Anyone Else Think Rails Are Way Too Cheap?

[Volt_Cruelerz]

500k Credits

25 Gallium

15k Rubedo

15k Plastids

25 Control Modules

 

I can almost pay for that myself.  All I'd have to do is a few void runs (I have something like 60 keys just sitting around) and I'd have plenty.  Granted, I'm MR 14, but just a quick look through my clan's roster and it looks like about half of us are 14 or 15 and there's 970 of us.

 

Right now, it seems like they were balanced for alliances of 4-5 people, not alliances of 4000.  I could personally keep up with maintenance (provided that it's similarly low) and battle pay so long as I'm charging in the ballpark of 5-10%.  One player should not be able to do that!

 

If a clan were to charge a tax rate of, say, 10% and players got 10k per run, that's 1k per run going into the coffers of the clan.  500 runs (which could happen per hour) and that's recouped.  These costs are positively nothing to a large alliance.

 

On top of that, maintenance costs are, I'd assume, just the initial cost times the health missing.

 

 

To be perfectly honest, I'm thinking costs might have to be increased something like 100 times so we'll see the following...

 

50M Credits

2.5k Gallium

1.5M Rubedo

1.5M Plastids

2.5k Control Modules

 

Doesn't that seem more reasonable for a group of 4k players?  Per player, that's...

 

12500 Credits

0.625 Gallium

3750 Rubedo

3750 Plastids

0.625 Control Modules

 

Sure, not everyone's active in an alliance, but I could personally pay for the shares of a great many people and I imagine most other MR 12+ people could as well.

 

That said, such a dramatic increase in price very well could require an outright reset of the Dark Sectors and a full refund for every rail paid for thus far.  Otherwise, there'd be a hilarious first-mover advantage for those that already have them constructed.  On the other hand, the fact that we already have some set up could act as a stabilizing force if the prices were jacked up so high.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Volt_Cruelerz

[PsychedelicSnake]

We also have to take into account the actual number of players in the Alliance. The cap may be 4000, but of that number, how many are actually active? Worse case scenario, maybe half that.

[Archistopheles]

I say it's fine.

 

To test this new system out, you need people to participate often, and low cost facilitates that.

 

Will the rich get richer? Yes, but anyone, and I mean anyone can challenge solar rails without fear of losing 50 million credits.

[OniDax]

I say it's fine.

 

To test this new system out, you need people to participate often, and low cost facilitates that.

 

Will the rich get richer? Yes, but anyone, and I mean anyone can challenge solar rails without fear of losing 50 million credits.

 

No, not anyone can challenge the rails. Clans in an alliance will need the permission of the alliance founding clan to do anything with dark sectors. And if you're not given permission, then you cannot challenge solar rails. You cannot deploy. My alliance found that out this morning. It's almost better just to not be in an alliance.

 

Rail prices are fine. The whole alliance permission system is not.

[Goosmo]

Wow, that's actually cheap i have like 600 control modules and 1 mio credits, but i think DE made it that cheap to balance the prices between small and big clans.

Edited April 12, 2014 by ArchTenno

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Wow, that's actually cheap i have like 600 control modules and 1 mio credits, but i think DE made it that cheap to balance the prices between small and big clans.

Rails aren't supposed to be between clans.  They're supposed to be between alliances.  All alliances have a player cap of 4k.  Therefore, all alliances should be treated as such.  You should not treat something that has potentially (and reasonably) 4k players as something that only has 4.

[Archistopheles]

No, not anyone can challenge the rails. Clans in an alliance will need the permission of the alliance founding clan to do anything with dark sectors. And if you're not given permission, then you cannot challenge solar rails. You cannot deploy. My alliance found that out this morning. It's almost better just to not be in an alliance.

 

Rail prices are fine. The whole alliance permission system is not.

 

I was talking about price, not the logistics.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

I say it's fine.

 

To test this new system out, you need people to participate often, and low cost facilitates that.

 

Will the rich get richer? Yes, but anyone, and I mean anyone can challenge solar rails without fear of losing 50 million credits.

With the current prices, clans actually can afford to leave it at 0% tax, discounting battle pay.  It's such a low cost that no one actually cares.  The only point of competition is to get your name on the map at this point.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Volt_Cruelerz

[Davoodoo]

With the current prices, clans actually can afford to leave it at 0% tax.  It's such a low cost that no one actually cares.  The only point of competition is to get your name on the map at this point.

Its not about having taxes or building it, its about getting enough to afford battlepay high enough so ppl will want to help you instead of enemy EVERY DAY.

Its impossible to afford without taxes and even with taxes enemy can just permamently lock access to dark sector preventing you from getting taxes.

[Tyr01]

Its not about having taxes or building it, its about getting enough to afford battlepay high enough so ppl will want to help you instead of enemy EVERY DAY.

Its impossible to afford without taxes and even with taxes enemy can just permamently lock access to dark sector preventing you from getting taxes.

The interesting thing about it is that They have, no taxes for anyone else but tax their alliance members that run it. Which means they internally get resources donated to them. As one Alliance has taken almost every node they will most likely keep it and attract a bigger crowd of clans that wish to join them.

[Davoodoo]

The interesting thing about it is that They have, no taxes for anyone else but tax their alliance members that run it. Which means they internally get resources donated to them. As one Alliance has taken almost every node they will most likely keep it and attract a bigger crowd of clans that wish to join them.

It can lead to 2 things:

 

1) syndicate - alliances will decide that this week/month specific alliance holds specific node.

2) complete chaos - everyone fights with everyone, dark sector nodes are permamently in lockdown cause clans get attacked whole time before they run out of money and get kicked out of war till they can get some funds back.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

It can lead to 2 things:

 

1) syndicate - alliances will decide that this week/month specific alliance holds specific node.

2) complete chaos - everyone fights with everyone, dark sector nodes are permamently in lockdown cause clans get attacked whole time before they run out of money and get kicked out of war till they can get some funds back.

Looks like we've fallen into #2.

[FierceRadiance]

I agree.  It's not fair to judge prices now, everybody's got credits to spend.  Wait a month, during which much money and resources will be *ahem* urinated away.  Let's see how quickly challengers appear at that point, and judge then.

 

Also, keep in mind that if competition drives taxes to $0, as it appears is happening, then Davoodoo is correct IMHO, owning a Solar Rail will quickly become little more than a point of pride, and a money pit.  So owning and defending one -or more than one- may not necessarily be something we want to pursue.  It just depends on how things spin out over the next couple of weeks.  Sit tight, watch, and evaluate.

[CasuLL]

before thinking about ur higher rates, think about the new players first. I have no problems with the rails as well but considering new players i think this is just fine. Even if you say it is for alliance purpose build, some new player will think it is too pricey for them. So its better to leave it as is..

[Volt_Cruelerz]

before thinking about ur higher rates, think about the new players first. I have no problems with the rails as well but considering new players i think this is just fine. Even if you say it is for alliance purpose build, some new player will think it is too pricey for them. So its better to leave it as is..

Dark Sectors were supposed to be endgame.  Therefore, we shouldn't be considering new players when setting the prices.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Volt_Cruelerz

[-10no-GCoda]

before thinking about ur higher rates, think about the new players first. I have no problems with the rails as well but considering new players i think this is just fine. Even if you say it is for alliance purpose build, some new player will think it is too pricey for them. So its better to leave it as is..

New players will start a new small clan, and join one big alliance, where is they problem?

Personal small clan without any rules and just one button to be a part of big alliance movement

[Axterix13]

 When, during the podcast, they said the cost would be expensive and would take an alliance to build, I certainly wasn't expecting it to be something I could afford to buy multiples of by my lonesome.  Material cost seems too low.  Credit cost I think is  fine, if not a bit high, since people will need credits to offer as battle pay.  Though repairing should cost a reasonable amount of credits.

 

Dark Sectors were supposed to be endgame.  Therefore, we shouldn't be considering new players when setting the prices.

They come in various level ranges and are against the easiest faction, the one people already routinely farm for xp.  It offers little in terms of unique rewards, other than some channeling mods, which for the most part aren't that good.  So not at the end, not a challenge, and little to no incentive (other than easy xp, which you don't really need if at "the end game").

 

The Dark Sector, as currently implemented, is not an end game.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Axterix13

[Volt_Cruelerz]

They come in various level ranges and are against the easiest faction, the one people already routinely farm for xp.  It offers little in terms of unique rewards, other than some channeling mods, which for the most part aren't that good.  So not at the end, not a challenge, and little to no incentive (other than easy xp, which you don't really need if at "the end game").

 

The Dark Sector, as currently implemented, is not an end game.

not yet, but that was the goal. I've seen several threads that would improve it.

[SmokeyJesus]

To be perfectly honest, I'm thinking costs might have to be increased something like 100 times so we'll see the following...

 

50M Credits

2.5k Gallium

1.5M Rubedo

1.5M Plastids

2.5k Control Modules

I 100% agree that solar rails should be scaled towards a big alliance, but if you have 4000 people it's hard to say if all 4000 of those people will contribute, due to inactivity an what not.

 

I think the costs should be somewhere around half of your numbers. Even at half it would still be a big hit on a clan/alliance if they failed to deploy a solar rail.

 

(Edit: I also think that solar rails should require a multitude of recoruses, not just the ones presented.)

 

With the current prices, clans actually can afford to leave it at 0% tax.  It's such a low cost that no one actually cares.  The only point of competition is to get your name on the map at this point.

Yep, could not have said it any better myself.

Edited April 14, 2014 by SmokeyJesus

[Endorphinz]

As if this game wasn't already enough of a grind for resources. DE probably made the cost low so that people wouldn't complain about having to perpetually grind for resources to throw into a sink.

 

But, by now, we all know that's the least of the problems dark sectors has.

 

You need to realize, though, that even if the alliance maximum is 4k members, you might have only half of that filled up. And, out of those <2k members, maybe 1/4 of them actually give a damn enough to donate to anything, the rest of em are just moochers.

[Driftwood]

With solar rails being meant as an endgame element, I would have really expected solar rails to be a lot more expensive. Maybe there will be different kinds of solar rails that will have costs more in line with end-game numbers?

[Volt_Cruelerz]

As if this game wasn't already enough of a grind for resources. DE probably made the cost low so that people wouldn't complain about having to perpetually grind for resources to throw into a sink.

 

But, by now, we all know that's the least of the problems dark sectors has.

 

You need to realize, though, that even if the alliance maximum is 4k members, you might have only half of that filled up. And, out of those <2k members, maybe 1/4 of them actually give a damn enough to donate to anything, the rest of em are just moochers.

Except now there's no barrier to entry, so we're locked in an eternal state of engagements happening the absolute first moment they can.

 

You honestly think that those that are active and care can't come up with 50k credits, 3 Gallium, 15k Rubedo, 15k Plastids, and 3 CM's each?  If they can't, maybe drop it to 50x instead of 100x, but the point remains.  We need to put up some sort of barrier to entry so that no everyone and their brother can just build their own.

[Axterix13]

Except now there's no barrier to entry, so we're locked in an eternal state of engagements happening the absolute first moment they can.

 

You honestly think that those that are active and care can't come up with 50k credits, 3 Gallium, 15k Rubedo, 15k Plastids, and 3 CM's each?  If they can't, maybe drop it to 50x instead of 100x, but the point remains.  We need to put up some sort of barrier to entry so that no everyone and their brother can just build their own.

You wouldn't want 50k credits each, because they need to be able to fund battle pay.  Otherwise, the defending clan has a decent advantage, since they could charge something like 5% for at least 24 hours.  On a node like Pluto that would add up to quite a lot credits.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

You wouldn't want 50k credits each, because they need to be able to fund battle pay.  Otherwise, the defending clan has a decent advantage, since they could charge something like 5% for at least 24 hours.  On a node like Pluto that would add up to quite a lot credits.

1. If you already have one, you can use that one to help finance your aggression elsewhere.  If you don't already have one, obviously it will be harder to match battle pay.  At the same time though, the incumbent should have a leg up on you.  This may be too strongly in favor of the incumbent, but prices can be adjusted.  The point I was trying to make in the OP was that the prices need to be increased by at least an order of magnitude.  I've said in other threads that 50x might be more reasonable than 100x.

 

2. I don't think tribute applies during contests

 

3. Yes, yes it would.  Pluto very well could involve hundreds of millions of credits going in and out.

[Axterix13]

1. If you already have one, you can use that one to help finance your aggression elsewhere.  If you don't already have one, obviously it will be harder to match battle pay.  At the same time though, the incumbent should have a leg up on you.  This may be too strongly in favor of the incumbent, but prices can be adjusted.  The point I was trying to make in the OP was that the prices need to be increased by at least an order of magnitude.  I've said in other threads that 50x might be more reasonable than 100x.

 

2. I don't think tribute applies during contests

 

3. Yes, yes it would.  Pluto very well could involve hundreds of millions of credits going in and out.

1.  Most people won't have one elsewhere.  And the incumbent already has a leg up on you if they tax.  Not only are their members just as capable of doing whatever the invading clan did during that time to make money, they'll also have whatever the taxes bring in.

 

2.  It doesn't.  But I didn't say it did.  There will be 24 hours between invasions, and that's 24 hours of taxation.

 

3.  And that would give the defenders way too big of an advantage.  Which is why there's no point to raising the monetary cost.  The mats, sure.  But the monetary should be left alone and possibly even removed entirely.  It'll get spent on the players anyway.

 

I am sort of worried about how clans controlling multiple nodes will play out, if they decide to start taxing.  On one hand, it could give them a lot of money with which to take over more and more.  On the other, some people may get determined to trash them because they control too much.  But will those people outnumber those who follow the path of greed?  I expect a lot of players will be like me and not care too much about most of the nodes, meaning they'll have no problem accepting the biggest payouts, barring on the select few nodes they actually value.  Possibly there should be a limit on how much you can control.  But that can be a wait and see thing.

 

Beyond that though, there needs to be a benefit to controlling these nodes beyond what is there now.  I have no idea what it should be, but it needs to be something other than extra resources and credits, as those are pretty much pointless (other than using credits as battle pay, which you wouldn't need if you didn't want a node).  And yet at the same time, it can't be too big of an advantage.  Perhaps DE should borrow a page from DAoC's book and go with something relic like.  Give each node a benefit it grants to the alliance.  5% more affinity here, some hp there, 5% more speed in another spot...  Nothing too huge, but yet still tangible.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Axterix13