@steve: Let's Talk More About That Ds Pvp Gametype You Mentioned

[Dogoframe]

Poor writing? It may not be superb but its far from poor. I do fine to be on mobile. Also, your grammar isnt superb itself.

Tell me more about my attitude... Too many of you geezers and kids are too rash in judgement. Taking obvious joke posts too serious... I love being a young male =D

I was playing back, nothing wrong about your writing. Just some forum PvP, hopefully no harm done. Teaches me to be more of an @ss and less of a joker ><

 

To OP: Alright, so whoever offers weak support for No-PvP is a sheep. How about the ones who offer weak support FOR PvP, what are they called? You know, the folks who come to any PvP thread and while ignoring any possible improvements to Conclave suggest new game systems, time and resource consuming ideas, because of the PvP tag? And usually by suggesting DE copies another game, in this case, Dark Souls?

 

But fear not, I am 110% pro PvP these days. Especially because I dont ever plan to do it in Warframe.

[avinity8]

I just want to hurt ppl :(

Hawkens is likely shutting down in a few months at its current rate and was my pvp fix :/

Hopefully DE lets us bleed milk from each others skulls so some of us can sleep happily at night =D

[Dogoframe]

I just want to hurt ppl :(

Hawkens is likely shutting down in a few months at its current rate and was my pvp fix :/

Hopefully DE lets us bleed milk from each others skulls so some of us can sleep happily at night =D

Because I was a jerk with my poorly written joke, I am not being sarcastic or condescending at all here, swear.

 

Did you try Conclaves enough? I confess I haven't.

 

Do you think there is a way to improve Conclaves? If there isnt, why do you believe WF PvP would work better in other nodes?

 

Again, there is no sarcasm here (in the question, the post has some), I genuinely get curious about this but the jerk in me types faster. He is in another room now so I can be more civilized.

[avinity8]

Nah, conclave isnt balanced nearly enough. I have made suggestion of def/hp/shield buffs to help counter the high weapon dmg.

Though let me say again, I play/played Hawkens for my pvp fix. Which is due to my not being datisfied w/it here.

Too lazy to fix the typo on 'satisfied' a pain to edit on mobile for me...

[Phaenur]

Pretty sure by VS. it meant, two teams doing PvE competing directly against each other for some sort of score.

 

Some sort of ritualised Tenno warrior sport by which they decide conflicts and disputes without harming each other directly would be incredibly cool.

 

Oh, I would absolutely love this, and Steve's comments suggest this might be what's up for consideration.

 

The most basic model I can think of would be a simple race to complete some identical objective on separate but equal maps or else an endurance contest for Defense or Survival.  Theoretically there could be mechanisms by which teams could sabotage one another - trigger lockdowns, alert enemies, that sort of thing - but that might honestly be more savage than it needs to be (besides, I'd rather see that system implemented cooperatively in some sort of high-level content).

 

As for scoring...well, I'm actually picturing a Results screen from some Sonic the Hedgehog game or other - basic score (kills and endgame points reward), speed bonus (completed it faster/held out longer various margins), ring exploration bonus (brought home the most loot), and possibly stealth bonus and one-weapon-only bonuses on top of those.  It favors trying to win over making the other guy lose, while still permitting both faster and more methodical group playstyles.  The exact numbers would need a lot of hashing out, of course, but ideally there would be no "No Items Fox Only Final Destination" instinct.  Sure, there'd probably be a go-to stage or mission type for inter-clan or inter-alliance competitions, but if you wanted to kill every last thing and loot all the chests and lockers you could find, that would work just as well as blasting a hole through the middle of the ship and finishing your mission in less than two minutes or whatever the record is.  Whichever team played their style better would come out ahead, and that's that.

[Dogoframe]

So Conclave PvP doesnt really work because the frames dont have enough HP/Shield/Defense in relation to their weapons, when used against other Tenno.

 

Got that.

 

Again, serious question because if I talk about Conclaves without experience I am being an &amp;#&#33;:

 

If PvP is taken to Dark Sectors, WITHOUT changes to HP/Shield/Defense, what would be needed for it to work?

If Conclaves are to be improved upon, for example giving Frames a higher HP/Defense/Shield ONLY FOR CONCLAVE, would it be enough? Because I think giving frames more HP/Def/SHields in Dark Sectors means those can be used in a resource-gathering environment, while giving those buffs for Conclave ONLY means no player can take advantage of them while gathering resources/affinity.

 

Thanks for the reply also.

Edited April 24, 2014 by Dogoframe

[SolidSp33d]

So Conclave PvP doesnt really work because the frames dont have enough HP/Shield/Defense in relation to their weapons, when used against other Tenno.

 

Got that.

 

Again, serious question because if I talk about Conclaves without experience I am being an &amp;#&#33;:

 

If PvP is taken to Dark Sectors, WITHOUT changes to HP/Shield/Defense, what would be needed for it to work?

If Conclaves are to be improved upon, for example giving Frames a higher HP/Defense/Shield ONLY FOR CONCLAVE, would it be enough? Because I think giving frames more HP/Def/SHields in Dark Sectors means those can be used in a resource-gathering environment, while giving those buffs for Conclave ONLY means no player can take advantage of them while gathering resources/affinity.

 

Thanks for the reply also.

 

I've thought about increasing the health and defenses in PvP as well. It wouldn't be the perfect fix alone, but definitely a step in the right direction. This way you would still be able to do weapon builds and not just mop the floor with everything without a second thought. Thought I still raise my idea of restricting the weaponry available in this PvP Dark Sector mode. Conclaves as they are are already a lot of fun if you remove hit-scan weaponry from the equation, in my experience with friends. The increased health and loadouts like bows, tysis (example), and a melee weapon wouldn't be too crazy. It may seem pretty limited at first, but it's still a ton of fun. Plus being able to use any melee weapon (since there isn't really a problem with those in PvP besides reflection which can just be banned from this) would still over nice leeway.

[Dogoframe]

It sounds like some changes to the restricted environment of Conclaves would make for faster, easier to access and balance PvP, than introducing similar changes (more HP/Energy/Shields/etc, restricted weaponry and more) to Dark Sectors, where resources can be acquired, affinity gained, etc, doesnt it?

 

Also when you say "I've thought also about...", I never suggested that. That is avinity8's suggestion.

 

The question I have about the OP is:

 

Conclaves dont drop resources and are the PvP that is already in Warframe. Why change game mechanics in Dark Sectors to accomodate PvP before the foundation of PvP in Warframe, namely Conclaves, isnt finished?

 

Edit: Also if Dark Sectors are part of the engmae experience, isnt it weird to restrict weaponry at all since the game revolves around crafting and mastering weaponry?

Edited April 24, 2014 by Dogoframe

[avinity8]

It would be a 'temporary' fix til they take time out and actually balance it... Buffs are not a good idea for a perma fix. Just something I would imagine is faster/easier to implement for the time being.

Also a debuff for weapons like a dragon key.

[SolidSp33d]

It sounds like some changes to the restricted environment of Conclaves would make for faster, easier to access and balance PvP, than introducing similar changes (more HP/Energy/Shields/etc, restricted weaponry and more) to Dark Sectors, where resources can be acquired, affinity gained, etc, doesnt it?

 

Also when you say "I've thought also about...", I never suggested that. That is avinity8's suggestion.

 

 

I know, I was kind talking to both of you with that, as I'm just interjecting into the conversation.

 

 

The question I have about the OP is:

 

Conclaves dont drop resources and are the PvP that is already in Warframe. Why change game mechanics in Dark Sectors to accomodate PvP before the foundation of PvP in Warframe, namely Conclaves, isnt finished?

 

Edit: Also if Dark Sectors are part of the engmae experience, isnt it weird to restrict weaponry at all since the game revolves around crafting and mastering weaponry?

 

The idea isn't to change any mechanics in Dark Sectors. As Steve mentioned, he's working on a new gametype. A different part of Dark Sectors you can choose to access. My post reflects that. It isn't changing any mechanics, only adding them.

 

It wouldn't really be a permanent thing, just to keep things stable until time can be allotted to actually work on over balance. But even then there is still a lot to work with even with those restrictions. The pool of weapons allowed would still be continuously growing. Also I think it still makes some sense in bouts of honor to prove yourself with more fair weaponry, if you will.

[tmtke]

I think PvP can be balanced easily.

1. Create a specific PvP warframe and PvP weapon set

2. OR - All warframes/weapons getting a special PvP version

3. Indicate these with skins

4. Lorewise these modifications are for contest only, tenno can't kill another tenno, just the special suit disables the user

Now you have PvP without ruining the ninja masterrace saviour of universe image.

[ensignvidiot]

OP: No sheep, please.

Sheep: You called?

 

...

 

Not that your ideas are in any way bad. Dark Souls definitely had a great multiplayer system that integrated well into its ongoing experience, but I don't think this is the place for something like that. 

 

 

My issue is with what little lore we have to support this to make sense, and the lore they are making up on the spot to have this make sense.

 

PvP in darksouls was 100% backed by all ingame story elements. Yes, as people have stated, this will cause:

 

HAHA L0L, I PWNZORED YOU AND **** DID **** WITH YOUR MOM.

 

D0 Y0U 3V3N TENN0!? I AM THE RECKONING OF YOUR MOM's ****

 

and so on.

That will kill the community.

 

Caustic Playerbase is what makes a lot of people not want to play games in an online multiplayer enviroment (which is the only way Warframe Thrives).

 

Without a solid Rep system inplace (regardless of how flawed or how badly it can be abused) Warframe can devolve into a CoD Online shamefest. That will lose players (myself included, i hate gaming with kids that don't know how to swear) and utterly destroy this game.

 

THAT is the reason why i am a "PvP GTFO!" Sheep. I'm worried that such a mechanic can kill the game.

[SolidSp33d]

My issue is with what little lore we have to support this to make sense, and the lore they are making up on the spot to have this make sense.

 

PvP in darksouls was 100% backed by all ingame story elements. Yes, as people have stated, this will cause:

 

 

 

 

and so on.

That will kill the community.

 

Caustic Playerbase is what makes a lot of people not want to play games in an online multiplayer enviroment (which is the only way Warframe Thrives).

 

Without a solid Rep system inplace (regardless of how flawed or how badly it can be abused) Warframe can devolve into a CoD Online shamefest. That will lose players (myself included, i hate gaming with kids that don't know how to swear) and utterly destroy this game.

 

THAT is the reason why i am a "PvP GTFO!" Sheep. I'm worried that such a mechanic can kill the game.

 

I understand the fears, I do. Lemme PM you something, because honestly the comments about fear of PvP itself are pretty derailing, and these types of threads suffer enough from it.

[Monolake]

Just look at the conclave forums and let the reality sink in: several magnitudes less posts and topics. Warframe players don't want PvP and dont care about it.

[Dogoframe]

 

It wouldn't really be a permanent thing, just to keep things stable until time can be allotted to actually work on over balance. But even then there is still a lot to work with even with those restrictions. The pool of weapons allowed would still be continuously growing. Also I think it still makes some sense in bouts of honor to prove yourself with more fair weaponry, if you will.

 

Again, why in the Dark Sectors? Why testing, adding, working in PvP AT ALL anywhere that is not Conclaves? It is already PvP, already optional, already out of progression, already not rewarding players with items.

 

Why create restrictions to the core PvE gameplay outside of Conclaves? Why bring PvP with weaponry restrictions in what can be taken as a PvE game's endgame?

[SolidSp33d]

Again, why in the Dark Sectors? Why testing, adding, working in PvP AT ALL anywhere that is not Conclaves? It is already PvP, already optional, already out of progression, already not rewarding players with items.

 

Why create restrictions to the core PvE gameplay outside of Conclaves? Why bring PvP with weaponry restrictions in what can be taken as a PvE game's endgame?

 

Because Conclaves are an entirely different type of gametype? That's just straight up player V.S. player.

 

The point of adding PvP to the Dark Sectors is to make them more interesting and challenging. To have a dynamic you don't get elsewhere. It would basically be true PvEvP, which you should get a grasp of from reading my post and a few of my responses about it.

 

And I've already said this a few times (am I not being clear?) there are no restrictions to core PvE gameplay in this mode. In fact one of my responses to Ensign are gave an idea to add more PvE stuff with this system in a PvE version. You're misconstruing the concepts presented here.

Edited April 24, 2014 by SolidSp33d

[SolidSp33d]

Just look at the conclave forums and let the reality sink in: several magnitudes less posts and topics. Warframe players don't want PvP and dont care about it.

 

The generalizations really kill me. They do.

 

Can we please take about the topic, or not at all. Thanks.

PM people if you're yearning to emphasize and argue such claims.

[ensignvidiot]

Just look at the conclave forums and let the reality sink in: several magnitudes less posts and topics. Warframe players don't want PvP and dont care about it.

 

No. I want PvP that is meaningful, rewarding, ties in lore, and is seperate but equal to PvE.

 

Like Dark Age of Camelot, or ESO (which uses DAoC's mechanics). You are rewarded for doing it, and you can gain huge rewards for doing it. But you can get the same rewards for just exploring and questing in PvE content in those games (ESO directly rewards the latter with SkillPoints)

And i want DOTA 2's reputation system. After ever game i can praise or discommedate someone i played with. So ill get matched more with people i like, and not have to deal with caustic games.

 

Lore and Rep, Rep and Lore, thats all *I* want for PvP. There is currently no point for me to DO conclaves, and my Dojo's dueling room only gets used when i want to auction off T3 Slots to lower level Clannies.

 

The Dark Sectors have the potential for that, I just hope DE can deliver it.

Hopefully this Stream Steve elaborates more on what he plans on doing with the Dark Sectors.

Edited April 24, 2014 by ensignvidiot

[Dogoframe]

Because Conclaves are an entirely different type of gametype? That's just straight up player V.S. player.

 

The point of adding PvP to the Dark Sectors is to make them more interesting and challenging. To have a dynamic you don't get elsewhere. It would basically be true PvEvP, which you should get a grasp of from reading my post and a few of my responses about it.

 

And I've already said this a few times (am I not being clear?) there are no restrictions to core PvE gameplay in this mode. In fact one of my responses to Ensign are gave an idea to add more PvE stuff with this system in a PvE version. You're misconstruing the concepts presented here.

 

You are clear. It just doesnt make sense to me. How can one restrict weapons in Dark Sectors, where there is affinity and resources to be gotten, and not place restrictions in PvE?

 

It is also clear that, like so many PvP threads, improving PvP as it is in Warframe NOW is out of the question. Conclaves dont work and instead of trying to get Warframe to have an enjoyable, fun and intense PvP THERE, you want it elsewhere. Pretty clear.

 

Please DE just do it. Just give PvPers a lot of PvP. Dont work too hard on it, just enable Dark Souls Mode and let them have at it.

[SolidSp33d]

You are clear. It just doesnt make sense to me. How can one restrict weapons in Dark Sectors, where there is affinity and resources to be gotten, and not place restrictions in PvE?

 

It is also clear that, like so many PvP threads, improving PvP as it is in Warframe NOW is out of the question. Conclaves dont work and instead of trying to get Warframe to have an enjoyable, fun and intense PvP THERE, you want it elsewhere. Pretty clear.

 

Please DE just do it. Just give PvPers a lot of PvP. Dont work too hard on it, just enable Dark Souls Mode and let them have at it.

 

We are talking about this being a gamemode for conflicts, not regular dark sectors.

And a gamemode were, if you choose the PvP section, you get the PvP restrictions.

Edited April 24, 2014 by SolidSp33d

[Monolake]

The generalizations really kill me. They do.

 

Can we please take about the topic, or not at all. Thanks.

PM people if you're yearning to emphasize and argue such claims.

Its not a generalisation, it extrapolation based on activity. 

The topic is "hello Steve, could you focus development on something that 90% of players don't want or don't care about, aka PvP". 

Im not to stop any one from discussing it, you just have to realise: either they make another half-effort a-la conclaves which no one will be happy with, or they have to put huge effort into it at the expense of developing the content that most Warframe players care about and want to play.

Not to say that you are asking for something that would hurt the game overall in the eyes of majority of its playerbase, but not an improvement either. The game needs more interesting cooperation-encouraging PvE missions instead.

[ensignvidiot]

 "hello Steve, could you focus development on something that 90% of players don't want or don't care about, aka PvP". 

 

98% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

100% of all Warframe players... play Warframe

 

Conclaves are a part of Warframe

Dark Sector is a part of Warframe

 

is it too much to ask that both get fleshed out better?

And in such a manner that it doesnt hurt the rest of the game?

[DiabolusUrsus]

Thanks for actually giving some feedback on the topic. (It sucks not having mods here as often as in GD to keep a thread on rails)

Yeah, the whole connection thing is an issue, but didn't Dark Souls 1 have a lot of that two? I remember hearing that Dark Souls didn't have dedicated servers. Didn't the series just get that with Dark Souls 2? It had it's problems with connections, but worked well enough from what I noticed. It wouldn't be any different than the host migration shenanigans we have in regular missions I'd imagine.

 

I'm looking more at the gameplay mechanics/philosophy with this one. There are always technical kinks to work out, which I don't think would be TOO much trouble here.

 

I'm not entirely sure about DS1 and whether or not it had dedicated servers, but I know that it didn't have a load-screen every time someone disconnected. People could hop in and drop out without disrupting the flow of the game. Whether that comes down to net code optimization or simply the amount of data that needs to be shared is beyond me. 

From what I take of your suggestion, though, people would join the game when ready to fight, and leave the game when they lose, or when they defeat the player. Warframe allows people to join sessions smoothly enough, but disconnecting is an entirely different animal. 

 

Lastly, this suggestion you've got going here is essentially a glorified Conclave match with a set of protocols for joining. From my experiences, the Conclaves would make a terrible addition to the PVP front of Warframe. It's not fun to watch yourself  get knocked down and head-shot while on the ground. There are other ways of implementing PVP that don't involve Tenno v Tenno, and I think those are a little more deserving of consideration. 

Good luck with keeping this particular train on its tracks. 

[Monolake]

98% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

100% of all Warframe players... play Warframe

 

Conclaves are a part of Warframe

Dark Sector is a part of Warframe

 

is it too much to ask that both get fleshed out better?

And in such a manner that it doesnt hurt the rest of the game?

In ideal world yes, in reality you have an opportunity cost and each man-hour spent on making PvP is an hour lost on developing the rest of the game. 

Im sure you have tried to play conclaves, the foundation is not there, OP's ideas would not work at the current state of the game any better. There has to be a major re-work and rebalance of everything for PvP to become enjoyable. Or a completely new game mode with pre-made stats and rules that differ from the rest of the game (because even the limits of conclave rating are not enough).  And its not worth it for the most players. 

[ensignvidiot]

opportunity cost and each man-hour spent on making PvP is an hour lost on developing the rest of the game

 

 

With the Lighting fiasco we all have seen that Steve/Scott will push any content they want into the game because they are leading DE_Warframe and they have that power.

 

Steve is pushing for more PvP for darksectors, so like it or not, he has already assigned people to work on that project and is already getting regular updates.

 

So like Damage 2.0, which came without warning, we could have a foundation-rattling change on our hands with Dark-Sectors.

 

They are now already working on PvP content, and it is on the horizon. So here is hoping the ending system is well thoughtout and will address balance issues in game. As it stands, you want to know what the deadliest thing in Conclave right now is? Reflection. I put it on ANY frame with stamina and i will render shooting useless and will kill anyone with their own weapon.

 

Right now, we dont know if Steve wants to keep PVP and PVE separate with DarkSectors, we can only wait for tomorrow when/if he talks about the changes.