A.i. 2.0

[Psycomet]

My issue: Improve the AI (overall).

 

My suggestions (modifiable based on feedback).

Main idea: AI REACTION

 

DE hit the nail on the head with melee. It didn’t feel like meleeing before because the enemies were oblivious to our melee attacks. I feel the same problem exists with other aspects of the AI. Also this seems like the most viable way of going about fixing up WF’s AI. An AI system where enemy difficulty is determined by the number of heavy units present in the mob is not very rewarding. What we want is real enemies to fight, not search and be killed pushovers (and I think we all agree on this point at least). We want enemies who plan, manipulate, counter, basically make lives miserable for us as a MOB not 1 unit sticking us in limbo with a switch teleport (love that bit btw).

 

The Result of the overhaul (merely an example)

Two enemies enter the ‘far’ corner of the room and see your squad consisting of a Rhino, a Loki and 2 other frames (say banshee and Excalibur).

 

1 enemy scouts Rhino and the other scouts Loki. Which enemy scouts which member will be RNG.

Rhino had already used skin. The two immediately begin suppressing his Iron Skin. The one who noticed Loki was about to attack Loki but Rhino took his attention before he could do it because of no other reason but that Rhino was there.

 

Now the Loki hits one of these enemies with a Vectis but can’t kill it. He is now aware of a bigger danger to himself than Rhino so he stops firing, takes cover and changes his position. His sole purpose is now to stay in cover and try to flank that Loki.

 

A third enemy enters the room. This enemy randomly scouts Banshee first and notices she has only 5% of her health left. This is enough reason for him to start attacking her. Had he noticed the Rhino first, he would’ve ended up attacking him.

 

The Rhino now proceeds to use Stomp. All three enemies are now aware of this and they “dive” in a direction away from the location of the Rhino. One of them was too slow to react, but the other two just missed the boundary of Stomp’s effect and rose up unscathed.

 

How?

1. Enemies react to specific Warframe’s presence/health (aggro). (Explanations in spoilers)

This is already in the game, we call this aggro. But it’s barely visible because of so many interfering factors. When a rhino enters the room (be he pro or noob), enemies should shower him with hugs and kisses in much the same way we deal with Napalms. This would make frames like rhino fit more into their roles. Additionally, noobs can’t Iron Skin and juggernaut all over the place because the enemies will specially focus on tearing down his power. This leads us to the second point.

 

2. Enemies react to specific Warframe abilities (they “dive” out of the way of a slash dash).

Every time we enter a mission, I feel like these crewmen/lancers were born yesterday. They have been dealing with the Tenno for so long and yet have no idea of their abilities.

 

Solution: Each enemy will be able to react to warframe abilities based on one of 3 Awareness States that they can have: Unaware, Aware, Aggravated.

 

E.g. ¬ When Rhino is about to stomp they dive outwards

¬When Trinity does blessing they take cover and try to pass time until they can damage you again

¬When Saryn venoms a guy, those around him space out so that they don’t get caught in the infection.

{I’m not suggesting a reaction for each and every ability, maybe just ultimates?}

 

When an enemy is Aware of you, he will do a prescribed set of actions. He will a. Take cover, b. Take note your warframe, c. Take note of your weapons, d. Take appropriate actions. Aware enemies can actively and effectively react to your powers. Aware enemies will be adept at taking head-shots and timing/positioning grenades. They can also bring a nearby unit out of aggravated state given enough time.

 

When an enemy is Aggravated, they have either taken damage or are too close to you so they are brush firing at you. These enemies won’t be able to react to anything except trying to increase the distance between him and you while still shooting in your direction. Aggravated units’ shooting will be highly inaccurate.

 

Leader Units will never enter an Aggravated state due to their training and experience. Additionally, they can bring a number of surrounding units around themselves out of Aggravated state and keep them there.

 

3. Enemies react to Tenno’s weapons (Enemy hit by sniper but not killed proceeds with extreme caution and quickly changes his position while trying to stay in cover).

This is simple. Take the above example. Then in case of a tenno with a shotgun, enemies will actively try to increase his separation from the shotgun. He will lead the tenno in a random direction away from the battlefield, while his teammates are alerted that his attacker’s back is open. Moreover, elementals. Suppose you corrosive/viral proc-ed someone, he will stop firing and take cover.

 

WHY all this?

If all of these are applied to late game content, it will surely make being pro matter because press 4 and forget won’t always work anymore. Early players will also face a challenge, and this will last longer because it won’t be so easy to find the right strategy.

 

>It will bring quality of life changes, Long term. Bosses and/or spectres will automatically be a lot more challenging.

>This could be an End game project in itself because smart AI plus higher levels will pose an incredibly difficult challenge for veteran players.

>For all I’ve heard we’re space ninjas but this game feels like a zombie hoard killer sometimes.

>Hopefully this will make warframe completely surpass many others in its uniqueness.

[Nyxcha]

yes.

 

signed.

 

 

but not way to smart. cause gotta remember grineer are the products of thousands of years of cloning.  aka inbreeding.

[Cytobel]

The AI has seen some upgrading over the last year, but it could use a bit more I and a bit less A, if you follow me.  For the most part, I think we need more small-unit tactical interaction among the enemies, but they at least seem to integrate tactically now.

 

I agree that it's time for a more thorough overhaul.  I've already made my ideas clear in other posts.  I hope that DE take note, and perhaps begin some limited work on this..

[Unibot]

NO MORE 2.0

BRING BACK ALL 1.0 !!

[OnnaJReverT]

what you proposed for blessing would probably make trinity even more OP if nobody actively shot her while blessing is active^^

 

but i agree that we need better AI, and this seems like a step in the right direction

[unknow99]

The AI needs to have more Group strategies (at the moment they act individually).

 

3 days ago I had the good surprise to see 4 lancer following and getting before a fire leader, kneeling and standing their position. I once felt that I was fighting an organized army. :)

 

They need to give orders to each other, quickly moving their hands to a specific position, coordinate themselves,etc... Like a real commando group should deal with this situation.

[direcyphre]

Time to crank up the old AI fallacy engine!

 

The inherent problem with any sort of advancement in AI decisions is the average lifespan of the everyday Grineer. While it would be cool and all if they could make tactical decisions, their lifespans are measured in seconds. This being a fast-paced shooter game instead of Rainbow Six or Metal Gear Solid, the player is geared towards killing everything in the fastest means possible. Part of the game itself is the ability to wipe out entire hordes of enemies with the massive array of weapons and abilities available to us, so the only real solution is to bring more firepower against us. You could certainly being a squad of grineer, but the best tactic for them would be to bring more units so that there are at least some left to shoot at you while the rest get wiped out.

 

Any comparison to another game that is a shooter with tactics and strategy falls flat due to those games establishing standard map layouts with standard humanoid opponents. Once you've played this game for any length of time, the layout of every tile has been established and there isn't a real way for the enemy to get the upper hand until they start wallrunning and using a sliding melee attack. No amount of tactics and strategy works unless both sides are equally equipped.

[Psycomet]

NO MORE 2.0

BRING BACK ALL 1.0 !!

Lol I get your feeling bro :D

[Quovander]

I approve anything that promotes stealth and tactical co-op. Upgrading enemy A.I may just be the solution.

[slappy330]

..But I don't want smart bosses..I want to easily farm my orokin cells and WF parts..

[Psycomet]

Time to crank up the old AI fallacy engine!

 

The inherent problem with any sort of advancement in AI decisions is the average lifespan of the everyday Grineer. While it would be cool and all if they could make tactical decisions, their lifespans are measured in seconds. This being a fast-paced shooter game instead of Rainbow Six or Metal Gear Solid, the player is geared towards killing everything in the fastest means possible. Part of the game itself is the ability to wipe out entire hordes of enemies with the massive array of weapons and abilities available to us, so the only real solution is to bring more firepower against us. You could certainly being a squad of grineer, but the best tactic for them would be to bring more units so that there are at least some left to shoot at you while the rest get wiped out.

 

Any comparison to another game that is a shooter with tactics and strategy falls flat due to those games establishing standard map layouts with standard humanoid opponents. Once you've played this game for any length of time, the layout of every tile has been established and there isn't a real way for the enemy to get the upper hand until they start wallrunning and using a sliding melee attack. No amount of tactics and strategy works unless both sides are equally equipped.

While your point is valid I would say that despite the evidence that is right in front of us, the true vision of DE is still unknown to us. They keep trying to promote stealth and tactics i.e. elementals and dmg 2.0 and now Hydroid's 3rd power. In fact, Defense and Survival were the last mission types to be developed and the initial game ran on raids, sabotages and spy missions that followed much of the dark sector type mechanics.

 

Yes they do need more firepower but in reality they can still kill us.

 

Part of the problem that DE has to take into consideration is the amount of games out there that are based on loot and horde killer genres and how most of those games attract hardcore players because there is no limit to how much loot you can accumulate. If Warframe wants to survive then it needs to partly satisfy those needs of the players. However, it is just my opinion that this influence acts as a drawback to the creation of any game whose core mechanics deviate considerably from the 'pop' type. Had Warframe been at either extremes (extreme killing or extreme stealth) it would be extremely unpopular, IMO because there are too many of those out there.

[unknow99]

Time to crank up the old AI fallacy engine!

 

The inherent problem with any sort of advancement in AI decisions is the average lifespan of the everyday Grineer. While it would be cool and all if they could make tactical decisions, their lifespans are measured in seconds. This being a fast-paced shooter game instead of Rainbow Six or Metal Gear Solid, the player is geared towards killing everything in the fastest means possible. Part of the game itself is the ability to wipe out entire hordes of enemies with the massive array of weapons and abilities available to us, so the only real solution is to bring more firepower against us. You could certainly being a squad of grineer, but the best tactic for them would be to bring more units so that there are at least some left to shoot at you while the rest get wiped out.

 

Any comparison to another game that is a shooter with tactics and strategy falls flat due to those games establishing standard map layouts with standard humanoid opponents. Once you've played this game for any length of time, the layout of every tile has been established and there isn't a real way for the enemy to get the upper hand until they start wallrunning and using a sliding melee attack. No amount of tactics and strategy works unless both sides are equally equipped.

You're right man, we're not playing Thief,MGS or Splinter Cell. However, once you do stealth missions (and I know you've tried at least once), you can see that they can add very little things that could improve that experience.

 

Example :

(watch it at 15 : 50)

[Rawnrawn]

First of our enemies should have a larger array of weapons.

 

Second: They know the map layout, we do not. When the alarm sounds they can organise their numbers to gather in a big room laying in ambush, when all tenno are inside the room they have a guy ready at the console locking it down.

This would give players time to breathe beetween big fights but at the same time making it harder than 1-5 opponents comming at you at a time all the time during normal missions.

 

Teriary: Crazed state, when grineer clones are nearing death they could pull out a grenade and run towards the enemy, moa's could stop firing and start jump kicking you, crewmen taking out a prod rather than having them as a seperate unit. Oh and please DE give melee enemies the ability to melee AND run at the same time will you, it's trivial to dodge any melee strike.