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So Many Things Marred By Poor Design/implementation...


Volt_Cruelerz
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I'm reaching the same point I did around U7 where I'm questioning the path of the devs and considering leaving for a while... There's so much cool stuff to do in this game... But time and again, I'm seeing things marred by excessive RNG, absurd numerics, or just plain poor design/implementation.

Look, I'm not expecting perfection from DE. But.. It's just so discouraging to see the same sort of things happen again and again and again.

And before someone tries to suggest that I should give suggestions, take a look at my post count. Most of those were giving suggestions or commenting on those of others.  For a list of the bigger things I've tried to draw attention to, take a look at the mega-thread list on this page. There are other things that I haven't even released yet (one is about mods for instance, but it uses the reasoning provided by another unreleased document whose author has elected to wait given the upheaval of U13).

 

If you really want specific problems, see the spoiler...

-Major problems with the new player experience like power growth

 

-Obvious balance problems with frames and weapons that could be fixed (or at least stop-gap-fixed) with mere number changes

 

-Obvious QoL problems with frames that have simple solutions that the community came up with a year ago

 

-Difficulty that is entirely numerical

 

-Melee 2.0 introduced RNG-gated combos and poor channeling mod options while completely forgetting that you can't kill an enemy that your ally killed from 30m while you were running towards that opponent

 

-Damage 2.0 didn't actually fix builds or armor scaling, it just added combo elements (which IMO are cool, but didn't actually fix anything).  Admittedly, it did fix the hyper-reliance on armor ignore and made armor scaling less harsh.

 

-Mods 2.0 standardized mod value (not even sure this is a good thing), added pretty pictures (which admittedly are really cool), broke puncture for the longest time, reduced mod slots which resulted in reduced flexibility of builds, and made duplicates near-useless

 

-Nightmare uses RNG to determine which handicap you're given, none of which bother some frames, so most players just revert to using Rhino

 

-Egregious grinding keys for bosses.  Lephantis was problematic at implementation, but was balanced with new players in mind (I can accept that, but I wish instead they'd have made the cost of keys slowly scale up over the first few weeks of the update to allow existing players access to it).  Vay Hek is just insane and I'm never going to farm those.  I just won't.  It took me 42 runs to get Nyx.  I'm not going to tolerate far more than that.

 

-Fundamental problems with the energy system's RNG nature and utter dependence on Energy Siphon (or expendable objects which are in opposition to the spirit of the game)

 

-AI is stupid

 

-AI aimbots you no matter what you're doing or how many times you teleport out of their field of vision

 

-Leaders don't actually cause you to play differently

 

-Dark Sectors ownership offers no benefit and is actually a bad thing (even with a 100% tax rate, you couldn't recoup your battle pay and repair costs with the current way things are)

 

-Dark Sectors will always be in constant conflict unless Solar Rails have their cost increased by an order of magnitude or two to actually account for the fact that they're being built by alliances of 4k players.  Right now, I can nearly build one myself.  That's absurd.

 

-Stunlock isn't avoidable

 

-I could go on much longer, but the most important thing is this: everything is a skinner box.  There's no time to just sit back and enjoy playing the game for its own sake because the meta is dominated by "must... get... next... item..."  The game is constantly putting up goal posts.  Just as you reach those, others are put down.  It's a never-ending feeling of incompleteness.  It's as if the game doesn't want you to just play it.



Look, I'm sure I'm not right about everything. I'm sure I don't have the best ideas to fix things. But there are problems out there, problems that the community has identified with ease that just go unfixed for so long when the change isn't even that large.

Does Scott need subordinates to help him? Maybe he's just overworked... Maybe Steve is the one that needs assistance? I don't know... They come on the streams and talk perfect sense, but the implementation just doesn't line up with that... It's just a disconnect... Why?

It would be so easy to pump out conspiracy theories. They've given us tons of conspiracy fodder. I've elected not to, but it would be so easy...

What's the problem here? Why does this keep happening?  

 

It's not like they don't pay attention to the community.  There are several forum members (myself included) that the devs recognize when on the streams and one of our questions is read off. Many of these members post routinely reasonable and constructive suggestions that would improve the game (myself hopefully included).  The devs post hot topics.  Rebecca posts a ton in threads trying to help out players and relays information to the devs she finds particularly important.  I don't mind that Steve and Scott post rarely.  In my own experience as a dev, when you do post and you're an actual designer, not just a CM, you get bombarded by requests and your own opinion is taken as the official view of the team.  I can empathize with that.

 

 

I just don't get it...  What's going wrong?  I want to give them the benefit of the doubt, but just calling them inept or money grubbers is a whole lot easier...

 

 

 

EDIT: after some discussion, I came up with this and I think it pretty well describes the problems we're having...

while(true){     Problem p = community.findProblem();     devs.notice(p);     Content c = devs.addCoolStuffRelatingTo(p);     if(c.isCool)     {          devs.release(c);          continue;     }     devs.fix(p);}
Edited by Volt_Cruelerz
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Amen to that. 

 

Every update involving major changes always leaves me feeling disappointed. Now don't get me wrong, I appreciate these updates and the work the Devs put in them, but they always do something at the last minute that makes everything fall flat on it's face.

 

An example would be Update 10, and how the new boss at the time (Lephantis) was locked behind a big wall. I was excited for him, I wanted to face the new boss, one thats been shown to be much more unique and therefore interesting. Imagine my surprise and disappointment when I logged in and learned that we weren't able to fight him from the get go, or how much trouble you had to go through to get even 1 key for the fight.

Edited by Sasquatch180
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Eh, I think things are just rushed out each week to keep people happy and to live up to the once a week patch goal/target. I wouldn't mind if they just released the bug fixes and features took more time, at least then things would feel much more fleshed out.

I kinda feel you on this.

 

How big is the dev team? Anyone got a rough number? Only watched the streams a few times, never really noticed much in the back ground...

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I'm actually enjoying the chaos. They need to tear stuff up to get the foundation layed for this game.

 

What we should be doing as players is judging the raw mechanics, not the numbers. Numbers can be changed, but mechanics will become part of the game "forever." (quoted for uncertainty)

 

Drop rates, OP weapons, dumb ai, lack of stealth, mods balance, frame balance. All of that can be changed at any given moment.

 

Combo controls, Argon-style resources, Dark Sectors, the Mastery System, Key Walls, Prime Access, RNG, & Dojo research methods - Those are what we should be talking about. (Which Volt is, I'm just throwing my 2cents out)

 

As long as the core gameplay feels good, the game will survive.

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Yeah, there's definitely a lot of issues.

 

I'd really like to see them take a break from introducing new things for a couple of weeks to fix up some of the crap that's accumulated over time.  Fix up some of the mods with crappy values (status, reload time, magazine size) or ones that don't match what others have (cold/electric damage mods).  Fix up the starting weapons to have sensible values.  Do a balance pass on weapon damage vs mastery rank.  Maybe nerf serration-like mods and/or multishot.  Make it so we can hit things above/below us with melee if we're looking up/down.  Tweak some powers that nobody currently uses, such as lowering the energy cost on most damage dealing #1s.

 

And yeah, adjusting some of the RNG numbers.  The whole Hek thing seems a bit like a pointless grind.  Having the 30-40 Dark Sector missions handing out T2 keys rather frequently at the 15m mark... huh?  And then there was the sticking of rare stance mods on bosses, which thankfully got fixed, sort of.  The placement of the mods could still use some tweaking.  And speaking of that, a bunch of what mods drop where could use tweaking.  If I sort by duplicates, I've got a ton of sentinel ability mods, as in hundreds of some of them.  Why don't the things that drop them drop something that we actually want quantities of instead, like the "common" mods with 10 ranks?  And certain mods that should be more widely available (most poison mods, Stormbringer, Deep Freeze) still aren't.

 

Beyond that, some other things could use adjusting as well.  The use of 24 hour timers, for example.  That's something you shouldn't use, as it creates slippage, going later and later until eventually you're forced to skip a day.  That's why most games use 20 hours instead.  It essentially limits it to 1x per day (the goal), but does so in a way that doesn't have that slippage, thereby being more player friendly.

 

Then there's Nightmare Modes, with energy drain and no shields mutators, both of which serve to invalidate portions of the game design that are used in balance, as well as mods equipped by the players.  Both of these should be replaced with something that achieves the same goal, but doesn't overly punish a frame that gives up durability for powers (say by having it be high damage and an efficiency debuff instead).

 

But basically, take a break from introducing new things for a bit and fix stuff.  And if that leaves the artists without anything to do, well, it is about time we got alternate textures for Dojo halls, as well as more decorations, like statues for factions other than the Grineer.

Edited by Axterix13
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i think they just need to take there time and slowly go through the old systems reviewing and replacing them to make them fit the game better. eg 2.0 everything

mods 2.0 broke puncture for the longest time and makes duplicates near useless.

Damage 2.0 didn't actually fix builds or armor growth. It just added combo elements.

Melee 2.0 just added RNG-gated combos and underpowered channeling without actually fixing the fundamental problem with enemies dying before you get there.

Edited by Volt_Cruelerz
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I agree it is odd that they say things and then when they come out what we get is totally different.
Valkyr's hysteria animations were going to be great and people would love them! 
Nope.
We want to reduce rng.
Nope.
It's almost as if they're pandering what we want to hear.
I'm not really sure, and let's not start a riot over that statement.

Although I wouldn't mind just getting that heavy and logically thought out balance pass over everything.

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I'm reaching the same point I did around U7 where I'm questioning the path of the devs... There's so much cool stuff to do in this game... But time and again, I'm seeing things marred by excessive RNG (Prosecutors, and Vay Hek come to mind, but this applies to all sorts of things like Nightmare), absurd numerics (take a look at the balance of this game and how difficulty is entirely numeric), or just plain poor design/implementation.

Look, I'm not expecting perfection from DE. But.. It's just so discouraging to see the same sort of things happen again and again and again.

And before someone tries to suggest that I should give suggestions, take a look at my post count. Look at the mega-thread list on this page. There are other things that I haven't even released yet (one is about mods for instance, but it uses the reasoning provided by another unreleased document whose author has elected to wait given the upheaval of U13).

If someone wants to get a full list of the problems I have with Warframe and my views on them (I usually provide fixes), check the aforementioned list. Look, I'm sure I'm not right about everything. I'm sure I don't have the best ideas to fix things. But there are problems out there, problems that the community has identified with ease that just go unfixed for so long when the change isn't even that large.

Does Scott need subordinates to help him? Maybe he's just overworked... Maybe Steve is the one that needs assistance? I don't know... They come on the streams and talk perfect sense, but the implementation just doesn't line up with that... It's just a disconnect... Why?

It would be so easy to pump out conspiracy theories. They've given us tons of conspiracy fodder. I've elected not to, but it would be so easy...

What's the problem here? Why does this keep happening?

 

That was not a heartpour that Warframe deserves, but a heartpour that Warframe needs. I really, really really, hope that this thread and what you said doesn't go unnoticed by Digital Extremes.

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Look, I'm not expecting perfection from DE. But.. It's just so discouraging to see the same sort of things happen again and again and again.

 

 

I'm in the same boat. I keep telling myself "the next update won't just be another one-off grind, it will add some real substance".

 

And then we get U13 which pretty much ignored most pledges DE has made to the playerbase since the start of the year.

 

  • "Endgame will be systemic replay @ level cap, Focus coming first" = Dark Sectors are first, and are ODS/Tier 1 Ext

     

  • "Melee 2.0 will make melee as viable as guns" = Slow paced combos, run around chasing enemies that others kill from 20M away

     

  • "We're going to address RNG and the grind" = Add 20+ new mods to drop tables, leave dozens of ability/sentinel mods in.

     

  • "The new AI is going to be more intelligent" = Tenno Spectres stand there while you shoot them in the face. Literally.   

 

When DE addresses an issue, they end up replacing it with something far "cooler" that doesn't actually fix the initial problem. Over time that means WF gets more and more "cool" (floating chicken saucer anyone?), but inside, it's still as broken and lacking as it always was.

 

       "No build diversity? OK, here's Damage 2.0, a much cooler system which also has no build diversity!"

 

 

Why Aren't They Fixing It?

 

The thing is, WF's core gameplay is incredibly engaging and beautiful, despite literally dozens of obvious issues like balance, absolute monotony, lack of motivation/need for teamwork, lack of risk/reward, lack of logical progression. Even in this state, we're sticking around, waiting for a change.

 

Warframe is the flighty-but-fun, drop-dead-gorgeous vixen that can't spell her own name, but ends up with a billionaire CEO ex-jock husband.

 

And we're sitting around telling her how important it is that she get a college degree.

 

We're right, but it doesn't matter.

Edited by notionphil
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I beg to differ.

Well, think Volt is talking more about the channeling mods being underpowered, rather than Channeling itself.  An extra 50% boost when you need it certainly isn't bad, even if it does cost some power.  The mods though are pretty bad, as the opportunity cost of using them lowers your regular damage by about the same amount percent as your channeling attacks gain.  Which means unless you are channeling something like a third or more of the time when meleeing, they'll lower your overall DPS.  And that ignores whatever else you could be doing with the energy, of course.

Edited by Axterix13
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Why Aren't They Fixing It?

 

The thing is, WF's core gameplay is incredibly engaging and beautiful, despite literally dozens of obvious issues like balance, absolute monotony, lack of motivation/need for teamwork, lack of risk/reward, lack of logical progression. Even in this state, we're sticking around, waiting for a change.

 

Warframe is the flighty-but-fun, drop-dead-gorgeous vixen that can't spell her own name, but ends up with a billionaire CEO ex-jock husband.

 

And we're sitting around telling her how important it is that she get a college degree.

 

We're right, but it doesn't matter.

 

That is an amazing analogy. It perfectly sums up the entire issue.

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Well, think Volt is talking more about the channeling mods being underpowered, rather than Channeling itself.  An extra 50% boost when you need it certainly isn't bad, even if it does cost some power.  The mods though are pretty bad, as the opportunity cost of using them lowers your regular damage by about the same amount percent as your channeling attacks gain.  Which means unless you are channeling something like a third or more of the time when meleeing, they'll lower your overall DPS.  And that ignores whatever else you could be doing with the energy, of course.

 

Well said.

 

I blame Life steal. They had to make sure the damage it scaled off of wasn't over-the-top, but they still wanted the mod to be "powerful" in and of itself.

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Well, think Volt is talking more about the channeling mods being underpowered, rather than Channeling itself.  An extra 50% boost when you need it certainly isn't bad, even if it does cost some power.  The mods though are pretty bad, as the opportunity cost of using them lowers your regular damage by about the same amount percent as your channeling attacks gain.  Which means unless you are channeling something like a third or more of the time when meleeing, they'll lower your overall DPS.  And that ignores whatever else you could be doing with the energy, of course.

 

actually while going melee you are gonna be channeling over 50% of the time, and since you can get +220 channeling damage with 3 mods adding focus energy to counter the efficiency drawback and getting electrical damage and you are 1 hitting everything for the same price

 

 

Warframe is the flighty-but-fun, drop-dead-gorgeous vixen that can't spell her own name, but ends up with a billionaire CEO ex-jock husband.

 

And we're sitting around telling her how important it is that she get a college degree.

 

We're right, but it doesn't matter.

 

that was fun disturbing but fun.  but I also think saying they haven't tried to fix the problems is unfair, i work with IT too so i know is not that easy and you can't make em all happy

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that was fun disturbing but fun.  but I also think saying they haven't tried to fix the problems is unfair, i work with IT too so i know is not that easy and you can't make em all happy

 

Many of us vets are in technology development including a few in this thread. (surprise! tech ppl love videogames).

 

DE is doing a lot of good work, but its often the wrong work.

 

People were telling DE last year that combos would not help melee's viability, and other important feedback. Instead of honing in on the real issues, DE builds a beautiful solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

 

When melee was rarely used bc of low viability compared to guns/powers....Did you ever say to yourself:

 

"Gee, if these normal swings were more complex to execute, and my charge attack cost energy yet did less relative damage....maybe melee would be MORE viable compared to my Soma?"

 

And how about during Damage 1.0, when DE tackled rainbow build & lack of diversity:

 

"You know what would be better than having to stack elemental damage on every gun? Having to Stack elemental damage on every gun in a particular order - solely depending on which faction you're fighting!"

 

Somewhere in the dev process, the problem-solution dialog is being abandoned in favor of... "you know what would be AWESOME? ninja stances & guns that melt faces off!"

Edited by notionphil
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Many of us vets are in technology development including a few in this thread. (surprise! tech ppl love videogames).

 

DE is doing a lot of good work, but its often the wrong work.

 

People were telling DE last year that combos would not help melee's viability, and other important feedback. Instead of honing in on the real issues, DE builds a beautiful solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

 

When melee was rarely used bc of low viability compared to guns/powers....Did you ever say to yourself:

 

"Gee, if these normal swings were more complex to execute, and my charge attack cost energy yet did less relative damage....maybe melee would be MORE viable compared to my Soma?"

 

And how about during Damage 1.0, when DE tackled rainbow build & lack of diversity:

 

"You know what would be better than having to stack elemental damage on every gun? Having to Stack elemental damage on every gun in a particular order - solely depending on which faction you're fighting!"

 

Somewhere in the dev process, the problem-solution dialog is being abandoned in favor of... "you know what would be AWESOME? ninja stances & guns that melt faces off!"

And for the life of me, I can't figure out why they do that, especially when RNG is involved.  RNG can have some good uses, but the rate they use it is over the top.

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-Major problems with the new player experience like power growth

 

-Obvious balance problems with frames and weapons that could be fixed (or at least stop-gap-fixed) with mere number changes

 

-Melee 2.0 introduced RNG-gated combos and poor channeling mod options while completely forgetting that you can't kill an enemy that your ally killed from 30m while you were running towards that opponent

 

-Nightmare uses RNG to determine which handicap you're given, none of which bother some frames, so most players just revert to using Rhino

 

-Fundamental problems with the energy system's RNG nature and utter dependence on Energy Siphon (or expendable objects which are in opposition to the spirit of the game)

 

-AI is stupid

 

-Dark Sectors ownership offers no benefit and is actually a bad thing (even with a 100% tax rate, you couldn't recoup your battle pay and repair costs with the current way things are)

 

-Dark Sectors will always be in constant conflict unless Solar Rails have their cost increased by an order of magnitude or two to actually account for the fact that they're being built by alliances of 4k players.  Right now, I can nearly build one myself.  That's absurd.

 

-Stunlock isn't avoidable

 

-I could go on much longer, but the most important thing is this: everything is a skinner box.  There's no time to just sit back and enjoy playing the game for its own sake because the meta is dominated by "must... get... next... item..."  The game is constantly putting up goal posts.  Just as you reach those, others are put down.  It's a never-ending feeling of incompleteness.  It's as if the game doesn't want you to just play it.

-Getting long-time players to continue playing is more important to them. The tutorial is the only thing that really needs work, I think, it doesn't even explain that you can run up walls. Also at the moment it's got an awful bug tied to it.

 

-Yeah, they do need to balance frames. "But it's co-op!" doesn't excuse it, I tell D&D players this and D&D rules can actually be changed by individual groups. It's not well-balanced for co-op either. Ember is only useful against Infested. Frost is only good in Defense and Mobile Defense (a stop-gap was placed to stop the difference between having him and not having him being so big, but they didn't retool his other abilities well enough to make him much more useful outside of those missions). Rhino isn't egregiously OP, but he's just good in every single mission. Trinity can make the entire team invincible, now put Streamline and/or whatever mod increases power duration on her. So yeah, frames need to be balanced.

 

-Well that's why you go off on your own where your party won't shoot down the enemy. :P Anyway I haven't really had problems finding Uncommon stance mods, but hey, RNG.

 

-Yeah, no shields is basically an auto-lose for anyone not Rhino unless you focus entirely on armor and health, in which case you've wasted some mod slots and points if you don't end up with no shields, meanwhile every other mode is easy.

 

-Don't really see it as a problem, this is a very minor one really.

 

-AI is pretty good, it's just that it treats this like a traditional skirmish, while the Tenno can just run up to them and shoot them in the face while taking only minor damage which will automatically be healed because warframe shields regen.

 

-Yeah, definitely agree on the "no benefits" part. But as for the costs part, see my next point.

 

-I don't see this really being a problem after we've seen the terrible things caused by everyone trying to move in at once. Most people will back off and just play the no-tax Infested missions. Maybe one or two alliances will try to take one, motivated by pride, but I don't think it'll really keep up like this.

 

-Stunlock? For what?

 

-It would be a skinner box if the gameplay was mindless like in WoW (outside of new raids that you don't have the timings down for), or an older skinner box, the slot machine. The gameplay itself is fun and engaging. But the gameplay isn't that difficult, so it's kinda teetering on the edge.

 

So yeah, a lot of your points are good, but I don't agree with all of them.

 

---

 

Random thought time, maybe Scott is like Molyneux.

Edited by HiroProtagonest
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-Getting long-time players to continue playing is more important to them. The tutorial is the only thing that really needs work, I think, it doesn't even explain that you can run up walls. Also at the moment it's got an awful bug tied to it.

 

-Yeah, they do need to balance frames. "But it's co-op!" doesn't excuse it, I tell D&D players this and D&D rules can actually be changed by individual groups. It's not well-balanced for co-op either. Ember is only useful against Infested. Frost is only good in Defense and Mobile Defense (a stop-gap was placed to stop the difference between having him and not having him being so big, but they didn't retool his other abilities well enough to make him much more useful outside of those missions). Rhino isn't egregiously OP, but he's just good in every single mission. Trinity can make the entire team invincible, now put Streamline and/or whatever mod increases power duration on her. So yeah, frames need to be balanced.

 

-Well that's why you go off on your own where your party won't shoot down the enemy. :P Anyway I haven't really had problems finding Uncommon stance mods, but hey, RNG.

 

-Yeah, no shields is basically an auto-lose for anyone not Rhino unless you focus entirely on armor and health, in which case you've wasted some mod slots and points if you don't end up with no shields, meanwhile every other mode is easy.

 

-Don't really see it as a problem, this is a very minor one really.

 

-AI is pretty good, it's just that it treats this like a traditional skirmish, while the Tenno can just run up to them and shoot them in the face while taking only minor damage which will automatically be healed because warframe shields regen.

 

-Yeah, definitely agree on the "no benefits" part. But as for the costs part, see my next point.

 

-I don't see this really being a problem after we've seen the terrible things caused by everyone trying to move in at once. Most people will back off and just play the no-tax Infested missions. Maybe one or two alliances will try to take one, motivated by pride, but I don't think it'll really keep up like this.

 

-Stunlock? For what?

 

-It would be a skinner box if the gameplay was mindless like in WoW (outside of new raids that you don't have the timings down for), or an older skinner box, the slot machine. The gameplay itself is fun and engaging. But the gameplay isn't that difficult, so it's kinda teetering on the edge.

 

So yeah, a lot of your points are good, but I don't agree with all of them.

 

---

 

Random thought time, maybe Scott is like Molyneux.

I don't really want to get this thread muddled in terms of arguing about the finer points, but...

 

Early Game Progression

No, getting mid-game players to keep playing is most important.  They have yet to give vets endgame.  Dark Sectors and Nightmare both could have been, but both implementations were terrible.

 

Stances

My point was that you shouldn't have to be grinding them.  Something so integral shouldn't be RNG-locked.  It's like getting a new frame and then having to go grind to find its abilities because they don't come with it.

 

Energy

The problem is that energy is unreliable.  You never know when you're going to have it and when RNG is going to curse you and refuse to give you blue orbs.  Other times, it gives them in excess, enabling power spam that needs to be held in check by high energy costs.

 

AI

There are some things it is terribad at.  Other things it's inhumanly good at.

 

Dark Sectors

Unless rails are made more rare through, their deployment won't be exciting.  At the moment, anyone and their brother can buy one, so we're just inevitably going to be in constant conflict.

 

Stunlock

I don't understand the question.

 

Skinner Box

There's zero difficulty which is what makes it so bad.  If the game was actually challenging (challenging != bullet sponges) and skill mattered, it wouldn't be nearly as bad.

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actually while going melee you are gonna be channeling over 50% of the time, and since you can get +220 channeling damage with 3 mods adding focus energy to counter the efficiency drawback and getting electrical damage and you are 1 hitting everything for the same price

You haven't run the numbers for Corrupt Charge, have you?  With replacing your lowest DPS impacting mod with Killing Blow already, you'll wind up replacing another mod that impacts DPS more to fit in Corrupt Charge.  That works out so that your channeled DPS goes up by something like 0.6% (yup, 0.6%, not 6%), at a cost of lowering your non-channeled DPS sufficiently that you would have to channel 93% or more of the time for it to be worth it, and you'll be paying 40% of the base cost of 5 more (so 5 instead of 3 if it and Focus Energy are the only two mods you have that impact Channeling Efficiency).  It is, in other words, one of those crap channel mods not worth using.

 

And as to Focus Energy, it is worth using, but that is partially because the devs still haven't gotten around to standardizing melee's electrical damage mod to the 15% it should be.  When they actually decide to fix obvious bugs like that, it won't be just a free benefit anymore, but will cost you DPS to use, which will further lower the benefit of a build with a channeling focus (as then using Focus Energy over Shocking Touch would cost you 8% of your damage, which would in turn drastically raise the amount of time you have to spend channeling for channeling mods to be worth using).  For now though, definitely worth using, especially if you don't have one of the event mods.

 

Killing Blow is debatable.  It does raise your channeling DPS by about 15% over not using it, and you only have to channel about 47% of the time to make it worthwhile.  But that does ignore the opportunity cost of that energy, which can be quite significant for many frames.  Still, if you enjoy meleeing, it, like Focus Energy, isn't a bad choice.

Edited by Axterix13
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I'm reaching the same point I did around U7 where I'm questioning the path of the devs and considering leaving for a while... There's so much cool stuff to do in this game... But time and again, I'm seeing things marred by excessive RNG, absurd numerics, or just plain poor design/implementation.

Look, I'm not expecting perfection from DE. But.. It's just so discouraging to see the same sort of things happen again and again and again.

And before someone tries to suggest that I should give suggestions, take a look at my post count. Look at the mega-thread list on this page. There are other things that I haven't even released yet (one is about mods for instance, but it uses the reasoning provided by another unreleased document whose author has elected to wait given the upheaval of U13).  Alternatively, look in the spoiler below...

 

-Major problems with the new player experience like power growth

 

-Obvious balance problems with frames and weapons that could be fixed (or at least stop-gap-fixed) with mere number changes

 

-Obvious QoL problems with frames that have simple solutions that the community came up with a year ago

 

-Difficulty that is entirely numerical

 

-Melee 2.0 introduced RNG-gated combos and poor channeling mod options while completely forgetting that you can't kill an enemy that your ally killed from 30m while you were running towards that opponent

 

-Damage 2.0 didn't actually fix builds or armor scaling, it just added combo elements (which IMO are cool, but didn't actually fix anything)

 

-Mods 2.0 standardized mod value (not even sure this is a good thing), added pretty pictures (which admittedly are really cool), broke puncture for the longest time, reduced mod slots which resulted in reduced flexibility of builds, and made duplicates near-useless

 

-Nightmare uses RNG to determine which handicap you're given, none of which bother some frames, so most players just revert to using Rhino

 

-Egregious grinding keys for bosses.  Lephantis was problematic at implementation, but was balanced with new players in mind (I can accept that, but I wish instead they'd have made the cost of keys slowly scale up over the first few weeks of the update to allow existing players access to it).  Vay Hek is just insane and I'm never going to farm those.  I just won't.  It took me 42 runs to get Nyx.  I'm not going to tolerate far more than that.

 

-Fundamental problems with the energy system's RNG nature and utter dependence on Energy Siphon (or expendable objects which are in opposition to the spirit of the game)

 

-AI is stupid

 

-AI aimbots you no matter what you're doing or how many times you teleport out of their field of vision

 

-Leaders don't actually cause you to play differently

 

-Dark Sectors ownership offers no benefit and is actually a bad thing (even with a 100% tax rate, you couldn't recoup your battle pay and repair costs with the current way things are)

 

-Dark Sectors will always be in constant conflict unless Solar Rails have their cost increased by an order of magnitude or two to actually account for the fact that they're being built by alliances of 4k players.  Right now, I can nearly build one myself.  That's absurd.

 

-Stunlock isn't avoidable

 

-I could go on much longer, but the most important thing is this: everything is a skinner box.  There's no time to just sit back and enjoy playing the game for its own sake because the meta is dominated by "must... get... next... item..."  The game is constantly putting up goal posts.  Just as you reach those, others are put down.  It's a never-ending feeling of incompleteness.  It's as if the game doesn't want you to just play it.

Look, I'm sure I'm not right about everything. I'm sure I don't have the best ideas to fix things. But there are problems out there, problems that the community has identified with ease that just go unfixed for so long when the change isn't even that large.

Does Scott need subordinates to help him? Maybe he's just overworked... Maybe Steve is the one that needs assistance? I don't know... They come on the streams and talk perfect sense, but the implementation just doesn't line up with that... It's just a disconnect... Why?

It would be so easy to pump out conspiracy theories. They've given us tons of conspiracy fodder. I've elected not to, but it would be so easy...

What's the problem here? Why does this keep happening?  

 

It's not like they don't pay attention to the community.  There are several forum members (myself included) that the devs recognize when on the streams and one of our questions is read off. Many of these members post routinely reasonable and constructive suggestions that would improve the game (myself hopefully included).  The devs post hot topics.  Rebecca posts a ton in threads trying to help out players and relays information to the devs she finds particularly important.  I don't mind that Steve and Scott post rarely.  In my own experience as a dev, when you do post and you're an actual designer, not just a CM, you get bombarded by requests and your own opinion is taken as the official view of the team.  I can empathize with that.

 

 

I just don't get it...  What's going wrong?  I want to give them the benefit of the doubt, but just calling them inept or money grubbers is a whole lot easier...

Could not of said it better myself. 

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I've gotten upset and made long posts about DE and the poor design choices they make, and it's finally come to the point that I don't care anymore.

 

The only solution I see is hiring new game designers, and I highly doubt that'll happen. The current design team has proven again and again that they do not understand the core issues within their own game, nor how to solve them. I became a founder based on the potential this game had, and I'm coming to terms that this potential will never be realized. The game design team simply lacks the direction and talent to make it happen.

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I've gotten upset and made long posts about DE and the poor design choices they make, and it's finally come to the point that I don't care anymore.

 

The only solution I see is hiring new game designers, and I highly doubt that'll happen. The current design team has proven again and again that they do not understand the core issues within their own game, nor how to solve them. I became a founder based on the potential this game had, and I'm coming to terms that this potential will never be realized. The game design team simply lacks the direction and talent to make it happen.

I think phil may have hit it on the head earlier...

while(true){     Problem p = community.findProblem();     devs.notice(p);     Content c = devs.addCoolStuffRelatingTo(p);     if(c.isCool)     {          devs.release(c);          continue;     }     devs.fix(p);}
Edited by Volt_Cruelerz
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Amen to that. 

 

Every update involving major changes always leaves me feeling disappointed. Now don't get me wrong, I appreciate these updates and the work the Devs put in them, but they always do something at the last minute that makes everything fall flat on it's face.

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I just don't get it...  What's going wrong?  I want to give them the benefit of the doubt, but just calling them inept or money grubbers is a whole lot easier...

 

Great post.  I'm fairly certain both are true.  Executive meddling probably makes the kind of detail and care we want to see uneconomical, so DE focuses on things that brings them profit.  Frankly, I'm surprised melee 2.0 was given the goahead considering they can't charge platinum for it.  It was fairly well done.  But a broken clock is right twice a day.

 

Many weapons are still underpowered.  Frames like rhino, nova, and trinity haven't even been touched.  Valkyr is still in a shoddy, binary state.  Many mods like critical delay and vile precision are in the dumps while modding in general is in a horrible state where all you build is damage and elemental damage.

 

Meanwhile, the game is still grindy as ever and RNG plagues nigh every system in the game.  The "endgame content" we were promised is shaping up to be yet more grind, as the Focus system promises even more power creep and nothing interesting, substantial or replayable.

 

DE just doesn't seem to be trying.  They appear to be the most underachieving, unambitious developer team I've ever seen.  And the sad part is, because they're running a gougetastic f2p business model with grindwalls and variety-limiting paywalls (slots and potatoes), they can afford to be so, and they'll still make tons and tons of profit.

 

There are people who like the game as is, and don't want anything to change or improve.  That's a given with any game.  They're part of the reason why DE seems convinced their game is perfect and doesn't require any radical overhauls or refinements.  Meanwhile, the people like you and I who care about warframe but are dissatisfied and want it to be improved go ignored, and grow fewer and fewer as they grow disillusioned and simply leave.

 

I don't want to just uninstall.  I want to see Warframe become something awesome.  It has that potential.  DE just needs to share that same desire; to make Warframe into a Great game instead of merely a Popular game.

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