A Rng 2.0 Meritocratic And Fair

[dadaddadada]

WARNING: wall of text and math ahead.

Index:
1) intro
2) math
3) managing single enemies/bosses rewards
4) mission rewards
5) Resources are different
6) discussion on additional priority to items that players don't have
7) conclusions


INTRO
Several concepts for new rewarding systems have been suggested. I particularly like this one that rewards the player in cycles, instead of sheer luck:
https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/165904-rng-20-no-more-over-1000-hours-and-no-drop/
But my hope was more of a difficulty-based rewarding system, that could still maintain its base over DE's beloved RNG.

The concept is to change the current RNG system so that you get rewarded for completing objectives with low-conclave level weaponry.
This includes completing missions, killing single enemies, completing affinity challenges and pretty much anything else that is based on RNG rewards in Warframe.
The aim of this new system is to make the game more challenging and more rewarding for your effort and skills needed to complete missions with less firepower.

I already posted about such a system in this thread:
https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/210501-drop-rates-depending-on-average-conclave-rating-of-the-cell/
But it was more raw and lacking examples.
Just to let the moderators know.


MATH
The current RNG system is based on simple loot tables, where every item has a fixed chance to drop in any given situation.
Instead, I want to present the concept of a dynamic loot table, that modifies its drop rates based on the conclave level of the most used weapon(s) used to complete an objective.

In general, lets take a loot table composed of N items each with its own drop rate. Sort said items by drop rate (aka. Rarity) and normalize them so that the sum of all drop rates is 100%.

Common
Item A: 33%
Item B: 20%
Item C: 17%
Item D: 15%
Item E: 10%
Item F: 5%
Rare

Total sum is 100.

The idea is to make rare items more likely to drop by re-weighting of the rates.
We do that by adding a constant increment to all the items as exemplified below:

Increment factor = 1%

Common
Item A: 33% + 1% = 34%
Item B: 20% + 2% = 22%
Item C: 17% + 3% = 20%
Item D: 15% + 4% = 19%
Item E: 10% + 5% = 15%
Item F:  5% + 6% = 11%
Rare

Total sum is 121.

Normalized:

Common
Item A: 34/121*100 = 28,1%
Item B: 22/121*100 = 18,2%
Item C: 20/121*100 = 16,5%
Item D: 19/121*100 = 15,7%
Item E: 15/121*100 = 12,4%
Item F: 11/121*100 =  9,1%
Rare

Total sum is 100 as expected.

Now as you can tell, the drop rate of the rarest item almost doubled and the most common items suffered from the weighting.
This was just an example. In the next chapter we discuss how much the Increment Factor has to change on various situations and with varying conclave levels of weapons in a team.


MANAGING SINGLE ENEMIES/BOSSES REWARDS
The simplest situation where drop tables apply are the resources/mods/parts/blueprints obtained by killing single enemies.
The idea is that if you kill an enemy with low-conclave weapons you shall be rewarded more than killing it with a 800 per-hit Soma. One has a huge selection of possible rewards:

- More shared XP
- higher chance to drop rare items as explained above (greater Increment Factor)
- More credits
- More resources (An Oxium Osprey killed with an unmodded Lato would drop more that 1 or 2 oxium. This is good for you and your team).
...

But first, to calculate the additional reward we have to first decide how much the reward shall scale with the damage dealt with different weapons to single enemies.
This is pretty hard to explain. A boss for example is likely to be taken down by more than one player and by more than one weapon. How the system has to react with so many different weapons with different conclave ratings?
This is a pretty ethical question. There is no correct answer.

One can make a system where only the act of killing the enemy triggers the full reward by taking into consideration only the last bullet that caused death.
This approach allows and rewards situation where a powerful weapon reduces the boss health down to 1% and another player with an unmodded Lato can lay the final shot thus triggering the buffed reward.
The boss will be taken down quickly in this way, more or less like it's happening right now, but this pushes a more rich Coop experience in boss fighting as the team has to coordinate both powerful attacks and weaker attacks.

Another system is to assign the reward increment based on all the damage dealt by all the weapons used in said boss fight.
This will make boss fight extremely harder, as to get the full reward, all the weapons used to attack the boss must be low-conclave.

These ideas can apply not only to bosses, but to every single enemy that has a drop chance.


MISSION REWARDS
End mission rewards deserve a more delicate analysis, as all weapons and warframes too have weight on the decision of the reward.
The new system will handle them as follows.

The Increment Factor is calculated in 2 passes:
In the first one, only weapons are considered.
All the weapons of the team are put side-by-side each showing its respective conclave level and its damage/kills/usage stats.
Needless to say, low-conclave weapons with their usage stat should have a heavier impact on the final result.

Note: it would be impossible to cheat by putting together an arsenal where all the weapons are low-conclave except one OP weapon which is used most.
The system would flag the player as "only used OP weapons" and thus the rewards are debuffed.

Warframes are even more difficult to manage.
The impact of a warframe during the battle is something which cannot be easily calculated. You ARE supposed to use the warframe in a game called "Warframe".

Consider the following:
Do the arithmetic mean of the conclave ratings of all the warframes. Only thing, the warframe with the most conclave counts as if it is elevated to the 1,1 power.
This prevents conditions where all the players carry low-conclave frames and weapons except one that has only an OP warframe. That OP warframe can make a huge difference and thus has to have a more important weight.

Finally, the partial scores of weapons and frames are mixed together to obtain the final Increment. There are a million and one ways to compute the final score of the team. I leave this calculation to the fantasy of the reader.


RESOURCES ARE DIFFERENT
Because resources come in quantities, it can be trickier to scale them in a loot table.
Given this (not real) loot table for a single enemy:

20x ammo: 35%
100x Ferrite: 25%
1x Detinite ampule: 20%
1x Mod: 10%
Nothing: 10%

the resources can be distributed to better make use of the new system:
(totally random values)

10x ammo: 20%
20x Ferrite: 15%
Nothing: 15%
20x ammo: 12%
1x Common Mod: 10%
1x Detonite ampule: 7%
100x Ferrite: 6%
2x Detonite ampule: 5%
1x Neurodes: 4%
1x UnCommon Mod: 3%
full ammo restore: 2%
1x Rare Mod: 1%

The more the entries, the more fair the math behind will be.
I put generic "ammo" entries because I believe that if you kill an enemy that uses pistols, its probably better to make that enemy drop more pistol ammo than say shotgun ammo.
But that was unrelated.

I like the Oxium Osprey example:

1x Oxium: 45%
3x Oxium: 20%
20x ammo: 20%
5x Oxium: 10%
10x Oxium: 4%
1x Rare mod: 1%

If an enemy is wanted to drop more items when killed, just apply more times the above tables.

 

ADDITIONAL PRIORITY TO ITEMS THAT PLAYERS DON'T HAVE
An item has more chances to drop if many players in the team lack it in their inventory/foundry.
This shall apply in a mandatory manner to Harvester/Stalker/G3 weapon drops that have an equal drop rate.

A note shall be said about the concept of "needed item".
I don't think that changing the RNG system to an I-need-that-item-so-drop-it-now-pls system would be a good idea.
This is because the purpose of this post and the enhanched RNG system explained here is to reward players that use non-OP weaponry and thus completing missions "the hard way".
So a system solely built around the concept of rewarding players with the needed items straight away is wrong.
Instead, it is entirely possible to have a more meritocratic idea that states: "I give you more chance to drop the item you need if you use low-conclave weaponry".
The "item you need" can be more important that the rarest item obtainable in the game.

The perfect RNG system would be a good balance of a set of items being choosen by "needed item" and another set of item selected by "higher chance for rare item".
For example, the Stalker blueprints or weapon/warframe parts are good candidates for dropping by needed item, while resources and mods can just rely on the RNG system above.


CONCLUSIONS
I believe that a revolution of the RNG system as illustraded can bring pretty much only positive side effects.
The only negatives I can think of come from faulted implementation of the concepts. But well, implementation issues can be fixed so no big deal.

It will suddenly bring a more relevant difficulty factor on the whole game, as to get the goodies you need to play with less firepower and more skills.
Attempts to take as more advantage as possible from the system to maximize rare drop rates with carefully picked arsenals will only add Coop involvement.

Lets sat that with the current RNG system a player had to do 6x exterminate missions to get the needed reward.
Lets say that the grind lasted 20 minutes in total.
Because the player most likely used OP weaponry to rush the missions, he will get bored quickly.

Lets say now that the above RNG system is implemented.
Lets say that the player choosed low-conclave weapons to get an higher chance to get the reward.
The grind will last 20 minutes as before... but now, the player completed just 3x exterminate missions, because the increased difficulty factor also made the missions last longer for obvious reasons.

DE is happy, because the players will statistically get a reward in the same amount of time as before (if the tables are well balanced).
Players are happy, because the new system will effectively convert a percentage of grind into difficulty/Coop involvement.

 

... and if you insist with using OP weaponry, you shall go high level. The system scales perfectly.

 

Apologies for my simplistic language. I just feel the urge to be direct sometimes.

Edited April 12, 2014 by dadaddadada

[dadaddadada]

bump. added some more details.

[dadaddadada]

Really? No one wanna take a bite?

C'mon people. I know you are not that shy.

[dadaddadada]

Suddenly nobody cares anymore about improving the rng system...

[dadaddadada]

So... my suggestion is so bad that it doesn't deserve even a single reply?

I'm feeling lonely :(

[KidCinema]

That wall of text is scaring people, haha.

 

This would make the game less frustrating (and add a bit more depth to the combat), but the sad part is that it will make farming over-all much easier (for the smart players) and as a consequence reduce revenue. Except in the case where one would have to bring weaker weapons to void/derelict missions and have to leave sooner due to low firepower, but even still farming may be a bit easier because you wouldn't have to stay so long in the first place. 

Regardless, I think this is a very interesting solution and DE should consider this during their brainstorming.

[dadaddadada]

That wall of text is scaring people, haha.

 

This would make the game less frustrating (and add a bit more depth to the combat), but the sad part is that it will make farming over-all much easier (for the smart players) and as a consequence reduce revenue. Except in the case where one would have to bring weaker weapons to void/derelict missions and have to leave sooner due to low firepower, but even still farming may be a bit easier because you wouldn't have to stay so long in the first place. 

Regardless, I think this is a very interesting solution and DE should consider this during their brainstorming.

 

Hi and thank you for provinding feedback :)

 

At least another person exposed your same argument so perhaps I've not explained clearly this point in the post.

 

Let me be obvious for a moment. You can't do such a thing as "quit earlier" in capture/exterminate missions, or in survivals/defense if the reward you are looking for drops, for example, as a Tier 3 reward (20 minutes/15 waves in).

 

Much probably, you are just refering to resource farming.

 

Lets assume that you have built a weapon to match exactly lvl 20 enemies. So that killing a lvl 20 enemy with said weapon will not trigger a buffed reward nor a debuffed reward. Neutral loot tables. This means that up to until enemies get to level 20, you will receive less total resources than the old RNG would have provided. Just afterwards resource drops get buffed and they start to catch up with the old RNG.

 

Its fair enough if you keep into account that you would have to face the consequences of the low-conclave builds. You will get killed more often and missions would fail more often.

[Letter13]

I'm a bit surprised that this thread hasn't seen more views. It's a really well thought out idea for drops and rewards. The math is sound as well. 

 

As for resources, I'm not too sure if the new system needs to be applied to ammo and resource drops, as those aren't as much of an issue (the rare resources like Orokin cells, Neurodes, Neural Sensors, etc are an issue, so possibly this weighted system can impact the rare resources rather than the common/uncommon/ammo resources?).

[Blatantfool]

+1 for thinking outside the box a bit. I don't think I've ever seen this sort of idea given detail like this on the forums before.

 

 I'm in the same boat as Letter. I'm fairly impressed.

 

 Though I'm not a big numbers guy. I can't give much trustworthy feedback about your numbers.

 

 

 If I had to ask a question I suppose it'd be: What sort of effect would you expect this to have on the game in regards to things like high traffic farm zones (maps that are considered best to farm. You probably know what I'm talking about. Kappa, ect. Easy missions with high returns already) that are already lauded for being easy? How about endless gametypes like Survival? 

 

 Since there is both a 'too much' and a 'too little' grind it comes to mind. 

[dadaddadada]

I'm a bit surprised that this thread hasn't seen more views. It's a really well thought out idea for drops and rewards. The math is sound as well. 

 

As for resources, I'm not too sure if the new system needs to be applied to ammo and resource drops, as those aren't as much of an issue (the rare resources like Orokin cells, Neurodes, Neural Sensors, etc are an issue, so possibly this weighted system can impact the rare resources rather than the common/uncommon/ammo resources?).

 

Lets just say that mission rewards and boss/stalkers drops are the priority.

Whether if the system gets implemented for every single enemy and for every single drop its of less importance.

 

Yes, probably weighted ammo drops are a bit too pushed, but its perfectly doable to apply it just to a small set of items.

 

+1 for thinking outside the box a bit. I don't think I've ever seen this sort of idea given detail like this on the forums before.

 

 I'm in the same boat as Letter. I'm fairly impressed.

 

 Though I'm not a big numbers guy. I can't give much trustworthy feedback about your numbers.

 

 

 If I had to ask a question I suppose it'd be: What sort of effect would you expect this to have on the game in regards to things like high traffic farm zones (maps that are considered best to farm. You probably know what I'm talking about. Kappa, ect. Easy missions with high returns already) that are already lauded for being easy? How about endless gametypes like Survival? 

 

 Since there is both a 'too much' and a 'too little' grind it comes to mind. 

 

Thank you.

 

About endless survivals, while farming, I expect them to become suddenly both more difficult and more rewarding, which is what people want yes?

 

Imagine people attempting a T3Surv with unmodded bratons. "Good luck" is all of my psycological support i can afford to give :)

 

But if you just want to get to the leaderboards and you care less about rewards, you will bring the big guns just like before. For the sake of versatility.

 

About heavy farming zones, I would like to see mastery 15 people struggling to kill such low level enemies. The coop involvment would be substantial to the success of every single mission. The whole point of the new system is to make rush with powerful weapons harder (if the mission is not rush-able, lets make every minute of it worth the time), so those missions like kappa will immediately feel the change.

At least, people would run away from the console on kappa much less I hope.

 

As a last notice, I want to specify that that new system would not wipe out completely the old pure RNG. There will still be a layer of luck and chance to take into account. Just... a bit less.

Whether there is too much grind or too little grind totally depends on how the devs would implement the thing. No one can predict this.

Edited May 22, 2014 by dadaddadada

[Letter13]

Moved over to Fan Concepts, as it would probably work a bit better there.

[Blackout751]

This is... a lot nicer prospect than the RNG Gods of Warframe at present. It would make everything a Hek of a lot easier to find and reward you for taking up the challenge - sort of like an endgame placeholder, in a way, for those who need a reward of some sort.

 

Or am I making incorrect analogies and comments?

[(PSN)luminousvoid26]

I like this idea. I cannot say that I actually read it all but I skimmed the important bits. DE would have to figure out a way to counterbalance the decrease in necessary grinding to provide further replayability and revenue though potentially. Perhaps a trial run with a few veteran players, a few mid level players, and a few new players that live near the studio to test it's effects?

[Quiet_Time1]

 

But in all seriousness, this sounds like a nice idea, but I doubt DE will listen or implement it.

Edited May 24, 2014 by Amethyst.zero

[dadaddadada]

This is... a lot nicer prospect than the RNG Gods of Warframe at present. It would make everything a Hek of a lot easier to find and reward you for taking up the challenge - sort of like an endgame placeholder, in a way, for those who need a reward of some sort.

 

Or am I making incorrect analogies and comments?

 

Thing is, you are almost always looking for rewards and farming for something in warframe with a tiny percentage of play reserved to endgame content. This idea is a way to make the whole farming adventure more interesting in the first place.

 

I like this idea. I cannot say that I actually read it all but I skimmed the important bits. DE would have to figure out a way to counterbalance the decrease in necessary grinding to provide further replayability and revenue though potentially. Perhaps a trial run with a few veteran players, a few mid level players, and a few new players that live near the studio to test it's effects?

 

How the idea gets implemented is totally up to the devs. Statistically, ideally, I built my system in such a way that it would not provide any kind of benefit nor decrease in the revenue in comparison with the current system. If the devs are smart enough to implement a similar system, make it work well AND make it more F2P-efficient then hands down.

 

But in all seriousness, this sounds like a nice idea, but I doubt DE will listen or implement it.

 

Afaik, in devstream 29 they talked a lot about some sort of 'loot progression' to be applied in a future event (the more you go on -> rewards buffed), which is just sooo close to the purpose that my idea would fullfill. Only thing, my idea is still better because its more versatile, it can be applied to ferrite drops from grineer units to rhino prime chassis rewards on T3S. From mercury to pluto.

 

DE IS actively interested in trying new rng systems. They are just not having the right idea.

[ukovalian]

the [ spoiler ] [/ spoiler ]  (no spaces) could help

[kimahn]

hmm. until they put something new into the rng, that can be tiered, manipulated and such ... i dont think a priority system will happen, eventually, at one point, we ll get a real, scaled stuf, that drop on random ennemies, at various points. then weapons parts will become turn rewards, surv time rewards at a said time etc ... we ll see

Edited May 25, 2014 by kimahn

[CarrotSalad]

Theres a game already using this idea "the world ends with you" on the nintendo ds.
 

Its a fantastic idea. I really hope dadada your idea gets put on the table.

 

In twewy you have a HP/difficulty modifier in the main menu. The lower you set it the higher the % drop rate from all enemies. if you have it on lowest its a 100% drop chance. On the highest you get the default rate of say 19%. If you set it to level 2 youll get 400 hp but you will get get a slight decrease to drop % from enemies. If you set it to level 19 youll get 1000hp but only the base drop %.

 

"the world ends with you" also has a codex in the menu that lists the drop% of all mobs/bosses and enemies.

 

Its a great post pity I never saw it until today. They could even mix it with Mastery rank. It would add so much more to endgame.

Edited May 28, 2014 by CarrotSalad

[dadaddadada]

Theres a game already using this idea "the world ends with you" on the nintendo ds.

 

Its a fantastic idea. I really hope dadada your idea gets put on the table.

 

In twewy you have a HP/difficulty modifier in the main menu. The lower you set it the higher the % drop rate from all enemies. if you have it on lowest its a 100% drop chance. On the highest you get the default rate of say 19%. If you set it to level 2 youll get 400 hp but you will get get a slight decrease to drop % from enemies. If you set it to level 19 youll get 1000hp but only the base drop %.

 

"the world ends with you" also has a codex in the menu that lists the drop% of all mobs/bosses and enemies.

 

Its a great post pity I never saw it until today. They could even mix it with Mastery rank. It would add so much more to endgame.

 

Thank you for the support.

 

Very interesting find tho.

Never really played that game, but it sounds peculiar to say the least. The concept is similar to this one, but in the warframe case you tweak mods in weapons instead of health i guess... together with some fancy statistical mumbo-jumbo splatted around.