Glorious Battle And Victory In The Name Of Your Clan [Dark Sector Megathread]

[KingTaro]

I'd suggest only making it possible to deploy 1 rail per alliance.

Also, once you lost a battle, you should no longer be able to deploy a rail in that node, untill you've run through all the other nodes first.

[AvengerGrim]

Take notes, other clans...

 

And thank you Shadows of Vengeance.

[2ply]

But here's the thing; sometimes popularity beats payment, no matter if said popularity is contributed via propaganda, or from just natural, majority oppinion.

 

You are right, a vocal minority if set on a crusade to spread poison to the general community has a great chance of making waves. This is exactly what happened, with the help of a collection of alliances and clans that had negative pre-dispositions...it was a succesful hate propaganda campaign. 

 

 

Weither you think that spreading the idea to pubs that taxes are bad or saying that the public is misunderstanding taxes is irrelevant. Because really; taxes aren't as bad as what people are making them out to be.

 

Exactly, thank you for making this statement...tributes aka taxes are not bad, they actually create boons for the public to profit rapidly. The hate propaganda machine created by the vocal minority we takled about earlier balooned into a large mob of people just going with the flow..no real idea of why they were doing something and if that was a good or bad thing...it was just the hype thing to do.

 

 

But, when you get right down to it: while taxes aren't bad, they sure as hell have alot more cons than they do pros, and that makes it easier for the public to understand. If you say "NO TAXES", that's an automatic green light in the head of the vast majority. So taxing clans are naturally at a disadvantage even without 'propaganda'

 

I would like to see a list of comparisons on the pro's and con's of TAX in Warframe. I really don't think this statement was made in good concious.

 

That's not to say no taxes don't have their downsides. If you're running upwards to 9 rails, you obviously can't afford no tax rates. I understand why Eclipse is using taxes in this case. 250k per rail in a worst case scenario is still alot if you multiply that by any number greater than 5.

 

 

 

This is spoken as if from a person who has never actually taxed or needed to provide battle pay.....The only true reason you TAX is so that you can afford battle pay...

 

250k per rail is nothing...when you consider the cost of 40K battle pay for 2000 runs...repeated 3 times over...not even a full rail's health even. This gets super expensive...but it all goes directly back to the public.

 

But again, that minority you speak of isn't so minor. Especially when they can take down an Eclipse rail. I understand that you believe that taxes are being shined in a harsh light, but you don't need to look at the issue in a logical standpoint.

 

The vocal minority started a fire...that fire spread to the majority...the majority is your common player that does NOT even use the Forums.

 

This vocal minority I speak of call there home HERE in these forums. To not approach the public with logical explanations of taxes and the reasons for them is to believe them to be all fools...disrespectful in my opinion.

 

The poisonous ones..the vocal minorty with an AXE to grind...those are the ones who would prefer we not actually look at logic...and bring such logic to light...because honestly...people might actually decide Eclipse is making logical steps to ensure a quality service for all.

 

 

You need to look at it from the public's stand point. Really, think about it for a moment; was it such a great idea to attack a clan that has been incredibly nice to said public, as well as being able to support their rail with 0% taxes?

 

 

Honestly would need proof of this "increibly nice" claims. I would argue that Eclipse has been incredibly NICE to the public, even when they turned against us...The publics standpoint is varied...some are for us, but many turned against us due to the propaganda machine that was created by those who wish us harm...who want to perpetuate lies, who just want revenge...

 

The general public will at times just go with the flow and follow the herd...zerg tactics were implimeneted...we've discussed what dis-information can do.

 

Eclipse may own many rails, but ironically that's also their problem. Too many rails, and you're going to have to fight against public, majority opinion of "taxes are bad", or try to shift the bad light away from taxes.

 

 

 

There shouldn't be a bad light on taxes in the first place, these are the seeds of that vocal minority at work, influencing the greater majority. 

 

I disagree that we have too many rails...who is to make this judgement? As long as we can defend them and offer a quality service...shouldn't be a problem.

 

The public would be helpful if they could see the true intention of Eclipse, and stop following this bandwagon of fear and hate.

 

And really, I was defending taxes in some past posts of mine. So don't take this as me white knighting for 0% taxes or anything. Just trying to say that the minority you're referring to, isn't so minor anymore. And you have to treat them like an actual threat now.

 

We would prefer not to look at the general public as a threat, that is just wrong. In reality I feel there are a lot of people out there that just hate eclipse...and have been spreading that hate to fresh minds...who are impressionable.

 

They have created a trend with their hate and discontent...and to that they have swayed many who would have probably came to a different conclusion had they been introduced to the concepts set in play by Eclipse...

 

Rather than the bandwagon approach...full of hate, lies, and rumor.

[Corrupted_Ertai]

I still say what I have been saying for the past 3 weeks. Double the build time and scale the cost (steeply) according to how many people in clan\alliance. If it costs 50-100k per person no matter who actually wants to build it or not then the rich guys in a 4000 Alliance who actually pay for these things will go broke in a month. Then we find out who really wants it.

 

The problem is that as a clan\alliance it costs basically nothing to build these things. Warlords from most of the older clans can reach into their own pocket and come out with half a dozen like it was nothing. That has to stop.

[Triburos]

-snip-

It's also largely being able to determine weither having more rails is worth it, or if having one rail is sufficent.

When you get right down to it; most people want a rail to be up purely for e-peen. But in rare cases, like in SoV's case (wanting to provide the best credit payout for Dark Sectors) or Eclipse's case (wanting to keep rails open as often as possible with battle pay), they're put up for reasons other than that, and for good reasons.

But, SoV is playing it safer by only using one rail, so that not only do they have the public advantage of 'no tax', but they also have enough credits to keep the rail going regardless. They have the best of both worlds, basically. They have a place on the star chart, and they're providing for the public.

Eclipse is more of the type of alliance / clan / group that want to be a bigger name in Warframe, and thus they take risks by fighting against the public opinion of "taxes r bad m'kay", as well as suffering higher repair costs. But, they've proven that they can indeed handle such a high frequency of rails, and have done a good job of it as well.

However, I would like to humbly request that Eclipse don't take over rails that are already well supported and loved by the community.

As someone who does not have any ill will towards Eclipse at all, I'd like to pose a request to them; if you truely like to support the community, please don't contradict yourself by harming a rail that is doing the same. just in a different manner. Because other than adding another solar rail to your collection, there's little point to it don't you think?

[Calayne]

-snip snip snippity snip-

 

Aw man. 2ply. Dude. Friend. 

 

You're a cool dude, most times, but I think you're feeling a little upset about the outcome of this battle. It's not Eclipse's fault. Don't take it personally. The victory of popularity isn't the end of your alliance, and the hateful sentiments won't spread that much. Everywhere else on the Solar System, many players who don't even come to the forums go for the battle pay. It's as simple as that.

 

Even if they do see the tax, people may play it anyways, on average. And if there's a conflict, then those where the threat is large enough get a battle pay where it attracts public attention. The forum is not the largest portion of the playerbase. The current people who supported SoV are unique to SoV. 

 

Seriously.

 

Don't over think it, friend. Keep calm, and move on. Do what you have to do. You have many rails, and have maintained it. Don't let one loss disrupt your.... 

 

Can I say it...?

 

Flow. 

 

*Ba dum tshh!*

 

But really, chill. Life goes on. Big clan like you gotta learn how to graciously take a hit, and bow out like a gent, and come out wiser than before.

 

It's also largely being able to determine weither having more rails is worth it, or if having one rail is sufficent.

When you get right down to it; most people want a rail to be up purely for e-peen. But in rare cases, like in SoV's case (wanting to provide the best credit payout for Dark Sectors) or Eclipse's case (wanting to keep rails open as often as possible with battle pay), they're put up for reasons other than that, and for good reasons.

But, SoV is playing it safer by only using one rail, so that not only do they have the public advantage of 'no tax', but they also have enough credits to keep the rail going regardless. They have the best of both worlds, basically. They have a place on the star chart, and they're providing for the public.

Eclipse is more of the type of alliance / clan / group that want to be a bigger name in Warframe, and thus they take risks by fighting against the public opinion of "taxes r bad m'kay", as well as suffering higher repair costs. But, they've proven that they can indeed handle such a high frequency of rails, and have done a good job of it as well.

However, I would like to humbly request that Eclipse don't take over rails that are already well supported and loved by the community.

As someone who does not have any ill will towards Eclipse at all, I'd like to pose a request to them; if you truely like to support the community, please don't contradict yourself by harming a rail that is doing the same. just in a different manner. Because other than adding another solar rail to your collection, there's little point to it don't you think?

 

Also, ditto on that.

 

Tax-free rails have the problem of not being able to spread out. Too hard to maintain in the long run, unless you are guaranteed a huge and active amount of clannies. Taxed rails have no such problem. So they can spread out. 

 

Anyways, we saw how that panned out. It's pretty good for Eclipse. But like Triburos says...

 

It's supremely unprofitable to attack a clan's home turf. Same goes for any kind of war. 

[koolen]

Greetings Tenno,

 

Thank you for the continued opportunity to offer you the rail at Pluto: Sechura. Your trust in us is truly humbling.

 

We were inconsequential to the defense of the rail and deserve no credit for keeping it. I instructed our members not to run the rail missions, and we did not offer any Battle Pay. So, quite literally, we had nothing to do with it.

 

Our goal in this was to show that ultimately the rails are in the hands of the community, not a clan or alliance. If we had attempted to make the battle between the mighty Eclipse Alliance and the Shadows of Vengeance, we would have been completely crushed. By stepping aside, it was our hope that the voice of the community would be heard clearly with no questions regarding the cause of the outcome.

 

We were stunned at the amount of support we received. The moment we saw Eclipse had deployed a rail against us, we thought our time of service had come to an end. Even in our speculation, we never really held out hope of staying the custodians of Sechura. We were ready to abandon any new conflicts for rails and slip away quietly into the shadows. We literally sat watching with amazement as the Eclipse rail melted away under the tidal forces arrayed against it. You have encouraged us beyond words, Tenno. We now know the labors we have made to provide tax free rails in the past were all worth it. We are in your debt.

 

I was personally contacted by more clanless Free Tenno, Clans, and Alliances than I can say offering their support. Whole armies of Ninjas pledged their support. You all know who you are, and you all have our deepest thanks.

 

To those clans and alliances fighting battles for your own Solar Rails, yet encouraging people so support the defense of Sechura, you baffled us. That you would sacrifice people fighting for you and send them to support another shows your character transcends mere words.

 

Clan Ghost Bear, you have been one of the lights to the community in displaying the highest integrity and honor. You deserve the highest praise for all you have done and continue to do. Your endorsement in our time of need is yet another example of why you hold the esteem of the community.

 

Take note of this truth, brothers and sisters who hold rails: it was just proven that we are custodians that operate at the whim of the community. Serve them and they will honor and protect you. Abuse them and they will destroy your rail and allow another faction the chance to earn their trust.

 

We are all learning what the community truly wants from those of us who hold rails. Do not judge too harshly the Eclipse Alliance. Their success has shown they are doing what some in the community wanted in the past and perhaps still want now. Give them the chance to change into what you want them to be. Remember they did provide free rails for a time in those first turbulent days, and defended them tax free long as they could at great expense to themselves. Give them another chance to earn your trust. They could be a great force for the execution of your will on the Solar Rails.

 

For our part, it is our duty to hold to our promise of tax free rails for any in our care, always.

 

It is our honor to serve you, Tenno. May victory go before you always.

 

 

- Salishaz, Warlord of the Shadows of Vengeance

please guys put the taxes to 5% min, 7% would be good, if eclipse take the node, they will apply their 25% taxes, and WE DON'T WANT THAT, me and my friends will fight for you, for honour, glory, and liberty

[Morcant]

Given Eclipse can still afford to pay 40k per run in the future, or potentially more given they aren't constantly bombarded by the angry mobs...

 

The community could easily make double or tripple that 40k in the same 5 minute time span.

 

This damage control.

 

Battle pay is inconsequential. It's available until the moment Eclipse is assured victory, then abandoned. A supply of credits offered for such a brief window does not in any way excuse Eclipse's ever-increasing and already egregious tax rates over the following two to three days of armistice.

 

That battle pay is changed on a whim compounds the issue, making it a very unreliable and high-risk bet for players. Even if battle pay exceeded losses to taxation (it doesn't), a Dark Sector with low/no tax is a more consistent and reliable credit farm, available the majority of the time regardless of conflicts.

 

The more property a single Alliance/Clan owns the less they would need for higher tributes

 

And this is simply disingenuous. Eclipse have demonstrated by their actions that holding the most nodes of any clan or alliance has led only to higher taxes. Talk is cheap; players can see clearly what has become of misplaced faith in such promises.

[Ourobor]

I'm pretty sure DE said they were going to be implementing something to fix this in the devstream.

[koolen]

They chose to offer 0 tax, we chose to click on that node when it was availiable (lottery style) ...these are both choices...dunno why one choice would turn  you against an alliance that has only tried to offer the best battle pay to date in the game of warframe.

"the best battlepay", yeah, you could do the missions 2 times and have 80k battle pay, then every time that you will play the node, you'll have to pay 25% of your rewards ( 25% of 40 000, so play the node more than 8 times and you will "lose" some money)

[AprilFools]

However, I would like to humbly request that Eclipse don't take over rails that are already well supported and loved by the community.

As someone who does not have any ill will towards Eclipse at all, I'd like to pose a request to them; if you truely like to support the community, please don't contradict yourself by harming a rail that is doing the same. just in a different manner. Because other than adding another solar rail to your collection, there's little point to it don't you think?

 

Took the words right out of my mouth.

[-CM-Chips]

When the solar rails began, Eclipse wanted to offer 0% taxes and to keep it that way. Who in their right mind would want everyone to hate them? However, right from the start people were shouting "monopoly, monopoly!" and challenging the Eclipse Rails with all that they had. In order to maintain the rails, Eclipse had to steadily increase tax rate to afford the battle pay. And here we are today. Even TW Alliance had to raise their taxes after our battle. But I digress.

 

Congratulations on defending your rail. I'm pretty astounded how many people rallied behind Pluto as well as Ceres. It's a brave thing to do, and the community has definitely spoken. You might even see me running that dark sector from time to time. I wish you the best of luck in all future conflicts.

[MegaSnail]

I support you Shadows of Vengeance, I'm slowly turning away from Eclipse the more they do something... dishonorable. 

[Calayne]

I support you Shadows of Vengeance, I'm slowly turning away from Eclipse the more they do something... dishonorable. 

 

That's.... That's really nothing to do with being dishonourable. A challenge is a challenge. There was no underhanded tactics. Both sides had their strengths. It was a fair exchange of proverbial blows.

[MegaSnail]

That's.... That's really nothing to do with being dishonourable. A challenge is a challenge. There was no underhanded tactics. Both sides had their strengths. It was a fair exchange of proverbial blows.

A knight doesn't fight an Imp, no matter how wicked. 

[Calayne]

A knight doesn't fight an Imp, no matter how wicked. 

 

... You lost me there, friend. 

 

A knight usually just kills anything evil. 

 

In fact, if we're talking about the Crusaders kinda knights, they actually just kill about anything. 

 

This was a fight between two knights, championing different causes. This is Romeo and Juliet. 

 

No one blames a tiger for eating deer. No one blames the deer for running from the tiger. Or in this case, punching the tiger back without even realising it. It's a fair fight.

[2ply]

Aw man. 2ply. Dude. Friend. 

 

You're a cool dude, most times, but I think you're feeling a little upset about the outcome of this battle. 

 

Not at all really, I do however see your clever attempt to paint me in a bad light here...

 

I'm not upset by the outcome of yesterday, if anything I could say I actually predicted it.

 

You have to understand we in Eclipse make decisions as a council, we discuss things.

 

Please don't patronize, or take my public comments on behalf of Eclipse out of context with the intent to make me look like a sore loser....

 

Farthest thing from the truth.

 

If anything, I'm actually just warming up for more "heart to hearts" with the public..

 

Because clearly...us trying to be the neutral "silent respectful type" has failed us in the long run.

 

Had we been more vocal in regards to our intentions, and the benefits that are truly made available out of tribute taxes we may have not had the same outcome yesterday...but like I've said, it was decided to stay calm, respectful..and silent.

 

I think that time has come to an end.

 

And to be BLUNT...

 

We do our research, we know who was at the CORE of this negative propaganda machine, and we're just waiting for them to make an appearance openly and without the proxies.

 

But if they are smart they should probably stay in the shadows pushing the buttons behind the curtain...because the general public..not very fond of them.

[Triburos]

-snip-

1st response: No worries. As I said, I do agree that taxes aren't bad. But my thoughts are nothing compared to the public now.

2nd response: Well, it might be part Eclipse hate, but I also like to think that some of it comes from the fact that it's very easy to assume that taxes are evil. It's just the easiest thing to believe, and thus that's a con to taxing clans. Even if there wasn't a hate machine on Eclipse, I think that if Eclipse just came out of nowhere and attacked SoV's rail - even if they had the ability to ship out the same amount of battle pay - they would have been defeated just the same.

But I can't see into alternate dimensions. So who knows.

3rd response: Pros and cons are largely opinion based. But here's the pros and cons to no taxes and taxing from my view point:

No Tax:

+ Publically accepted

+ Higher credit payout per Dark Sector run

- Ineffective with multiple rails

- Potentially longer conflicts.

Taxes:

+ Higher Battle Pay during conflicts.

+ Faster conflicts / greater victory chance (in most cases. SoV was a special case).

- Negative reception from some of the public by default (aka, the group who assume taxes are bad just from the word 'tax'

- Lower credit payout per Dark Sector mission

- Little reason for them if owning few rails. Almost required if multiple rails are owned

- Difficult to attack No Tax rails (As seen with the SoV conflict here)

But again, those are just my view points. I just see taxes as having more hurdles to jump through than no taxes.

4th response: You are indeed correct; I have not, nor do I intend to operate or maintain rails.

However, considering the sheer number of rails that Eclipse has, I find it difficult to believe that on top of their battle pays, they'd be able to repair all their rails without taxes. As I said, 250k to fix a completely broken rail isn't alot, but when you factor in battle pay like you said along with multiplying that repair rate for the number of rails you have, I find it difficult to believe that Eclipse can survive without taxes.

If you wish to prove me wrong, it'd be a learning experience for me. The sheer number of rails make repair costs sound devastating.

5th response: Well- like I mentioned before; having taxes is going to irritate some people by default. A major spark in the Eclipse hate fire was the fact that some people started thinking that taxes were lame. And lo and behold, Eclipse is a pretty popular name! And they tax! Let's hate them!

But you also didn't do yourself any favors by attacking a rail that alot of people liked. To be fair, you gotta admit that Eclipse was biting a bullet by attacking a rail that was attempting to benefit the community just like you guys, just in a different way.

6th response: For one, they're polite with their comments to the playerbase. Not to say Eclipse isn't, but it's just a start. Second, they're using the fact that alot of people find taxes automatically evil to their advantage, thus gaining the appreciation of that group of people as well. Third, they have been able to keep their promise of having their rail 0%, rather than taxing just for the hell of it (I recall some clans doing this and they didn't even give battle pay during a conflict).

Again, not to say Eclipse isn't nice and honorable in their own way, but Shadows of Vengence stands out alot not just because they have a popular spot for their solar rail, but also because of their preformance and display to the public.

7th response: Once more, I think this is where our thoughts differ. You believe that people hate taxes because of propaganda and flames. I believe that some people hate taxes by default because it's been twisted into an evil word nowadays. And like I mentioned before, attacking SoV's rail is just a beacon of more hate.

As for your rail count, I didn't mean to imply that you guys had too many rails. That's up to you to decide. If you think you're biting off more than you can chew, then you know what to do.

I was just saying that the more rails you have, the more important taxing becomes, be it for repairs or in your case; battle pay.

8th response: Oh no, I wasn't referring to every player in the public. I ment the players who have decided to fight against you. Like I said- weither they grew by being lead by hate machines or propaganda is irrelevant. You just need to realize that they DO have power, no matter how ill you think it was aquired.

 

Well, anyways, I do enjoy the conversation / debate here.

[Salishaz]

How large is your clan? Because I totally wouldn't put it past DE to make the costs scale upwards for number of clans/members in an Alliance. I know Eclipse has a bunch of clans and is bumping up against the member cap.

 

Greetings Tenno,

 

That is an excellent question. I myself wondered the same thing. The current tier of our clan is a Shadow Clan. In another thread, one that got merged and completely lost in a mega thread, an alliance was saying their rails cost the same to repair as ours. They said they had 2000 or more members with the same rail repair costs.

 

It would be inconsistent of DE to say in the beginning, "Rails cost so much, you will need to be a large clan or form an alliance," and not have us pay as much as the larger factions. It also makes no sense to have the repairs cost 20 times the original construction cost of the rail.

 

I hope this answers your question. please let me know if I can be of any further assistance. I am happy to help.

 

- Salishaz, Warlord of the Shadows of Vengeance

[BolognaPogna]

- Negative reception from some of the public by default (aka, the group who assume taxes are bad just from the word 'tax'

 

 

 

Let's be honest though. Aside from themselves, who cares about idiots that can't math? They remind me of old people calling tech support that try and tell you how to do your job, like it's their fault you can't computer and have 15 search bars.  Then, when you bring math and elementary economics into the discussion they reply with "because they're too big" and "down with Wal-Mart and Eclipse". Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in my assumption that these people were the kids that "just didn't get it" in class.

[Doom_Bunny]

Quote from Letter13: "Battlepay is limited by what's in the alliance's vault. If their vault runs dry, they can't give out more battlepay."
 

With that said this varying amount of tax pays for the whole thing (development, repairs and rewards) with a large reward if you fight for them. It's not safe for any one to give higher then what they take. Yet they are and remain stable for now.

[2ply]

Are We Creating A New Type of Monster?

 

Hello Tenno,

 

Please take a moment and let us reflect on a few things in our current state of the Dark Sectors Together!

 

Yesterday there was a massive joining of forces to defend a rail at 0% tax....the trend to offer 0% tribute started before the Dark Sectors were even deployed...

 

Question the future of the Dark Sector for a moment....

 

Was this act of banding together to fight off Alliances who intend to use tax going to become the TREND?

 

Or was this an isolated incident directed at Eclipse?

 

The real question goes out to YOU!

 

The alliances and clans that supported this effort to protect the 0% tax...

 

Ask yourself, would you like to hold a rail, would you like to provide that service to your alliance or clan...and to the public?

 

Do you expect to hold that rail at 0% tax?

 

Do you really?

 

If you noticed after the first battle yesterday was WON by the TW Alliance..they immediately raised their taxes to a more sustainable level. Why did this happen after all the fighting to protect them at their current tax rate?

 

Why would they immediantly up the taxes? Was this because they learned a valuable lesson?

 

You are creating the means to your own end in fighting for 0% tax, if you desire to hold a rail.

 

...there will always be a clan or alliance that plays the game differently and will use the credits they receive through taxes against you.

 

Most like the TW Alliance will see the need for tax, and they will see you at 0% as easy pickings.

 

...do you really expect this group of supporters of 0% tax to have your back if you decide to secure and hold your own  rail?

 

What if you decided you would like some tax or worse..found the need to raise taxes to stay afloat!?

 

Are you to be the next target of the monster you are creating?

 

Eclipse may have won the space race...gotten a larger number of nodes and logically applied a tax to those nodes for the sake of defending them...but does that automatically make them the bad guy?

 

Please consider the future implications of your crusades..and how they will echo through time and perhaps...bite you on the butt one day.

 

Thank you!

[Triburos]

Let's be honest though. Aside from themselves, who cares about idiots that can't math? They remind me of old people calling tech support that try and tell you how to do your job, like it's their fault you can't computer and have 15 search bars.  Then, when you bring math and elementary economics into the discussion they reply with "because they're too big" and "down with Wal-Mart and Eclipse". Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in my assumption that these people were the kids that "just didn't get it" in class.

Yeah, but like I've been saying; they're still a pretty large group.

It's a stupid thought, yeah.

"These guys are too big!"

"Taxes are evil!"

"Let's rebel for reasons we have little understanding of!"

That sorta thing. While incredibly ignorant (in my opinion anyways), you can't deny that there's a large sum of people who think like this. And it's because of them that Eclipse has gathered so much hate.

But I think the hate meter just went off the charts when SoV's rail was attacked. Though to be fair, that wasn't a good move on Eclipse's part if they truely want to benefit the community.

I mean, it was if they just wanted the spot to show their name on the star chart.... Again. But it wasn't if what they said about benefitting the community was true.

[Brimir]

All-in-all, I can't wait until the Goons spill out from their EVE hangouts(or someone else like them) and spread their trademark villainy to Warframe as well.

 

....

 

I really, really wish that DE hadn't taken inspiration from EVE Online.

Edited April 29, 2014 by Brimir

[Calayne]

I honestly didn't expect any different from a larger community. The average ability to do math decreases with population, if there's no minimum criteria for that. At any rate, it is what it is. These same people will jump on good battle pay anyways, when it isn't hyped. Easy come, easy go.