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Glorious Battle And Victory In The Name Of Your Clan [Dark Sector Megathread]

Oizen

By Oizen,
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Emeere

Emeere

Posted
Posted

No, you haven't said anything about it. But since you made the argument that it has nothing to do with greed, I wanted to know your opinion on this notion that SoV supporters are greedy. Your post sufficiently answers that.

SoV is the defendant. Eclipse is the Aggressor.

They are competing in a system designed for exactly this sort of event to happen. 

This system is DESIGNED for conflict.

Neither side is being 'greedy' in the slightest

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OniDax

OniDax

Posted
Posted (edited)

Both are greedy in their own way, and that has been my point during this entire thread. I never once called Eclipse *not* greedy.

 

My point has always been "You can't call Eclipse greedy when you're greedy yourself".

 

Eclipse wants to move in and tax the rail. Yes, that's greed. That's the obvious part I left out, because... well, that's Obvious.

People supporting SoV want to keep all the money to themselves, so they demonize Eclipse and call them Greedy. The problem is, you can't call them greedy without admitting to your own greed, right?

 

What I have a problem with, is people supporting SoV making out like they are white knights when they very much aren't. They're saying SoV Supporters = White Knights, Eclipse and its supporters = demons.

 

Again, my only problem with your argument is that you assume that most or all SoV supporters 'just want to keep all the money to themselves'. You. Are. Wrong. I rarely play on Pluto, or any free rail. I just don't go there. But I most certainly support SoV because I don't like the virtual land grab Eclipse is making by trying to take two more nodes. There's nothing criminal or cheating that they're doing by it, I just think it's too much for one alliance, and I think that they are being greedy by doing so, although there's no crime against wanting yet another node. I think it's a clearly greedy action (but Eclipse members will argue against that till the end of time). But I think it's dishonest to call every SoV supporter greedy just so that you have an argument against them. Because, honestly, without that strawman argument, you have no charge against SoV supporters. You have no reason to be against them. Again, drop this false, dishonest, uninformed claim that SoV supporters are being greedy and simply want to keep all their credits.

 

And again, given that 100% of non-dark sector nodes allow you to keep all your 'monies', what is so wrong about having the ability to do so? Are all players who play on non-dark sector nodes greedy because they get to take in all of the credits they earn? I'm not against taxes. I don't think 25% is necessary, and if players are willing to give up that much, then more power to them, but there's nothing wrong or greedy about me supporting a clan that doesn't tax.

Edited by AntoineFlemming
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Disinmas

Disinmas

Posted
Posted

Both are greedy in their own way, and that has been my point during this entire thread. I never once called Eclipse *not* greedy.

 

My point has always been "You can't call Eclipse greedy when you're greedy yourself".

 

Eclipse wants to move in and tax the rail. Yes, that's greed. That's the obvious part I left out, because... well, that's Obvious.

People supporting SoV want to keep all the money to themselves, so they demonize Eclipse and call them Greedy. The problem is, you can't call them greedy without admitting to your own greed, right?

 

What I have a problem with, is people supporting SoV making out like they are white knights when they very much aren't. They're saying SoV Supporters = White Knights, Eclipse and its supporters = demons.

 

I'm a greedy terrible white knight cause I support SoV huh? Sounds like you know nothing about me and are making assumptions because you disagree with what I and others have said.

 

I don't care about the credits, 5k credits is a measly amount that I could care less about as I can just sell some of the mods I get to make up the difference. There's one reason I'm standing for SoV: They haven't lied. They made a promise, they kept that promise, and until they go back on it they have my support.

 

Eclipse told us their rails would stay free from the get go, even used it as a "side with us" argument. I sided with them, at first just to prove that the conflict was stupid and to just let us play our DS because everyone was tossing up a free rail anyway. Then they went back on what they said, claiming they needed it to "fund battle pays", very obviously only giving us a minimal minimal portion in battle pay. 

 

I'm not saying Eclipse is "wrong" in attacking a node, I'm not saying I "hate them" for it or demonizing them for doing what the system was designed for. What I am saying is they've gone back on their promises, and because of that I will side against them from now until they give me a reason not to. 

 

TL;DR Version: I fight for what I feel is right, not the money. Don't say we're all greedy. 

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Xylia

Xylia

Posted
Posted
TL;DR Version: I fight for what I feel is right, not the money. Don't say we're all greedy.

 

Did I say All?

 

No, I didn't.

 

I specifically said (and I double-checked each time I typed it), "Many" players.

 

Not "All" players.

 

Many.

 

Please look that word up.

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fatpig84

fatpig84

Posted
Posted

I don't hate anyone, to be quite honest.  Read my other post, I enjoy this kind of dramatic atmosphere that Eclipse has created.

 

Despite that, you're offering 50k for a battle or two, to take away 5k~ per battle I do for eternity.  If I run even a mere ten times, you'll make up what you handed me, assuming I even manage to get into the 50k "bracket" of payouts.  If I use a credit booster, you're taking 10k, and this amount will quickly scale up to much higher than a measly 50-100k credits that you offer me.  So do I take out a loan of 100k for a payment of 1-2m back over time?  Or do I accept no pay and keep my regular pay check?

 

Yes Eclipse is doing the necessary to make Dark Sectors interesting.

Even it means being the big bad.

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OniDax

OniDax

Posted
Posted (edited)

I <---

did not characterize you and SoV supporters as "greedy free loaders." 

But it is interesting for you to state that when you also stated: "Eclipse are the only ones who are being greedy here. "

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/223502-sechura-eclipse-vs-shadows-of-vengeance/?view=findpost&p=2590514

And that is perfectly fine as it is your opinion but why can't Eclipse supporters call you & others "Greedy free loaders" if you can call Eclipse "greedy"?

 

I just pointed out how you said "Yeah, that time is now past."  to my "What about the time Sinai was taxed at 75% for members? It's not like members get all the benefits."  in which I interpreted along the lines of "Yeah that information is irrelevant because it is in the past and they don't charge that tax now" with the notion that I believe that you believe Eclipse only charges non-members substantially. Which of course, I could be wrong to interpret that statement as well.

 

Greed is most often used as a counter to contentment. Does that answer your question? Greed is wanting more than you already have. When an alliance has 1/3 of the dark sector nodes in the game, trying to take two more would constitute greedy. Just like a nation like Germany taking over its satellites can most certainly constitute greedy. What isn't greedy is for SoV and their supporters to be opposed to Eclipse's attack, or for them to support SoV's free tax rail, because they aren't wanting more than what they currently have. Just like it wasn't greedy for Poland to oppose Germany's aggression, because Poland wasn't wanting more than what they had.

 

Also, my issue isn't that Eclipse currently charges their members lower than they charge non-alliance players, nor that they charge higher on one node. It's that they already have plenty of nodes, they are challenging a free node, and most importantly, that SoV supporters opposed to them are being characterized as greedy and selfish by Eclipse supporters when there is nothing about SoV supporter's support or words or actions that can possibly be construed as greedy or selfish.

Edited by AntoineFlemming
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Xylia

Xylia

Posted
Posted
Again, my only problem with your argument is that you assume that most or all SoV supporters 'just want to keep all the money to themselves'. You. Are. Wrong. I rarely play on Pluto, or any free rail. I just don't go there. But I most certainly support SoV because I don't like the virtual land grab Eclipse is making by trying to take two more nodes. There's nothing criminal or cheating that they're doing by it, I just think it's too much for one alliance, and I think that they are being greedy by doing so, although there's no crime against wanting yet another node. I think it's a clearly greedy action (but Eclipse members will argue against that till the end of time). But I think it's dishonest to call every SoV supporter greedy just so that you have an argument against them. Because, honestly, without that strawman argument, you have no charge against SoV supporters. You have no reason to be against them. Again, drop this false, dishonest, uninformed claim that SoV supporters are being greedy and simply want to keep all their credits.

 

And again, given that 100% of non-dark sector nodes allow you to keep all your 'monies', what is so wrong about having the ability to do so? Are all players who play on non-dark sector nodes greedy because they get to take in all of the credits they earn? I'm not against taxes. I don't think 25% is necessary, and if players are willing to give up that much, then more power to them, but there's nothing wrong or greedy about me supporting a clan that doesn't tax.

 

Wow, you're going every which way with this, aren't you? Saying one thing, then half rebutting it, and then saying something else entirely.

 

1). Don't bring in Non-DS nodes into this: Non-DS nodes have nothing to do with this. Trying to compare Dark Sector to normal nodes is just silly.

2). I never said it was wrong to support SoV or any other 0% tax clan.

3). If you don't play on Pluto or any other free rail, then why are you even in this argument in the first place, then?

4). The only argument I've ever had against "SoV Supporters" is the ones who are demonizing Eclipse and calling them greedy while refusing to admit their own greed.

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SimplyEvil

SimplyEvil

Posted
Posted

Greed is most often used as a counter to contentment. Does that answer your question? Greed is wanting more than you already have. When an alliance has 1/3 of the dark sector nodes in the game, trying to take two more would constitute greedy. Just like a nation like Germany taking over its satellites can most certainly constitute greedy. What isn't greedy is for SoV and their supporters to be opposed to Eclipse's attack, or for them to support SoV's free tax rail, because they aren't wanting more than what they currently have. Just like it wasn't greedy for Poland to oppose Germany's aggression, because Poland wasn't wanting more than what they had.

 

If you go by that definition of greedy, then everyone is greedy. "Greed is wanting more than you already have." implies that say I own a 0% tax dark sector. I want to keep it that way. Some other guy wants my dark sector and wants to impose their own 0% tax. I am, by that definition, greedy because I "want to keep it despite another person wanting it and proposing 0% tax, but it is mine because I want to keep it out of either name or because I simply want to keep it." It is greedy of me to want to keep it because I want my freedom and name on it. It is greedy of that other person because they want their name on it and their freedom. Greed does not always apply to one side because the definition of greed, to me, depends on who is viewing it, with what are they viewing it with, and how are they viewing it.

It is all perspective as no one is wrong or right, but I believe it is wrong to say "You're greedy." and then say "Ohhh emmm geee. You can't call me greedy."

 

I still have no idea why you keep bringing up SoV and Eclipse situation to a "What did you spend on your Eclipse tax refund?" thread, and to a comment I made on another player's comment of member taxation. Ehh, your choice. 

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Darkjackal_2031

Darkjackal_2031

Posted
Posted (edited)

If eclipse gets the node, so be it. If SoV gets the node, again, so be it. All I really care about is my bonus xp. I couldn't really care less about their "unacceptable" credit tax rates. Credits are easy to obtain. As long as I don't have to contribute too many of my resources. I respect eclipse because they grasped the political and economic nature of the nodes faster than anyone else. Is this a reason to resent them? Yes, I can understand that. Is it a reason to hate them? No. Look, I hate to say it like this, but eclipse has tapped into the economic lifeblood of the game. Their roots have grown too deep to be disposed of now, which I don't think is a bad thing. They are here, and they are here to stay. There is no getting rid of them now, so just sit back, relax, and enjoy your bonus xp and resources.

Edited by Darkjackal_2031
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OniDax

OniDax

Posted
Posted (edited)

Wow, you're going every which way with this, aren't you? Saying one thing, then half rebutting it, and then saying something else entirely.

 

1). Don't bring in Non-DS nodes into this: Non-DS nodes have nothing to do with this. Trying to compare Dark Sector to normal nodes is just silly.

2). I never said it was wrong to support SoV or any other 0% tax clan.

3). If you don't play on Pluto or any other free rail, then why are you even in this argument in the first place, then?

4). The only argument I've ever had against "SoV Supporters" is the ones who are demonizing Eclipse and calling them greedy while refusing to admit their own greed.

 

1) Why not? Why is it wrong to support a free rail because the occupants are offering players the chance to keep all their earned credits (you've repeatedly called players wanting this 'greedy') when everywhere else they can keep all their earned credits? You are calling players greedy for wanting to do something they can do on all other rails.

 

2) By calling all SoV supporters selfish (not caring about SoV, the rail holders) and greedy (wanting to keep their credits), you are insinuating that all SoV supporters are wrong.

 

3) I support rails that offer free tax because there are players that benefit from them, and again, I don't like Eclipse supporters misjudging them for their support of SoV. I also don't support Eclipse taking more rails (is there something wrong about not supporting Eclipse?).

 

4) You at points say "I'm calling the players crying out against taxes greedy, because the only reason they're doing so is because they want to keep the whole shebang every mission", yet at other points say "People supporting SoV want to keep all the money to themselves, so they demonize Eclipse and call them Greedy. The problem is, you can't call them greedy without admitting to your own greed, right?" " I'm more 'attacking' the people who are claiming "for the greater good!" when what it boils down to is people supporting charity only because they benefit from it, not because they actually care about the people running the charity." Where is 'many' in that? Since when are SoV supporters automatically synonymous with those against taxes, and since when is not wanting taxes, and instead wanting no taxes like every non-dark sector node wrong? What's so wrong about not liking the taxing system as a whole? Again, I'm certainly not an anti-tax guy, but I don't think that those against taxes are greedy, and I don't think that wanting a no-tax system is greedy either. Those people just want the pre-dark sector status quo, where they don't have to be taxed for playing any node.

Edited by AntoineFlemming
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