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Power Damage Rework, Pros & Cons, Agree Or Disagree?


Hearlan
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What if...

 

Warframe Power's base damage did a percentage of enemy health

than afterwards that number was effects by Mods and Element Rules.

 

that way they could be just as fun at defense wave 1 to 100 and survival 5min to 5hrs

 

What do you guys think of this idea?

I know the coding and math would require quite the effort to implement

but lets say none of that was an issue.

 

If they pulled this off, this same algorithm could be applied to weapons

thus making almost all weapons viable no matter what

 

would you be for this or against it?

what are the pros and cons in your opinions? 

Edited by GPimptacular
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The best system I've read so far is essentially both.
Straight damage, with a percentage that either has a cap or is fixed. Abilities don't lose any effectiveness against low level enemies, retain value at all levels, and it is impossible to one shot everything with powers forever the end.

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Bad idea.  Very bad idea.

 

It weakens them early, removes the possibility of further expansion of the powers later, and ignores that we are not supposed to be able to go deep, deep into endless modes.  The problem isn't that powers get weak, as most do just fine against level 40-50 mobs, which is about where we're supposed to top off.  It is that there's quite a few defensive powers that are, quite frankly, overpowered, and this makes it too easy to survive, therefore leading people to wanting to go further and further, as well as complaining about lack of challenge.  Of course, overpowered weapon mods don't help either.

 

I'd rather see the overpowered things toned down, rather than adding still more to the mix.

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Bad idea. Very bad idea.

It weakens them early, removes the possibility of further expansion of the powers later, and ignores that we are not supposed to be able to go deep, deep into endless modes. The problem isn't that powers get weak, as most do just fine against level 40-50 mobs, which is about where we're supposed to top off. It is that there's quite a few defensive powers that are, quite frankly, overpowered, and this makes it too easy to survive, therefore leading people to wanting to go further and further, as well as complaining about lack of challenge. Of course, overpowered weapon mods don't help either.

I'd rather see the overpowered things toned down, rather than adding still more to the mix.

So, what would be the benefit of preventing us from going ad infinitum in endless modes?

I can't think of a single one, especially as it's as close to 'endgame' as we have.

Also, what is the drawback to letting all frames have at least one scaling* ability(instead of just a handful of frames)? Again, none that I can foresee.

*scaling = base dmg + % of hp in the case of a pure dmg power. Or dmg + utility.

Edited by notionphil
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I think at some point they are just going to have to buff the damage abilities on caster frames since the abilities just haven't kept up with prime weapons, new mods, forma and damage 2.0 power creep. If you can do damage in the tens of thousands with your gun why do you care about 500 damage from your abilities?

 

Its why we are where we are in warframe. Good warframes are defined by the CC and group buffs they bring and not their damaging abilities.

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The best system I've read so far is essentially both.

Straight damage, with a percentage that either has a cap or is fixed. Abilities don't lose any effectiveness against low level enemies, retain value at all levels, and it is impossible to one shot everything with powers forever the end.

This.

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I know the coding and math would require quite the effort to implement

 

No it wouldn't.  It'd be extremely easy to implement.

 

Anyway, as others have mentioned, a mixture of percentage damage and flat damage would be the most prudent approach.  That said, this wouldn't be an issue if the game's balance was in check, and didn't have to rely on infinitely scaling enemies for its difficulty.

 

Oh well.

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So, what would be the benefit of preventing us from going ad infinitum in endless modes?

I can't think of a single one, especially as it's as close to 'endgame' as we have.

Also, what is the drawback to letting all frames have at least one scaling* ability(instead of just a handful of frames)? Again, none that I can foresee.

*scaling = base dmg + % of hp in the case of a pure dmg power. Or dmg + utility.

There are multiple drawbacks for letting us go infinite in endless modes  The biggest one is that it hinders the ability of the devs to expand the game in the future.  Right now, they could do something like add T4-6, and with it, new and more powerful ability mods.  Those mods would be earned through doing the content, enabling us to have progression.  However, if what we have is already good enough, then there's no point to introducing higher level stuff, because it is all the same.  What we have can already handle it all.  Since this game is F2P, there will constantly be new stuff added to encourage us to buy things.  Gutting the benefit of new tiers limits one aspect of that.

 

There's also the issue with a high hp boss.  You know, your standard "raid boss".  That would mean damage would need be capped at some point.  And that in turn would create issues again for content design, between ammo usage and so on.

 

It also ignores that our powers are pretty much fine now for the content we're supposed to be able to do.  And that doesn't include it being trivial for everyone to go 40m in survival.  Enemies ramp up fast beyond a certain point for just that reason.  It is only due to design issues that we can easily go that far.

 

As to frames having one scaling ability, one big drawback is what we already see with various frames: one power dominates, the others are seen as worthless, and then people use corrupt mods to further boost that power, since they won't care about its drawback because it doesn't really apply to that power, and that it does to their other ones doesn't matter, because those are "worthless".  Balance is needed.  Not more imbalance.

 

Furthermore, you're trying to fix a problem with certain things being overpowered by making still more things overpowered.  Nova's M-Prime's 100% extra damage, for example, will be an issue in the future if DE ever wants to introduce a proper end game... it doubles everyone's damage, making Nova worth an extra four players' worth of DPS.  If they ever want to introduce a high hp job, that can't be allowed to stand.  AMD can be used so that it benefits from the previous AMD's explosion.  This again means that a Nova will massively outdamage anyone else... and again, if they want to introduce a high hp boss, that can't stand.  Trinity's Blessing?  Any content that is supposed to be hard will need some way to nullify it.  And for that matter, if we step away from just powers, look at the impact weapon mods have.  They scale weapons so much that weapons either need to be worthless out the box or else they are overpowered when fully modded.  The latter is where we are at now, and this makes it easy for people to go deep into Endless modes.

 

I also think you're under-estimating how long many powers are useful.

 

Mind you, I do think some tweaks need to be made.  I just don't think percentage based damage is the answer.  I think the devs need to do is set some proper guidelines.  They need to define what tiers go with roughly what mastery levels, and what level of damage goes with those mastery levels as well, and then properly apply that across the board.  They need to reduce the amount of scaling weapon mods provide to weapons, so that weapons can have high enough base damage to be useful without a catalyst or even while ranking them up, while at the same time not being overpowered with formas, a catalyst, and the right mods.  And they do need to tweak various powers, including the whole power cost structure.  And the amount resists/vulnerabilities impact things.  And armor/hp scaling on armored mobs needs to be looked at, to make sure their effective hp scales at about the same rate as those of other mobs.  And so on.

 

Basically, what needs to be address is that which makes you look at level 100 mobs as "a challenge", when it is supposed to be mobs half that level that do that, as well as that which makes us use "4" a lot more than "1".

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