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So Many Things Marred By Poor Design/implementation...


Volt_Cruelerz
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I think phil may have hit it on the head earlier...

while(true){     Problem p = community.findProblem();     devs.notice(p);     Content c = devs.addCoolStuffRelatingTo(p);     if(c.isCool)     {          devs.release(c);          continue;     }     devs.fix(p);}

 

I actually laughed out loud.

 

Just to confirm...is this what devs.fix(p) does?

 

devs.fix(p){     prinf("%p.name is fixed!");      p.status="fixed";     return(0);}

 

I don't want to just uninstall.  I want to see Warframe become something awesome.  It has that potential.  DE just needs to share that same desire; to make Warframe into a Great game instead of merely a Popular game.

 

I agree, and I'm not giving up.

 

What's so frustrating is Warframe is soooo close. If they spent U12 and U13 addressing real issues like lack of distinct content (EG: quest-type system) and lack of progressive balance, it would be in an entirely different place.

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I actually laughed out loud.

 

Just to confirm...is this what devs.fix(p) does?

devs.fix(p){     prinf("%p.name is fixed!");      p.status="fixed";     return(0);}

I agree, and I'm not giving up.

 

What's so frustrating is Warframe is soooo close. If they spent U12 and U13 addressing real issues like lack of distinct content (EG: quest-type system) and lack of progressive balance, it would be in an entirely different place.

Nah, Developer::fix(Problem p) works just fine and actually addresses the issue.  The bug in the code is the unnecessary continue which blocks fix() from ever being performed. ;)

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Does Scott need subordinates to help him? Maybe he's just overworked... Maybe Steve is the one that needs assistance?

 

 

They do but when people keep crying that they dont want to play a couple of hours to get a couple of the new stand mods so they have to adjust the drop rate so people get stuff mega quickly it messes up their system and now they have to think of new ways to implement stuff to bring money in to hire more people. So do you now get it?

 

The more stuff you want for free naoh, the more work you give them to come up with ways to generate income. The players are delaying the game, the players are causing this.

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They do but when people keep crying that they dont want to play a couple of hours to get a couple of the new stand mods so they have to adjust the drop rate so people get stuff mega quickly it messes up their system and now they have to think of new ways to implement stuff to bring money in to hire more people. So do you now get it?

 

The more stuff you want for free naoh, the more work you give them to come up with ways to generate income. The players are delaying the game, the players are causing this.

Except that line of reasoning relies on the assumption that the people that are complaining only care about getting the mods through RNG.  I can't recall a single thread that just wanted drop rates improved.  I've seen about a dozen, however, that just wanted RNG to get its grubby paws off stances altogether.  It also assumes that the devs have no responsibility to implement things in accordance with what the community wants and has clearly demonstrated that they want through past statements.

 

The second part assumes that the playerbase doesn't give suggestions for new ways to generate income.  In nearly every suggestion thread I make, I either explicitly or implicitly take into account the income of the devs.  Perhaps I'm the exception, but I rather doubt it as I've seen a ton of other players do the same thing.  Here's one I haven't posted yet: don't release a weapon and its upgrade at the same time.  If you want to make money off potatoes and forma, don't release the base and the upgrade together (Nikana and Dragon Nikana).

Edited by Volt_Cruelerz
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Nah, Developer::fix(Problem p) works just fine and actually addresses the issue.  The bug in the code is the unnecessary continue which blocks fix() from ever being performed. ;)

 

LOL...laughing even harder

 

 In nearly every suggestion thread I make, I either explicitly or implicitly take into account the income of the devs.

 

DE's monetization is a large secondary issue.

 

Half of DE's revenue model is players paying for the ability to collect (frames/slots), purchase cosmetics, and...let's admit it, paying for power (potatoes and cats).

 

I'm fine with this half of their model, and honestly wish they had more interesting (and correspondingly expensive) cosmetics to purchase.

 

However, the other half of DE's revenue model is tied into getting us to pay to skip gameplay.

 

Because of this, they're incentivized to make acquiring new items as painful-as-can-be-tolerated. And they're not motivated to make the process of obtaining said items more interesting. Plat trading benefits from horrible RNG/prime dilution.

 

"Want Hydroid? Go bang your head into a wall for a week. Or pay us $10."

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Except that line of reasoning relies on the assumption that the people that are complaining only care about getting the mods through RNG.  I can't recall a single thread that just wanted drop rates improved.  I've seen about a dozen, however, that just wanted RNG to get its grubby paws off stances altogether.  .

 

If think there arent constant complains about RNG on every single level that number of post you proclaimed to mean something actually means nothing.

 

This happens every single time something is release, EVERY SINGLE TIME.

It's like memories are erased somehow between updates.

 

It also assumes that the devs have no responsibility to implement things in accordance with what the community wants and has clearly demonstrated that they want through past statements.

 

This is assuming that the Devs make content to last a specific amount of time to cover how long it lasts for the implementation of new stuff. Which is something folks do not seem to understand.

 

This is just a silly endless loop.

New stuff comes out, boooo i want it now.

Better drop rates get added, booooo i have nothing to do now.

Here's a sneak peak at new stuff, booooo why isnt this out now?

 

The second part assumes that the playerbase doesn't give suggestions for new ways to generate income.  In nearly every suggestion thread I make, I either explicitly or implicitly take into account the income of the devs.  Perhaps I'm the exception, but I rather doubt it as I've seen a ton of other players do the same thing.  Here's one I haven't posted yet: don't release a weapon and its upgrade at the same time.  If you want to make money off potatoes and forma, don't release the base and the upgrade together (Nikana and Dragon Nikana)

\

 

Here's the thing... you dont know the money flow on DE with this game in any sort of level. You giving ideas is awesome but that really means nothing when it comes to the overall plan they have.

 

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This is assuming that the Devs make content to last a specific amount of time to cover how long it lasts for the implementation of new stuff. Which is something folks do not seem to understand.

 

This is just a silly endless loop.

New stuff comes out, boooo i want it now.

Better drop rates get added, booooo i have nothing to do now.

Here's a sneak peak at new stuff, booooo why isnt this out now?

 

 

That is because DE keeps creating one-off consumable content. Once you spend the X hours to farm Vay Hek's key and then get Hydroid's drops, you're done. You have no reason to see that content again.

 

DE could give you a million reasons to keep running that content. Challenges for beating Vay Hek in X seconds. A Senei/Senpai system to run low Mastery Rank 'pupils' through that content (hmmm, I'll work on that). Vay Hek spawns in other existing content.

 

But no, they position their content in the most consumable, throwaway manner possible. That is their fault, not the players.

 

Content creation does not have to be a silly endless loop. People are still playing videogames that ended production years ago, with no new dev content being added.

 

DE either needs to:

-get serious about dynamic content generation (use RNG in the 'right' way - unique content that creates itself, or diablo-esque drops)

-create a framework for fast production of scripted content (EG: Cells, or a quest system like proxy wars is supposed to be)

-allow player driven content creation or player driven challenge (what one could imagine Dark Sectors could be if clans really built/defended towers)

 

 

Here's the thing... you dont know the money flow on DE with this game in any sort of level. You giving ideas is awesome but that really means nothing when it comes to the overall plan they have.

 

We, the customers are the one's that the money flows from. Because of that, we inherently decide whether the Dev's plan is on target.

 

How? Customers can choose to stop paying, new games come out all the time.

 

Don't forget how many MMO's which reached millions of players die every year. Some with 30 times MORE registered accounts than WF has.

Edited by notionphil
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If think there arent constant complains about RNG on every single level that number of post you proclaimed to mean something actually means nothing.

 

This happens every single time something is release, EVERY SINGLE TIME.

It's like memories are erased somehow between updates.

 

 

 

 

This is assuming that the Devs make content to last a specific amount of time to cover how long it lasts for the implementation of new stuff. Which is something folks do not seem to understand.

 

This is just a silly endless loop.

New stuff comes out, boooo i want it now.

Better drop rates get added, booooo i have nothing to do now.

Here's a sneak peak at new stuff, booooo why isnt this out now?

 

 

\

 

Here's the thing... you dont know the money flow on DE with this game in any sort of level. You giving ideas is awesome but that really means nothing when it comes to the overall plan they have.

You're still thinking that drop rates themselves are the issue here.  It's that the system never should have been RNG in the first place.

 

I assume it because it's true.  And I want them to stop trying to just spit out enough content to cover themselves till the next update.  I want them to work on improving the gameplay itself so that they don't have to work as hard to spit out new content constantly.

 

If I don't know anything, then neither do you and your "correcting" me is no more productive than my posting in the first place.  Your point?  Also, the fact that we are their monetary source inherently makes our vision of the game relevant.

Edited by Volt_Cruelerz
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This is just a silly endless loop.

New stuff comes out, boooo i want it now.

Better drop rates get added, booooo i have nothing to do now.

Here's a sneak peak at new stuff, booooo why isnt this out now?

I don't know about anyone else but under Creationist belief the Earth was made a few thousand years ago and even now it still hasn't run out of content.

Ba dum tsh.

 

 

If think there arent constant complains about RNG on every single level that number of post you proclaimed to mean something actually means nothing.

 

This is assuming that the Devs make content to last a specific amount of time to cover how long it lasts for the implementation of new stuff. Which is something folks do not seem to understand.

RNG is the literal contradiction to your statement here. 

You can't build randomly generated rewards to last people until the next set. Some people are done long before, others are done long after, even if they put in the same pacing and hours per day.

Edited by LukeAura
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Why aren't they "fixing" it?

 

Put in the simplest, most reduced form, my guess is unreasonable demands by higher-ups. Scott is the face of the WF team, but we as gamers should know that team leads aren't necessarily in complete and total charge of what goes on in the project. They more often make for useful flak jackets for their superiors, who might be telling him to speed up production so they can turn a profit off of Tenno Reinforcements or $100 player packs (disgusting). Because we don't really know who Scott's superiors are (do the Schmalzes still run DE?), we turn to the face we recognize as the brains behind WF: Scott. And then we directly blame the rest of the WF team.

 

I'm not calling for any conspiracy theories with this admittedly highly-reduced explanation, but it's a pattern I've seen again and again with numerous games (see Yoshinori Ono and the Street Fighter 4 franchise). The WF team does have some really awesome ideas, and we tend to get what you could call the cookie dough after the WF team gathered all of the eggs, chocolate chips, walnuts, and other ingredients. No matter how great those ideas sound, we don't even get a half-baked product. It's more like completely unbaked, then left to sit on the counter while they make more cookie dough because the head chef is telling them that they need to churn something out now. There's a Reddit thread that has a link to a google doc with strings from the game's code, and in this code are working designs for actual storylines in quests. It's the kind of thing that the devstreams hype up, then never fully deliver. I can't find that thread, though, and if someone else could link it I'd appreciate it.

 

I could be completely wrong in my guesswork. I am, after all, just drawing upon what I've seen before in other companies. But who knows. Maybe we're dissatisfied not because the WF team is completely incompetent, but because they're horribly rushed and have no other choice but to release bits and pieces of barely-formed ideas.

 

Their notions of rebalancing, for example, all feel like afterthoughts (except for the bow buff, that's honestly one of the few really good things they've done to the game lately). Something I've been wanting to see for a while now are test servers. TF2, as the most accessible example, has them. Players can experiment with ideas the devs are cooking up, then provide feedback sot hat they're refined before release. It's a very direct player-to-developer dialogue that helps makes the jobs of both the players and the developers easier. True, they haven't been updated for over a year, but that doesn't detract from how useful they were in the past.

 

Maybe restrict these test realms to Founders. It'd give them something to do besides vote on concept drawings of next week's weapons, anyway. And considering how long these players have been around, they likely know this game's ins and outs, what it has and hasn't been doing well for over a year. They could provide valuable feedback so creating this game would be less of a burden for both player and developer.

Edited by Noble_Cactus
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Why aren't they "fixing" it?

 

Put in the simplest, most reduced form, my guess is unreasonable demands by higher-ups. Scott is the face of the WF team, but we as gamers should know that team leads aren't necessarily in complete charge of what goes on in the project. They more often make for useful flak jackets for their superiors, who might be telling him to speed up production so they can turn a profit off of Tenno Reinforcements or $100 player packs (disgusting). Because we don't really know who Scott's superiors are (do the Schmalzes still run DE?), we turn to the face we recognize as the brains behind WF: Scott. And then we directly blame the rest of the WF team.

If anything It sounds like the Corpus marketing team is in charge after how early the Grineer Systems site was released.

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That is because DE keeps creating one-off consumable content. Once you spend the X hours to farm Vay Hek's key and then get Hydroid's drops, you're done. You have no reason to see that content again.

 

DE could give you a million reasons to keep running that content. Challenges for beating Vay Hek in X seconds. A Senei/Senpai system to run low Mastery Rank 'pupils' through that content (hmmm, I'll work on that). Vay Hek spawns in other existing content.

 

But no, they position their content in the most consumable, throwaway manner possible. That is their fault, not the players.

 

Content creation does not have to be a silly endless loop. People are still playing videogames that ended production years ago, with no new dev content being added.

 

DE either needs to:

-get serious about dynamic content generation (use RNG in the 'right' way - unique content that creates itself, or diablo-esque drops)

-create a framework for fast production of scripted content (EG: Cells, or a quest system like proxy wars is supposed to be)

-allow player driven content creation or player driven challenge (what one could imagine Dark Sectors could be if clans really built/defended towers)

 

 

These are all First Player Problems which are currently being looked at.

People keep treating this game as a finished game because of whatever goofy reason they come up with.

They are slowly, yes SLOWLY, spreading stuff out to get you back to certain areas. Hek, i just got all the pieces for Ember Prime but i dont have the BP and i just said you get that from ODD. I havent been there since i was farming for Biolab mats. Stuff is coming so chillax.

 

 

We, the customers are the one's that the money flows from. Because of that, we inherently decide whether the Dev's plan is on target.

 

How? Customers can choose to stop paying, new games come out all the time.

 

Don't forget how many MMO's which reached millions of players die every year. Some with 30 times MORE registered accounts than WF has.

 

You should look at your evidence before throwing it out there. In the first two pages every game but one died becasue the companies in charge didnt fell like continuing with the game. Meaning, it had nothing to do with player problems.

 

You're still thinking that drop rates themselves are the issue here.  It's that the system never should have been RNG in the first place.

 

Heh, so the "problem" isnt the system, the "problem" is that the system should be used.

 

Sorry, man, but this is the system we have, so this is the problem that exist. This is a loot game and this is the standard system to loot games. If you want a change for that you are going to have to wait a looooooooooooooooooong time because this type of game is built for that system.  You are asking for them to pop out a brand new game if you want this system changed.

 

I assume it because it's true.  And I want them to stop trying to just spit out enough content to cover themselves till the next update.  I want them to work on improving the gameplay itself so that they don't have to work as hard to spit out new content constantly.

 

I threw out this idea a while back and all that came back was, "woah, woah, are you nuts!?"

You got to start reading the board, the board pushes and pull on the same thing and some times they are actually saying nothing.

 

If I don't know anything, then neither do you and your "correcting" me is no more productive than my posting in the first place.  Your point?  Also, the fact that we are their monetary source inherently makes our vision of the game relevant.

 

Im not correcting anyone, i am just stating that when people say, "I threw some ideas, why arent they using them?" They dont know exactly that is the current scope of the game is and if this matches with what is being brought up.  You cant simply say that this is a sure idea on how to make money without knowing how the actual money is made by the game.

 

 

 

RNG is the literal contradiction to your statement here. 

You can't build randomly generated rewards to last people until the next set. Some people are done long before, others are done long after, even if they put in the same pacing and hours per day.

 

They control the drop rates dude. The drop rates can dictate the chances.

This is one big thing now, people are complaining that they can get to the combos because the RNG is low.

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I think phil may have hit it on the head earlier...

while(true){     Problem p = community.findProblem();     devs.notice(p);     Content c = devs.addCoolStuffRelatingTo(p);     if(c.isCool)     {          devs.release(c);          continue;     }     devs.fix(p);}

 

The function should set the seeds for another bunch of new problems that arise as a consequence of "c" immediately after "c" is released to public. Eventually leading to exponential problem growth whereas even if the loop would not be set to true for all eternity it would not be able to escape the loop because of all the new problems being introduced in each iteration which will ultimatively kill Warframe if not addressed.

Edited by MeduSalem
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They control the drop rates dude. The drop rates can dictate the chances.

This is one big thing now, people are complaining that they can get to the combos because the RNG is low.

Some people are, some people aren't. Some people had TC in 5 minutes. Their Katana stance content farm is done, some people take 3 hours, 6, 9. Some people will run through the content before others. Low drop rates polarize content completion time.

They either make deterministic drops based on something other than rng, or they raise rng,

But if they up the drop rates then you'll say

 

 

 

Better drop rates get added, booooo i have nothing to do now.

 

So the solution, as was already said, is to remove rng.

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  You should look at your evidence before throwing it out there. In the first two pages every game but one died becasue the companies in charge didnt fell like continuing with the game. Meaning, it had nothing to do with player problems.

 

"didn't feel like continuing the game" =  unsustainable revenue/growth model = players not spending enough $ or joining fast enough to be profitable longterm

 

same can happen to any game. you are arguing it cant?

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Some people are, some people aren't. Some people had TC in 5 minutes. Their Katana stance content farm is done, some people take 3 hours, 6, 9. Some people will run through the content before others. Low drop rates polarize content completion time.

They either make deterministic drops based on something other than rng, or they raise rng,

But if they up the drop rates then you'll say

 

 

So the solution, as was already said, is to remove rng.

Not necessarily remove, but rather reduce the impact of.  For example, they could have given weapons access to a "default" stance mod.  Not by making a drop common (as that is pointless... you only need one of each stance), but rather by doing something like making the uncommon stances purchasable in the market for credits.  Charge 10k for the long sword's, and 100k for the katana's, with others in between.  Boom, people can get a stance for whatever weapon they like without having to fight the RNG, yet the rare stances can still drop wherever (and the uncommon ones as well).

Edited by Axterix13
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Not necessarily remove, but rather reduce the impact of.  For example, they could have given weapons access to a "default" stance mod.  Not by making a drop common (as that is pointless... you only need one of each stance), but rather by doing something like making the uncommon stances purchasable in the market for credits.  Charge 10k for the long sword's, and 100k for the katana's, with others in between.  Boom, people can get a stance for whatever weapon they like without having to fight the RNG, yet the rare stances can still drop wherever (and the uncommon ones as well).

exactly.
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I stopped playing this game once already because I was frustrated with the potato pay-wall even being a thing, and then got wind of "Forma" happening, as opposed to something that might make new frames not be bereft of defense mods for days.  So I come back, willing to see if the damage system changes helped much and if the coming melee update would be good.

 

And I find the damage system is less bonkers about indestructibly armored targets with tiny weak-spots, but still bonkers about overbearing status effects (especially ones that eat your health from beneath your shields), only now they are unreliable, bringing to mind the problems with status effects in old Final Fantasy games.  The random bleeding and burning is more powerful than the actual source, but sometimes it won't happen with an entire clip, and other times it happens from a single one shot.  That just makes it useless as a form of outgoing damage and terrifying as a form of incoming damage. (Edit: And why don't heat swords do heat damage on hit despite still alluding that they do?  There are plenty of counter examples that DO have an element in their base attack damage.  So, why?)

 

And I find the melee update's stances to be underwhelming and not very useful (aside from the mod points).  Spamming attacks is a bit stronger, and that's nice, but I still only get away with it by stun-locking all the enemies to death with a multi-target weapon (single target weapons are still a thing, it seems) and by virtue of now having an unreliable anti-stun-lock system involving being in an attack animation.  This makes no sense.  At least Grineer Rollers seem more manageable (they are also adorable when jumping up sequences of ledges), and Infested now die a bit more reliably when I shoot them.

 

And I find that Forma is actually easier to get than potatoes.  And you need it for crafting clan-researched weapons.  Wut.  At least aura mods mean I don't have to be naked at level 1.  But then I still will inevitably reach a point that says: "Hey! Can't progress further because the numbers are too high?  Pay us four bucks and we'll just instantly double the power potential of all your gear, no questions asked!"  Why can't I just go on an epic quest to find the legendary Orokin Tuber Patches, and maybe level up the stubs and clippings from each one by the respective fraction of their combined power while on the way to the next, like in other games?

 

And I find the title screen tries to melt my GPU by rendering at 350 fps.

 

I don't think I'll quit again just yet, but this is certainly a damper on my fun.

Edited by Salganos
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That is because DE keeps creating one-off consumable content. Once you spend the X hours to farm Vay Hek's key and then get Hydroid's drops, you're done. You have no reason to see that content again.

 

DE could give you a million reasons to keep running that content. Challenges for beating Vay Hek in X seconds. A Senei/Senpai system to run low Mastery Rank 'pupils' through that content (hmmm, I'll work on that). Vay Hek spawns in other existing content.

 

But no, they position their content in the most consumable, throwaway manner possible. That is their fault, not the players.

 

Content creation does not have to be a silly endless loop. People are still playing videogames that ended production years ago, with no new dev content being added.

 

DE either needs to:

-get serious about dynamic content generation (use RNG in the 'right' way - unique content that creates itself, or diablo-esque drops)

-create a framework for fast production of scripted content (EG: Cells, or a quest system like proxy wars is supposed to be)

-allow player driven content creation or player driven challenge (what one could imagine Dark Sectors could be if clans really built/defended towers)[

Yeah, having regional/global leaderboards for "lowest time on this mission" "highest time on this survival" "longest wave survived 'til on this defense", with the names (and clans/alliances they each belong to) of the players who hold that record on there, would be endgame content right there, a contest that encourages coming up with the most optimal loadouts, practicing teamwork, and other skills because it doesn't matter how tough the enemies are, what matters is how tough the other players are (without resorting to PvP).

 

It's such a simple idea, far easier to make than questlines or a balanced way of giving out stances, but it would work.

Edited by HiroProtagonest
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"didn't feel like continuing the game" =  unsustainable revenue/growth model = players not spending enough $ or joining fast enough to be profitable longterm

 

same can happen to any game. you are arguing it cant?

 

Dude. Toontown was closed when Disney shifted focus to mobile games, Grimlands ended when the publisher pulled out before release, Dungeon Fighter Online is the only tied down to anything close to players.

 

Read what you put down as proof before you actually put it down as proof. I dont even think that half of the game listed have anything to do with not getting money from players. Most of them are corporate decisions.

Edited by Mak_Gohae
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Dude. Toontown was closed when Disney shifted focus to mobile games, Grimlands ended when the publisher pulled out before release, Dungeon Fighter Online is the only tied down to anything close to players.

 

Read what you put down as proof before you actually put it down as proof. I dont even think that half of the game listed have anything to do with not getting money from players. Most of them are corporate decisions.

 

When ppl start arguing semantics, it's typically bc they can't support their initial position.

 

I didn't say every game in the world closed down because of lack of $. I said quite literally "there are MMOs that close down every year bc of lack of $", and linked to examples of that happening, one at the top of that very link.

 

I did not say that every single MMO closes for that exact reason*.

 

Warframe is a product with an finite addressable market, and a constant stream of emerging competition. We are that product's customers. If we are dissatisfied due to the product's direction, and choose to stop paying to use that product, it will fail, as has happened to many products in the past.

 

Do you disagree with that statement?

 

*Also, look through PR spin. "Corporate decisions" typically means, we weren't going to make money/we would make more money elsewhere.

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Bumping, and really just wanted to add a general statement.

 

To Mak_Gohae, and others who are trying to rebut the critiques of some of the jaded-sounding-vets in this thread.

 

I'm sorry that it probably feels like I and others in this thread are attacking you for defending Warframe.

 

I know I can't speak for everyone, but many of the vets in this thread really love and respect this game. I respect not just what DE has done, but also the potential for what they can do. We see glimpses of it.

 

However, we're frustrated at the ever growing gulf between what WF is, and what it could be. We critique constructively, offering ideas, feedback and suggestions because we want WF to prosper, not because we want to hurt it.

 

We critque when DE's solutions don't address their targeted problems, and we get more of the same despite pledges to the contrary.

 

We critique because we see our clans empty, and our RL friends no longer logging in. We critique because we see 5/100 online friends, when we used to see 50.

 

We critique because WF gets 6s and 7s in major periodical reviews, when it could score 9s and 10s if it seized its potential. Each lost point is a loss of thousands of potential friends, allies and consumers. Objective reviewers don't give points for blind love.

 

They score MMO-industry-standard-competence; the same contained in our suggestions such as no longer hiding everything behind RNG grind with paywalls as a safety valve, adding measured progression, enhancing end game challenge and creating balanced gameplay with equally viable options.

 

Defending Warframe simply for sake of loving it is more harmful than critiquing it.

 

Games really do die, communities really do migrate to newer products. Right this second, there is a constant flow of aggressively intelligent marketing and development teams competing with WF for your hour, and your dollar.

 

Telling DE that everything's OK, when the outside MMO community, and friends that have left can easily see its not... when we can visibly see the attrition and harsh reviews...is a sure-fire way to guarantee WF is not going to be here years from now.

 

So, please don't take offense. Instead try to understand that we want the same thing you do, Warframe's success.

 

We just believe a different path leads there.

Edited by notionphil
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Damage 2.0 didn't actually fix builds or armor growth. It just added combo elements.

 

While you usually post reasonable stuff, this one I'd have to dope-slap you upside the head because you seem to have forgotten what Damage 1.0 was.

 

Remember, Damage 1.0?

 

Armor-Ignore or GTFO?

 

Just two nights ago, I took a Dex Furis.......Dex Furis.... into a Lv35 area and I was actually killing mobs with it. Killing them fairly decently at that rate.

 

Back during Damage 1.0, the Lv35 equivalent would have been what, Lv60 or so? Now you tell me... would an AFuris have done anything at all to a Level 30+ mob, let alone a Lv60 one back during Damage 1.0? Even with your best mods, it'd probably take two whole clips to kill anything with armor on it.

 

I remember how the Acrid (or whatever that poison dart gun was called) was the King of Kings, and the Despair and Kunai were like Prince and Princess, and everything else were just commoners. The Acrid was one of *the* top weapons, beating everything else by a longshot in pure damage, mostly because it was armor-ignore and worked on everything.

 

Meanwhile, anything that did NOT have armor ignore (most guns), even with extreme mods, you had to either headshot, or you did next-to-nothing in damage. Tower III was nearly impossible without a whole loadout full of armor-ignore with the best mods, and I'm not even talking about Defense.

 

Nowadays, you don't run into wildly scaling armor unless you're doing ridiculously high wave defense (you really need to be fighting Lv50+ for this to kick in, and even Tier 3 Defense is done before it hits Lv50) or something stupid like an Hour+ survival.

 

IMO, I say "Good." because this puts a cap on these missions. There should be limits to these "endless" missions.

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While you usually post reasonable stuff, this one I'd have to dope-slap you upside the head because you seem to have forgotten what Damage 1.0 was.

 

Remember, Damage 1.0?

 

Armor-Ignore or GTFO?

 

Just two nights ago, I took a Dex Furis.......Dex Furis.... into a Lv35 area and I was actually killing mobs with it. Killing them fairly decently at that rate.

 

Back during Damage 1.0, the Lv35 equivalent would have been what, Lv60 or so? Now you tell me... would an AFuris have done anything at all to a Level 30+ mob, let alone a Lv60 one back during Damage 1.0? Even with your best mods, it'd probably take two whole clips to kill anything with armor on it.

 

I remember how the Acrid (or whatever that poison dart gun was called) was the King of Kings, and the Despair and Kunai were like Prince and Princess, and everything else were just commoners. The Acrid was one of *the* top weapons, beating everything else by a longshot in pure damage, mostly because it was armor-ignore and worked on everything.

 

Meanwhile, anything that did NOT have armor ignore (most guns), even with extreme mods, you had to either headshot, or you did next-to-nothing in damage. Tower III was nearly impossible without a whole loadout full of armor-ignore with the best mods, and I'm not even talking about Defense.

 

Nowadays, you don't run into wildly scaling armor unless you're doing ridiculously high wave defense (you really need to be fighting Lv50+ for this to kick in, and even Tier 3 Defense is done before it hits Lv50) or something stupid like an Hour+ survival.

 

IMO, I say "Good." because this puts a cap on these missions. There should be limits to these "endless" missions.

Good points and I'll admit that at the time of writing, I did blank on the whole armor-ignore reliance.  I'll update.

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Good points and I'll admit that at the time of writing, I did blank on the whole armor-ignore reliance.  I'll update.

 

I figured you weren't remembering it quite like it was or Something, because your stuff is usually pretty reasonable and good points, 'cept for this little blurb.

 

Good to know it was just a slip-up in memory, and nothing worse, lol.

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