Wtf Is "endgame"?

[SolidSp33d]

End game is a term from MMORPG's with crappy gameplay, where they can't make content as fast as people consume it so they need to give you something to go do while you wait for the next expansion or update.

 

The word people should be using is REPLAY VALUE.

 

We need things added to the game that make it more fun to play over again, even with few or no additional rewards, or a long 'grind' towards additional rewards. The problem isn't low drop rates or large amounts of stuff needed. The problem is that all people want to do is find stuff, and aren't interested in just playing for the sake of playing. To get to that magical place where we have REPLAY VALUE, we need to nerf all the skills that turn the game into standing around / easymode, and we need variety in where things can be found or progress can be made, instead of being locked into one mission type for any hope at a drop we want.

 

...um no. End Game IS supposed to be replay value in the mist of end level progression.

 

I don't think I've seen a single person actually say what endgame is. (Edit: nope looks like MDLROz gets it)

 

ITS THE CONTENT AT LEVEL CAP.

The raids, the max level PvP, the shenanigans you can't do elsewhere.

 

After the leveling experience or inital progression through the man map or whatever is over what is there to do?

That is endgame.

 

Also people wanting to find stuff doesn't mean they aren't interested in playing. Try to ignore the few goofs on the forums. You obviously want to find new things in a loot game. Why? To be more awesome and tackle more content. Veteran players are waiting their asses off for the new content. The game should be fun anyway, and re-playability should be spread across the board. But endgame stuff should be REEEALLY replayable. Really challenging. Sill involve progression of your characters (Focus). And by the time you finish the host of content (that can be finished. Things like PvP in games obviously don't have that issue) there should be more coming. Or even better sometimes, an expansion to the game.

 

The devs working on Wildstar, Carbine, were pretty right in starting to call it Elder Game rather than End Game.

Edited April 28, 2014 by SolidSp33d

[UncommonUnicorn]

A delusion some people seem to have.

[SolidSp33d]

I don't know either.

Just that a lot of people demand it.

Don't know if I even want an endgame. No... I don't think I want it.

 

-_- You probably do.

[MDRLOz]

I don't think I've seen a single person actually say what endgame is. (Edit: nope looks like MDLROz gets it)

WOO!

Some one else gets it. 

 

*Party Time* 

[(PSN)fingernageldreck]

are you mastery rank 16?

 

didnt think so, you havent beaten the game

What a stupid response... What has endgame to do with mastery rank 16?

[Zkorp]

Yes that's strange trend... Especially transposed to warframe because eventually you'll always get the mods, you can craft weapons and frames etc... Player farm like mad, don't get the mods the first day after being put ingame they already post about the RNG wall blablabla...

[Endermaan]

forum is the endgame

[SolidSp33d]

WOO!

Some one else gets it. 

 

*Party Time* 

 

 

 

What a stupid response... What has endgame to do with mastery rank 16?

 

Nothing at all.

Mastery Rank doesn't mean anything atm. When we have Focus and another way of earning Mastery Points then we could start to seriously look at it in relation to eldar game. (yeah I'm just going to start calling it that now.)

[-XeqtR]

End game in my opinion is whatever you make it. A lot of people, including myself, see it as going far on a defense or survival, but really it doesn't even have to be that. Your end game can be challenging yourself to do whatever. The purpose of going onto end game is because you already have full forma frames and weapons and now that you've completely loaded yourself out you want to put it to the test (why else work so hard to perfect your loadout?). What better way than to challenge yourself.

 

The reason people choose defense and survival as a means for this is that the regular content (IE: Bosses, Nightmares, or just regular missions alone) isn't challenging enough. This is because those runs are all about finishing as fast as possible rather than go as long as possible.

 

People can create their own end game because challenging yourself is fun. Whether it be as an above poster mentioned seeing how far you can solo something with an uncommon frame, or coordinating with a team of four to see how far you can go. Or helping lower level players blaze through missions. When there's nothing left to do, all you can do is make your own fun. So please stop bashing on what people call end game and not, because end game is really anything you do once you're to the point of max gear.

[Psycho1848]

When DE talks about Endgame it means...

 

All different kinds of making your Equipment better like the Modssystem or the "Focus" System (still in processing) are Complete.

All Game Modes and Types are Complete (includes Mission like Hi-Jack and things like Dark Sectors)

or simple: All Standart Components of the Game are finished and work.

 

but means not that...

 

there will be no new Warframes, Weapons, Events, Solar Maps, Single Planets, Fractions, Enemystypes or Ressources.

 

Endgame is just that there complete the Basic Game, a Version that is ready to Release and finished the Beta status. Which maybe get some new DLC´s one time.

 

Thats my definition believe me or not

 

Psycho Over & Out

Edited April 28, 2014 by Psycho1848

[CatPhoenix]

Endgame is like unicorns, once you have collected everything, it does not exist

Play the game and have fun.  If you're not having fun shooting people with friends, then wait for an update some Wednesday and try again or play something else.

[Zhoyzu]

This is still not end game.

When you hit 16, does a message pop up saying you beat the game?

There. Is. No. End. Game.

that is where you are wrong.

 

The end of the game is where i choose to stop playing and caring. once youve mastered everything there is little else to do so ive hit the end of my game.

 

Pokemon has a similar endgame.

 

Catch them all

or

just beat all the gyms.

 

you can do both but either will suffice as having beat the game. Your initial quest in the pokemon games is to fill out your pokedex.

well in warframe your goal is to master S#&$ and fill out your codex.

[LanCeAlot]

If forum not enuff...
google+

[the1Blind]

End game is a term from MMORPG's with crappy gameplay, where they can't make content as fast as people consume it so they need to give you something to go do while you wait for the next expansion or update.

 

The word people should be using is REPLAY VALUE.

 

We need things added to the game that make it more fun to play over again, even with few or no additional rewards, or a long 'grind' towards additional rewards. The problem isn't low drop rates or large amounts of stuff needed. The problem is that all people want to do is find stuff, and aren't interested in just playing for the sake of playing. To get to that magical place where we have REPLAY VALUE, we need to nerf all the skills that turn the game into standing around / easymode, and we need variety in where things can be found or progress can be made, instead of being locked into one mission type for any hope at a drop we want.

+1

Just one thing to add: warframes and weapons are NOT content.

[(PSN)fingernageldreck]

that is where you are wrong.

 

The end of the game is where i choose to stop playing and caring. once youve mastered everything there is little else to do so ive hit the end of my game.

 

Pokemon has a similar endgame.

 

Catch them all

or

just beat all the gyms.

 

you can do both but either will suffice as having beat the game. Your initial quest in the pokemon games is to fill out your pokedex.

well in warframe your goal is to master S#&$ and fill out your codex.

The "end of your game" and the "endgame content" of a mmo are two different things. Another stupid post from you...

You should spend less time in pokemon, you doesnt seem to profit from it if you ask me.

[ZWarhammer]

Mastery rank 30 is the endgame. I have a dream that it will once exist in a galaxy far beyond our current capabilities! where our current gear is nothing but old dusty machinery! a place with gruesome difficulty, warframes that can bend their surroundings by sheer will! Where there are enemies and bosses who take immense amount of teamwork and trust in one another to vanquish!

Buuut.. right now.. have fun farming orokin cells e.e

Edited April 28, 2014 by ZWarhammer

[VKhaun]

...um no. End Game IS supposed to be replay value in the mist of end level progression.

 

I don't think I've seen a single person actually say what endgame is. (Edit: nope looks like MDLROz gets it)

 

ITS THE CONTENT AT LEVEL CAP.

The raids, the max level PvP, the shenanigans you can't do elsewhere.

 

After the leveling experience or inital progression through the man map or whatever is over what is there to do?

That is endgame.

 

Also people wanting to find stuff doesn't mean they aren't interested in playing. Try to ignore the few goofs on the forums. You obviously want to find new things in a loot game. Why? To be more awesome and tackle more content. Veteran players are waiting their asses off for the new content. The game should be fun anyway, and re-playability should be spread across the board. But endgame stuff should be REEEALLY replayable. Really challenging. Sill involve progression of your characters (Focus). And by the time you finish the host of content (that can be finished. Things like PvP in games obviously don't have that issue) there should be more coming. Or even better sometimes, an expansion to the game.

 

The devs working on Wildstar, Carbine, were pretty right in starting to call it Elder Game rather than End Game.

 

Sorry, but frankly I think you're getting conned.

 

This notion that bad boring quests are an 'initial progression' and you should be getting loot to smash stupid content faster is something I will never accept. I want to get on a game and start having fun. But this is an argument I don't have to have because DE already gets it. All the mission types are available from the word go and good rare loot can be found all over the place.

 

If DE puts in raids for people in all rank 30 gear with max mods fine, but I also want a raid on Mercury and Venus and Earth. There's no reason to put something special at the end of the game just for people in max gear. It's an arbitrary restriction. If you want to do it and it's fun, then THAT should be the core game play, not the carrot at the end of the stick for jackasses to chase while doing something less fun.

 

If people choose to farm XP by sitting and staring at a Vortex or sitting in an invincible Snowglobe wondering why they don't have emotes then the abilities are what make the game boring and need to be fixed, not that we need END GAME to make them excited about being bored.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wildstar is a bad example because they sound like they're actually trying to make common combat fun and compelling, and they're just following the MMORPG formula from there to be familiar to players. I will be buying and trying Wildstar myself, probably, depending on what my friend says.

[Xylia]

In many MMORPGs, your first goal is to get Max Level.

 

When you get Max Level, the only other thing you can do to progress, is to get better gear. Most MMORPGs are made on the idea that Level-Cap is going to be where the core playerbase is going to be and where everybody is striving to get, so that's where they put most of the content, and that's when you spend most of your energy/time/resources trying to acquire gear.

 

There's not much sense (in most games) of putting lots of effort into gear while you're still leveling up -- you'll just be replacing said gear in a few levelups anyways.

 

Well, as everybody knows, Warframe ain't quite like that. HOWEVER, once you get up to a decent Mastery Rank to where you can use any weapon in the game, and once you've got all (or most) of the Warframes maxed out, forma'd the way you want them, etc...

 

Then what do you do?

 

You need something to do that allows you to continue to progress your game. This is why they're working on Focus -- when you're max level, you are "wasting" XP by using Lv30 stuff. They want to fix this, to give you something to do with all of that XP. That way you have a reason to continue running missions, even if you have an armory full of Lv30 weapons and warframes and if you happen to be one of those players that has every current weapon and warframe sitting in your arsenal already.

[PhotriusPyrelus]

You need something to do that allows you to continue to progress your game.

Why?

[Xylia]

Why?

 

No Progression = No reason to play.

 

RPGs are designed around Progression, around the idea that you continue to make your character/group of characters/account better.

 

Single-player RPGs have an End, but MMORPGs are designed with no "End" in mind (because most of them are subscription-based or F2P). In both models, the longer the player plays = the more money the company makes.

[PhotriusPyrelus]

No Progression = No reason to play.

 

RPGs are designed around Progression, around the idea that you continue to make your character/group of characters/account better.

 

Single-player RPGs have an End, but MMORPGs are designed with no "End" in mind (because most of them are subscription-based or F2P). In both models, the longer the player plays = the more money the company makes.

If no progression = no reason to play, you've missed the point of games altogether.  They are (or should be) an end in themselves.  You should play because you enjoy the playing (which is hard to describe in contemporary games, because they've so hooked people such as yourself on this notion that reward reception is indistinguishable from gameplay).

 

Look to Chess (as I often do as an example of as near to a perfect game as humanity has devised).  What is the progression in Chess?  The answer is either that there is none, or that it is skill-development.  But skill development (and I mean this in terms of skill at playing the game, not in-game skills one obtains access to through playing) is present in any game, so I discount it (as do you, since you seem to believe there is no progression outside rewards).

 

RPGs are (or were, or should be) desgined around telling a story.  Character progression is a crude means to give some gameplay context to what otherwise would appear to be at best a "choose your own adventure" story, or at worst a marginally interactive movie.  Even MMORPGs are (or should be) about telling a (Never Ending) story, which is shaped (hopefully in large part, but rarely so) by its players.  However, as above, the compulsion generated by an eternal reward system is incredibly strong and so drives "gameplay" in order to addict people to the playing.  And so fun falls by the way side in favor of reward-stimulation masquerading as fun.

[Xylia]

Look to Chess (as I often do as an example of as near to a perfect game as humanity has devised).  What is the progression in Chess?  The answer is either that there is none, or that it is skill-development.  But skill development (and I mean this in terms of skill at playing the game, not in-game skills one obtains access to through playing) is present in any game, so I discount it (as do you, since you seem to believe there is no progression outside rewards).

 

Chess is a competitive game, where you play against a human opponent (or a computer programmed to act like one).

 

RPGs are (or were, or should be) desgined around telling a story.

 

Warframe, while it does have its bits of lore, doesn't have a whole lot of story. Some Other MMORPGs have what is known as an ExcusePlot. 

 

Character progression is a crude means to give some gameplay context to what otherwise would appear to be at best a "choose your own adventure" story, or at worst a marginally interactive movie.

 

Which is... exactly what poorly-designed MMOs tend to be: You do it once or twice for the cutscenes then stop playing until the next bit of cutscenes come out.

 

Even MMORPGs are (or should be) about telling a (Never Ending) story, which is shaped (hopefully in large part, but rarely so) by its players.

 

Indeed. However, the player needs, at the base level, some reason as to why they're doing all that stuff. Otherwise, they could just Youtube the cutscenes instead of paying whatever it takes to play said game. Progressing your character gives you a sense of accomplishment. Making your character more powerful gives you a sense of "getting somewhere".

 

Overcoming that difficult boss that requires that new gear you just got gives you a sense of achievement.

 

However, as above, the compulsion generated by an eternal reward system is incredibly strong and so drives "gameplay" in order to addict people to the playing.  And so fun falls by the way side in favor of reward-stimulation masquerading as fun.

 

Every person defines "Fun" in their own way. If it ain't fun for you, then don't do it. It is as simple as that. Some people LIKE hunting/working/grinding for better gear. Some people like making their character godly so that they can pull off impressive feats. WoW, for example, has many players who get the best gear possible, and then pull off crazy solos. I remember a couple months ago, a Warlock solo'd the First Boss of the current 10-man raid.

 

He alone did what it normally takes TEN people to do.

 

Some people love that stuff.

[Bakim0n0]

Look to Chess (as I often do as an example of as near to a perfect game as humanity has devised).  What is the progression in Chess?  The answer is either that there is none, or that it is skill-development.  But skill development (and I mean this in terms of skill at playing the game, not in-game skills one obtains access to through playing) is present in any game, so I discount it (as do you, since you seem to believe there is no progression outside rewards).

While true in a large way; the key factor in chess and similar games is the competition. The sense of achievement in defeating an (hopefully) intelligent opponent with relatively equal footing. You don't get that in warframe... You get near mindless aimbots that run on super predictable pathing and attack procedures where the difficulty really only comes from statistical manipulation of defense and damage. There are no real tactics, no real in depth strategies and no real challenge outside of the bullet sponge / insta death hurdles so there isn't really a wide gap to progress in terms of individual skill.

Now try suggesting anything even remotely resembling competition on the forum and see what a warm reception you get. I've been saying >since closed beta< this game desperately needs some form of real, meaningful competition and the rails are at least an attempt at that... even if they are really just more non-competitive boring brainless PvE bot battles loosely tossed at a system that feels like competition.

So lets look at Warframe seriously... It has it's core gameplay, which is fairly solid and the *only* reason I have toughed it out this long; and then is has neigh endless grind. The AI never gets terribly smarter, maybe some newer enemy types along the way that mix it up some, but they never use anything resembling any sort of tactics (and yes, I happily accept that this is a limitation of design) so there really isn't a significant skill ceiling to try to break... Most frames easily dispatch the overwhelming bulk of content with a single button press (usually 4) and there is all the trappings of a progression system without a real reason to progress outside of being able to go grind in areas with better bullet sponges. So early in the game you get this idea reinforced that the goal is to get a good loadout, and go play... but then what? You have a set of weapons you really enjoy, you got it tuned out to be a force of sheer destruction and then....?

No pvp

No competition

Boring AI

Almost zero story... you can STILL sum up the entire story of warframe on a bar napkin.

What does that leave? Grinding gear and leveling a bunch of weapons, the bulk of which are either another gun with slightly different stats or just are completely and utterly outclassed by another weapon and really the only reason to do anything with them is to grind mastery and dump it.

Some of you reference endgame like it's some kind of con game to trick players into thinking they are doing something.

The most successful games on the market all put a strong emphasis on stuff you do after maxing out your levels that you NEED to be at level cap to participate in.

Keep telling yourself that you can think like the local convenience store and wind up the next walmart.

[-Vondred-]

Chess is a competitive game, where you play against a human opponent (or a computer programmed to act like one).

Warframe, while it does have its bits of lore, doesn't have a whole lot of story. Some Other MMORPGs have what is known as an ExcusePlot.

Which is... exactly what poorly-designed MMOs tend to be: You do it once or twice for the cutscenes then stop playing until the next bit of cutscenes come out.

Indeed. However, the player needs, at the base level, some reason as to why they're doing all that stuff. Otherwise, they could just Youtube the cutscenes instead of paying whatever it takes to play said game. Progressing your character gives you a sense of accomplishment. Making your character more powerful gives you a sense of "getting somewhere".

Overcoming that difficult boss that requires that new gear you just got gives you a sense of achievement.

Every person defines "Fun" in their own way. If it ain't fun for you, then don't do it. It is as simple as that. Some people LIKE hunting/working/grinding for better gear. Some people like making their character godly so that they can pull off impressive feats. WoW, for example, has many players who get the best gear possible, and then pull off crazy solos. I remember a couple months ago, a Warlock solo'd the First Boss of the current 10-man raid.

He alone did what it normally takes TEN people to do.

Some people love that stuff.

This is where you are both wrong. This is a tpsmmo. With. . Progression. Not the end game kind either Edited April 29, 2014 by Vondredd

[Zkorp]

in the MMO world the xp progression is not the replay value, because the "real" game begin when you reach the cap. It's where you get sutff for real, a "permanent" stuff... untill the next expansion anyway.... ( I truly hate this "expansion" wipe about stuff, this artificial wipe is utterly stupid but it's the way, and it work nethertheless in the traditionnal MMORPG worlds)

 

It's not the problem here : a rank 0 frame can be in a 3 hour survival etc... There'snt any artificial wall to prevent player to enter a place, there's no "level cap". There can't be any real endgame in WF, just really hard content and then another really hard content etc...