Jump to content
Dante Unbound: Share Bug Reports and Feedback Here! ×

Endless Defense And Survival Mini-Bosses


YoshiPendragon
 Share

Recommended Posts

You're missing the point here. This isn't about dramatically altering the current flow of Endless Defense or Survival, it is about incorporating a random encounter to throw people off their game when they least expect it.

 

DE just needs to balance leaders into a good place, that's what the leaders are for. And tweaking the leader's spawn rate in Survival, and Defense, would help.

 

 

I want to see minibosses as Defense/Survival heavy assault units that are there to stop you. The number of reward drops you get from Survival (and hopefully stacking in defense soon) is already broken, and at a very high level, compared to the other missions with one possible reward drop per attempt.

 

I see minibosses as a way to average out the quantity of rewards you get from an endless gametype, closer to the quantity you get from  "single use" mission types. Sure, kill one and get your tier 3 reward, think you can kill 2 more higher level ones before the next reward? What about 3 minibosses per extra reward? Oh, and the minibosses scale even quicker than the random stuff you are fighting.

Edited by KrazyKrl
Link to comment
Share on other sites

DE just needs to balance leaders into a good place, that's what the leaders are for. And tweaking the leader's spawn rate in Survival, and Defense, would help.

 

 

I want to see minibosses as Defense/Survival heavy assault units that are there to stop you. The number of reward drops you get from Survival (and hopefully stacking in defense soon) is already broken, and at a very high level, compared to the other missions with one possible reward drop per attempt.

 

I see minibosses as a way to average out the quantity of rewards you get from an endless gametype, closer to the quantity you get from  "single use" mission types. Sure, kill one and get your tier 3 reward, think you can kill 2 more higher level ones before the next reward? What about 3 minibosses per extra reward? Oh, and the minibosses scale even quicker than the random stuff you are fighting.

 

You're still dramatically changing the way Endless Defense works, and I doubt many people will be on board with that. This idea is only to add a small addition to what is already in place. Also what you're saying makes no sense about the rewards. A single use mission seldom yields more than one reward. Endless Defense (soon) and Survival yield multiple rewards and sometimes every one of them could be great. I've been able to acquire a full Mag Prime loadout in two Survival runs in addition to weapon parts and blueprints. I've ran T3 Exterminate a couple dozen times in a row only to have a forma blueprint drop every time. We don't need more parts drops on these mission types, we just need a random encounter with a chance to get a nice mod and a little action in the process.

 

 

On a side note, a fun type of boss to fight would be like Psycho Mantis from Metal Gear Solid. Having a mini-boss that comes in and messes with you by using invisibility and a movement/ability shuffler would be hilarious and a HUGE challenge.

 

Edited by DoctorYoshi
Link to comment
Share on other sites

DE just needs to balance leaders into a good place, that's what the leaders are for. And tweaking the leader's spawn rate in Survival, and Defense, would help.

 

 

I want to see minibosses as Defense/Survival heavy assault units that are there to stop you. The number of reward drops you get from Survival (and hopefully stacking in defense soon) is already broken, and at a very high level, compared to the other missions with one possible reward drop per attempt.

 

I see minibosses as a way to average out the quantity of rewards you get from an endless gametype, closer to the quantity you get from  "single use" mission types. Sure, kill one and get your tier 3 reward, think you can kill 2 more higher level ones before the next reward? What about 3 minibosses per extra reward? Oh, and the minibosses scale even quicker than the random stuff you are fighting.

 

RE: miniboss types/power: this is more like what I was imagining as well.

 

like leader type units that have some addl mechanic which makes them require more than a press of 4 or a shot in the face to kill. EX: weakspot on back, or only vulnerable after using their power, or must be knocked down before being damage etc.

 

Also the normal spawns would continue. The entire fight might last 20-40 seconds on avg.

 

RE: awards: survival (and "soon" def) already give many more chances at rewards. I don't think that's a problem that needs solving.

 

Minibosses are needed for challenge spikes IMO. They could also appear in regular missions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You're still dramatically changing the way Endless Defense works, and I doubt many people will be on board with that. This idea is only to add a small addition to what is already in place. Also what you're saying makes no sense about the rewards. A single use mission seldom yields more than one reward. Endless Defense (soon) and Survival yield multiple rewards and sometimes every one of them could be great. I've been able to acquire a full Mag Prime loadout in two Survival runs in addition to weapon parts and blueprints. I've ran T3 Exterminate a couple dozen times in a row only to have a forma blueprint drop every time. We don't need more parts drops on these mission types, we just need a random encounter with a chance to get a nice mod and a little action in the process.

 

 

On a side note, a fun type of boss to fight would be like Psycho Mantis from Metal Gear Solid. Having a mini-boss that comes in and messes with you by using invisibility and a movement/ability shuffler would be hilarious and a HUGE challenge.

 

 

Leaders are already the droid you are looking for though. And could be buffed and reworked significantly for Defense/Survival missions.

 

The quantity of rewards you get in endless gametypes is utterly absurd, and the drop table balancing is a symptom of it. Every mission should be about the same for the quantity of drops you can get from just some random PuG on the starmap. If you really want more rewards, you need to get some elite players together for it. Getting tier 3 level rewards twice in a mission should be as difficult as it is rewarding, you've essentially done it twice in one sitting.

Edited by KrazyKrl
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Leaders are already the droid you are looking for though. And could be buffed and reworked significantly for Defense/Survival missions.

 

The quantity of rewards you get in endless gametypes is utterly absurd, and the drop table balancing is a symptom of it. Every mission should be about the same for the quantity of drops you can get from just some random PuG on the starmap. If you really want more rewards, you need to get some elite players together for it. Getting tier 3 level rewards twice in a mission should be as difficult as it is rewarding, you've essentially done it twice in one sitting.

 

I get what you're saying now. Let me reiterate incase others were as confused as I was.

 

Leaders are no longer simple elemental versions of existing mobs with more HP, you want them buffed up to where they will basically be like the Harvester/Grustrag Three (except a little softer maybe) so that you need to turn your focus to them immediately for the sake of the objective. You also want the drop tables that are in place for Defense and Survival to be split up so that some of the rewards are now divied amongst these elites, leaving less in the tables for wave/checkpoint rewards. I can get behind all of this, but I would still like to see legitimate mini-bosses with a spawn chance immediately after making the decision to leave or stay. Having a mini-boss fight that lasts a few minutes will serve as an effective refresher to break up the non-stop slaughter and mindless "4" spam. Slow down, think, strategize, bring down the big-baddie, then go back to your grind.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The current bosses are way too easy, no skill involved and use cheap mechanics to force danger instead of presenting real threat. Part of this brainstorming about mini-bosses is to reinvent the way boss battles work so that perhaps DE will evolve the current boss mechanics into a true boss fight.

 

This is an example of a great boss fight that takes smarts:

 

So your intention is to add full boss fights at random to defense? Because Psycho Mantis WAY past mini-boss and more on to a full boss fight... and throwing those at random into a already tough as is mission is kind of out of the way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I get what you're saying now. Let me reiterate incase others were as confused as I was.

 

Leaders are no longer simple elemental versions of existing mobs with more HP, you want them buffed up to where they will basically be like the Harvester/Grustrag Three (except a little softer maybe) so that you need to turn your focus to them immediately for the sake of the objective. You also want the drop tables that are in place for Defense and Survival to be split up so that some of the rewards are now divied amongst these elites, leaving less in the tables for wave/checkpoint rewards. I can get behind all of this, but I would still like to see legitimate mini-bosses with a spawn chance immediately after making the decision to leave or stay. Having a mini-boss fight that lasts a few minutes will serve as an effective refresher to break up the non-stop slaughter and mindless "4" spam. Slow down, think, strategize, bring down the big-baddie, then go back to your grind.

 

Changing the minibosses to have an alert before the conclusion of the rewards screen would work. As long as the miniboss spawns soon in the next wave, or before it in a bonus round(har). That way, you can still easily get your rewards, but if you want more than the standard tier 3 drop; you need to prove that you're a very real threat, and the faction should send even more reinforcements.

 

Boss Alert -> Extract? -> Boss spawn; would also remove some of the risk of losing drops if you don't succeed in killing the boss, because you already claimed your tier 3 reward.

 

But, you could just move them to wave 11/minute15 to "earn" your first tier 3 drop. Relegating them to "beyond t3" might close some of the work designing the miniboss content. Especially if the first incarnation miniboss is only a teaser for a more buffed version later in the mission, maybe even unlocking more abilities as the mission progresses.

 

 

So your intention is to add full boss fights at random to defense? Because Psycho Mantis WAY past mini-boss and more on to a full boss fight... and throwing those at random into a already tough as is mission is kind of out of the way.

 

Mechanics wise I think is what he means, not lengthwise.

 

Edited by KrazyKrl
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So your intention is to add full boss fights at random to defense? Because Psycho Mantis WAY past mini-boss and more on to a full boss fight... and throwing those at random into a already tough as is mission is kind of out of the way.

 

The mini-bosses will not always be nearly that tough. The difficulties are intended to scale with how far you proceed. Our bosses right now are a joke, and I don't want the mini-bosses to be scaled based on their comparison. If we come up with some great mini-boss ideas that are challenging, it will encourage a second look at the current bosses to bring them to the level they need to be at.

 

Here is a new example of how the RNG could work on the mini-boss encounters:

 

jaGVQgv.png

 

This could happen at the end of the set of 5 waves, but I really like the idea of it happening randomly after choosing to stay as it really puts you under more pressure when deciding if you want to settle or chance going further. With the increasing chances, it gets really tense in higher levels as eventually you will have a really hard fight on your hands every time. My thoughts are...

 

Normal - Beefed up "Leader" as described by KrazyKrl. Challenging and takes teamwork to bring down, but shouldn't make you break a sweat or drain your ammunition.

 

Advanced - A larger, more aggravated version of the normal mini-boss with more frequent outburst attacks, larger and harder hitting AoE abilities, and a few debuffs to throw our way.

 

Nightmare - A random assortment of the worst things you would want to encounter. Invisibility, power-drain aura, dispell, teleportation, massive health pool, stuns/roots, movement key and ability shuffling, screen effects, projective hallucinations, etc etc. Only a few would be used at a time, but mixed up every encounter to keep it fresh.

 

(Abilities explained below)

 

Invisibility - Same as Loki's ability to cloak mini-boss

Power-drain Aura - Energy bleeds out like NM mode when in proximity to mini-boss

Dispell - Knocks off Iron Skin, Blessing, Link, Undertow, Absorb, various debuffs, etc

Teleportation - Can repeatedly teleport around battlefield to and from targets

Massive HP -  self explanatory

Stuns/roots - Can completely immobilize target or just bolt them to their current position

Movement key/ability swapping - Randomly shuffles ASDW and 1234 for a short period of time

Screen effects - Causes screen flickering, color/brightness alterations, shaking, spinning, etc

Projective hallucinations - Can create hallucinations of enemies around target, disguise self as ally

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Screwing with the controls is kind of iffy. Generally if you have something like that, you'd set things up to allow more lee-way for a player to figure what is doing what now...  Having that on a boss with random generated abilities, could result in the dude scrambling your controls and then promptly leaving you in a instadeath mine field, so to speak.

 

Messing with the HUD is bad enough, spinning the screen and making it flash is not only irritating, but could possibly be damaging to a person as well, should stay away from those. 
 

AS for the Massive HP, I thought we were sstaying away from the bulletsponge thing?

 

Everything else seems fine

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Screwing with the controls is kind of iffy. Generally if you have something like that, you'd set things up to allow more lee-way for a player to figure what is doing what now...  Having that on a boss with random generated abilities, could result in the dude scrambling your controls and then promptly leaving you in a instadeath mine field, so to speak.

 

Messing with the HUD is bad enough, spinning the screen and making it flash is not only irritating, but could possibly be damaging to a person as well, should stay away from those. 

 

AS for the Massive HP, I thought we were sstaying away from the bulletsponge thing?

 

Everything else seems fine

 

The key-swapping would only last a few seconds at a time, not a full fight. Just to kind of throw you off guard. Screen effects already get rather trippy so we aren't venturing into new territory there. Ever been flashbanged by Alad V? Or end up being the unfortunate victim of a teammate using a stug? The larger health pool is to keep people from one-shotting the mini-boss. Armor scaling is usually the issue with bullet-sponge bosses. This goes back to soft-spot tactics being used in conjunction with big health pools. Torso and non-critical shots will only slowly wittle away health, but well-placed headshots and soft fleshy areas will net some large chunks of damage and guarantee crits. Aim well with good weapons and you can bring it down in a couple of clips. Spray 'n pray and you'll likely wear down your ammo reserve pretty quickly before dropping them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The key-swapping would only last a few seconds at a time, not a full fight. Just to kind of throw you off guard. Screen effects already get rather trippy so we aren't venturing into new territory there. Ever been flashbanged by Alad V? Or end up being the unfortunate victim of a teammate using a stug? The larger health pool is to keep people from one-shotting the mini-boss. Armor scaling is usually the issue with bullet-sponge bosses. This goes back to soft-spot tactics being used in conjunction with big health pools. Torso and non-critical shots will only slowly wittle away health, but well-placed headshots and soft fleshy areas will net some large chunks of damage and guarantee crits. Aim well with good weapons and you can bring it down in a couple of clips. Spray 'n pray and you'll likely wear down your ammo reserve pretty quickly before dropping them.

Other tactics needed:  (boss means both regular bosses and regular bosses regardless of where they are)

- The boss needs to try to dodge. 

- The boss needs to try to chase after and/or pin down players if their armament is close-mid range.  (Ex Vor, Jackal)

- The boss needs to try to stay a good distance from players, utilize high ground, utilize cover, and have underling mobs try to slow you down and keep you from getting close if their armament is long-range.  (Ex Nef Anyo)

- The boss needs to have limited ammo for weapons other than melee. 

- The boss needs to prioritize targets based on they type of boss. 

    X Strategic bosses (Corpus) should target the weakest enemies first, then if allies try to aid a fallen ally, the boss and/or their underlings should lay down heavy suppressive fire on the area.

    X Tactical bosses (Grineer) should target the strongest enemies first, putting all their firepower into stopping the big guns.

    X Hive-mind bosses (Infested and Corrupted)  Should target the most densely-grouped enemies first, and the weakest enemies second. 

-  Bosses need a wider variety of powers including "locking" attacks on players, which require allies to intervene in to free the player / keep said player from dying.  A good example of this is in the Xemnas fight in Kingdom Hearts 2. 

-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPBMQmHxy8c   (Go to 3:45 for the bind attack)

... Generally speaking, the final Xemnas fight in KH2 is one of the better examples of what a good boss fight should be like, in my opinion. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The mini-bosses will not always be nearly that tough. The difficulties are intended to scale with how far you proceed. Our bosses right now are a joke, and I don't want the mini-bosses to be scaled based on their comparison. If we come up with some great mini-boss ideas that are challenging, it will encourage a second look at the current bosses to bring them to the level they need to be at.

 

Here is a new example of how the RNG could work on the mini-boss encounters:

 

jaGVQgv.png

 

This could happen at the end of the set of 5 waves, but I really like the idea of it happening randomly after choosing to stay as it really puts you under more pressure when deciding if you want to settle or chance going further. With the increasing chances, it gets really tense in higher levels as eventually you will have a really hard fight on your hands every time. My thoughts are...

 

Normal - Beefed up "Leader" as described by KrazyKrl. Challenging and takes teamwork to bring down, but shouldn't make you break a sweat or drain your ammunition.

 

Advanced - A larger, more aggravated version of the normal mini-boss with more frequent outburst attacks, larger and harder hitting AoE abilities, and a few debuffs to throw our way.

 

Nightmare - A random assortment of the worst things you would want to encounter. Invisibility, power-drain aura, dispell, teleportation, massive health pool, stuns/roots, movement key and ability shuffling, screen effects, projective hallucinations, etc etc. Only a few would be used at a time, but mixed up every encounter to keep it fresh.

 

(Abilities explained below)

 

Invisibility - Same as Loki's ability to cloak mini-boss

Power-drain Aura - Energy bleeds out like NM mode when in proximity to mini-boss

Dispell - Knocks off Iron Skin, Blessing, Link, Undertow, Absorb, various debuffs, etc

Teleportation - Can repeatedly teleport around battlefield to and from targets

Massive HP -  self explanatory

Stuns/roots - Can completely immobilize target or just bolt them to their current position

Movement key/ability swapping - Randomly shuffles ASDW and 1234 for a short period of time

Screen effects - Causes screen flickering, color/brightness alterations, shaking, spinning, etc

Projective hallucinations - Can create hallucinations of enemies around target, disguise self as ally

 

I like this, mostly.

 

The actual abilities would need very obvious telegraphing, bc warframe is kinda 1 hit death, esp at higher levels.

 

EX: movement key swap, stun, root, screen spin = death when there are other enemies anywhere near you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Evariskitsune has some great ideas that definitely need to be incorporated into the game. The AI of a boss is a major factor in gameplay and quite frankly all of our current bosses are lacking in this regard. The most intelligent fight in the game is without a doubt Alad V since he and Zanuka do attempt to retreat and cover each other. The rest of the bosses just tend to stand still and have a shooting match with us.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Evariskitsune has some great ideas that definitely need to be incorporated into the game. The AI of a boss is a major factor in gameplay and quite frankly all of our current bosses are lacking in this regard. The most intelligent fight in the game is without a doubt Alad V since he and Zanuka do attempt to retreat and cover each other. The rest of the bosses just tend to stand still and have a shooting match with us.

yeah, AI needs a fairly strong revamp....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You're missing the point here. This isn't about dramatically altering the current flow of Endless Defense or Survival, it is about incorporating a random encounter to throw people off their game when they least expect it.

 

basically a break in the tedium, esp for long games.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

you want to change up the tactics?

 

then adding a mini boss, who will die by shooting it and using warframe powers against it, is not going to change the tactics of endless defense/survival.

 

this is just adding something new to shoot at. nothing more. it'll liven things up and doesn't sound terrible...but I thought that that was what the eximus characters were?

 

....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

you want to change up the tactics?

 

then adding a mini boss, who will die by shooting it and using warframe powers against it, is not going to change the tactics of endless defense/survival.

 

this is just adding something new to shoot at. nothing more. it'll liven things up and doesn't sound terrible...but I thought that that was what the eximus characters were?

 

....

the idea is making it not only a bullet sponge, but make it hard to kill unless you shoot at weak points, and give it proper boss type AI instead of act like every other mob.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

you want to change up the tactics?

 

then adding a mini boss, who will die by shooting it and using warframe powers against it, is not going to change the tactics of endless defense/survival.

 

this is just adding something new to shoot at. nothing more. it'll liven things up and doesn't sound terrible...but I thought that that was what the eximus characters were?

 

....

 

Strategizing against a horde and strategizing against a difficult single boss target are two very different situations. You go from quick-mass kills to a well thought out precision based battle.

 

the idea is making it not only a bullet sponge, but make it hard to kill unless you shoot at weak points, and give it proper boss type AI instead of act like every other mob.  

 

Exactly. This isn't some beefed up Eximus, this is what you'd expect from a typical boss fight. As I've stated previously, our boss fights now are way underpar and should not be used as a comparison to the type of quality we need in a boss. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So maybe as a temporary solution to mess up the monotony of defense and survival add in mini-bosses that are scaling versions of a hyena or other tougher enemy type where they're basically a beefed up Eximus and then as they make the boss fights actual boss fights then buff up the mini-bosses a bit. Just a thought.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So maybe as a temporary solution to mess up the monotony of defense and survival add in mini-bosses that are scaling versions of a hyena or other tougher enemy type where they're basically a beefed up Eximus and then as they make the boss fights actual boss fights then buff up the mini-bosses a bit. Just a thought.

While they'd be a half-decent stand in, my personal opinion is that it waits until the proper mini-bosses are done.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While they'd be a half-decent stand in, my personal opinion is that it waits until the proper mini-bosses are done.

 

Agreed. Maybe we should start a Player Concept topic on "How to build a better Boss" and go indepth on boss mechanics and AI, Warframe-friendly boss abilities, boss map layout, etc etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Agreed. Maybe we should start a Player Concept topic on "How to build a better Boss" and go indepth on boss mechanics and AI, Warframe-friendly boss abilities, boss map layout, etc etc.

Yeah I think we should do a fan project on how to build a better boss.

Edited by Evariskitsune
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...