Idea To Fix Stance Drops And Rng

[Tsukinoki]

(Almost)everyone is (IMHO rightfully) angry at how DE decided to handle the melee stances and how they drop from enemies.

So how about instead of having them drop from enemies at all (and yet still be mods)?

Make use of the proficiency/mastery challenges.

What would that mean?

Lets take a look at the skana. You start out with no stances for it. Upon leveling it to 10 and getting "Blade Proficiency I" you get your first stance as well and can now use it. When you get to rank 20 you get "Blade Proficiency II" and a second stance for the blade weapons.

Now this does two things:

1) Makes the stances possible to get through grinding without having to worry about a rare mod from rare enemies. You can work towards the mods and actually get them through work and not luck.

2) Opens up the possibilities for 4 more stancers per weapon type without cluttering any drop tables.

Sure, for now we only have 2 stances per melee weapon, but they could easily add more using this method with absolutely no draw-backs.

Now, this will mean that they will need to make a few changes:

1) Add more challenges.

This will be in order to handle Scythes, Katanas, and to separate the challenges for daggers/dual daggers and the heavy weapons to fit with how the stance mods are different for all of those.

2) Rebalance the number of weapons needed to get those challenges

This is mostly for the weapon categories that only have 1 or 2 weapons in them.

And they could still have RNG for some of the stances. Keep some super awesome and special stances as rare drops from bosses or whatever, but allow players to earn the ability to use the melee system without having to rely on luck and grinding.

Sure, this will give vets a lot of stances to begin with if this change is ever made, but I dont see that as being too much of an issue. Especially considering that a new player can go "I want X stance because I like the combos. I just have to use that weapon and I can get it? Cool" and they dont have to go "I want X stance because of its combo. So I need to grind Y rare enemy for Z rare mod drop which may not happen in dozens of hours...."

And it also makes a lot of sense. The stances and how they enable combos show that you've learned how to use the weapon effectively in combat in different styles. It only makes sense that by getting the proficiency/mastery challenges you're proving that you know how to use the weapons and should be able to use the combos from that.

And please note that this is just a rough idea that definitely needs fine-tuning of some sort. Please give feedback.

EDIT:

If DE is really hard set on having us do some work/whatever to unlock the stances:

Besides having the stances being unlocked by just going through the challenges for them, maybe adding for some stances the requirement of passing essentially a special melee test (similar to MR tests) when you beat the challenge? That way even vets would take some time to unlock all of the stances, but at least they would be able to unlock the ones that they are interested in.

It would also allow DE to make the fancier/better/longer stances/combos behind harder tests so there is some work in getting them?

Just a random idea for those to toss around that don't think we should just be given everything right away....and while this wouldn't be preferred I can see DE being a bit more interested in this spin maybe.

AGAIN: I would prefer if this last idea isn't implemented, but honestly it's still far better than whats happening currently.

Edited April 10, 2014 by Tsukinoki

[Anunymau5]

This... Is actually an amazing idea. DE IMPLEMENT THIS PLEASE!

[LukeAura]

I like this idea actually! 
Stance mods won't ever feel right while drop focused. They're much too of a core gameplay element for that.
Your system will tie them primarily to weapon type proficiency, which is pretty logical. And then the few left as rare boss drops will be special bonuses and not as if they're necessary.
 

[Tsukinoki]

@LukeAura

That's the idea.

Core gameplay should never come from pure RNG. Let the player earn it by actually using that core gameplay element. Leave the extra special things as boss drops but let the players get the vast majority of it from actually playing the game and using the elements involved.

[Tsukinoki]

Bumping with another point of discussion added to the OP.

Edited April 10, 2014 by Tsukinoki

[notionphil]

/signed

 

this is pretty much the way attacks have unlocked in games since the days of Double Dragon for NES. Yes, 8 Bit Nintendo.

 

I seriously can't imagine how or why this is not how we unlock things here.

[LukeAura]

I seriously can't imagine how or why this is not how we unlock things here.

I don't know about anything else in the game, but I'm really holding out hope U13 was more unfinished than we thought and that being thrown in to the drop tables was just a quick way of at least giving us access to the stance mods without their thought out proper implementation. Because it seems like a universal drop in mods has happened in general, and it might be because they only had time to do a quick squeeze to get the stances in.

[BlueSilkMetallic]

more mastery challenges ?

i would be glad if mastery challenges would be removed complete XD

 

stance mods as normal drops ?

works for me.

[Tsukinoki]

@Chupachab

I just added that melee test thing as an idea in case DE just *has* to have us do some extra work to get to the stances.

As I stated before that edit I would much rather prefer that we get the stance mods (which are a CORE gameplay element) by just using the weapon and getting those proficiency/mastery challenges achivements out of the way (you know the popup when you level a weapon to 30 and if its the first one of that kind it says "X Proficiency III") that come by actually playing the game and using what they give you.

If you want to know the challenges I'm talking about view the steam achievement list and you'll see a bunch of weapon achievements. Have the stances come from getting those.

Edited April 10, 2014 by Tsukinoki

[goatwithbenefits]

Great idea, I like it. Challenges get another purpose other than bragging rights, too. On top of that you also unlock mods related to what you invest your time in.

 

The mastery rank challenge idea is also fairly interesting, though it would require a lot more effort than the tedious grinding for what you want. As easy as Warframe's combos are, they're still an edge above grinding in difficulty. To help that out you could have a practice room to try out your stances and combos (if possible, even with an in-session arsenal that allows you to mod your equipment on the fly). That would at least be a more elegant solution than haunting Terminus for testing gear.

[Tsukinoki]

@goatwithbenefits

I know that the melee test to get the stances is a bit out there, but that's honestly just to give DE another idea if they think that we need to do something extra to get the stance mods. I would rather you earn the stances by using the weapon and the practice and training to use the combo's comes from actually getting and unlocking them.

I hope that by giving DE 2 (and hopefully more as people suggest them) options for how to get to the stance mods they might choose one of them at least.

[goatwithbenefits]

@goatwithbenefits

I know that the melee test to get the stances is a bit out there, but that's honestly just to give DE another idea if they think that we need to do something extra to get the stance mods. I would rather you earn the stances by using the weapon and the practice and training to use the combo's comes from actually getting and unlocking them.

I hope that by giving DE 2 (and hopefully more as people suggest them) options for how to get to the stance mods they might choose one of them at least.

Progression is a good keyword here. After some brief brainstorming I came up with this little idea:

 

You would have a node in the star chart, a previously hidden and unreachable Orokin dojo (think Orokin vaults except the whole key jazz, bigger and with their own level). Once discovered (by unlocking the node connected to it) you would have to take on a force of Grineer/Corpus raiders to defend the dojo against them. That could be the equivalent to the proficiency test, though not neccessarily through melee.

After 'proving your worth' that way you would enter the dojo yourself and regain part of your Tenno's lost memory (a good tie-in to the lore right here IMO), giving you access to a certain stance or set of stances. Set of stances because there already are quite a few around and just a few intact dojos would be best.

[Tsukinoki]

@goatwithbenefits

That does bring up something though, a slight modification if you'll allow me:

A node like the dojo floating around the edge of the solar system.

You click on it and have two options

-If you have leveled up your mastery to a rank up point you can enter to do your mastery test

-If you have one of the proficiency/mastery challenges done you can enter to unlock a new stance relating to the challenge you've completed

If you have neither available you cant do anything there.

And that way it wouldn't need to be connected to any node or require unlocking or anything. It would just be available for doing the test whenever you want, and for new players would catch their attention more than just a flashing mastery rank bar in the upper left hand corner of the screen.

Edited April 10, 2014 by Tsukinoki

[BrazilianJoe]

+1

 

Initial stances should be unlockable by leveling up weapons, and only uber stances should be behing RNG.

[(PSN)Simba_KillzZ]

everyone needs to back this up.

[Tsukinoki]

@BrazilianJoe

And even with 'uber' stances being behind an RNG grind wall, I think that something either equal to, or very *very* close, it should be available by getting up the "X Mastery III" challenge because that shows that you've leveled up a ton of those weapons to R30 and you should know how to use them to their fullest.

[DaWolv]

They could have better variants of the regular stances as rare drops from certain rare mobs/bosses to keep some RNG goodness in there.

But this idea is a 1000 times better than what's going on now!

[Tsukinoki]

@DaWolv

And I don't really see an issue with that all that much. I am of the belief that skill/work should get to the better stances and not luck, but I can understand locking away the very best behind a grindwall.

As long as a core component of gameplay is not locked behind an RNG wall and only additions to that element are then that's perfectly fine.

Sure, make the better stuff RNG and luck locked behind bosses/rare mobs/whatever but let people get to the actual meat of it by just playing your game and not having to worry about grinding.

[goatwithbenefits]

@goatwithbenefits

That does bring up something though, a slight modification if you'll allow me:

A node like the dojo floating around the edge of the solar system.

You click on it and have two options

-If you have leveled up your mastery to a rank up point you can enter to do your mastery test

-If you have one of the proficiency/mastery challenges done you can enter to unlock a new stance relating to the challenge you've completed

If you have neither available you cant do anything there.

And that way it wouldn't need to be connected to any node or require unlocking or anything. It would just be available for doing the test whenever you want, and for new players would catch their attention more than just a flashing mastery rank bar in the upper left hand corner of the screen.

Took me long enough to respond. Nice idea. I had thought of the nodes being scattered around the star chart because it would give the player an incentive to work towards that very node, progressing through the star chart. Though that could always lead to the player linearizing their equipment choice.

Having neither enabled in that dojo could allow you to head there for target practice, testing builds and stances out like the practice area I've mentioned before.

[Tsukinoki]

@goatwithbenefits

That option would also work quite well and would give everyone the target practice areas that they keep asking for.

Good idea.

[Mokkania]

I disagree with your idea itself, but I do agree that putting stances on mostly uncommon ennemies is not very nice.

Still, I think strange that people were thinking -> U13, I'll get the stances I want in the next two days, since they are mod, they are just like the others mods either something you chance upon or something you farm for.

When you farm for it it doesn't goes like that : I want rage or quick thinking or a rare sentinel mod, I farm and I'll get it in X determined time, it's how luck work some people get it very easily and some won't. Stances are nice but they are not mandatory or not something you should just get like that when you want, wouldn't that be too easy?  Unlike Hek it's not double rng just rng farming like people adore so much.

[Tsukinoki]

@Mokkania
And why do you disagree with my idea?  Any feedback would be helpful.


And the fact is is that we didn't know they would just be a normal mod.  Considering the stances and combos are a *core gameplay element* most people thought we would have much faster gaurenteed access to them.  No reason to think otherwise.

[Vargras]

Going to add in my own suggestion here:

 

Instead of doing this, add stance mods to the alert pool, as well as the defense and survival reward pools.

[Mokkania]

@Mokkania

And why do you disagree with my idea?  Any feedback would be helpful.

And the fact is is that we didn't know they would just be a normal mod.  Considering the stances and combos are a *core gameplay element* most people thought we would have much faster gaurenteed access to them.  No reason to think otherwise.

Well I disagree mostly because it would be too easy.

 

 

Right now the thing about melee is quite delicate, I do know that DE presented the combos as a core mechanic for Melee 2.0 but at the same time to ensure that melee would be viable despite the disadvantages against guns, the melee weapons got quite the buffs and things got a bit strange.

 

Before the update some people would still more or less use melee and with mods it could do some not halfbad damage, in early game it wouldn't beat guns but were still somewhat usable. Now with the buff, I can't confirm since I'm not experiencing personally but new players even without the stances mod get buffed melee weapons that might possibly have too much damage for their level/progression. (need some data feedback)

On another note there is that thread about people saying that they hardly use the combos because they 1-2 shot every ennemies with their melee which more or less show that the stances mods are not forcibly deemed indispensables in practice.

 

 

As for your suggestion while I don't agree with it, somewhat acceptable IMO would be 1 stance mod per weapon maybe even with a test for more cool so that stance don't rain on new players and vets.

Since someone put his idea, I'll put a random one : keeping the way it is right now but adding some basic combos (from the stance system) to the weapons and the advanced ones with the stance mods.

[Dawntess]

I don't think RNG is anything that 'should' be fixed, What we're dealing with here, is children that can just NOT wait to get their hands on new toys, They can't influence the speed of which they get these( although doing about 4/5 missions gave me 3 stance mods already).

 

The core of the problem is that once you have stands mods and you want to try it out, the combo system feels so stiff, You're often a lot better off just smashing E like before, rather than completing complex pause / hold-based combo's.

The 'end hit' as they say just feels so underwhelming, as far as i could tell it only does 30 to 40% more damage than 'normal' hits, but takes up almost 3 times more time than just spamming E.

 

This makes switching to melee not really much of a 'thing', and i often still find myself stuck shooting guns against enemies that knocback too much.

 

Melee in general however has been made a lot more viable, But that is just a damage boost scaleable by a combo system, WE didn't need an entire plethora of animations that work stiff to get that ball rolling.

 

Don't get me wrong however, i love the new system, it just doesn't feel 'right', it feels very stiff, The whole Devil may cry 'theme' they said they got going on is FAR too overstated, and is barely the case in reality.