Endless Defense And Survival Mini-Bosses

[YoshiPendragon]

I had an idea that perhaps the community can help fully flesh out. At the moment, Endless Defense missions are a bit monotonous in which you just grind and grind to watch the waves increase with no significant change per wave until the level scaling begins to go through the roof. At that point it just means more dodging and more bullets, but not a significant change in tactics. This suggestion can help increase both factors (risk vs reward) while also offering variety.

 

During checkpoints on Endless Defense or Survival (5 waves / 5 minutes) there is a random chance of a mini-boss to appear. On Endless Defense, the wave counter pauses after selecting "Continue to Fight" should RNG select mini-boss and resumes after it has been killed. On Survival, the mini-boss can appear after an additional reward has been offered. No life support will spawn (but existing can be activated) while the mini-boss is present, extraction will not be possible and the life support will continue to tick down. Upon death, the mini-boss will drop a rare mod (not blueprint) and a very large (75%) life support tank on Survival. Should the boss succeed in killing the team, destroying the pod, or running out life support, all rewards except pick-ups will be lost and the mission will be a failure.

 

Nature of the mini-bosses can vary based on faction. These can be as simple as very elite and enlargened versions of existing enemies, or they can have character to them. For example, Grineer could send in a heavily modified assassin very similar to the Stalker, except much more centric on gunplay and bleed procs. Corpus could offer up a Hyena pack or possibly an amped up return of the Raptor series. Infested could combine the abilities of all ancients together into one very powerful, very deadly ancient that attacks with a highly enhanced pet charger.

 

Please keep the topic civil and intelligent as it is in the name of enhancing replayability and excitement on otherwise dull missions. I would love to hear any ideas that could help build this out so that  DE may possibly look into incorporating something along these lines.

Edited April 27, 2014 by DoctorYoshi

[Methanoid]

youd want what?  something like wave10 bosses? something like you get on bot cop-op mode on hawken, to liven things up?

[Fayted]

It would certainly make things more interesting...kind of like the chances of running into a Tank or Witch in Left 4 Dead 2. Not sure about the inability to activate life support while the mini-boss is alive though. If it spawns when there's, say, 15% life support left, that may not be enough to kill it. Maybe have one life support spawn from the Lotus when the mini-boss spawns in, just as a contingency. One 30% life support spawn should be enough though.

[YoshiPendragon]

youd want what?  something like wave10 bosses? something like you get on bot cop-op mode on hawken, to liven things up?

 

Not a set wave. It's basically going to be based on percentage. Every 5 waves or 5 minutes the percentage chance to see the boss increases. For example...

 

Wave 5 = 1.5%

Wave 10 = 2.25%

Wave 15 = 3.375%

Wave 20 = 5.0625%

Wave 25 = 7.59375%

Wave 30 = 11.390625%

etc..etc.. (following 1.5% x 1.5 every increase in waves)

 

Survival would start at a base of 3% at 5 minutes and increase accordingly.

[OtakuTom1992]

Bleed procs..? *Has Eviscerator horror flashbacks*

[YoshiPendragon]

Bleed procs..? *Has Eviscerator horror flashbacks*

 

Exactly ;)

I hated that so much but it was definitely a challenge to overcome. Will make for a huge risk/reward factor with the Grineer mini-boss.

[XRAY0128]

What? Thats horribly RNG

 

Instead, make it guaranteed every 10 minute/10 waves

[Fayted]

Eh guaranteed takes some of the fun out of it. 60 waves/minutes and over though and you'll run into the mini-boss every five minutes. Maybe have the chances reset after each encounter?

[XRAY0128]

Wow... because every player goes 60 waves all the time huh? Funny how you guys always seem to forget that not everyone has 8 forma'd potato pentas and  immortal trinity

 

Whats even the point of it if it will only rarely break up the monotony? Maybe guaranteed isn't the way to go, but having it unlikely until you reach absurd times/waves that the game isn't even balanced around is just stupid.

Edited April 26, 2014 by XRAY0128

[OtakuTom1992]

I'd like to see some heavy targets if we're talking about some of the large open outdoor tilesets maybe one of those big Grineer spider/tank things we see all over Earth

[Evariskitsune]

If I might make some more in-depth suggestions:

 

I would say it be either Even every 10 minutes, or have the chances every 10 minutes based on an increasing probability table.  Mini-bosses should also be guaranteed to drop either the system's rare resource, an Orokin cell, Neurodes, or neural sensors.  (50/10/20/20% chance respectively.)

 

Grineer mini-boss: 

- Augmented -

Codex:  More machine than man, the Augmented are among the most elite Grineer troops, huge in stature, utilizing both a rocket launcher and rapid blade attacks at range. 

Sprint speed 0.75

time to turn 180 degrees 2 seconds.

Weapons: 

Ogris and Mitter, as well as a shockwave stomp. 

Health: Cloned Flesh 500, Machinery 5000, Alloy armor 1000. 

AI: As Bombard / Napalm. 

 

 

 

Corpus mini-boss: - https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/207583-krauserlols-ultimate-corpus-update-threat-the-corpus-shall-rise/page-1

- Corpus Titan -

Sprint speed 0.75

time to turn 180 degrees 2 seconds. 

Torso twist in forward 120 degree arc with a full twist in 1 second. 

Jump height 2 meters. 

Shields: 2000 proto shields, regenerative as with warframes though at a 25% rate penalty vs excalibur base. 

Health: Alloy Armor: 500, Robotic 5000.

Weapons:

Primary-

+Option A: Heavy Flux Rifle (as with Flux rifle, but twice the range, twice the slash damage, and also +50% heat damage.)

+Option B: Heavy Plasma Cannon  (Tetra but with significantly heightened damage.)

+Option C: Quadruple Supras (self explanatory)

Secondary-

+Option A: Dual Chainguns (as 2x Soma)

+Option B: Dual Pentas (self explanatory)

Melee-

Rebuilt Orokin Plasma Blade:   Physical Damage as Gram, +100% magnetic damage, +100% heat damage.  Attacks in forward arcs similar to the katana but in reverse pattern order.

 

Infested Mini-boss: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/207583-krauserlols-ultimate-corpus-update-threat-the-corpus-shall-rise/page-3

- Infested Titan -  (would appear in pairs or as a group)

Sprint speed 0.50,

time to turn 180 degrees 4 seconds. 

Torso twist in forward 120 degree arc with a full twist in 2 seconds. 

Jump height 1 meter. 

Health: Alloy Armor: 500, Infested 500, Sinew 1000.

Weapons limited to melee:

Attack 1:  Swing- attacks with arm, dealing 150 impact damage on connect.

Attack 2: Charge- Charges forward, knocking down enemies in path, dealing 200 impact damage to any enemy hit.

Attack 3: Claw- attacks with claw, dealing 200 slash damage on connect.

Attack 4: Tentacles- lashes out, knocking down or ragdolling what is hit, deals 100 impact damage.

[YoshiPendragon]

What? Thats horribly RNG

 

Instead, make it guaranteed every 10 minute/10 waves

 

The reason that it shouldn't be set is for variation and variety. If you KNOW that every 10 waves you will have a mini-boss, then you can say "meh let's collect and go" or "get over here and be ready". By randomly selecting when the attack happens (with higher probability the longer you stay) you avoid adding an additional layer of stagnation and predicability. Should DE make multiple mini-bosses, there would be a second layer of RNG to select which boss appears. These could scale in difficulty as well so that the RNG table could appear something like this:

 

 

[YoshiPendragon]

If I might make some more in-depth suggestions:

 

I would say it be either Even every 10 minutes, or have the chances every 10 minutes based on an increasing probability table.  Mini-bosses should also be guaranteed to drop either the system's rare resource, an Orokin cell, Neurodes, or neural sensors.  (50/10/20/20% chance respectively.)

 

Grineer mini-boss: 

- Augmented -

Codex:  More machine than man, the Augmented are among the most elite Grineer troops, huge in stature, utilizing both a rocket launcher and rapid blade attacks at range. 

Sprint speed 0.75

time to turn 180 degrees 2 seconds.

Weapons: 

Ogris and Mitter, as well as a shockwave stomp. 

Health: Cloned Flesh 500, Machinery 5000, Alloy armor 1000. 

AI: As Bombard / Napalm. 

 

 

 

Corpus mini-boss: - https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/207583-krauserlols-ultimate-corpus-update-threat-the-corpus-shall-rise/page-1

- Corpus Titan -

Sprint speed 0.75

time to turn 180 degrees 2 seconds. 

Torso twist in forward 120 degree arc with a full twist in 1 second. 

Jump height 2 meters. 

Shields: 2000 proto shields, regenerative as with warframes though at a 25% rate penalty vs excalibur base. 

Health: Alloy Armor: 500, Robotic 5000.

Weapons:

Primary-

+Option A: Heavy Flux Rifle (as with Flux rifle, but twice the range, twice the slash damage, and also +50% heat damage.)

+Option B: Heavy Plasma Cannon  (Tetra but with significantly heightened damage.)

+Option C: Quadruple Supras (self explanatory)

Secondary-

+Option A: Dual Chainguns (as 2x Soma)

+Option B: Dual Pentas (self explanatory)

Melee-

Rebuilt Orokin Plasma Blade:   Physical Damage as Gram, +100% magnetic damage, +100% heat damage.  Attacks in forward arcs similar to the katana but in reverse pattern order.

 

Infested Mini-boss: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/207583-krauserlols-ultimate-corpus-update-threat-the-corpus-shall-rise/page-3

- Infested Titan -  (would appear in pairs or as a group)

Sprint speed 0.50,

time to turn 180 degrees 4 seconds. 

Torso twist in forward 120 degree arc with a full twist in 2 seconds. 

Jump height 1 meter. 

Health: Alloy Armor: 500, Infested 500, Sinew 1000.

Weapons limited to melee:

Attack 1:  Swing- attacks with arm, dealing 150 impact damage on connect.

Attack 2: Charge- Charges forward, knocking down enemies in path, dealing 200 impact damage to any enemy hit.

Attack 3: Claw- attacks with claw, dealing 200 slash damage on connect.

Attack 4: Tentacles- lashes out, knocking down or ragdolling what is hit, deals 100 impact damage.

 

Thank you for the input, this kind of stuff is very useful in brainstorming. I definitely love the ideas for the mini-bosses.

[YoshiPendragon]

Wow... because every player goes 60 waves all the time huh? Funny how you guys always seem to forget that not everyone has 8 forma'd potato pentas and  immortal trinity

 

Whats even the point of it if it will only rarely break up the monotony? Maybe guaranteed isn't the way to go, but having it unlikely until you reach absurd times/waves that the game isn't even balanced around is just stupid.

 

For one, it doesn't take forma'd gear to reach higher waves. It only takes intelligence, strategy and teamwork. There's no reason to punish those who can reach the higher waves to cater to those who cannot. More incentive to learn your frame and weapon well enough to succeed in tough situations, and to find a good group of individuals (probably in a clan) with whom you can hold out for extended periods of time. It also should not be such that if you only run 30 waves, you encounter a mini-boss every mission. From a lore standpoint, I highly doubt that leaders of a faction would bother frequently sending in their best unless the Tenno prove to be a great enough threat that their typical forces cannot handle. There will still always be a percentage possibility even at easier waves as it isn't uncommon for a leader to randomly send in a trump card to keep the enemy in check (the enemy being us Tenno).

 

I'd like to see some heavy targets if we're talking about some of the large open outdoor tilesets maybe one of those big Grineer spider/tank things we see all over Earth

 

This could be quite interesting as well. Introduction of combat vehicles or machines on certain tilesets. Would make use of the "machine" damage resistance that we seldom have to encounter at the current time.

[XRAY0128]

Wait.. how would it be punishing them? Punishing them with new content?

 

I understand the idea "not making things stale" but this basically means that people joining or people still on the early game are being locked out of more content, just because some people can get to places where they technically aren't actually suppossed to get to

[OtakuTom1992]

I really hope this or something like this is on their table of things could try to implement it'd make it a whole lot more challenging and fun. I could imagine Corpus using a larger pilot-able MOA fusing with a huge Drone to carry it around for the dam defense tileset :p

[YoshiPendragon]

Wait.. how would it be punishing them? Punishing them with new content?

 

I understand the idea "not making things stale" but this basically means that people joining or people still on the early game are being locked out of more content, just because some people can get to places where they technically aren't actually suppossed to get to

 

It would punish them by scaling down the difficulty or taking away higher level content in the sake of not having something new players cannot reach. This is an illogical approach and doesn't fall in line with the rest of Warframe. A brand new player to the game cannot jump right in and access Sargus Ruk, Vay Hek, Raptor, Lephantis without having someone taxi them. Even with a taxi, they will find it nearly impossible to defeat these bosses. The same concept would go for the higher wave mini-bosses. It would require a stronger player to assist in carrying them high enough, but they are still able to experience this content as early on as Venus (or anywhere with solar chart taxi). And nothing says that players should not be able to access 100+ wave or 2+ hour Defense/Survival missions. I have witnessed this many times on teams that don't use Nova or Trinity by using tactics and Damage 2.0 in their favor. Why do most of these players do this? A challenge! This game seldom presents a challenge for skilled players until you get into the areas of ridiculous enemy scaling long into a battle, and that challenge stems strictly from bullet-sponging and having to dodge massively damaging attacks that can one-hit your frame.

 

Adding in mini-bosses will introduce (if dont correctly) a great challenge earlier on for those players so that they don't have to invest so much time into a single mission to feel accomplished. Greatest part is, it may throw in a "Nightmare" mini-boss and completely take them by surprise and rock their world. Imagine a mini-boss carrying in a random Nightmare mode effect while it is alive, such as draining out energy or a timer in which the mini-boss must be killed or it will self-destruct next to the pod or blast the windows out ending life support. The possibilities are endless.

[XRAY0128]

Easy solution? Have different bosses for higher levels..

[YoshiPendragon]

Easy solution? Have different bosses for higher levels..

 

That's exactly what I have been suggesting. Re-read my posts. The chance of encountering a boss will increase with every 5 waves / 5 minutes. This is level 1 of RNG. As the waves increase, the chances of encountering an "Advanced" boss over a "Normal" boss will also increase. This is level 2 of RNG. This can be fleshed out easily to incorporate multiple stages of mini-boss difficulty, i.e. "Normal", "Advanced", "Hard", "Nightmare". Each stage is a completely different mini-boss with different powers, tactics and possibly even world-effects. The longer you go, the higher the risk of your butt getting handed to you by a very tough combatant.

[XRAY0128]

Heck, might be nice to have minibosses pop-up in other game modes too. 

 

I think the mini-boss concept was kind of the idea behind leaders, but they end up feeling more like cheap-shot glass cannons most of the time. 

 

If you encounter them at without good gear, they could flatten you before you can even react, but once you do have good gear, they mostly end up being an inconvenience

[YoshiPendragon]

Heck, might be nice to have minibosses pop-up in other game modes too. 

 

I think the mini-boss concept was kind of the idea behind leaders, but they end up feeling more like cheap-shot glass cannons most of the time. 

 

If you encounter them at without good gear, they could flatten you before you can even react, but once you do have good gear, they mostly end up being an inconvenience

 

The "leaders" are cool but they're more along the lines of a stronger mob than a boss. Most of them, especially the prosecuters, are simply to get people to focus more on Damage 2.0 than anything else. My heart doesn't pound when a leader or prosecuter appear, I just go "eh anyone got _____? no? ok smack at them until their HP falls off..." A mini-boss fight should give you that feeling like when the Stalker shows up, or the first time you encountered Zanuka. I can see mini-bosses being a random encounter ordeal on other mission types, but we already have Stalker, Harvester and Grustrag Three for that. 

[XRAY0128]

We only already have Stalker, G3 and Harvey for that if we got marked by them.,.. 

 

Further more I don't get this "make your hear pound" thing... my heart doesnt pound for any of the bosses... or most bosses I've ever fought in most videogames I've played... thats a really subjective way to judge whether something counts as a mid-boss or not.

[YoshiPendragon]

We only already have Stalker, G3 and Harvey for that if we got marked by them.,.. 

 

Further more I don't get this "make your hear pound" thing... my heart doesnt pound for any of the bosses... or most bosses I've ever fought in most videogames I've played... thats a really subjective way to judge whether something counts as a mid-boss or not.

 

Just because you do not get as emotionally involved with your boss fights as others does not make it a null point. Boss battles are supposed to be unsettling as they have abilities and power well beyond what you have. It takes true intellgence to bring a great boss down. This quality is what raises your adrenaline, makes your heart pound, gets you sweating. When you're down to that last 5 HP, you can count your ammunition on one hand and your team lies dead in a puddle of blood, meanwhile the boss struts around with 50% health remaining and an arsenal full of goodies... that is a true battle. One that only the best walk away from. I have experienced these moments in Left 4 Dead against Expert Realism tanks, Mass Effect 1/2/3 while fighting Reapers, Devil May Cry, Resident Evil, Silent Hill, Legend of Zelda, etc etc... Developers go for this affect within their games, and if you aren't experiencing such then I really don't know what I can suggest to make you enjoy a game at a more intense level.

[XRAY0128]

Guess you were playing on Insanity... only really had trouble in ME2 when it came to Scions, and not so much in ME3. 

 

I'd agree that a good boss takes strategy and reflexes to beat, but the emotional stuff is still kinda subjective.

 

Whoa there... because I don't get all panicky doesn't mean I don't enjoy fighting them.. its just that I think its not a good way to judge the overall quality of a boss fight.

 

Another thing to consider is that because of the variable environments, you can't really have too complex mini-bosses, lest the environment interferes in unexpected ways

[11.11.11]

Hmm, some interesting ideas here, just two quick points: 

 

- Enemy leveling might have to be reduced or dampened a bit to facilitate the mini-bosses. Not much point having a dude in neat armor, with unique animations and a flashy gun spawn in - if you're already pinned down by 50 lancers firing continuous waves of bleed proc's at you, and tanking 10 paris prime arrows to the skull. 

 

- Didn't we already get mini-bosses? Or were the random guys in black armor - shooting firestorms and projecting icebubbles out of their faces added for another reason?