Endless Defense And Survival Mini-Bosses

[Fayted]

Good point about the leaders and prosecutors. A mini-boss should definitely be something that requires more strategy like that of a boss, than a specific damage type just to do more damage to them. The elite mobs in Army of TWO: The 40th Day come to mind where you have to shoot a specific thing to do damage to them. But something more complicated than they were.

[OtakuTom1992]

A random mini-boss encounter like when the Lotus decides to change your mission halfway through

[YoshiPendragon]

Hmm, some interesting ideas here, just two quick points: 

 

- Enemy leveling might have to be reduced or dampened a bit to facilitate the mini-bosses. Not much point having a dude in neat armor, with unique animations and a flashy gun spawn in - if you're already pinned down by 50 lancers firing continuous waves of bleed proc's at you, and tanking 10 paris prime arrows to the skull. 

 

- Didn't we already get mini-bosses? Or were the random guys in black armor - shooting firestorms and projecting icebubbles out of their faces added for another reason? 

 

The leaders and prosecuters aren't mini-bosses. They're just the equivalent of an elite mob you'd find in any MMORPG. I'm thinking something more along the lines of Big Daddies from Bioshock, Dark Nut from Twilight Princess, The Berserker from Gears of War, Ogroman from RE6. 

[11.11.11]

The leaders and prosecuters aren't mini-bosses. They're just the equivalent of an elite mob you'd find in any MMORPG. I'm thinking something more along the lines of Big Daddies from Bioshock, Dark Nut from Twilight Princess, The Berserker from Gears of War, Ogroman from RE6. 

 

Sounds good to me. I wasn't talking about the prosecutors - I was referring to the special mobs with particle effects and AOE abilities. 

[YoshiPendragon]

Sounds good to me. I wasn't talking about the prosecutors - I was referring to the special mobs with particle effects and AOE abilities. 

 

The leaders would've been cool if they weren't just an annoyance that can be one-shot by most weapons. They could potentially be reworked or left alone with the addition of mini-bosses. 

[ObviousLee]

i just want something that has some mechanics to it other than "aim in direction and shoot to win".

 

i want to have to dodge what the baddie is throwing at me because it's instant death - not because he's been scaled to just be a punk, but because he's a badass.

 

i want to fight badass enemies, not the same enemies with a different number above their head that only  ahandful of weapons and powers can do anything about.

 

119 mobs vs. 6 forma phage. phage wins.

 

gimme something to shoot thats gonna have me on the pure defensive, fighting for my life in the hope that im gonna bring the beast down, not that i merely have to change my loadout for.

 

like.......alternating weaknesses, that shift from point to point on the body: head/chest/Rarm/Larm/Rleg/Lleg and have each with a random elemental resistance and weakness that shift from part to partk i.e. toxin/lightning move from head to right arm, while fire moves from left arm to head, so on so forth.

[YoshiPendragon]

i just want something that has some mechanics to it other than "aim in direction and shoot to win".

 

i want to have to dodge what the baddie is throwing at me because it's instant death - not because he's been scaled to just be a punk, but because he's a badass.

 

i want to fight badass enemies, not the same enemies with a different number above their head that only  ahandful of weapons and powers can do anything about.

 

119 mobs vs. 6 forma phage. phage wins.

 

gimme something to shoot thats gonna have me on the pure defensive, fighting for my life in the hope that im gonna bring the beast down, not that i merely have to change my loadout for.

 

like.......alternating weaknesses, that shift from point to point on the body: head/chest/Rarm/Larm/Rleg/Lleg and have each with a random elemental resistance and weakness that shift from part to partk i.e. toxin/lightning move from head to right arm, while fire moves from left arm to head, so on so forth.

 

Good points, and definitely what I would love to see in a mini-boss. What you're explaining is very similar to the new Sargus Ruk with his vents opening for temporary vulnerability while also dealing out massive AoE fire attacks that you have to dodge. My issue would be with changing the weakness types. Because of how Damage 2.0 is set up, a lot of combinations are ultimately useless and are seldom equipped. This would render the boss-fight impossible should someone not have the necessary combination slotted into their weapon. Some players are so unlucky with RNG that they don't even own an elemental damage mod yet nor do they know how to obtain it. Requiring certain weapons, on the other hand, would be pretty fun. For example, you would have to use a rifle/shotgun/pistols to take their knees out while they are exposed, and then once the mini-boss drops down someone must run in and use a back-stab melee attack to mount the boss and deliver a massively damaging blow. Perhaps even go along the lines of Resident Evil boss battles and reward teamwork to where one person can run in and hold the boss during their moment of weakness and another can slash away at their front for big damage, but both must retreat before they are ready to fight back or risk being incapped in a fit of rage. 

[Evariskitsune]

Personally I'm not in favor of a weakspot-only enemy.  It annoys the hell out of me when I'm firing a rocket launcher / high power sniper rifle / laser / w/e at a thin joint aaand.. it does no damage.   Or with Ruk, shooting his face where there is still flesh i.e. no armor and... no damage.

 

 

seems stupid to me, is all.  Difficulty should be introduced through tougher AI, offensive abilities of the mini-boss, mobility to match the speed of players, and the defenses to soak up the damage that players will be able to throw at it.  

[ObviousLee]

my overall point was something interesting, and challenging, much as per your suggestion for a mini boss. it would be compelling to play against because it has something unique to it, instead of simple scaling. just a challenge is all i want, something that's going to surprise me, make me say ohshi-spasmic gunfire ensues. i know DE is capable of it, i just wish they'd talk back to us a lot more.

[YoshiPendragon]

Personally I'm not in favor of a weakspot-only enemy.  It annoys the hell out of me when I'm firing a rocket launcher / high power sniper rifle / laser / w/e at a thin joint aaand.. it does no damage.   Or with Ruk, shooting his face where there is still flesh i.e. no armor and... no damage.

 

 

seems stupid to me, is all.  Difficulty should be introduced through tougher AI, offensive abilities of the mini-boss, mobility to match the speed of players, and the defenses to soak up the damage that players will be able to throw at it.  

 

 

my overall point was something interesting, and challenging, much as per your suggestion for a mini boss. it would be compelling to play against because it has something unique to it, instead of simple scaling. just a challenge is all i want, something that's going to surprise me, make me say ohshi-spasmic gunfire ensues. i know DE is capable of it, i just wish they'd talk back to us a lot more.

Done correctly, selective vulnerability can be very very fun and challenging. One thing that really bothers me that DE does is INvulnerability in the absence of a weakspot. I think that the enemies should have massive damage resistance while not exposing a weak point, but definitely should not be invulnerable. As for the vulnerable spots themselves, putting them on a randomized timer makes no sense to me at all.

 

"Hey you know what, let me open up this spot that I know is absolutely critical to my survival for a few seconds to tease them, behehehe. Oh you missed it? I'll do it again! Behehehe!"

 

No, I don't think so. Not unless we have the stupidest most arrogant enemies in the world. What I do like is the requirement of teamwork and timing to create a vulnerable spot. Using your weapon to shoot the boss in the hand so that they drop their shield, in the back of the leg to make them cripple into a kneeling position or a perfectly timed shot at their charged energy chamber to make erupt it, any of which creating a moment of weakness and exposing a critical point that must be capitalized on... that is a fun challenge. There must be risk to this, though, like a randomized unknown timer in which the boss will burst back into action with a very powerful AoE attack. This forces you to decide when enough is enough, when to fall back and prepare for another onslaught. Should only one teammate reside within their reach upon their recovery, they could be grabbed/hooked/pounced and instantly killed or incapped. 

Edited April 27, 2014 by DoctorYoshi

[.Talia.]

I like this idea. 

[Evariskitsune]

Done correctly, selective vulnerability can be very very fun and challenging. One thing that really bothers me that DE does is INvulnerability in the absence of a weakspot. I think that the enemies should have massive damage resistance while not exposing a weak point, but definitely should not be invulnerable. As for the vulnerable spots themselves, putting them on a randomized timer makes no sense to me at all.

 

"Hey you know what, let me open up this spot that I know is absolutely critical to my survival for a few seconds to tease them, behehehe. Oh you missed it? I'll do it again! Behehehe!"

 

No, I don't think so. Not unless we have the stupidest most arrogant enemies in the world. What I do like is the requirement of teamwork and timing to create a vulnerable spot. Using your weapon to shoot the boss in the hand so that they drop their shield, in the back of the leg to make them cripple into a kneeling position or a perfectly timed shot at their charged energy chamber to make erupt it, any of which creating a moment of weakness and exposing a critical point that must be capitalized on... that is a fun challenge. There must be risk to this, though, like a randomized unknown timer in which the boss will burst back into action with a very powerful AoE attack. This forces you to decide when enough is enough, when to fall back and prepare for another onslaught. Should only one teammate reside within their reach upon their recovery, they could be grabbed/hooked/pounced and instantly killed or incapped. 

See this I'm okay with.

[KrazyKrl]

In Endless defense, the boss MUST spawn after all the enemies in the applicable wave are dead; and before the wave ends.

 

In Survival, the boss MUST spawn at the applicable timer; life support temporarily enabled for the fight. Your level of life support is retained, and continues to deplete after the boss dies. The boss has a 100% chance to drop ( 3 + boss appearance number capped at 5) life support packs. So the first kill gives you 12%LS, second gives you 16% LS, every boss kill after, and including, the third; drops 20% life support.

 

 

Bosses with weakspots and ~95% damage reduction off of the weakspot should be standard for bosses imo.

 

 

I think that more RNG boss spawns are a bad idea. I'd rather have minibosses have a 100% chance of spawning at the "milestone" tier 3 drop 15waves/20minutes, and their multiples. Ramping up as the mission goes on for a while.

 

First boss spawns at tier 3

Second at the second tier 2 and tier 3

Third at the third tier 1 reward, and every reward wave/minute after that.

 

So the spawn would be like this:

Endless Defense:

Wave 15

Wave 25

Wave 30

Wave 35

Wave 40

Wave 45

Wave 50

Wave 55

Wave 60

etc.

 

Survival:

Minute 20

Minute 30

Minute 35

Minute 40

Minute 45

Minute 50

Minute 55

Minute 60

Minute 65

etc.

[YoshiPendragon]

In Endless defense, the boss MUST spawn after all the enemies in the applicable wave are dead; and before the wave ends.

 

*snip*

 

The only issue with that is they are no longer a random threat posing a high risk, they simply become part of the gameplay that you prepare for as you know exactly when they will appear. A great deal of the purpose behind this idea is "Do we select continue and chance facing a boss that might come wreck our faces and negate all of our work?" Perhaps they show, perhaps they won't. The fun is that you don't know when they might rear their ugly head, or how difficult of a boss is going to walk in should it actually show itself. The boss would appear after the countdown for Leave/Stay selection has completed, before the next wave would begin. On Survival, the timer would pause at the checkpoint increment and the boss would appear, life support and enemies would stop spawning, but you could continue to activate already spawned life support to assist in the fight until you get the large life support drop off of the dead boss. Once the boss is beaten, the timer will continue counting up and life support would resume spawning with the enemies.

[KrazyKrl]

The only issue with that is they are no longer a random threat posing a high risk, they simply become part of the gameplay that you prepare for as you know exactly when they will appear. A great deal of the purpose behind this idea is "Do we select continue and chance facing a boss that might come wreck our faces and negate all of our work?" Perhaps they show, perhaps they won't. The fun is that you don't know when they might rear their ugly head, or how difficult of a boss is going to walk in should it actually show itself. The boss would appear after the countdown for Leave/Stay selection has completed, before the next wave would begin. On Survival, the timer would pause at the checkpoint increment and the boss would appear, life support and enemies would stop spawning, but you could continue to activate already spawned life support to assist in the fight until you get the large life support drop off of the dead boss. Once the boss is beaten, the timer will continue counting up and life support would resume spawning with the enemies.

 

I don't see why minibosses still shouldn't still be a high risk. They are there to stop you from attaining your objective, and as such; should be more vicious and more common the longer you spend in the mission.

 

As for the RNG spawning mechanic.. RNG is NOT fun, what if you want to farm the minibosses for whatever? What if you have a new frame, and you just want to play a few waves, and have the availability to extract before you know it'll get difficult. What if RNG screws you, and that 1% spawn at wave 5 happens, then the 2% chance at wave 10... but you're on Venus with some MR0s... Sounds like a rather large turnoff for a large portion of newbies that might want to try out some endless gametypes.

 

Also, not using RNG gives another choice to the player. "I'm not sure if my squad can take on the boss at wave 15, lets leave at wave 10." instead of "OH GOD WHAT IS THAT IT'S EATING MY FACE WHY! I JUST WANTED TO GET SOME AFFINITY ARE THOSE EYE LASERS?! <mission failed>"

[YoshiPendragon]

I don't see why minibosses still shouldn't still be a high risk. They are there to stop you from attaining your objective, and as such; should be more vicious and more common the longer you spend in the mission.

 

As for the RNG spawning mechanic.. RNG is NOT fun, what if you want to farm the minibosses for whatever? What if you have a new frame, and you just want to play a few waves, and have the availability to extract before you know it'll get difficult. What if RNG screws you, and that 1% spawn at wave 5 happens, then the 2% chance at wave 10... but you're on Venus with some MR0s... Sounds like a rather large turnoff for a large portion of newbies that might want to try out some endless gametypes.

 

Also, not using RNG gives another choice to the player. "I'm not sure if my squad can take on the boss at wave 15, lets leave at wave 10." instead of "OH GOD WHAT IS THAT IT'S EATING MY FACE WHY! I JUST WANTED TO GET SOME AFFINITY ARE THOSE EYE LASERS?! <mission failed>"

 

We have enough things to farm already, and people still farm Stalker / Grustrag Three / Harvester even though they are RNG based. I highly doubt people will want to slow down their Defense/Survival progression consistently to fight the same couple of mini-bosses over and over. With the likelyhood that it would be a small variety of mini-bosses, having them seldom appear but be extremely devastating is what will add flavor to the game. If a new player gets upset that they lose a 1 in 100 chance of a mini-boss coming in to eat their face, then they're going to really hate how Warframe plays out later when any of those three previously mentioned fun-suckers steps in to take their cake. The idea is to keep the flow of the game moving, but throw in a really steep hurdle here and there to keep people on their toes. Not routine speed-bumps that will just further wear you down.

 

[Fayted]

Like DoctorYoshi has been saying, a guaranteed mini-boss at set points is too easy to prepare for. But if caught off guard by a chance mini-boss you'll be stuck with more of a challenge on your hands if you're totally unprepared. I understand that that could be a problem with low ranked frames and weapons, but that's why it would be a lower percentage that increases as you go further and further. To avoid farming don't give the mini-bosses their own specific item drops like Stalker, Harvester, and G3 have. 

 

Done correctly, selective vulnerability can be very very fun and challenging. One thing that really bothers me that DE does is INvulnerability in the absence of a weakspot. I think that the enemies should have massive damage resistance while not exposing a weak point, but definitely should not be invulnerable. As for the vulnerable spots themselves, putting them on a randomized timer makes no sense to me at all.

 

So less like Sargus Ruk and more like Jackal. Or even Alad V + Zanuka.

 

I would say it be either Even every 10 minutes, or have the chances every 10 minutes based on an increasing probability table.  Mini-bosses should also be guaranteed to drop either the system's rare resource, an Orokin cell, Neurodes, or neural sensors.  (50/10/20/20% chance respectively.)

 

Going back to drops...Life Support guaranteed drop? The above suggestions would be great as well. Maybe even a Rare Fusion Core or other mod? But nothing specific to the mini-bosses. It's a big enough headache to get the drops from the three previously mentioned enemies without having more rare enemy exclusive drops...

[notionphil]

The reason that it shouldn't be set is for variation and variety. If you KNOW that every 10 waves you will have a mini-boss, then you can say "meh let's collect and go" or "get over here and be ready". By randomly selecting when the attack happens (with higher probability the longer you stay) you avoid adding an additional layer of stagnation and predicability. Should DE make multiple mini-bosses, there would be a second layer of RNG to select which boss appears. These could scale in difficulty as well so that the RNG table could appear something like this:

 

 

 

those numbers are way too low. You'll encounter the Stalker/G3/Harvester as often.

 

I've played dark sector defense about 5 times today (highest lv)...and the longest I can get a PUG to stay in is wave 10.  So I'd have a 2% chance of having the monotony broken? Nah, thanks anyway.

 

Try more like 10% chance to spawn each wave, instead of at the end where it would be obvious. And if they do spawn, make a 10% chance of spawning 2.

[YoshiPendragon]

 

Like DoctorYoshi has been saying, a guaranteed mini-boss at set points is too easy to prepare for. But if caught off guard by a chance mini-boss you'll be stuck with more of a challenge on your hands if you're totally unprepared. I understand that that could be a problem with low ranked frames and weapons, but that's why it would be a lower percentage that increases as you go further and further. To avoid farming don't give the mini-bosses their own specific item drops like Stalker, Harvester, and G3 have. 

 

 

So less like Sargus Ruk and more like Jackal. Or even Alad V + Zanuka.

 

 

Going back to drops...Life Support guaranteed drop? The above suggestions would be great as well. Maybe even a Rare Fusion Core or other mod? But nothing specific to the mini-bosses. It's a big enough headache to get the drops from the three previously mentioned enemies without having more rare enemy exclusive drops...

 

 

I was thinking this would be a good opportunity to give an additional spawn location for stance mods. Successfully killing the boss results in either a rare stance mod or maybe even a nightmare mod dropping. WIth great risk should come great reward, and I can't name any bosses that drop useful mods right now.

[YoshiPendragon]

those numbers are way too low. You'll encounter the Stalker/G3/Harvester as often.

 

I've played dark sector defense about 5 times today (highest lv)...and the longest I can get a PUG to stay in is wave 10.  So I'd have a 2% chance of having the monotony broken? Nah, thanks anyway.

 

Try more like 10% chance to spawn each wave, instead of at the end where it would be obvious. And if they do spawn, make a 10% chance of spawning 2.

 

Obviously the spawn rates are open for discussion, I was trying to keep the frequency at a modest level increasing with the higher waves. Keep in mind that you wouldn't want the spawn rate TOO high or else you'll be stopping every 5 waves to enter into a 5-10 minute battle that may leave you in a fragile condition for the oncoming waves. This could get really tiresome for those that are farming Defense/Survival for the rewards presented by the mission as you're not spacing out and slowing down the rate at which they can re-roll the RNG reward.

[notionphil]

Obviously the spawn rates are open for discussion, I was trying to keep the frequency at a modest level increasing with the higher waves. Keep in mind that you wouldn't want the spawn rate TOO high or else you'll be stopping every 5 waves to enter into a 5-10 minute battle that may leave you in a fragile condition for the oncoming waves. This could get really tiresome for those that are farming Defense/Survival for the rewards presented by the mission as you're not spacing out and slowing down the rate at which they can re-roll the RNG reward.

 

I was under the impression that a miniboss would be shorter than a boss battle. Most of the 'non-epic' bosses take about 1 min to kill max (everyone besides lephantis/hek and maaaaybe krill).

 

I would hope this was more of a 30 second fight that went on during the round, with other spawns taking place. Like a single hyena, or a phorid.

 

If it were a 5-10 min boss fight, that's a lot more boss than ppl are bargaining for to just pop up randomly. I'd expect a lot of 'abort missions' if you randomly spring a 5m fight on ppl who aren't looking for it.

[KrazyKrl]

Obviously the spawn rates are open for discussion, I was trying to keep the frequency at a modest level increasing with the higher waves. Keep in mind that you wouldn't want the spawn rate TOO high or else you'll be stopping every 5 waves to enter into a 5-10 minute battle that may leave you in a fragile condition for the oncoming waves. This could get really tiresome for those that are farming Defense/Survival for the rewards presented by the mission as you're not spacing out and slowing down the rate at which they can re-roll the RNG reward.

 

Diluted drop tables should not affect the spawnrates of minibosses in endless gametypes. The minibosses should be designed to stop you from attaining your objective, they should scale up even quicker than the standard enemies you are fighting. Minibosses at set intervals would enable more planning and choice to whoever is playing the mission.

Edited April 27, 2014 by KrazyKrl

[YoshiPendragon]

Diluted drop tables should not affect the spawnrates of minibosses in endless gametypes. The minibosses should be designed to stop you from attaining your objective, they should scale up even quicker than the standard enemies you are fighting. Minibosses at set intervals would enable more planning and choice to whoever is playing the mission.

 

You're missing the point here. This isn't about dramatically altering the current flow of Endless Defense or Survival, it is about incorporating a random encounter to throw people off their game when they least expect it.

[Fayted]

I was under the impression that a miniboss would be shorter than a boss battle. Most of the 'non-epic' bosses take about 1 min to kill max (everyone besides lephantis/hek and maaaaybe krill).

 

I would hope this was more of a 30 second fight that went on during the round, with other spawns taking place. Like a single hyena, or a phorid.

 

Good point. Five minutes for a mini-boss is a bit ridiculous when you think about bosses like Ambulas who are easier than a prosecutor that you don't have the damage type for...I could definitely see something like a single hyena, or maybe even more like Raptor for a harder hitting enemy, being thrown into the mix with regular mobs making things pretty interesting

[YoshiPendragon]

I was under the impression that a miniboss would be shorter than a boss battle. Most of the 'non-epic' bosses take about 1 min to kill max (everyone besides lephantis/hek and maaaaybe krill).

 

I would hope this was more of a 30 second fight that went on during the round, with other spawns taking place. Like a single hyena, or a phorid.

 

If it were a 5-10 min boss fight, that's a lot more boss than ppl are bargaining for to just pop up randomly. I'd expect a lot of 'abort missions' if you randomly spring a 5m fight on ppl who aren't looking for it.

 

The current bosses are way too easy, no skill involved and use cheap mechanics to force danger instead of presenting real threat. Part of this brainstorming about mini-bosses is to reinvent the way boss battles work so that perhaps DE will evolve the current boss mechanics into a true boss fight.

 

This is an example of a great boss fight that takes smarts: