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Frost. Need Help With Build


(PSN)friedricetheman
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Hi,

I am stumped on how to build Frost for Defense missions after the recent changes. Is steel fiber worth it on Frost? Or should I remove it for something else?

This is my build after 2 forma. It performs decently enough on T3 Def but we usually stop at wave 40 so I am not sure whether if this build can go endless defense or not.

Is there anyway to make frost snow globe work without slapping on a maxed blind rage (and upping the energy cost considerably)?

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you don't need steel fiber for frost frost have good resistent armor... you may need redirection is very important for a warframe to have a great capacitity of shield an change vitality for vigor...  for a great resisting snow globo you need blind rage an intensify for good defense... you can take out rage blind rage... if you like can put another forma on your aura for energy siphon for a less consume of energy and than can change fleeling expertise for contitution or continuty for a more longer snow globo if u like... 

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you don't need steel fiber for frost frost have good resistent armor... you may need redirection is very important for a warframe to have a great capacitity of shield an change vitality for vigor...  for a great resisting snow globo you need blind rage an intensify for good defense... you can take out rage blind rage... if you like can put another forma on your aura for energy siphon for a less consume of energy and than can change fleeling expertise for contitution or continuty for a more longer snow globo if u like...

I have tried frost without steel fiber but the snow globe just dissipates within 7 seconds. Snow Globe is now affected by power strength, and frost's armor value multiply by 5, in addition to power duration.

I even tried it with maxed blind rage and intensify. The energy cost ballooned up stupendously, making snow globe costing way too much.

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Welcome to the world of Frost, Friedricetheman.

 

FrostSGBuild_zpse67edc4c.jpg

 

This is my Frost build. I have the benefit of having a regular sized snow globe with the regular 30 second duration. However, it does have roughly 7000 HP before damage absorption is taken into account and a whopping 1710 Armor. It works very well for me.

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This is my Frost build. I have the benefit of having a regular sized snow globe with the regular 30 second duration. However, it does have roughly 7000 HP before damage absorption is taken into account and a whopping 1710 Armor. It works very well for me.

 

Typo? 190 armor +110% (maxxed SF, which you dont even have) is only 399 armor. Even with the armor helm its only 447 armor.

 

SF adds 209 armor to Frost, which adds 1045 health to his snowglobe. IMO it's not worth 14 points.

 

This is my snowglobe/defense setup, giving a 25 energy SG that lasts for over 40 sec and still has more than 7k health.

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Darzk,

 

I am constantly jumping between various frames and the like and only apply forma as necessary to certain frames. I don't feel Frost merits a second Forma yet, as it seems somewhat wasted to aim for additional duration when his snow globe has a certain level of health that causes the effect to end prematurely. The basic 30 seconds is more than sufficient and anything over that is wasted potential against higher level enemies.

 

Additionally, I find that builds are more fun when they are less hyper-focused on achieving a single goal. This gives me the flexibility to do things outside of being a One Trick Pony, as many players often do with various Frames (Such as Loki, Frost, and Nova). I strongly believe in being flexible with your builds so that you can adapt to various situations instead of relying on a single tactic for a frame. This may seem moot, as I am openly proposing an otherwise OTP build for Frost's Snow Globe. Rather than saying "Here's a build that is all about X with Snow Globe", I'm offering up an extremely balanced option that is more viable than someone who focuses on Duration or Power or Armor alone.

 

Looking over the build you have offered, I find myself concerned that you are making the push for extra duration. As I have already stated, 30 seconds (or therebouts) is more than enough time on its own. Anything more than that, and you're losing the edge against higher level enemies. Anything less and you run into the gambit of needing to cast it more often which can result in energy issues. Moreover, the loss of size on your Snow Globe is not a benefit. In many ways, it is actually hurting you. A larger snow globe means more protected area for yourself and your allies. It also means that it has a much larger area to be hit by enemies, making it much easier to maximize your Absorption Time. That being said, too much size is equally as bad as too little. The regular size has worked well for me. I may not be able to maximize the absorption phase, but I also don't run the risk of Rapid Burnout due to the massive size either (Or worse, enemies entering the globe en mass, thus virtually negating the benefit of absorbing and blocking damage). The only benefit I see to your build is the Slow Field. By choosing the larger area, along with more Active Defense (Redirection) and the inclusion of Ice Wave, the build you suggested strikes me as a Close-Quarters Frost, with an emphasis on Snow Globe as a last resort.

 

If your main complaint is that I have not maxed Steel Fiber, then I have little to take away from your suggestion. Given that our builds serve different purposes, I do not feel it is necessary to compare them on a Usable basis. However, I take issue with the claim that your build provides a stronger snow globe, as the following bit of math will prove.

 

FrostPrimeSGStatswithLoadout_zpsd5af64d4

 

This is my Frost, using the build I mentioned in my original reply. This Screenshot is only to showcase his Stats, as well as my choice of weapon load out to best compliment such a focused style of play.

 

Let's begin with Snow Globe's Health. At max rank, it has a base health value of 3500. Squall Helm + Intensify (Rank 5) + Blind Rage (Rank 5) = +99% Power Strength. 3500 + (3500 x .99) = 3500 + 3465 = 6965 Health. This is with the build I use. Using the build you linked, you have only +81% Power Strength due to your Rank 3 Blind Rage. 3500 + (3500 x .81) = 3500 + 2835 = 6335 Health. In this regard, my build has more base Health for Snow Globe by 630.

 

As for Armor, I trust you realize that Snow Globe's armor is equal to 5 times that of Frost's armor. With the build I suggested , Frost has a base armor of 342. 5 x 342 = 1710 armor. Working with the more-or-less proven Mitigation Formula from U11, we can calculate the exact damage reduction. 1 / (1 + (Armor / 300)) -> 1 / (1 + (1710 / 300)) = 1 / (1 + 5.7) = 1 / 6.7 = .1493 or 14.93%. This means for every point of damage that Snow Globe takes, it only takes .1493 damage. To put this into perspective, let's assume a Grineer Bombard's rocket deals 300 damage. 300 x .1493 = 44.79 which is rounded to 45 damage. Due to the revision of Armor in the aftermath of U11, Armor effectively lacks the diminishing returns that it used to and has become a viable stat to consider. At the maximum health that my build can achieve at this time, Snow Globe could handle 154 Rockets against this theoretical Bombard assuming it absorbed 0 damage during its 4 seconds Absorption Phase.

 

If you have formulas to disprove my math, I welcome it as it will help me to grow as a Frost User. That being said, utilizing only a single forma, I have suggested a far more viable build for Snow Globe. I do not believe such a build would work for every player, as their style of play is their own. It does, however, work for me and my friends in game with no issue and I encourage all players to find and develop builds that suit their style of play the best.

 

I offered my build as a guide to help a fellow Frost user grow as a player, not to validate my experience. The best advice I can offer all Frost users is not to ignore all your potential benefits. Also, be careful not to Overstack on Power Efficiency. A lot of players don't see the benefit in keeping a Rank 2 Streamline around for their Efficiency builds, but saving yourself the extra mod points really makes a difference. It is not always worthwhile to maximize this potential either, as even 60% is potent enough to sustain you in the long run. If you need more information, you're welcome to check out my WIP Project regarding the various frames along with their benefits, weaknesses, and overall balance in the all aspects of the game. You can find the link here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/205347-discussion-wip-frame-balance-and-build-suggestions/#entry2398828

Edited by Ruriko
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As for Armor, I trust you realize that Snow Globe's armor is equal to 5 times that of Frost's armor.

 

Snow Globe does not have armor.

 

Edit: Or at least I've never seen anyone claim it does through testing, and the testing done back when they first implemented health and even armor scaling to health never indicated it does.

 

SG gains 5x of Frost's armor AS HEALTH. So you gain an additional 1995 health from armor with SF, 950 health from armor without.

Edited by Darzk
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Then I stand corrected in that regard. I am mistaken about how Armor affects health.

 

With that clarification, My build has 8675 Health base before absorption is taken into account.

 

Your correction of my incorrect assumption has given me room for pause, as now I am curious if Armor or Power Strength is taken into account first. If Armor is considered first, then even this number is flawed. Working with the stats from my build: 3500 Base + 1710 from armor = 5210 Health. 5210 x .99 = 5157.9 which would be rounded to 5158 in game. 5210 + 5158 = 10368. The 8675 would only be true if Power Strength is applied first. Unfortunately, I do not have the means to test this in game.

 

Thank you for the food for thought.

Edited by Ruriko
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Hi guys,

    Thanks for all your input. So, from what I have gathered so far, Blind Rage is better than Steel Fiber as it adds more to snow globe's health?

Should I go R5 Blind Rage or Maxed Blind Rage? Will maxed blind rage makes snow globe a bit too much to cast? Should I forma the aura to - for energy siphon if I go blind rage?

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Looking over the build you have offered, I find myself concerned that you are making the push for extra duration. As I have already stated, 30 seconds (or therebouts) is more than enough time on its own. Anything more than that, and you're losing the edge against higher level enemies. Anything less and you run into the gambit of needing to cast it more often which can result in energy issues. 

 

I actually agree. The globe generally breaks before expiry at high levels and expires before breaking at low levels, so duration is not as much of an issue. Hrm, may have to rethink this. Replacing NM with 30% from Constitution or Continuity will only give ~20 sec duration tho, which I think is too short at lower levels. Would work well at higher levels tho... http://goo.gl/vuzF03 ? The longer range on IW will certainly help.

 

Moreover, the loss of size on your Snow Globe is not a benefit. In many ways, it is actually hurting you. A larger snow globe means more protected area for yourself and your allies. It also means that it has a much larger area to be hit by enemies, making it much easier to maximize your Absorption Time. That being said, too much size is equally as bad as too little. The regular size has worked well for me. I may not be able to maximize the absorption phase, but I also don't run the risk of Rapid Burnout due to the massive size either (Or worse, enemies entering the globe en mass, thus virtually negating the benefit of absorbing and blocking damage). The only benefit I see to your build is the Slow Field.

 

Size is an issue of opinion. While I agree that too large or too small is an issue, I think either base size or -21% range works equally well for most purposes... while a larger globe works for better absorption during the 4 seconds and a larger area to play with, a smaller globe works better when you're precasting, as it takes less damage from undirected fire. In addition, moas in particular will run just inside a regular size globe, while remaining outside the -21% range globe. The slow field is unaffected by range, and I do like that the snare starts right before the globe.

 

Additionally, I find that builds are more fun when they are less hyper-focused on achieving a single goal. This gives me the flexibility to do things outside of being a One Trick Pony, as many players often do with various Frames (Such as Loki, Frost, and Nova). I strongly believe in being flexible with your builds so that you can adapt to various situations instead of relying on a single tactic for a frame. This may seem moot, as I am openly proposing an otherwise OTP build for Frost's Snow Globe. Rather than saying "Here's a build that is all about X with Snow Globe", I'm offering up an extremely balanced option that is more viable than someone who focuses on Duration or Power or Armor alone.

 

And yet the build you posted uses just SG and Avalanche? And the use of SF literally only boosts a single ability?

 

I really do prefer to do exactly what you dislike - focus on maximizing a single ability (or 2/3) to the detriment of the 4th, as very few frames have situations where all 4 abilities might be used to optimal effect. IW is mostly on the build because no other mods are needed, and it's fun, but I don't build for it.

 

 

However, I take issue with the claim that your build provides a stronger snow globe, as the following bit of math will prove.

 

I simply said it

still has more than 7k health.

, not that it had a stronger globe than yours. Underestimating your globe in your post may have made that seem implied, however.

 

 

Hi guys,

    Thanks for all your input. So, from what I have gathered so far, Blind Rage is better than Steel Fiber as it adds more to snow globe's health?

Should I go R5 Blind Rage or Maxed Blind Rage? Will maxed blind rage makes snow globe a bit too much to cast? Should I forma the aura to - for energy siphon if I go blind rage?

 

ES aura isn't needed, but is nice. Rejuv is still good to have because of the abundance of bleeds at higher levels. 

 

BR is only good because in addition to adding health to snowglobe, it increases damage done by other abilities. SF will add up to 1045 health to SG at max rank  - BR will add 315 health per point but also decrease efficiency.

 

 

Let's begin with Snow Globe's Health. At max rank, it has a base health value of 3500. Squall Helm + Intensify (Rank 5) + Blind Rage (Rank 5) = +99% Power Strength. 3500 + (3500 x .99) = 3500 + 3465 = 6965 Health. This is with the build I use. Using the build you linked, you have only +81% Power Strength due to your Rank 3 Blind Rage. 3500 + (3500 x .81) = 3500 + 2835 = 6335 Health. In this regard, my build has more base Health for Snow Globe by 630.

 

I've specifically tailored my power strength to get snowglobe at just under 25 energy per cast, to minimize the energy loss from Carrier. After casting the globe, carrier will bring you energy orbs - my build will only use up one, while upping blind rage those 2 ranks will make it absorb 2 energy orbs.

 

Is your 630 more health worth costing 2x as much energy? IMO I would go right to full BR with the same orb cost and ~2.2k more health.

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Hi guys,

    Thanks for all your input. So, from what I have gathered so far, Blind Rage is better than Steel Fiber as it adds more to snow globe's health?

Should I go R5 Blind Rage or Maxed Blind Rage? Will maxed blind rage makes snow globe a bit too much to cast? Should I forma the aura to - for energy siphon if I go blind rage?

 

I would strongly recommend using a Forma to change your Aura Polarity to Bar and use Energy Siphon if only because of how Frost is designed. He is effectively a Heavy Caster/Mage Tank. It is ultimately up to you to decide if you really want the extra 45% Power Strength. You will offset almost all the benefit of a max rank Fleeting Expertise to gain that power, coming up with 35% Power Efficiency if you are also using a Max Streamline. Assuming you are using both of these mods at rank 4, You'll only have 20% Power Efficiency.

 

3500 x 1.44 = 5040. This is the bonus provided by your Power Strength if you go this route.

190 x 5 = 950. This is the bonus provided by Frost's armor.

Final Strength: 3500 + 5040 + 950 = 9490 Health for 40 Energy.

Ratio of Power to Energy Cost: 237 to 1

 

Assuming you have 35% Efficiency from a max rank Streamline and Fleeting Expertise with a Max rank Blind Rage, your Ratio of Power to Energy Cost becomes 292 to 1.

 

Using the build provided by Darzk:

3500 x .81 = 2835.

190 x 5 = 950

Final Strength: 3500 + 2835 + 950 = 7285 health for 15 energy

Ratio of Power to Energy Cost: 486 to 1

 

Using the build I provided:

3500 x .99 = 3465

342 x 5 = 1710

Final Strength: 3500 + 3465 + 1710 = 8675 health for 20 Energy

Ratio of Power to Energy Cost: 434 to 1.

 

Based on these equations, I would argue that going with a maximum rank Blind Rage is actually a very bad idea. Even though I disagree with his design, I must admit that Darzk's build is the strongest one proposed thus far based on the power of his Snow Globe vs the Energy necessary to use the ability. With that said, the choice is ultimately yours, but I strongly advise against taking Blind Rage any higher than Rank 5.

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Size is an issue of opinion. While I agree that too large or too small is an issue, I think either base size or -21% range works equally well for most purposes... while a larger globe works for better absorption during the 4 seconds and a larger area to play with, a smaller globe works better when you're precasting, as it takes less damage from undirected fire. In addition, moas in particular will run just inside a regular size globe, while remaining outside the -21% range globe. The slow field is unaffected by range, and I do like that the snare starts right before the globe.

 

That's an excellent point and something else that I failed to consider. That is a tactical advantage in a Snow Globe of slightly smaller-than-normal size that I had not really considered. As for the Slow Field, I still think that the fact that the field doesn't shrink with the globe is an unintended bug. Otherwise, it is a very brilliant use of Snow Globe in a way I had not considered.

 

 

 

And yet the build you posted uses just SG and Avalanche? And the use of SF literally only boosts a single ability?

 

Much like how Size is more based in opinion than not, Armor also falls into this category. I openly admitted this is my take on the traditional and overly common "Snow Globe Only" build. Avalanche is my safeguard against the enemies that dare to enter my globe. Avalanche's footprint is roughly the same as Snow Globe's at regular size, allowing me to deal with the vast number of enemies that trespass within its protective walls. Given that Ice damage is basically the worst of the elements against anything that isn't a shield, alloy plate, or sinew flesh, this only provides a limited means of combat. The brief freeze time that follows, however, is usually enough to deal with them.

 

After my next Forma, it is my intention of adding Ice Wave as it is actually my favorite Frost ability and my attack of choice from his skill set. I do have a vacant Scratch Slot in my build that needs something and it sure won't be Freeze.

 

 

 

Is your 630 more health worth costing 2x as much energy? IMO I would go right to full BR with the same orb cost and ~2.2k more health.

 

Actually, your Snow Globes cost 15 energy, not 25. +60% (Fleeting Expertise, Rank 5), +30% (Streamline, Rank 5) make +90%. You are losing 20% from Rank 3 Blind Rage, giving you a total of 70% Efficiency. Snow Globe costs 50 Energy, which at a 70% reduction brings the cost to 15 energy per casting.

 

My build costs 20 Energy. +60% from Fleeting Expertise, +30% from Streamline, and -30% from Blind Rage Rank 5 gives me a total of 60% Efficiency, resulting in cost being 20 Energy per casting.

 

Revisiting the Health for a moment, if you look at my earlier post where I compared Your Build, My Build, and Friedricetheman's Build Post Max Blind Rage, you'll see that the difference in the health of our Snow Globes is actually more than 630. It is 1390. For 5 additional energy, I would argue that it is actually worthwhile to invest in Steel Fiber, Max Rank or Not. If my Steel Fiber was max Rank, assuming everything else remaining the same, It would provide an additional 285 Health. This would result in a Strength-To-Cost ratio of 448 to 1.

 

There is no way you could possibly maintain a 25 energy cost if you were to upgrade to a max rank Blind Rage. Frost simply does not have the capability of offsetting a -55% Efficiency through mods that are only capable of reaching +90%. At best, you'd be resigning yourself to 35% Energy Efficiency in exchange for that extra strength, which means 32.5 -> 33 Energy per casting. While you are gaining 2205 extra health, you're also dropping your Strength-To-Cost ratio to 292 to 1, a massive drop from your current 486 to 1.

 

 

You have given me quite a bit to reflect on. Thank you for correcting my misunderstandings. Also, I haven't figure out how to really make the Multi-quote work. My apologies for the fact that these quotes do not name you directly, Darzk.

Edited by Ruriko
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.... Ugh, major facepalm incoming.

 

So yeah, I was using WFBuilder to fiddle with the energy efficiency to make a 25 energy snowglobe. Unfortunately, WFBuilder incorrectly shows SG as having a 75 energy cost, and I raaaan with that without double checking. My bad.

 

After this discussion, I've revised my high level def builds.

 

I think I'm gonna start using http://goo.gl/3TnLH6 for the strongest possible globe @ 25 energy (this time for real!) or http://goo.gl/61C6nv for better survivability.

 

I'll keep the 40 second globe for lower level stuff tho, cast+roam is more fun/beneficial/possible then.

 

While in general more efficiency is better than more damage, this holds true only for abilities that cannot be spammed. SG falls under both categories, both in that it can be refreshed once destroyed and yet can't be (*shouldn't be) stacked for higher damage reduction with multiple casts. 

 

So with the argument that a stronger globe is more important than an efficient one, because the pod/teammates are vulnerable when its down, Blind Rage isnt a bad option. However when looking for maximum energy efficiency, BR rank 2 is ideal

 

+72% PS (30 Intensify +27 BR +15 Squall) +75% Efficiency (+60%FE+30%Str-15% BR) and +110% armor from SF gives 8015 absorption for 12.5 energy, or 641.2 damage/energy.

 

A lower cost on SG, irrelevant of the power strength gain/loss, will also give higher damage absorbed / energy due to a higher % uptime of the absorbing/invuln period...

 

If I didn't use Carrier I would definitely go for 75% efficiency using only BR Rank 2. Because I do, I'll be aiming for 50% efficiency.

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.... Ugh, major facepalm incoming.

 

So yeah, I was using WFBuilder to fiddle with the energy efficiency to make a 25 energy snowglobe. Unfortunately, WFBuilder incorrectly shows SG as having a 75 energy cost, and I raaaan with that without double checking. My bad.

 

After this discussion, I've revised my high level def builds.

 

I think I'm gonna start using http://goo.gl/3TnLH6 for the strongest possible globe @ 25 energy (this time for real!) or http://goo.gl/61C6nv for better survivability.

 

I'll keep the 40 second globe for lower level stuff tho, cast+roam is more fun/beneficial/possible then.

 

While in general more efficiency is better than more damage, this holds true only for abilities that cannot be spammed. SG falls under both categories, both in that it can be refreshed once destroyed and yet can't be (*shouldn't be) stacked for higher damage reduction with multiple casts. 

 

So with the argument that a stronger globe is more important than an efficient one, because the pod/teammates are vulnerable when its down, Blind Rage isnt a bad option. However when looking for maximum energy efficiency, BR rank 2 is ideal

 

+72% PS (30 Intensify +27 BR +15 Squall) +75% Efficiency (+60%FE+30%Str-15% BR) and +110% armor from SF gives 8015 absorption for 12.5 energy, or 641.2 damage/energy.

 

A lower cost on SG, irrelevant of the power strength gain/loss, will also give higher damage absorbed / energy due to a higher % uptime of the absorbing/invuln period...

 

If I didn't use Carrier I would definitely go for 75% efficiency using only BR Rank 2. Because I do, I'll be aiming for 50% efficiency.

 

+117% Power Strength, +30% Duration, +50% Efficiency, and +110% Armor.

 

3500 x 1.17 = 4095

399 x 5 = 1995

Final Strength: 3500 + 4095 + 1995 = 9590 Health for 25 Energy.

Strength-To-Cost Ratio: 384 to 1

 

I find this build to be extremely respectable. It is an excellent middle ground between our builds, combining a high health pool with low energy consumption. I honestly feel that by focusing in on the 25 Energy cost, you have actually found a very flexible build that is useful at all level ranges. Your other proposed idea would be fun to play around with for low level defense missions, but aside from independent survival, I don't really see how it could outdo the former concept. Generally, anything that isn't a danger to your snow globe isn't going to be a danger to Frost. This build also provides more health than a maxed blind rage, by a minor amount without nearly the penalty (+100HP at 15 fewer energy)

Edited by Ruriko
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It really depends on how long you want to run on defense. If you're trying to go for true end game where enemies do so much damage they one shot everything, then the above builds are useless. No amount of increased strength or duration will matter because the enemies will rip through those globes instantly. The only factor that matters is the 4 second immunity, which is not affected by duration mods. I know that some will be saying that it scales since it "absorbs" damage and then translates that to additional HP, but the problem is you never know how many enemies will be shooting the globe at any one time. Could be 4 then 8 after the immunity period. So the only real way to play frost now is to cast globe every ~3 seconds to be safe. I have tested this myself and have had good success on two different grineer maps.

 

As for the size of the globe it depends on the faction you're fighting as well as the map you're playing.

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