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Einde's Ai Feedback And Ideas.


LascarCapable
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This is an important topic. A good AI is determinating for a pleasent enemy to fight. If Warframe's IA doesn't seems to be that bad, it really could use a bunch of improvements.

 

I'll just make a personnal list of some good improvements that could make ennemies much more pleasent to fight.

 

Infestation problems : this faction is atm just a terrible joke. Just stepping high is enough to prevent them to harm you. Infested chargers should be granded a spitting attack, used only if players are out of reach with conventionnal methods. Ancients should be granted a bomb throwing attack similar to J3-Golem (without the poison proc) for these situations too.

 

Invisibility gestion : Bots have an inexistant gestion of invisible players. Atm, invisible players can just do what they want and taking almost zero risks. It's perfectly true in solo plays, and I guess that's making the game a bit boring for those who would like true stealth or something. I think making the job for invisibility lovers a bit harder, but funnier would be a great idea :

 

For exemple, human enemies may act like that :

- When a player turns invisibile in front of an enemy, depending of it's type (a simple grineer lancer won't react the same way than an elite lancer), they will either nod dumbly or try to shoot more or less precisely everywhere in hope to harm you.

- Making sound while an enemy is aware of you (but you're still invisible) will make that enemy shoot at where the sound is coming (quite like if they were blinded by radial disarm, but only for you).

- If an enemy is killed or harmed, "skilled" enemy types will shoot where's the shot is coming from if you used a gun, or where's the enemy died if you used a melee weapon. Enemies harmed at short range may try to fight back in close combat where the blow were given.

 

About robotic enemies :

- If the alarm is not set, Rollers, MOAs, drones, and Oxium Ospreys will just act the way they act at this time : dumb.

- If the alarm is set... YOUR INVISIBILITY WILL BE BYPASSED BY ALL MOAs ENTITIES due to "satellite location" or something like that (same goes for Rollers, drones and Oxium Ospreys)... But robots will tend to be much more imprecise.

- Leech Ospreys and Mine Ospreys won't try to lay eggs on you if you're invisible, alarm set or not.

- Latchers WILL target you, invisible or not. Beware if there's a seeker in the room.

 

About infestation :

- I think they would be able to track you with their smell or something... To they will more or less try to get towards you and attack you with poorly aimed attacks.

 

Keep in mind that as long as you are not killing things in front of another enemy or making too much noise, enemies will act the way they act at this time if you're invisible.

 

I would suggest another change : the following procs should reveal invisible players to enemies :

- Bleed.

- Fire.

- Electric.

 

And last thing about that invisibility gestion : some enemies (besides latchers) should be able to track down invisible players, making them your number one target : for these enemies only, invisible players will be their top target priority. I'd suggest to give Ballistas the ability to see invisible players, and creating ospreys able to reveal invisible players with some weak electric procs attacks.

 

The lemming syndrome : that's fun to see how enemies are walking towards their death. You can notice it in particular with Vauban's skills. But that would be more entertaining if enemies were a bit more intelligent, just enough to make them able to avoid environnemental hazards.

 

- Some tenno skills will be treated as "visible" : human and infested enemies wil try to avoid it as much as possible, and may be even scared by it. Robots will ignore that : they're just brainless robots (exceptions may occur). That could be the case for Ember's Fireblast, for exemple.

- Some other skills wil be treated as "noticeable" :  enemies will avoid it only if it's visible that one of them has fell in it. That could be the case for Vauban's Bastille.

- The rest of "staying" skills will be "unnoticeable" skills. Enemies will always fall in it. That could be the case for Vauban's Tesla.

 

Of course, if you're located in a noticed or visible harmful zone, infested will try to spit at you, as described in the first issue.

 

...But there's still a problem about that system : it can make a bunch of abilities useless. So it would need some tweaks.

 

That all I have to give for now.

 

I know that's a lot of changings, and much of them looks like indirect and/or undeserved nerfs, but think that powers may be changed to work better, and that AI modfications seems to be a really good start for a stealth 2.0 mechanic.

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I'd love to see advanced AI in the game, with enemies working together rather than firing a wave of bullets down a hallway. The only problem is that AI is pretty hard to code, in any game, really. It could be some time before it ever gets added. At the same time, though, it could probably make it so there wouldn't have to be a wave of inbred enemies, and instead you could have a group of 10 soldiers competently closing in on your squad.

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Fighting back against invisible targets seems pretty cool, it'd make Loki allot more interesting (when you ran into a guy you couldn't 1-shot) you'd best off constantly be moving in between attacks, which is entertaining.

Anyways these sort of mild tweaks to AI, are nifty, but the game could use deeper? changes atm. 

 

Like making content more interesting to play through, right now missions tend to get pretty repetitive and are plagued by overgeared hero's.

Fixing that would do the game soooo much good.

 

Like if you get unlucky you could not end up not killing an enemy until the 4~th mission which is a downright TERRIBLE start to any game (debate-ably worse than even League of Legends).

Right now missions tend to get a lil repetitive, allot of people are getting burned out of the game since missions always tend to be the same thing... over... and over again.

 

Tweaks to NPCs/AI could fix that, but not quite like what you're suggesting.

It'd also involve a bit of tweaking NPC abilities to create changes of pace in fights.  Right now you can just spam your maximized aoe or melee attack or main weapon and that's it (at least most of the time)... NPCs should get people to switch it up in fights more, they should be pushing for notable differences in how you act to take them down, that or push for more teamwork to take them down (covering fire or taking out important targets first or setting up barriers for an ally, exc,)

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good idea, but invis will not be useful in higher levels, and loki has low stats: he will be killed very fast in higher levels, you should maybe rework a bit your idea ( particulary for the moas, their echolocalization works on invis ? )

Note that I'm not for a perma invis loki

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Infestation: They're just pathetic slow, just running with a rhino and you'll get so far in front of them.

 

Corpus/Grineer/Corrupted: The AI is just pathetic, they stop all the time taking cover. They need to be AGGRESSIVE, such as rushing towards the player and shoot at the same time. They should be as fast as the infested above.

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Oh snaps ! Sorry guys, I totally missed your posts. D:

 

 

I like this idea. Unfortunately, a lot of frame's abilities depend on the idiocy of the current AI for them to be really viable.

 

That's the main problem for aera and duration based power such as Vortex or Hallowed Ground.  That's why we won't be able to fix the "Lemming" problem IMO.

 

 

good idea, but invis will not be useful in higher levels, and loki has low stats: he will be killed very fast in higher levels, you should maybe rework a bit your idea ( particulary for the moas, their echolocalization works on invis ? )

Note that I'm not for a perma invis loki

 

That's why I suggested a stat buff for Loki, just in case.

 

 

 

I'd love to see advanced AI in the game, with enemies working together rather than firing a wave of bullets down a hallway. The only problem is that AI is pretty hard to code, in any game, really. It could be some time before it ever gets added. At the same time, though, it could probably make it so there wouldn't have to be a wave of inbred enemies, and instead you could have a group of 10 soldiers competently closing in on your squad.

 

That's a nice idea. Seeing enemies really cooperating would be just awesome. We just have to find the most efficient way for them.

 

Fighting back against invisible targets seems pretty cool, it'd make Loki allot more interesting (when you ran into a guy you couldn't 1-shot) you'd best off constantly be moving in between attacks, which is entertaining.

Anyways these sort of mild tweaks to AI, are nifty, but the game could use deeper? changes atm. 

 

Like making content more interesting to play through, right now missions tend to get pretty repetitive and are plagued by overgeared hero's.

Fixing that would do the game soooo much good.

 

Like if you get unlucky you could not end up not killing an enemy until the 4~th mission which is a downright TERRIBLE start to any game (debate-ably worse than even League of Legends).

Right now missions tend to get a lil repetitive, allot of people are getting burned out of the game since missions always tend to be the same thing... over... and over again.

 

Tweaks to NPCs/AI could fix that, but not quite like what you're suggesting.

It'd also involve a bit of tweaking NPC abilities to create changes of pace in fights.  Right now you can just spam your maximized aoe or melee attack or main weapon and that's it (at least most of the time)... NPCs should get people to switch it up in fights more, they should be pushing for notable differences in how you act to take them down, that or push for more teamwork to take them down (covering fire or taking out important targets first or setting up barriers for an ally, exc,)

 

Maybe making enemies adapt to your playstyle would be the best, but that woul be a pain in the butt to code. Anyway more differences beetween faction would be a really nice idea too. I shall start to write something about it.

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For the "new enemies " contest for infested. I suggested that chargers can be seen on first sight but will turn invisible after a few secs then they would charge you in a C shape (basically indirect approach). And then they would reappear just before they attack.

This really improves the concept of a sudden swarm and help infested chargers really have the chance to even attack you because they are usually killed while charging you. Just a suggestion so that The faction wouldnt be so easy to kill and i think chargers should have an armour buff beacause they do look like they have armour (atm is useless ) and they have the coined name "charge" like rhino's power (who quickly charges with high speed and goes in for the kill).

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Pas mal Einde, pas mal...

 

I think we should have a scaled A.I. ,becoming smarter & smarter the higher levelled enemies you encounter. They may stay as they are now on planets like Mercury or Venus, but oh man, prepare to meet a good resistance in Neptune and an Einstein-organized army in Pluto.... :)

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 Seeing as you have written alot, I'll just write into your post through the quotes.

 



This is an important topic. A good AI is determinating for a pleasent enemy to fight. If Warframe's IA doesn't seems to be that bad, it really could use a bunch of improvements.

 

I'll just make a personnal list of some good improvements that could make ennemies much more pleasent to fight.

 

Infestation problems : this faction is atm just a terrible joke. Just stepping high is enough to prevent them to harm you. Infested chargers should be granded a spitting attack, used only if players are out of reach with conventionnal methods. Ancients should be granted a bomb throwing attack similar to J3-Golem (without the poison proc) for these situations too.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At the moment, the problems with infested having trouble with players on a higher terrain/platform; just give them the ability to climb/scale the wall/terrain to reach you and attack you. The ranged abilities should only be for the more advanced infested units. Crawlers could probably have a disturbing animation for their climbing to reach you.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Invisibility gestion : Bots have an inexistant gestion of invisible players. Atm, invisible players can just do what they want and taking almost zero risks. It's perfectly true in solo plays, and I guess that's making the game a bit boring for those who would like true stealth or something. I think making the job for invisibility lovers a bit harder, but funnier would be a great idea :

 

For exemple, human enemies may act like that :

- When a player turns invisibile in front of an enemy, depending of it's type (a simple grineer lancer won't react the same way than an elite lancer), they will either nod dumbly or try to shoot more or less precisely everywhere in hope to harm you.

- Making sound while an enemy is aware of you (but you're still invisible) will make that enemy shoot at where the sound is coming (quite like if they were blinded by radial disarm, but only for you).

- If an enemy is killed or harmed, "skilled" enemy types will shoot where's the shot is coming from if you used a gun, or where's the enemy died if you used a melee weapon. Enemies harmed at short range may try to fight back in close combat where the blow were given.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, I think for invisibility; it's basically like an optic camouflage. Here's the thing, when you move, enemies should get "curious" as to what that weird blur movement was and go to investigate. As you said, the enemies appear deaf if they weren't alerted to your presence once you turn invisible, and it's almost funny. 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

About robotic enemies :

- If the alarm is not set, Rollers, MOAs, drones, and Oxium Ospreys will just act the way they act at this time : dumb.

- If the alarm is set... YOUR INVISIBILITY WILL BE BYPASSED BY ALL MOAs ENTITIES due to "satellite location" or something like that (same goes for Rollers, drones and Oxium Ospreys)... But robots will tend to be much more imprecise.

- Leech Ospreys and Mine Ospreys won't try to lay eggs on you if you're invisible, alarm set or not.

- Latchers WILL target you, invisible or not. Beware if there's a seeker in the room.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think robotics should be smarter in spotting you. Unless they have a set vision, but once the normal enemies have spotted you, they switch to a heat seeking vision or some sort to lock onto your signature. OR just have them do scans a couple meters in front of them on their patrols.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

About infestation :

- I think they would be able to track you with their smell or something... To they will more or less try to get towards you and attack you with poorly aimed attacks.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Infested units should be able to "sense" your presence in some way, either by smell or some other mutation of their senses. They should be harder to fool. More like if you get within a certain radius of them, they detect you no matter what. Like once you're invisible they become near-sighted in a sense, and once you come into a certain range of them, they'll detect you even if you're invisible.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Keep in mind that as long as you are not killing things in front of another enemy or making too much noise, enemies will act the way they act at this time if you're invisible.

 

I would suggest another change : the following procs should reveal invisible players to enemies :

- Bleed.

- Fire.

- Electric.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You should also put in cold effects (if there is any) or possible gas. I say gas type because toxin and viral, is something that happens within the body. The gas type damage is gas/smoke. You can visually see it. Corrosive too, since I'm talking about it, since it's an active corrosive acid on the armor or skin. Radiation/Magnetic you won't really see. It's more a warped vision thing (when in high concentration).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And last thing about that invisibility gestion : some enemies (besides latchers) should be able to track down invisible players, making them your number one target : for these enemies only, invisible players will be their top target priority. I'd suggest to give Ballistas the ability to see invisible players, and creating ospreys able to reveal invisible players with some weak electric procs attacks.

 

The lemming syndrome : that's fun to see how enemies are walking towards their death. You can notice it in particular with Vauban's skills. But that would be more entertaining if enemies were a bit more intelligent, just enough to make them able to avoid environnemental hazards.

 

- Some tenno skills will be treated as "visible" : human and infested enemies wil try to avoid it as much as possible, and may be even scared by it. Robots will ignore that : they're just brainless robots (exceptions may occur). That could be the case for Ember's Fireblast, for exemple.

- Some other skills wil be treated as "noticeable" :  enemies will avoid it only if it's visible that one of them has fell in it. That could be the case for Vauban's Bastille.

- The rest of "staying" skills will be "unnoticeable" skills. Enemies will always fall in it. That could be the case for Vauban's Tesla.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alright for some of these visible skills, like fire, ice and electrical, I understand. Bastille for all you know, can be invisible but it's only visible to the Tenno (Mainly Vauban who deployed it). They can probably see the floating ball/object but they won't know it's range, until they see their own getting lifted.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Of course, if you're located in a noticed or visible harmful zone, infested will try to spit at you, as described in the first issue.

 

...But there's still a problem about that system : it can make a bunch of abilities useless. So it would need some tweaks.

 

That all I have to give for now.

 

I know that's a lot of changings, and much of them looks like indirect and/or undeserved nerfs, but think that powers may be changed to work better, and that AI modfications seems to be a really good start for a stealth 2.0 mechanic.

 

In general, I like your ideas. Here's a few things I might want to say or add more, that wasn't mentioned. The regular units should basically be your typical grunt. Not that smart. The leader units are the ones that make them smarter. Once you kill the leader unit, it should in a sense, demoralize them and cause a certain level of panic in them. Like they'll have their normal stats, once leader arrives, they gain a slight buff. Once the leader is killed that multipier from the buff becomes in a sense a timed debuff. I say timed because it doesn't really take that long for them to get over the fact that their leader unit died.

 

When enemies should have a limited field of view. This means that even if they are alerted, and they field of view increases, it should not increase their view to the point where they have eye son the back of their heads. When an enemy is taking cover, you should be able to flank them and take them out by "surprise" in a sense. You should even be able to stealth "kill" them if they are busy taking cover and are busy focused on another player. I know that AI units have targetted all of us, but they should have prioritized which of us to go after. Each single unit may pick their own targets, but it's weird that they have visual lock on all of us at once. While they're in cover, they shouldn't be able to detect where we are. They should do a quick peek out to see where we are.

 

Although I can tell with the limited manpower DE has, they might not be able to implement this much improvement into the game.

 

The concept of stealth play is as someone has said, should be a viable option, not a mandatory option. Some like to go in and rambo the whole place up, and some like to play stealth.

Stealth involves alot of AI programming and some environmental/map terrain issues. I can understand this taking a while, but I'm just surprised that the only improvement to stealth play is resetting the alarms. There's nothing more. There's no timer on their AI programming for them to get from high to low alert, to regular/normal patrol status.

Edited by VoidWraith
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At the moment, the problems with infested having trouble with players on a higher terrain/platform; just give them the ability to climb/scale the wall/terrain to reach you and attack you. The ranged abilities should only be for the more advanced infested units. Crawlers could probably have a disturbing animation for their climbing to reach you.

 

Excellent idea here, and fitting really well. Spitting attacks could solve other issues, but the idea of infested crawling on wall looks just much more better. I think that with the new "create an infested" thread, we will have a spitting infested anyway though.

 

 

 Seeing as you have written alot, I'll just write into your post through the quotes.

 

 

In general, I like your ideas. Here's a few things I might want to say or add more, that wasn't mentioned. The regular units should basically be your typical grunt. Not that smart. The leader units are the ones that make them smarter. Once you kill the leader unit, it should in a sense, demoralize them and cause a certain level of panic in them. Like they'll have their normal stats, once leader arrives, they gain a slight buff. Once the leader is killed that multipier from the buff becomes in a sense a timed debuff. I say timed because it doesn't really take that long for them to get over the fact that their leader unit died.

 

When enemies should have a limited field of view. This means that even if they are alerted, and they field of view increases, it should not increase their view to the point where they have eye son the back of their heads. When an enemy is taking cover, you should be able to flank them and take them out by "surprise" in a sense. You should even be able to stealth "kill" them if they are busy taking cover and are busy focused on another player. I know that AI units have targetted all of us, but they should have prioritized which of us to go after. Each single unit may pick their own targets, but it's weird that they have visual lock on all of us at once. While they're in cover, they shouldn't be able to detect where we are. They should do a quick peek out to see where we are.

 

These are good ideas too. Can I add them to the main post ?

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Excellent idea here, and fitting really well. Spitting attacks could solve other issues, but the idea of infested crawling on wall looks just much more better. I think that with the new "create an infested" thread, we will have a spitting infested anyway though.

 

 

 

These are good ideas too. Can I add them to the main post ?

 

Sure. I don't contribute ideas myself, but rather give feedbacks or suggestions. I'm weird like that.

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