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Lets Have A Rational Discussion About Trinity


LordMidnightX
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Ok I agree trinity needs a nerf, with castanas or penta she has perfect aim, she can't die and her team can't die. But she does make farming easier. without her it is hard to go on uber long survivals and such. I personally play her when I am helping out newbies. 

 

Now knowing DE's track record if they just slap a nerf on it, it is going to be ugly. It needs a real rework.

 

now currently healing in the game is too slow. By the time we need healed we are usually dead. When they nerf frost they were talking about how globe made the game boring. And now we are to where a good trinity makes the game boring. 

 

So I want this thread to try to find a solution to make her viable and not boring.

 

my suggestions are

 

change how link works to only reflect crowd control and statuses. this will make it so you will still be invincible but not have the super castana/penta trinity. this is the simple short solution.

 

or rework blessing 

 

Give it a range to promote teamwork and sticking together. Make it so it will give constant healing and 60% damage reduction and it will also cap the damage you can take at one time, if you lose more then half your health in 2 seconds you will be invincible for 5 seconds and this has a cooldown of 10 seconds. You will still be able to die and heal and it will be interesting I think.

 

one or both of these changes would be good, feel free to add input and criticize. lets fix trinity. 

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Blessing is the primary ability in her arsenal that needs adjusted. The corrupted series of mods in particular threw the balance of this ability way off, and its' now at the point where Trinity is entirely capable of keeping the entire team invincible. If they make a change to her other powers I would be surprised if it isnt' very minor or done in order to promote synergy with whatever Blessing is adjusted to do. 

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Unless they rework game mechanics like enemy damage infinite scaling, healing classes will be always obsolete.

 

Why bring an Oberon when you can easily slap on Life Steal on melee, use a healing item or many other options? Trinity is only useful cause of invincibility, Im all for taking that off for challenge, but they have to go back and rework a lot of things.

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Remove self-damage (yes i'm a proud user of it) from Link.

 

Nerf Blessing initial duration or not to be affected by duration mods.

 

Everything else (like 90% DR on Blessing) will be a "nerfed to the ground", so this is not going to work.

 

I doubt that Players "not nerfed to the ground" = Devs "not nerfed to the ground", i really doubt.

 

Good example of nerf: Vauban. 

Bad example of nerf: Frost.

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But she does make farming easier. without her it is hard to go on uber long survivals and such.

 

 

Makes farming easier? Of course it does if you're invincible. It's cheap. That's a point against it by showing all the easy mode stuff it promotes.

If you need invincibility to get there, you shouldn't be there in the first place.

 

Breaking parts of the game isn't worth being able to "help out newbies" without a care in the world. If you're helping out newbies you'll do just fine with any other frame. Saying invincibility is a plus because of that doesn't cut the butter.

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Makes farming easier? Of course it does if you're invincible. It's cheap. That's a point against it by showing all the easy mode stuff it promotes.

If you need invincibility to get there, you shouldn't be there in the first place.

 

Breaking parts of the game isn't worth being able to "help out newbies" without a care in the world. If you're helping out newbies you'll do just fine with any other frame. Saying invincibility is a plus because of that doesn't cut the butter.

Hey I am not saying it doesn't break the game but that it is Convenient I mean my t3 survival keys feel like a waste if I can't get a group that can go for more then 30 min. My trinity almost guarantees that they will. that is what I meant by making farming easier. As for helping newbs again this is something convenient, I don't have to bring trinity but it helps so I don't have to revive them.

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A possible solution is making it so that the Invincibility period is short (8-10 seconds at maximum) and unaffected by mods. The common complaint about Blessing needing invincibility is that it's "a life saver" or "necessary when enemies start to one-shot you".

 

Now in the case of the former it's justified since your teammates can get in a jam and need time to flee, or you need a few seconds of invincibility to push your way through a mob of Heavies. But really, why do you need 30 seconds of it? To escape a tight jam, reload your guns, recharge your energy, roflstomp everything with a face, make a cup of coffee, rolfstomp everything again, rinse and repeat? Blessing should be a lifesaver skill that has to be used at just the right time; it should give players just enough time to escape a bad situation or quickly deal with a few troublesome enemies, not allow you to casually tank level 300 enemies without getting scratched for 30+ seconds in a single cast.

 

As for the latter, if you're playing against enemies that can literally kill you with a single bullet, you probably shouldn't be playing that far into the game to begin with. If players aren't even meant to fight these high-level enemies, completely mitigating their attacks for extensive periods of time shouldn't be as easy as pressing the 4 key, they either shouldn't be doing it to begin with for have to employ a more strategic plan of attack.

Edited by Paradoxbomb
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Blessing invulnerability could be nerfed in duration to 2/3/4/5 seconds so that scaling duration mods wouldn't push it into total cheese territory like now.

 

It would be a completely reasonable nerf while not really changing the core identity of the power. If Blessing remains an issue, it could be reduced further to 1/2/3/4 or something. Having to constantly keep up energy and monitor cooldowns would separate good Trinity players who use Blessing selectively from AFK farmers.

 

Link could be changed to only redirect crowd control effects rather than damage. Maybe the damage resistance could be kept but I don't think it's necessary. Link stopping disables and Blessing giving a heal and brief invulnerability to damage (not crowd control) would better separate the identities of the two powers and take out the self-damage exploit entirely.

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or rework blessing 

 

Give it a range to promote teamwork and sticking together. Make it so it will give constant healing and 60% damage reduction and it will also cap the damage you can take at one time, if you lose more then half your health in 2 seconds you will be invincible for 5 seconds and this has a cooldown of 10 seconds. You will still be able to die and heal and it will be interesting I think.

 

one or both of these changes would be good, feel free to add input and criticize. lets fix trinity. 

 

I am acctualy thinking of giveing her a full team shiled similar to rhino's iron skin+the heal. It wouldnt be a insane nerf but it would keep the original idea.

Both of these are good ideas it would also be nice if blessing was able to revive fallen allies like Oberon's renewal used to do.

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What if you still took damage while under blessing, but couldn't be killed? In other words, your hp would fall to 5 but then would just remain there no matter how much damage you took.

 

That way, you could still use blessing to save people in a pinch, but couldn't use it to wade thoughtlessly into combat, because you would die from the first stray bullet when it wore off.

 

idk.

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On the subject of enemies being able to one shot you; enemies should not be able to one shot you. That doesn't mean that Trinity should be able to make everyone invincible either, but our personal defenses should actually mean something as well. 

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On the subject of enemies being able to one shot you; enemies should not be able to one shot you. That doesn't mean that Trinity should be able to make everyone invincible either, but our personal defenses should actually mean something as well. 

I agree, our health compared to enemy health is laughable. 

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Basically

 

We abused game mechanics long enough that once we cant we want something to make up for it

 

We were never meant to go that long in missions

 

If we cant do it anymore itll be more like what it should have been to start

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Basically

 

We abused game mechanics long enough that once we cant we want something to make up for it

 

We were never meant to go that long in missions

 

If we cant do it anymore itll be more like what it should have been to start

While I feel a bit melancholy about your post (because I find people going to very high-lvls impressive), that's true.

There's no creativity in simply scaling enemies.

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Basically

 

We abused game mechanics long enough that once we cant we want something to make up for it

 

We were never meant to go that long in missions

 

If we cant do it anymore itll be more like what it should have been to start

maybe maybe not, the thing is the AI needs a bigger rework then anything else. Right now warframe doesn't really have a large amount of skill. instead we have "do you have the right gear for this" obviously there is some skill aka movement and aiming and such, but no ammount of skill in warframe can compare to having good gear in warframe. 

 

We desire a challenge. but the current challenge is enemies that have huge amounts of health and do tons of damage that is very very hard to avoid. So the only counter to not being able to avoid it easily (or hiding behind cover a bunch) is to have trinity the way she is so we can go far. 

 

there are other ways to go far if you have the right team meant for it, but trinity just makes it easier to go far and to farm stuff. 

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Basically

We abused game mechanics long enough that once we cant we want something to make up for it

We were never meant to go that long in missions

If we cant do it anymore itll be more like what it should have been to start

I have to agree as well. It's kind of self-evident by the fact that only a small handful of frames are actually useful for this as well. But currently with the way those small handful of frames scale, once you get to a specific point, the way you play changes completely. You more or less completely stop using weapons because they're useless and simply use a small number of specific abilities. For defense, that can basically mean just standing at the pod, hitting a couple keys when you need to re-apply abilities. I don't think that's quite how this game was meant to be played.

Edited by DocHolliday13
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While I feel a bit melancholy about your post (because I find people going to very high-lvls impressive), that's true.

There's no creativity in simply scaling enemies.

I enjoy that most too

 

Trying to get out of the impossible hellholes you get yourself into

 

But when youre blessed its more of

 

How long can i CC lock these enemies and defend this thing  or how long can we survive on oxygen tanks after we cant kill and cant be killed

 

Its just no fun

 

maybe maybe not, the thing is the AI needs a bigger rework then anything else. Right now warframe doesn't really have a large amount of skill. instead we have "do you have the right gear for this" obviously there is some skill aka movement and aiming and such, but no ammount of skill in warframe can compare to having good gear in warframe. 

 

We desire a challenge. but the current challenge is enemies that have huge amounts of health and do tons of damage that is very very hard to avoid. So the only counter to not being able to avoid it easily (or hiding behind cover a bunch) is to have trinity the way she is so we can go far. 

 

there are other ways to go far if you have the right team meant for it, but trinity just makes it easier to go far and to farm stuff. 

Agreed...

 

Those new specters a a great step up

 

The terrible reward makes me avoid going there outside of when i want fun without a reward

 

Funny that alot of people would say the same thing except when its about PvP...

 

 

 

I have to agree as well. It's kind of self-evident by the fact that only a small handful of frames are actually useful for this as well. But currently with the way those small handful of frames scale, once you get to a specific point, the way you play changes completely. You more or less completely stop using weapons because they're useless and simply use a small number of specific abilities. For defense, that can basically mean just standing at the pod, hitting a couple keys when you need to re-apply abilities. I don't think that's quite how this game was meant to be played.

Its still in beta so hopefully its working towards its true end goal...

Edited by Azawarau
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I have to agree as well. It's kind of self-evident by the fact that only a small handful of frames are actually useful for this as well. But currently with the way those small handful of frames scale, once you get to a specific point, the way you play changes completely. You more or less completely stop using weapons because they're useless and simply use a small number of specific abilities. For defense, that can basically mean just standing at the pod, hitting a couple keys when you need to re-apply abilities. I don't think that's quite how this game was meant to be played.

that's very true but think about this for a second, I do think trinity needs a nerf and some other ones do to. but you hear all the crying about RNG and drop and "I went 2 years on survival and only got this and this" how much worse is it going to be when we are A- restricted to even less frames if we want to go far. and B- we can't go as far and this will make farming take longer. 

 

I am trying to play devils advocate here kinda, I want a rework but I also want people to be aware of the consequences that will happen. 

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that's very true but think about this for a second, I do think trinity needs a nerf and some other ones do to. but you hear all the crying about RNG and drop and "I went 2 years on survival and only got this and this" how much worse is it going to be when we are A- restricted to even less frames if we want to go far. and B- we can't go as far and this will make farming take longer. 

 

I am trying to play devils advocate here kinda, I want a rework but I also want people to be aware of the consequences that will happen. 

 

Well, for starters, I've never done absurdly long defense/survival, simply because I get bored when it gets to the point where you can't kill them with weapons, and because I've never had a need.

 

But second, (warning: more nerfs incoming) Trinity is only the tip of the iceberg. You don't even need Trinity to do that level of stuff, not really. She just makes it easier. Between Nyx and Frost (yes, post-nerf) you can generally do just fine. Then just add the Nova 2x damage cheese, and Necros for extra air drops, and you're set, whether it's defense or survival. Sure, survival will be harder because Trin's invulnerability lets you be mobile while Frost's doesn't, but it'll still be doable.

 

They're going to have to completely rework the energy system (possibly drop it altogether) or rework the corrupted mods that currently make all of these builds possible.

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Well, for starters, I've never done absurdly long defense/survival, simply because I get bored when it gets to the point where you can't kill them with weapons, and because I've never had a need.

 

But second, (warning: more nerfs incoming) Trinity is only the tip of the iceberg. You don't even need Trinity to do that level of stuff, not really. She just makes it easier. Between Nyx and Frost (yes, post-nerf) you can generally do just fine. Then just add the Nova 2x damage cheese, and Necros for extra air drops, and you're set, whether it's defense or survival. Sure, survival will be harder because Trin's invulnerability lets you be mobile while Frost's doesn't, but it'll still be doable.

 

They're going to have to completely rework the energy system (possibly drop it altogether) or rework the corrupted mods that currently make all of these builds possible.

Exactly trinity is just the biggest offender, although not as much on defense, mostly it is just survival, you can still lose defense because of the pod dying, trinity doesn't make it invincible. You do kinda need a trinity for the really crazy stuff but yah. 

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WARNING! Long read incoming!

The problem here does not lie in Trinity but in the players who use her.... DE could nerf the duration (I am assuming that the invulnerability mechanic will not be removed/ or at least will receive a rework since it is supposed to save an ally from a bad situation) of Blessing however they want and players will still find a way to exploit it...

Therefore unless Blessing receives an rework, it is safe to say that the problem will still remain.. I do have a suggestion for reworking Blessing but it is very unpolished, but perhaps you guys can tell me what you think after reading it?

Here's a note before I start. Along with Hydroid, there is the first ability that can be cancelled halfway through it's full duration (Undertow). So this brought up an idea that maybe DE could rework Blessing such that it provides a small-moderate AoE field, which last maybe around 5s, that provides invulnerability and will heal any players inside the field EXCEPT Trinity herself, during this period of time Trinity will also be the top priority for the enemies. Also, during this period of time Trinity is unable to perform any other action but she is able to cancel Blessing at any given time. (Think of Big Bad Voodoo from Warcraft 3, it is the same concept.)

With this rework, it can promote teamwork amongst players since they will have to stick closer to each other to get the effect of Blessing, the other three players will also have to protect Trinity during this period of time to prolong the duration of Blessing and Trinity players will have to consider either defensive builds (Health, shields etc.) or duration builds to better suit the situation, they must also be able to access the situation to decide whether or not to cancel Blessing or allow Blessing to continue. Personally I think it fits Trinity's role as a support quite well since it demands the player to be together with the team instead of the other side of the map.

Like I mentioned however, this idea is very unpolished so here are some of the flaws:
  Firstly, Link: Link will allow Trinity to have damage taken reduced, and at the same time, be able to damage any enemies who are under the effect of Link. This seems like a cool idea since Blessing will force enemies to attack Trinity, essentially adding some DPS for the team. However the problem comes in with the damage reduction. It is far too high. Players can just use Link before using Blessing and will be able to negate most damage done to her during that period of time, essentially allowing a full cast of Blessing without much of a trouble. So for this idea of Blessing, there is no doubt that something needs to be done to Link first.

 Secondly, other Warframes abilities: The idea of having Trinity be unable to perform any actions and will not be able to receive the invulnerability and healing is to cause players to think twice before rashly using Blessing since they will take damage and most importantly, go in the "down" state (This will cause a longer period of time without invulnerability for the other players). But, this setback can be immediately taken away with the help of certain other Warframes' abilities. For example, another Trinity's Blessing, Nyx's Absorb, Frost's Snowglobe etc. which immediately defeats the purpose of playing carefully to increase her efficiency. Solving this however will be hard since it will require some form of negation on other Warframes' abilities and will seem too large-scale to work on.

 Lastly, Nyx's Absorb: As mentioned earlier, Nyx's Absorb will be able to protect Trinity during this period of time by using her Absorb to soak up all the damage, but the problem lies in how Nyx's Absorb is able to function almost like Trinity's Blessing, if not better. Let me break it down. Absorb will be able to soak up any form of damage for anyone inside the sphere. Absorb will last much, much longer than Blessing. Absorb will also deal damage to surrounding enemies once it's duration is over, much like the Link+Blessing combo (Both calculates on damage taken, except Absorb will count damage from allies into the damage meter as well, making it far stronger). Blessing heals but Absorb doesn't. Players are not able to shoot out of Absorb(?) (Need confirmation) but are able to for Blessing.

These are all the flaws I can think of for now.... Tell me what do you guys think about this idea, maybe we can improve on this? Or perhaps if you do have a better idea I would be happy to look through it.

TL:DR: Blessing needs rework, not nerfs.

Thanks for the time taken up to read this and have a nice day Tenno :)

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