest.

The concept of strict balance is something that's only valuable in competitions. If balance was an issue for this game, EVERYONE would be running with nothing but Trinity+Ogris. Forever. But I don't see this. I see all frames used equally and various weapons. Sure, there are some more popular picks, but it's not so overwhelming that you'll see them 3 games in a row on more then 2 players at once.

Now, that said, some things need to change for balance's sake, since they hardly ever see play, but again, it doesn't have to be strictly monitored. Can remain UP, can become OP. Just needs to be changed enough to make it viable, and more importantly, fun. Like Banshee.

There are quite a bit of dummies who get very touchy about what frames/weapons you can or cannot bring into a void/derelict mission (no Ash, Excalibur, Braton, etc.)

But yeah, these only really happen in PUGs. However, this still does not justify that attitude.

Edited April 9, 2014 by LangFu

[Buzkyl]

Balance, as in having more than 2 useful abilities.

 

What of Zephyr? Vauban?? Volt? By your criteria many frames can be considered balance.

[RoboDoge]

There are quite a bit of dummies who get very touchy about what frames/weapons you can or cannot bring into a void/derelict mission (no Ash, Excalibur, Braton, etc.)

But yeah, these only really happen in PUGs. However, this still does not justify that attitude.

As i said for millions times already, PUGs are horrible. If you can, avoid them.

[RoboDoge]

What of Zephyr? Vauban?? Volt? By your criteria many frames can be considered balance.

I said more than 2. Zephyr, Tornado and mayne Turbulence. Vauban, Vortex and Bastille. Volt, Electric Shield only.

 

 

I intentionally didnt count movement powers because they arent essential.

[Buzkyl]

While i can respect your views, saying they aren't essential is a personal opinion.

[Ourobor]

I said more than 2. Zephyr, Tornado and mayne Turbulence. Vauban, Vortex and Bastille. Volt, Electric Shield only.

 

 

I intentionally didnt count movement powers because they arent essential.

I use all of both Zephyr's and Volt's abilities on a regular basis. They're all good. The only reason to not use them is because you've min-maxed your frame so much that only half the abilities work well and the others are awful. In which case, that's as intended. Corrupted mods are supposed to have a negative impact as well as a positive. If you only call frames who's abilities aren't effected by them, what's the point in corrupted mods at all?

[RoboDoge]

I use all of both Zephyr's and Volt's abilities on a regular basis. They're all good. The only reason to not use them is because you've min-maxed your frame so much that only half the abilities work well and the others are awful. In which case, that's as intended. Corrupted mods are supposed to have a negative impact as well as a positive. If you only call frames who's abilities aren't effected by them, what's the point in corrupted mods at all?

Nah, problem is that is use mobs over level 100 ( dont think i am bragging or anything, i rarely do high end stuff ) and my views are based on that. In my opinion, if frame doesnt have any strong crowdcontrol ability or something like Antimatter drop that can be useful at those levels, i wont say its viable.

 

 

Movement based powers dont impress me mostly because i can move around without them pretty easily.

 

 

 

Depending on what you play and what levels of mobs you play, any frame can be viable. But truth is that some frames are more balanced than others, and unbalanced ones are somewhat useless at some point. Ash and Oberon being one of them for now. If you dont have high scaling ability/abilities, no matter what you do you will be obsolete at some point.

[Buzkyl]

Nah, problem is that is use mobs over level 100 ( dont think i am bragging or anything, i rarely do high end stuff ) and my views are based on that. In my opinion, if frame doesnt have any strong crowdcontrol ability or something like Antimatter drop that can be useful at those levels, i wont say its viable.

 

 

Movement based powers dont impress me mostly because i can move around without them pretty easily.

 

 

 

Depending on what you play and what levels of mobs you play, any frame can be viable. But truth is that some frames are more balanced than others, and unbalanced ones are somewhat useless at some point. Ash and Oberon being one of them for now. If you dont have high scaling ability/abilities, no matter what you do you will be obsolete at some point.

 

But does that point really matter? In a game where at best the most difficult enemies is in the 60s, is falling off at 120 bad? And if many frames do fall of at that point, are they UP or are the one's that don't, OP?

 

Just playing Devil's Advocate here.

[Ourobor]

Nah, problem is that is use mobs over level 100 ( dont think i am bragging or anything, i rarely do high end stuff ) and my views are based on that. In my opinion, if frame doesnt have any strong crowdcontrol ability or something like Antimatter drop that can be useful at those levels, i wont say its viable.

 

 

Movement based powers dont impress me mostly because i can move around without them pretty easily.

 

 

 

Depending on what you play and what levels of mobs you play, any frame can be viable. But truth is that some frames are more balanced than others, and unbalanced ones are somewhat useless at some point. Ash and Oberon being one of them for now. If you dont have high scaling ability/abilities, no matter what you do you will be obsolete at some point.

I've noticed that even enemies with hitscan weapons lose accuracy if you move fast enough. Volt can dodge a lot of pain just by moving fast.

And anyway, the end game enemies are level 35ish. Sure you can get much higher in survival or defense, but the highest level of anything that isn't survival or ED is around 35-40. After that the enemies are just gaining numbers and nothing else. I wouldn't call that endgame, just a deterrent to keep you from staying in those modes forever. At those levels, most warframe abilities still work well, backing up that claim. Lastly, the only reason you can play against those enemies is because they are at the absolute limit of how far you can get in an infinitely scaling gamemode. Of course few things will be good at that level because you're at the limit of what's possible to do. To balance against that would be foolish.

[kaboomonme]

 

Woah woah woah, don't be getting too out there man. Damage 2.0 was a response to the problem of "armor ignore or go home above level 40." For better or worse, after damage 2.0, guns that were previously worthless (Braton Prime, I'm looking at you) become actually useful in Ceres and Pluto.

Even the thing with the rainbow builds was changed - yes you still slot in lots of elemental mods, but which specific mods you slot in matters now, and you don't use the same build for every enemy in the game any more.

I think people who say that Damage 2.0 didn't fix anything are looking back with rose tinted glasses.

Not saying Damage 2.0 didn't fix anything. It was great, it fixed a good deal of things people were complaining about, it gave the game more variety, it made some weapons more viable. I personally despised Rainbow builds.

It didn't eliminate "Vertical Progression" so to speak. The game isn't skill-based, it's level-based. You put in the time and effort to farm/grind, you do better. Player skill contributes minimally to the overall performance. 

Take Skyrim as an example of an RPG. Could it be said that it's balance? Not really, because there's always the highest-tier. most sought after and most difficult to craft weapon/armor sets (Dragonbone, Dragonscale, Daedric). Once you progressed far enough, or have spent time/money gathering the materials, you will be able to craft them, and your older weapons/armor become outclassed completely, and thus become obsolete.

So far this seems to be the direction Warframe is heading towards. DE mentioned this in 1 or 2 older livestreams, but it seems to be an abandoned cause now. I can only hope this system works out in the long run.

They mentioned Endgame a few times before, and that they were going to balance the game around Endgame. So far, I really don't see that happening. Players are only content when their guns and abilities ROFLstomp mobs, and any others that take slightly longer are considered "not-viable:

.. so what happens when endgame is balanced around ROFLstomp weapons/frames? What will happen to those that were once considered "viable"? Will they not be considered completely obsolete? I can only hope they are able to balance everything out by then, and settle on what kind of endgame they want. Skill doesn't affect difficulty, and in turn difficulty affects viability, blah blah blah.

Which is why I'm one of the people in favour of the new Frost Snowglobe. It encourages thinking, when you should deploy it and how effective it will be in what situation. Rewarding skill is what this game needs more of, though I can see a large majority of players don't agree (as seen by the hate towards Snowglobe). 

You can say that skills matter a good bit, but does it really? Obviously you throw an infant and an adult to play against each other and you'll see a huge difference, but otherwise, as long as you understand how skills work, they don't really take that much brainpower to use well do they? A good majority just involved pushing a button when there are enemies.

One could say that there is still some thinking and skill involved in deploying AoE or directional/aimed skills. That much I agreed with. Then Nova happened. Less thinking, more oomph, maximum popularity. Her M prime mainly the problem. Just press 4 when you are in trouble, and all your problems go away. As long as you have the right mods, of course.

Ahh.. there. I'm ranting again. I'll stop now.

Edited April 9, 2014 by kaboomonme