Nikana Stance Combos, Hitting Lower Than Initial Damage.

[Shuuro]

So. Today, I had gotten my hands on the second Nikana stance mod, Decisive judgement, and I decided to go punch in numbers to see how the damage scales on this stance versus the other. While doing my damage tests, I've noticed that both stances hit the normal damage amount with the standard three hits, E E E. This is with, and without the stance mods.

 

 

When it comes to the actual combo itself, for example, the E E Pause E E E Chain, the Pause E E E does significantly reduced damage. The multiple thrusts I can understand, as they add up in damage, but every other hit on every other combo chain for both stances, the damage appears to be heavily reduced. With my Mod layout. The E E E combo hits 1061 each with no multipliers (stealth, Steel charge, etc. None of that). When hitting with any part of the combo chain, it's all very low, 428 damage all around. This doesn't make any sense at all. Why struggle to do combos, if the initial standered E E E spam would result in a much larger gain of DPS compared to a carefully timed combo? Is this a bug? If it is, someone please tell me.

 

 

Here are some screenshots I took showing the damage done of individual hits.

Edit: Sorry. Some of the damage numbers are a bit difficult to see, but each picture has one! Again, sorry.

 

Damage of a normal E: (Damage 1061)

 

Damage of the E E [Pause E] Hit of Decisive Judgement. (Damage 428)

 

Damage of the E [Hold E] hit of Decisive Judgement. (Damage 331)

 

Damage of the E E [Pause E] Hit of Tranquil Cleave. (Damage 331)

 

Damage of the E E E [Hold E] Hit of Tranquil Cleave. (Damage 427)

 

Damage of the E E E Hold E [E] Hit of Tranquil Cleave. (Damage 774 w/ Slash proc)

 

Damage of the E E E [RMB + E] Hit of Tranquil Cleave. (Damage 331)

 

Damage of the E E E RMB + E [E] Hit of Tranquil Cleave. (Damage 331)

 

Damage of the E E E RMB + E E [E] Hit of Tranquil Cleave. (Damage 331)

 

 

Considering that we have to actually time our hits for combos, we should not be getting punished for pulling these off. If it gives us no reward. What is the point. I don't know if this is a bug or not, if it is, please fix this, I've shown you what I can. If it's not. Please consider adding some damage multipliers to the combo, because getting punished for doing a combo is illogical.

 

Side Note: While testing, the hits for E E Pause E [E] [E] for Tranquil Cleave seemed to be fine. Doing either normal or a bit higher damage.

Edited April 26, 2014 by Shuuro

[-CM-LittleSnow]

i m not sure if u know this. The 57 damage that reflects is actually the killing blow dmg taken by the enemy or his remaining health to be exact

[Shuuro]

You're looking at the wrong number entirely. That's the XP gain from killing the Grineer. Check again and you should see numbers like 331 and 428 as damage being done.

[LGear]

Edit: Ah, see the damage numbers in the screens.

 

Not the first time we have the first three attacks deal more damage than the actual combo attacks though. Crimson Dervish is one stance with such combos, where the first three deal 300% damage, then deal normal damage per hit on the combo attacks.

Edited April 26, 2014 by LGear

[Shuuro]

Right, because I'm gaining 1061 XP from low level grineer. Or better yet. I'm getting over 100k XP like this!

 

 

The 57 that shows up in BOLD is the XP, the smaller numbers are the damage. Or are you telling me that I'm gaining 774 Slash damage Proc XP like in the E E Hold E [E] Picture? There are one or two numbers in each picture. The 57's that show up are the are the XP's in that picture from killing them, there is another number in there that is damage.

 

Edit: Saw your edit. Kind of snapped. It's late. I'm tired, and I'm cranky. My apologies. Going to leave this picture up though so people get the point.

Edited April 26, 2014 by Shuuro

[ss4chris]

i think the clue   that the number wasnt the dmg was how could 57 dmg kill  an enemy. >.<

[Tarille]

It would've been nice if you could highlight the damage numbers (Finding them is rather annoying)

 

But for those who are focusing on the Affinity gain, I'll list the number shown:

 

1) 1061

2) 428

3) 331

4) 331

5) ??? (I honestly couldn't see one for this one)

6) 774

7) 331

8) 331

9) 331

 

As far as the damage goes, it is lower. I haven't been able to try the combo's yet (I don't have a Nikana) but do the combo's have any redeeming qualities? Such as faster attack rate, some CC in the form of knockdown/stun etc?

 

If not, then how does the basic attack chain damage compare with stanceless Nikana strikes?

[izzatuw]

I'm not interested in that but how did you get black energy?

[Shuuro]

It would've been nice if you could highlight the damage numbers (Finding them is rather annoying)

 

But for those who are focusing on the Affinity gain, I'll list the number shown:

 

1) 1061

2) 428

3) 331

4) 331

5) ??? (I honestly couldn't see one for this one)

6) 774

7) 331

8) 331

9) 331

 

As far as the damage goes, it is lower. I haven't been able to try the combo's yet (I don't have a Nikana) but do the combo's have any redeeming qualities? Such as faster attack rate, some CC in the form of knockdown/stun etc?

 

If not, then how does the basic attack chain damage compare with stanceless Nikana strikes?

 

5) is 427. Damage is shown on the grineers knee. Thank you though. I'm going to edit in the numbers into the post. 4:30 in the morning. No coffee. Too lazy to go to TimHortons.

[Shuuro]

I'm not interested in that but how did you get black energy?

 

It was added this patch. Just put on black energy color as your sword energy. Also, go into options > Display > Last one should be Constant weapon trail. Tada! Enjoy the trail of black energy.

[izzatuw]

It was added this patch. Just put on black energy color as your sword energy. Also, go into options > Display > Last one should be Constant weapon trail. Tada! Enjoy the trail of black energy.

So.. does this count for Warframe powers? And does it have to be a certain shade of black and thanks :).

[Shuuro]

As far as the damage goes, it is lower. I haven't been able to try the combo's yet (I don't have a Nikana) but do the combo's have any redeeming qualities? Such as faster attack rate, some CC in the form of knockdown/stun etc?

 

If not, then how does the basic attack chain damage compare with stanceless Nikana strikes?

 

Getting to your question now, there really is no benefit at all.

 

E E Pause E E E of Tranquil stops you into an in place combo.

 

E E E Hold E E of Tranquil has a dash at the end, but the range is still small in my opinion.

 

E E RMB + E E E of Tranquil also has a dash at the end, but the range is still average.

 

Those three combos can easily be out maneuvered by just running and doing E E, all while doing more damage.

 

E E Pause E E of Decisive throws you forward a lot, and hitting with the final hits are a chore.

 

E Hold E of Decisive makes you do an awesome rising slash followed by an awkward.. gentle fall. It's range is also quite terrible considering you lunge yourself forward, and the only thing you can hit is point blank of where you started the combo.

[Shuuro]

So.. does this count for Warframe powers? And does it have to be a certain shade of black and thanks :).

 

Warframe powers, I don't think it works yet. Doesn't work on my Syanadna or other skills I've tried yet. The shade of black I personally use is the darkest shade in the Smoke color tile.

[izzatuw]

Warframe powers, I don't think it works yet. Doesn't work on my Syanadna or other skills I've tried yet. The shade of black I personally use is the darkest shade in the Smoke color tile.

Bottom left?

[Shuuro]

Bottom left?

 

Yes.

 

Also. Back to the stances. At this point, doing combos is just purely cosmetic and serves to just look cool. You're kind of better off just using E E E spam. E E E is the same for no stance and Tranquil, E E E changes a bit for Decisive, but it feels like it has even less range. I personally just use E E Pause E on Tranquil since it doesn't slow me down while running, mixing in slide attacks to keep top speed.

[izzatuw]

Yes.

 

Also. Back to the stances. At this point, doing combos is just purely cosmetic and serves to just look cool. You're kind of better off just using E E E spam. E E E is the same for no stance and Tranquil, E E E changes a bit for Decisive, but it feels like it has even less range. I personally just use E E Pause E on Tranquil since it doesn't slow me down while running, mixing in slide attacks to keep top speed.

Thanks

I agree with your point. Stance combos just seem to be weird and not right in most cases.

I use Dual Ichors and I felt that just tapping E felt more efficient than trying to do a combo. They don't feel right and fighting against armed people it's a horrible thing to do. You'll be doing that combo while this guy is running away. Better off just running and spam E everywhere

[NDroid]

I noticed this too and with other stances, thank you for making a detailed post about it. Some combos at least have a knockdown effect which gives them some extra CC benefits but ultimately their execution needs to reward us with more damage, not less.

 

Also, the faster nature of E spamming helps with building up the damage multiplier quicker while some combos are actually slower and have built in pauses and movement penalties that can sometimes cost you the current multiplier you built up. Having combos extend the time before the counter resets might help.

[Sir_Alex_Traffo]

You're kind of better off just using E E E spam. E E E is the same for no stance and Tranquil, E E E changes a bit for Decisive, but it feels like it has even less range. 

Could you please tell me what is supposed to be the difference and what actually changes when using Decisive?

[Shuuro]

Could you please tell me what is supposed to be the difference and what actually changes when using Decisive?

 

The E E E Combo of Decisive changes into a two handed combo. It feels as if it has less range.

 

The E Hold E Combo is a rising slash that propels you forward, then you fall slowly, but you only hit targets at the initial combo location, nothing along the way.

 

The E E Pause E E Leaps you forward, and can be annoying to hit enemies with for the final slash.

 

If anything. This video could give you a better visual explanation. Can be found on the Decisive Judgement page on the wiki.

http://youtu.be/vVVIgfUr25g

[Calayne]

Hmm. Based on your initial strike, you're using mods, right? Could you do some tests with combos when completely unmodded for damage?

Based on the numbers, it may be possible that the stance combos have been overlooked in dealing damage (?). That's some really terrible damage for combos. It doesn't even build the counters up that fast. Some other stances do increased damage though. I wonder what all these differences mean?

[Shuuro]

Hmm. Based on your initial strike, you're using mods, right? Could you do some tests with combos when completely unmodded for damage?

Based on the numbers, it may be possible that the stance combos have been overlooked in dealing damage (?). That's some really terrible damage for combos. It doesn't even build the counters up that fast. Some other stances do increased damage though. I wonder what all these differences mean?

 

Alright. I'll go and run some quick tests then. I'll post some screenshots when I'm done.

[Shuuro]

Alright. So after testing the stance damages with no mods on. The results began to contradict the results of a Stance with mods equipped. The Stance combos Actually began hitting the same amount of damage as the initial damage. Some hits actually proving to hit harder than before.

 

 

Stanceless E E E all hit the same amount.

 

Tranquil E E [Pause E]

 

Tranquil E E Pause E [E]

 

Tranquil E E Pause E E [E] (Kick and Slash)

 

Tranquil E E E [Hold E]

 

Tranquil E E E Hold E [E]

 

Tranquil E E [RMB + E]

 

Tranquil E E RMB + E [E]

 

Tranquil E E RMB + E E [E]

 

Decisive E E E all hit the same amount.

 

Decisive E [Hold E]

 

Decisive E E [Pause E]

 

Decisive E E Pause E [E] (Leap Kick + End Slash)

 

 

While taking these screenshots. I found a special ability within the Tranquil Cleave stance that I haven't noticed before. The E E E Hold E [E] combo. The final slash seems to always proc slash without fail. I've yet to see it NOT proc once during all these screenshots I've been trying to take.

 

Speaking of which. While taking these screenshots. It just doesn't seem to add up. On an unmodded weapon, the damages from combos seem to benefit you more, while a modded weapon earns less value from combos? I'm beginning to lean towards the assumption that this is a bug. It seems that some mods are not effecting the combo damages? Either way. I hope this gets some attention when possible.

[Calayne]

That is very, VERY interesting. Thank you so much for your efforts! This is eye opening. It seems that throughout all the stances, certain combos have their multipliers done incorrectly.

Hmm. Certainly a good catch, but we should post these findings on the bugs category. It's certainly not working right.

[Shuuro]

Posted the results on the bugs category. Hopefully this gets some attention and gets a fix.

[Calayne]

For something that basically undermines their intention for one of the big overhauls? I sure hope it does!