Saryn. Anyone Remember Her? [The Unnofficial Saryn Rework Thread]

[MechaKnight]

Note: This thread is somewhat outdated, but is a valuable record of all things Saryn related. Every so often, a post may be added to record changes to this warframe.

 

 

As part of a community effort, feel free to cite this thread if you perceive it necessary on a Saryn discussion thread. It would be helpful to contact me and help cross-link these threads.

If you agree with buffing this Warframe after reading this thread, a silent nod of approval can be given by upvoting this starting post. Constructive discussion within the thread is also encouraged.

 

Disclaimer: Some ability rework drafts feature calculations. These are only used for demonstration purposes, and are not at all indicative of what DE would use in their own rework.
 

Current phase: Features and calculation tuning.

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The topic: many players recognize the lack of this warframe being often. And from intense study, I can see why: she needs some buffing. All but one of her powers scale with strength, duration, and range, with the exception of her worst ability which only scales with strength and duration. Yet the result of building a capable mod kit for this character is so vastly underwhelming for the effort involved, it feels defeating to know that this warframe either doesn't perform well, or is too rigid in builds compared to a myriad of other warframes.

In particular, her closest comparisons are Loki, Banshee, Frost, Rhino, and Valkyr. So a bit of discussion will take place later to compare them. In general, Saryn is less defensively inclined but more offensively inclined.



As of now, let's skim over her skills. I will use the template below...

Ability
>The feature and its problem--abilities can have multiple features up for discussion.
>>Solutions: Various ways to fix the problem. There can be multiple solution sections under each ability feature, for various ways of addressing the problem.
>>Community Suggested Solutions [spoiler-minimized]:To accommodate a larger, more complex range of community solutions, they will be placed here alongside my simple solutions. This will allow our readers and [DE] to see these suggestions quickly and easily, while keeping priorities in check.

==>Updates [spoiler minimized]: Any changes that have occured since the writing of this post, with short commentary.

>>Ability Drafts: To further help our developers, a comprehensive draft will be maintained, so our developers will have an easier time planning for this ability.

>>>Priority: How important and immediate it should hit the development table compared to the other fixes on this warframe. Sorted from 1 (very low) to 5 (very high).
>>>>Reason: the reason for your priority level on those fixes.

Miscellaneous: Anything else about the Warframe that should be fixed that's not an ability.

I may refer to a [DE] play video as reference to Saryn’s ability performance. You can watch it here:

Venom
>Awkward spread mechanic: Enemies are killed very frequently before the spores pop or spread, so some players see this ability as a waste of energy. Spreading of spores very difficult without specialized weapons and mods, stressing the player to form an entire suite of weapons and mods dedicated to Saryn, when other warframes are not expected to do so. The closest comparison is Banshee's Sonar, and while I can accept that Venom is nowhere near as good, it should at least work as intended. Various play sessions from [DE] Rebecca show that she fails at popping spores 100% of the time due to her weapon choice.

>>Solutions: Give a % chance that the enemy will spread spores on death. Anywhere from small to 100% granted, it should help with general usage.

>>Community Suggested Solutions

>If the target enemy dies, spores should stay on the corpse ragdoll, and still be able to be activated.
>Each tick of damage should have a chance to spread spores to surrounding enemies.
>It should stun the afflicted enemy for a couple of seconds on the moment of casting.
>A form of health leech for having spores on enemies, possibly influenced by the amount/kind of spores on the field.

>>Ability Drafts

Venom is comparable to Banshee's Sonar at closest, and while it's definitely nowhere near as good, it should at least work reliably.

Banshee deals 500% multiplier (up to 1145% with maxed power strength) in 35 meters (extended to 50.75 meters with Stretch) for 30 seconds (47.4 seconds with Continuity and Constitution).

Saryn effects only one enemy with viral, and if the enemy dies without hitting a major spore at all, the minor spores won't spread. Usually, it's the case that venom gets wasted on a single enemy outright. Meanwhile since the Cicero event mods were recently re-released and the Tethra and Breeding Grounds event mods have been released, most players tend to use viral or corrosive on weapons anyway, with very high proc chance. Meanwhile multiple tests show that Venom's proc chance per tick is very low to begin with, and generally only significant when using Continuity, Constitution, and Narrow Minded.

At this point the minimum improvement that could happen is a good one, regardless: allow spores to be spread upon death of the enemy, regardless of whether or not someone managed to pop a major spore. Alternatively, a proc chance per tick increase. Venom could even be worked to be entirely different, so long as it comes with significant effect.

>>>Priority: 3-Normal

>>>>Reason: Because of Venom's reliance of duration, most players don't use it. Even when using positively modded duration, hit detection frequently makes this ability fall flat.

Molt
>Does not perform well defensively: Molt only has 400 health compared to Iron Skin's 1200, and the Molt doesn't move. For static protection comparison, Snow Globe has 2800 base HP. As what is supposed to be Saryn's primary form of self-protection, it's rather fragile. It also doesn't seem to hold attention well, given that the player is at the center or the decoy initially, and tends to hold enemy attention as they're fleeing. Even when Saryn flees, the best Molt can do is act as a very weak, very temporary single-durection distraction—anything that spawns closer to Saryn than the Molt will attack Saryn. You can see this problem in the [DE] play video where Rebecca panics after constantly getting hit with bleed proc by enemies ignoring the Molt.

Molt has no damage reduction, cloaking, or enemy stun past its short threat generation range and low HP, so it generally comes across as insufficient for its defense role. It has the constant maintenance cost of Loki’s Invisibility, but not adequately able to defend. Saryn is the only warframe in the game as of now that does not possess any of these qualities in an ability: damage reduction, cloaking, shielding, healing, and enemy stun on an ability that does not cost 100 energy (is a tier 4 ability)

>>Solutions: Buff the HP on it to at least 1200, increase the enemy's attention to it, give Saryn a temporary defense buff (when Molt is cast), temporary cloak (when ability is cast), or temporary enemy stun (when Molt explodes). It can also scale with armor similar to how Frost's Snow Globe and Valkyr's Warcry does.

>>Community Suggested Solutions

>It should have interesting features such as removal/resistance/immunity to debuffs, temporary healing.
>It should allow for multiple stacked iterations, like how Frost can stack Snow Globes.
>It should spread venom spores to melee attackers.
>The attack should simultaneously leave behind a Molt and perform a dash in a direction.
>Can blind enemies upon explosion for a short duration.

>>Ability Drafts

We’re going to tackle the problems surround Molt’s defensive capabilities, which while few deny Saryn is limited to the worst tier of crowd control outside of her tier 4 ability, it will be a challenge to balance her in comparison to 18 other warframes, as well as what could be more than one crowd control or area-of-denial ability per warframe.

Essentially, the problem with Molt is that for the cost, it is rather awful for defending yourself. Usually enemies only acknowledge the Molt if they’re within 9 meters of it and Saryn is farther away from them than the molt is. The fact that the molt is deployed in her current position makes it dangerous for the first few seconds you put it down, which is a pity because her current viable build only gives the molt seven seconds maximum to do anything. Essentially, you may as well not try to defend yourself with molt.

I’m going to try to revise the way molt works without encroaching into the territory of other warframes too much.

Generally, warframes defend themselves with cloaking, shielding, statuses, and stuns of various kinds. Saryn lacks these elements. I’ll do the best to be concise and not name every single defensive warframe ability in the game.

For cloaking, the shortest cloak belongs to Ash. It lasts for 8 seconds, and scales with duration.

For shielding, there’s Iron Skin, Turbulence, Warcry, Hysteria, Snow Globe, and things of similar nature.

For statuses, there’s Molecular Prime, Warcry, Silence, similar debuffers.

For stun, there’s Sonic Boom, Pull, Radial Blind, Paralysis, Ice Wave, Tempest Surge, Tidal Barrage, more.

Let’s look at some alternative ways to improve Molt’s defensive ability.

One is adding a cloak to Saryn for 4 seconds base.

Another is giving Saryn “molted skin” or such that absorbs 600 damage base.

Another is slowing enemies after the molt’s health expires, or even the moment the ability is used.

Yet another is tear gas (blinding), or enemies falling over from the force of explosion from molt, or similar.

Saryn simply needs a more evasive/sturdy/supportive/effective way to protect herself. The molt just doesn’t do defense well.

>>>Priority: 4-High

>>>>Reason: Regardless of what role this warframe would have on a team, it is the only warframe in the game as of now that does not possess any of these qualities in an ability: damage reduction, cloaking, shielding, healing, and enemy stun on an ability that does not cost 100 energy (is a tier 4 ability). Be it in Molt or Contagion, Saryn needs a satisfactory form of self defense.

>Offensive portion does not perform ideally: The concept is that the molt explodes after its health is depleted, and harm targets in the vicinity. The problem is that often, very few targets are affected within the range of this radius, the radius has a diminishing effectiveness over range, and this range is so short, even infested ancients may attack it without receiving damage when the molt pops. Molt’s effect is comparable to a grenade with physical projectiles and damage falloff. There are a limited number of projectiles, and similarly to shotguns, each pellet does less damage over time. How many projectiles is unknown, for the effect is invisible.

>>Solutions: Larger radius, remove falloff, and a better form of detection to apply the effect to enemies in range.

>>Community Suggested Solutions

>Allow Venom to be cast on Molt to increase it's damage potential.

>>>Priority: 3-Normal 2.5-Somewhat Low

>>>>Reason: Frost and Valkyr feature defensive skills that also have an offensive portion, and Loki and Ash too if you consider their cloaks granting 400% melee damage multiplier. The offensive portion of Molt is not up to par in comparison to these. Additionally, Valkyr's Paralysis puts enemies in an unaware state similar to cloaks and blinds, so she gains a 400% melee damage modifier using only 5 energy without use of energy efficiency mods.

 

==>Update:

Molt has been given the ability to drop status effect from the caster. It's a nice change so priority of altering this ability has been dropped to 2.5

Contagion
>Utterly horrible: We don't see very many players who actually like the way this skill is conceived currently. For damage, it scales in a sub-par manner compared to abilities. For utility, it is purely restricted to melee, and some players do not like how the poison element alters their carefully prepared elemental combos on their melee weapon. For defense, it doesn't give any of the aforementioned qualities above. Generally, melee warframe abilities focus on: cloaking, damage reduction, healing, damage dealing. Contagion doesn't do any of these well enough.

>>Solutions: Many solutions. Fixing any of the aforementioned problems can help. There are also more interesting ways to rebuild this ability, such as toxic emanation, a rework of the old Overheat, general damage reduction, counter-offensive damage dealing, energy/health generation per hit, use on other weapons besides melee, teamwork aspect that helps the team, and many, many more. Reading the Community Suggestions section is highly recommended.

Toggles are being discussed for fixing, but at this point this skill is so bad the toggle possibility isn't the problem.

>>Community Suggested Solutions

>It should leave a mist (toxic/viral/corrosive/gas) that stays on the ground and spreads over an area to deal damage over time for enemies within it.
>It should emanate a cloud from Saryn as she's mobile.
>Enemies hit by a melee weapon during Contagion's duration should emanate a toxic cloud from each themselves that will harm themselves and others.
>It can cover Saryn in spines, and enemies that collide physically with her can take damage and be stunned.
>It should provide toxic element buffs to her primary and secondary weapons as well as her melee weapon.
>paralyzing toxin aura that gradually reduces the attack/movement speed of enemies in range
>protective aura that increases Saryn's resistance to knockdowns and damage (a toxin variant of Overheat perhaps)
>It can spread to buff teammates.
>Inverse-Venom: spores grow on Saryn. If enemies attack Saryn, in will deal toxin/corrosive/gas/viral (one choice) to surrounding enemies.

>Melee projectiles: swinging your melee weapon can toss toxic sludge onto enemies from a distance.

>>Ability Drafts

I’m sure most of us agree that Contagion is an awful ability to use as of now, but let’s get constructive. It seems that the most popular suggestions as to how to fix Contagion is to use a derivative of the old Overheat. I will consider this retired ability along with current in-game warframe melee abilities of similar nature to come to an agreeable conclusion.

The most ideal comparison for a melee ability to start with as a base is Valkyr’s Warcry, with consideration of Ash’s and Loki’s melee bonus limits. It has the same point cost as Contagion, and is accepted as a balanced melee ability.

At base, the bonuses this ability contributes are:
50% ally speed buff
50% ally armor buff
30% enemy debuff
The ability has a 25 meter range, and lasts for 15 seconds. It costs 75 energy.

Compared to Contagion’s single 75% poison damage for 20 seconds, it’s far superior. I’ll do my best to approximate these bonuses to Saryn, and find some alternatives.

Our community seems to want most of all, damage reduction and toxic emanation from Saryn, which is definitely within the domain of Overheat. However, this ability was retired, due to the nature of the warframe it was applied to, and possible imbalance. I’ll list the bonuses just the same. The bonuses are:

200 fire damage within 0.5 meters of the caster (not scaled off power strength or power range)
40% damage reduction (scaled with power strength)
For 20 seconds (scaled off power duration), for a cost of 50 energy.

That’s Overheat. Clearly it confers a bonus for being close to enemies, but it did not give incentive to be close all the time or perform melee, so players just put it on for protection and kept using guns. A true melee ability has to have melee incentive.

I’m pretty sure 50 energy is too cheap for what Overheat did, so 75 energy is the first adjustment.

Secondly, it goes without saying the fire damage will be changed to toxin, but to make this ability appeal to melee, it must be merged with Valkyr’s Warcry to give this ability melee incentive.

The damage reduction should also scale with power, but the base amount needs to be discussed for balance. Alternatively, we can go the route of buffing armor, similar to Valkyr’s Warcry. The following discussion will compare the warframes, assuming maxed Vitality, Steel Fiber, and Redirection is worn by both.

Let’s consider Valkyr first.

She has 600 base armor, and 100 base health. She will gain an additional +200 HP at rank 30.

The calculation for effective health points (EHP) is:
Effective Health = Base Health * (1 + (Armor / 300))

So Valkyr has with maxed Vitality and Steel Fiber: 3848 EHP, plus 370 shields with Redirection, she will have 4218 points of damage resistance.

While under the effect of Warcry, at base power strength she will have 5402 effective health.
She will have a mild 370 shield afterwards.
This totals to 5772 points of damage resistance.

If Warcry is maxed in power strength, Valkyr will have 7406.66 EHP, and the shields will bring her damage total to 7776 points.

Saryn has more health points, but lower armor. Her base EHP with Vitality and Steel Fiber is: 2314.35 EHP, with 740 shields on top, she will take 3054 damage before she gets floored.

With Warcry at base, she has 2916.525 EHP, and with power strength maxed Warcry, she has 3693.33075 EHP, and with 740 shields on top, 4433 damage.

Saryn with this armor boosting scheme will have 57% Valkyr’s damage limit before getting floored. To approach this limit, the armor multiplier needs a significant buff, but the only reason why Valkyr’s buff was shared amongst the team was because it was planned that no other warframe would have so much armor, and therefore an adjusted version for Saryn could not share its benefit with the team for reason of being too powerful. Other bonuses will have to be conferred to the team.

Let’s try to bring Saryn to between 80% to 85% of the damage tolerance Valkyr has. We’ll cover the remaining lost portion with a small ability bonus later. If this draft is used,
Saryn’s self-applied armor boost from Contagion would need to be…

150% armor boost at base cast of the skill would confer 4120.875 EHP, and with 740 shields added on top, she will have 4860 damage. This will bring her to 84.199% of what Valkyr can tolerate at Warcry’s base armor buff. Alternatively, the buff can be 120%, and she will have 3759.57 EHP plus 740 shields, 4499 damage cap, which is 77.9% of Valkyr’s damage cap.

The power maxed version of the 150% draft would give Saryn 6451.29 EHP, and the 740 shields stacked on top will confer7191 damage tolerance. This is 92% of what Valkyr can tolerate with her version of this ability, Warcry. Alternatively, the 120% draft version will be power maxed to give 274.8% damage reduction, which will confer 5623.9 EHP, rounded down then boosted by 740 shields to give 6363 damage cap, which is 81.8% of Valkyr’s ability. So for better balance, we’ll take the draft that gives Saryn an initial armor boost of 120%, which is modifiable by power strength. The lost percentage can be compensated for by adding a small fun effect.

Alternatively to the above, we can go the simpler route and attempt to achieve the same effect using total damage reduction instead of armor boosting. Within the discussion of comparative buff effects from the original Warcry, Saryn had only 57% of the durability Valkyr has when the ability had maximum power strength. To achieve even protection from her skill using pure damage reduction, the power strength maxed iteration of the new Contagion would confer just over 75% damage reduction, so reverse-calculating down from maxed power strength, the starting damage reduction would be about 33% base. We can lower it down to 30% damage reduction, which is a loss to Saryn but otherwise the numbers are cleaner. This version is a simple, yet well-balanced approach to rebalancing Overheat’s damage reduction. It will cost 75 energy as opposed to 50, and it will confer 30% damage reduction as opposed to 40%, keeping the ability within balance of Valkyr’s Warcry. This is supposed to be a melee skill however, so it’s time to give melee incentive.

Valkyr can already boost other Valkyr players and take turns giving buffs, so we wouldn’t want to superbuff Valkyr to insane armor levels. Based on whichever one of the three drafts that are selected from what I suggested above, we’ll have the remaining to balance out:

If using the 150% base armor increasing version, we’ll have a minor 8% of Saryn’s defense to compensate for.

If using the 120% base armor increasing version, we have 20% of Saryn’s defense to compensate for.

If using my 30% base damage reduction version, we have practically nothing to cover for, and the additional effect can be left on the cutting room floor.

Regardless of which option you and/or the developers choose to use, we still have to compensate for that large chunk of team defense utility that was scrapped from Valkyr’s original Warcry, to suit Saryn’s personality—we’ll get there soon enough. As the original Warcry did, this will only apply to teammates and enemies within range of the initial skill cast, and will last for the duration of the ability on those affected targets. Contagion already has a timer between reuse, so appropriating a derivative of Warcry+Overheat splicing to her will work without need of adjustment, and players can use the ability as they already have been.

Valkyr’s ability granted 50% additional melee speed at base power strength, and granted 114.5% melee speed buff with maxed power strength. Enemy speed at base power strength is reduced by 30%, and at maxed power strength reduced by 68.7%.

Observing our melee mods, Attack speed is at a higher premium per percentage added than base attack damage, and elemental damage costs a bit more per percentage than base damage. So the ratio of base speed (Fury)/base damage (Pressure Point)/base element damage (Fever Strike) in the mods is 30/120/90, which is factored down to 1/4/3. So for every one percent of attack speed percentage added, we can add three percent toxin damage. So simply speaking, we take Valkyr’s melee speed boost, and convert it to toxin damage on weapons, multiplied by three. So Saryn’s conversion of this skill would confer 150% additional toxin damage at base, power strength maxed to 343.5% toxin damage added to melee weapons, for all of your teammates. This converts Valkyr’s team bonus to something that makes sense for Saryn’s slower, toxic nature, and is still within limits of Ash’s and Loki’s cloak melee damage buff of 400%.

We still have to compensate for the missing half of team bonuses. It’s fair to say that team bonuses are worth as much as enemy debuffs, so this is an option to consider. This all has to happen within range of the ability itself.

To compensate for half of the team bonus lost, I’ll convert it directly to harmful effect applied to enemies. I opt for 200 toxin damage applied to all enemies within the area with a 100% forced proc chance. Toxin proc deals 50% the initial damage, so enemies will generally take 100 damage per second for 9 ticks within 8 seconds, which will be 900 damage total after 8 seconds. The logic for this skill is Ember’s Fire Storm ability with partial effectiveness. Fire Storm deals 150 damage per tick base. It deals one tick at the start, and one tick per second thereafter, for a total of 21 ticks of damage at base, equating to 3150 damage. Since Warcry has 25 meters initial range, Saryn’s new Contagion will also have this range. The 25 meter instant effect with range scaling is weighed against Ember’s persistent trap with duration scaling, on equal basis, then divided by three since this feature is supposed to be worth a third of an established warframe ability of equal point value. Alternatively, we can replace this toxic offensive effect with lifesteal on melee weapons for the entire team. This will help the team, and allow Saryn to be alongside Valkyr to provide a different team buff. The life strike will have a value of 4% life strike per hit.

So far so good, all that’s left is to consider a unique effect applied to Saryn herself to cover the missing chunk of the defense value the skill should have given. What we have so far is…

Contagion:

Within 25 meters instantly, applies various effects to teammates and enemies, which once applied lasts for a duration of 15 seconds if the effect is meant to be persistent. This ability scales with power strength, range, and duration.

To teammates:
Instead of a 50% speed buff to team melee weapons, grant a 150% (strength modifiable) toxin damage buff to team melee weapons. This damage effect should not combine with already existing elements on weapons, but should be added separately after. It will last for the duration of the ability.

Instead of granting a 50% armor increase to allies, apply 200 toxin damage (strength modifiable) with 100% proc chance to enemies within ability range. It is an instant effect, so it will not be affected by power duration. It is a single hit of toxin with 100% status chance (always happens), and the status will only last for 8 seconds. Alternatively, this can be replaced with 4% life strike on all teammate melee weapons for the duration of the ability.

Both Warcry and Contagion will apply the same 30% debuff to enemy speed. This effect will last for the duration of the ability.

All that’s left to cover for is the possible loss of Saryn’s defense from the adaptation of Warcry, based on which draft you chose to use. A mild yet helpful offensive effect should do the trick. If you used the 150% armor buff base, we compensate for the 8% defense loss with 10 toxin damage per second aura around Saryn within 0.5 meters of herself. This range does not scale with power range mods. If you went with the 120% armor buff base, it should be a 25 toxin damage per second aura within 0.5 meters of herself. If the 30% damage reduction draft was chosen, I suppose this feature need not be here.

This is my first draft of my Contagion overhaul, kept within balance best I could. It’s still a work in progress, so do offer constructive guidance, and hopefully [DE] will consider these ideas for the Contagion rework, because it sure needs one.

>>>Priority: 5-Very High

>>>>Reason: Definitely the worst skill in her ability kit, to which nobody has denied. Rarely spoken of, except to say it is awful. Depending on how this skill is buffed, or completely remade, or completely replaced, it can vastly improve Saryn's play experience. I highly recommend this skill be tackled first.

Miasma
>Inverse damage calculation completely countering her other three skills: I am very, very sure DE is working on patching this up since they've played her to see the odd situation. However, this skill is already on the precarious position of being inefficient to other skills in terms of range and enemy-stun, so the proportional damage this skill has should either be considerably high as a balance, or it should have comparably useful utility to gameplay and teamwork, or this skill should be granted greater range and stun duration as compensation. A precise description of the duration problem can be found in this post by PsycloneM.

It seems that Miasma was intended to work similarly to Frost's Avalanche, because they have similar ranges and similar damage without this calculation involved. Removing the calculation and making these two skills identical is an easy way to fix Miasma, but the community has suggested additional improvements.

>>Solutions: Remove the inverse damage calculation in favor of one more fitting, or simply get rid of it and make it deal damage identical to Frost's Avalanche. Alternatively, players would want a duration-based ability with flat damage on impact, but debuffing status clouds lingering in the area. Contagion is higher priority since it could compensate for any crowd control losses if Miasma is reworked.

>>Community Suggested Solutions

>Corrosive emanation from Saryn's position.
>Duration should not be a factor in total damage done, but rather how quickly the total damage is dealt during time.
>Increased proc chance would make sense for us to increase the duration of the ability.

>>Ability Drafts

Draft 02

 

Implementation with no changes

As PsycloneM said, balancing out the total damage for the current iteration of Miasma as it is optimized currently would use these expressions:

 

2250 / ( 1 + power duration ) = DPS,

 rounded DPS x ( 1 + power duration ) = total damage.

 

Concept: preserve the optimum current usage, remove the current problems.

 

Possible new implementation of the classic system

1. Use a variation of the damage calculation with no changes. If this ability becomes better with time, we shouldn’t place the quality scaling on the damage. Let the additional effects of the ability serve as motivation.
2. Use blind effect, and modify it to scale with power duration. The base duration is 4 seconds. The damage and duration can be tweaked to find a balance between damage and support. If the ability becomes more supportive and less damaging, it should have increased range to reflect that it is a support ability.
3. Possibly add proc chance. Damage will decrease, but the proc can be helpful. This is to be considered after the previous two steps.

 

 

Implementation- Support

Change base duration from 4 seconds to 8 seconds

 

1000/(1+power duration) = DPS

Rounded DPS (1+power duration) = total damage

Result: always about 1000 damage total.

 

Blind effect: base duration 8 seconds

8* power duration = total duration

 

Additional support: corrosive proc chance 15%

(1 – (1 – 0.15)^X) * 100% = proc probability in % chance per use
Where X is the amount of attempts (tick by second). More seconds means more attempts, which means greater likelihood to proc.

 

To reflect support focus, base range can be boosted to 20m.

 

Result: the ability is modded for focus in stun and proc.

 

Implementation – Damage

Change base duration from 4 seconds to 5 seconds.

 

250*(5 seconds * power duration multiplier) = total damage

Damage relies purely on duration. It’s a duration-based damage skill now. All other attributes remain the same.

 

Older Drafts

 

Draft 01

 

Before I continue, I will post the simpler solution before I attempt a not-so-simple rework.

 

It may as well work identically to Frost's Avalanche.

1500 Corrosive Damage (scaled off power strength)
15 meters (scaled off power range)
Remove the duration calculation

 

Now it's time for a roundabout way to include community suggestions into a possible rework.

[This draft is an early WIP. There are yet no calculations as of yet, but the concept felt considerably well done. During my epiphany I found many ideas, so fine tuning will be done to balance the ability and leave some on the cutting room floor.]

The Current Implementation
As of now, we understand that Saryn is limited to using a Fleeting Expertise build to shorten her power duration. It harms Venom and Contagion, and harms Molt’s defensive advantage in exchange for what some consider offensive advantage. What if both positive power duration builds and Fleeting Expertise builds were somehow viable? To give players the old Saryn, and new Saryn?

Conditional Corrections
Before I go into discussion, I’ll give a conditional correction to another ability draft here: if this build of Miasma were to be implemented, my temporary cloak concept for Molt would have to be static—it would not scale with power duration. This short cloak should suffice to help Saryn be more evasive. Alternatively, Saryn could gain a temporary movement speed (walk and sprint) to evade faster after using Molt for a temporary static duration.


A fresh, original Miasma rework
Currently, Saryn’s Miasma is used as a slight improvement over Frost’s Avalanche, with a cost to all of her other abilities. Some old players may wish to keep this, but many others request something more dynamic. So let’s correct this small discrepancy first. The Fleeting Miasma build would do slightly less damage than Avalanche but with a fair chance to proc Corrosive status.

My concept is to make Miasma deal a static hit of damage at the initial cast of the ability, such that it will deal most if its damage right here. If using the duration shortened Fleeting Expertise build for -65% power duration, Miasma will work as it previously did to expand instantly and hit targets with damage, along with one or two ticks of fair status proc chance damage applied to enemies for a possibility of corrosive status.

Now let’s innovate. It could work completely differently with more power duration. How? Expansion rate of the Miasma cloud will be inversely affected by duration. Additionally, the ability will also have a cooldown component so that the ability can not be recast again until the original cast finishes. It will not affect current Fleeting Expertise builds because the ability will expand rapidly, hit for most of its damage and some status, and end instantly. So it will work about the same.

However, if the player chooses to use a positive duration build, the ability will expand more slowly, last longer in that location, and deal more ticks of minor damage for more damage and status, at the cost that it can not be cast again until the first cast ends. But this isn’t where the innovation ends. This ability will be worth the timer penalty.

Along with corrosive status, the ability will also deal a 100% guaranteed chance of its own custom status constantly to any enemy still within the slowly expanding cloud. This status can do various effects (to be decided), such as lowering enemy accuracy, with the possibility of making them vulnerable to their own friendly fire, but enemies will not purposely try to shoot each other, the friendly fire component will only come into play if they coincidentally aim through their own teammate. Also considered is a slowing effect to any enemy within the Miasma cloud.

Additionally, Saryn will be cloaked to not be seen by enemies within this cloud. The cloud can not move, so she will only be able to be cloaked within this rather small zone for the duration of the ability. Leaving this zone will leave the trap behind, at the cost of being unable to be used again until it expires.

That said, various scenarios can occur:

If Saryn is in the cloud and enemies are not, Saryn can hide within the single location of the cloud and shoot outwards.

If Saryn is in the cloud with enemies, she can attack them within without being detected. They will be in a surprised state so melee finishers are encouraged. This will encourage use of Contagion.

If Saryn is outside the cloud and enemies are within, they will try to shoot her with reduced accuracy. She can either flee or constantly circle the cloud. This can also encourage constructive use of Molt. If the friendly fire effect is chosen to be implemented, they can accidentally shoot each other.

So with a duration build, Miasma will spread very slowly to a range similar to its current range, and can not be recast until the effect ends. What is gained however is making your own small swamp which can be either be used to fight within or used to escape from.

The balance: if using a Fleeting build, the player can put out damage and minor crowd control in the same old quick and dispensable form. If a power duration build is used, the ability becomes persistent to alter the environment, but at the cost that its DPS decreases since the majority of the damage has been expended and the ability is incapable of being cast again until the initial iteration ends. A loss in damage is exchanged for protection and support.


Corrupt mod balance:

Fleeting Expertise is used as a modifier. The ability will adopt a very different behavior as duration is gained or lost. Damage calculations can be partially based off the old formula’s methods for balance.

Blind Rage can be used to amplify some portions of the ability. While not yet decided as to which portions and how many, possible inclusions are the magnitude of slowdown effect and enemy inaccuracy. So power strength can be considered as an increase to the density of the cloud.

Narrow Minded would increase the duration at the cost of decreasing the range. The offensive nature of the persistent phase would be largely lost since not many enemies will be affected, but the protective portion is maintained by acting to cloak Saryn in that range, and maybe potentially a teammate, depending on how the rework is implemented.

Overextended would amplify the amount of enemies affected by spreading the range, but supportive effects will be harmed by the loss in power strength. Less enemy slowdown and inaccuracy, this can be seen as using a more dispersed, less dense fog.

 

Draft 00

K.I.S.S. = Keep It Simple, Silly.
This early draft is here to pass along the concept, and fix the problem as easily as possible.An early draft must be released because the problem is serious.

It may as well work identically to Frost's Avalanche.

1500 Corrosive Damage (scaled off power strength)
15 meters (scaled off power range)
Remove the duration calculation

As uncreative as it is, this early draft fixes the major problem of Saryn breaking all her skills because this one destroys itself with duration. Later drafts will experiment with concepts such as expansion. The new Nova patch has shown an effective, entertaining way of applying effects in a large area by dispensing it over time. Great work!

>>>Priority: 4-High

>>>>Reason: It is a tier 4 ability with a cost of 100. For most warframes, it should be a skill to be used when it is desperately needed, and a skill that is very helpful. It definitely needs a change to synchronize with her other three abilities, but it can also stand to do better to cover the warframe's lack of protection, or her lack of range, or her lack of crowd-control compared to other warframes However, these problems can also be addressed in other ways, and in other abilities.


Miscellaneous
>Awkward Names for Venom and Contagion
>>Solutions: Swap the names between Venom and Contagion, or otherwise make them more fitting.
>>>Priority: 1-Very Low
>>>>Reason: It's an extremely minor change that doesn't effect gameplay, but in its own right some people do want this change.

This is by no means a final draft, and will be edited here in the opening post.





Below is an old, template and suggestion list from the time the thread was first posted. It is recommended you read it since it gives another view of Saryn's deficiencies.

Template:
Skill: The skill I'm addressing.
Suggestions: Simple, standard ways to address the subject.
Advanced Additions: Unique approaches that extend beyond number editing, aimed towards a more elaborate ability remake.

Note: Wonderful discussion has happened since this was first posted. The below post is my first draft of rebalancing before discussion. You may peruse the thread to see what additions and ideas our community has contributed. When I find time, I'll sum it up with the appropriate credit and post it here, keeping the original draft for archive purposes.

I recommend reading the thread, but if you're set on jumping to where our discussion reaches peak constructive potential, see here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/224577-saryn-anyone-remember-her/page-4#entry2632611

The below template is also outdated. The remainder of balance and buff concepts will use a new template which can be found in the link here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/224577-saryn-anyone-remember-her/page-5#entry2651270

Venom: decent skill, but yes it's been nerfed to a very noticeable degree. Not new player or low level friendly, so that may be another point of focus. It's cheaper than Rhino's Roar, but less effective. Mostly balanced, but many players consider her previous Venom nerf harsh enough to utterly ruin the character, hence why it is no longer played, so I can put it on the table for suggestions. Also, this ability usually needs passthrough mods to activate on most weapons effectively, which means you need to use 15 mod points from your weapon's loadout to use this ability effectively, or use a few niche weapons that are extremely underpowered.

Suggestions: Possibly instant spread on the initial target, or an increase in range, duration, or power.

Advanced Additions: Someone in the thread earlier mentioned popping spores off recently fallen enemies. It can help improve the use of this skill, but the previous Suggestions section was also adequate.



Molt: As a static decoy, it would be expected to have more health to take more hits, since statis objects like Volt's Electric Shield and Frost's Snow Globe are considerably durable. it has one third (1/3) the durability of Iron Skin, and despite the offensive nature, the range of 10m is rather small, and of what little it hits, the effect is rather inconsistent and leaves many enemies unaffected. It needs a significant buff to the offensive and/or defensive abilities of this skill.

Suggestions: More health, more range.

Advanced Additions: More Molts deployed at once (stackable), removal of negative effects from caster (done), possible toxic emanation from either the decoy or the caster.



Contagion: Easily one of the worser warframe skills in the game, and also with an excessively high point cost. 75% poison element added to only her melee weapon for 75 energy. That's all. Really?
For 25 points fewer, Loki has invisiblity and 400% damage multiplier on melee, and can use all his weapons while being safely shrouded. For the same cost, Valkyr boosts melee attack speed drastically, increases everyone's armor, and slows enemies, while also being able to use all her weapons. For 25 points more, Valkyr becomes an unstoppable melee monster that's invincible, emanates an auto-kill effect, gains health on impact (lifesteal), and with high melee damage multiplier that starts at 175% and caps at 400%. Saryn has nothing but 75% poison damage on her weapon, with no help to the team, and no additional survivability. Horrible.

Suggestions: So many, it's positively flowing from my previous description. More damage, more defense, more utility, possible team support. Simply put, it needs to do more damage, it needs to protect since this is the only melee boosting skill with no protection whatsoever, it could have additional effects, and it could help the team.

Advanced Additions: Well, this skill's so terrible I'd honestly like any kind of boost. But let's get creative, and flesh out Saryn's identity. For being offensive and elemental, maybe she should emanate toxin from herself in an immediate range throughout the duration of the skill. Like a constantly flowing World On Fire from Ember, but based on damage over time within an immediate range, not bursts of damage at a rather far range targeted at an enemy. In general, more oriented towards sustained close-distance combat.



Miasma: While the amount of damage is decent on this skill, it suffers to imbalance due to her most similar counterpart, Rhino. Miasma does more damage, but at the cost of having only a bit over half the range of Rhino's stomp, and having less than half the stun duration of the attack. Also, Rhino does double the skill damage with Stomp in his immediate vicinity, which is about half of Miasma's original range. So she's very outperformed in range, stun, and the bit of damage she gets isn't much at all. Using a negative duration build helps this ability work to better effect, but at the cost of ruining the other three abilities, making this a textbook example of a one-ability warframe.

Suggestions: See above. More range would be greatly appreciated. See this post as to why: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/224577-saryn-anyone-remember-her/page-4#entry2623931

Also, more proc chance on the corrosive element. See this post for why: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/224577-saryn-anyone-remember-her/page-3#entry2622925

Advanced Additions: A form of movement slowdown on enemies, durability decrease on enemies, accuracy decrease, damage over time.

The Closest Comparisons for Warframes

Now as for the Prime of this warframe. The closest comparison is Rhino. As I'm sure many people have noticed, his higher base speed combined with the insanely large speed boost from the vanguard helm makes him as fast as the previous fastest warframe, Loki, who was balanced by being fragile. Saryn's Hemlock helm has the same purpose, but is way less effective. Vanguard grants 25% speed boost, but Hemlock only grants 15%, and was therefore slower than the original Rhino with the helmet. Meanwhile, since the original Saryn was made to be faster than the original Rhino, the Saryn Prime if boosted in the same manner would have a base speed of 1.05. Alternatively, another form of balance in the prime can occur, such as higher energy pool, or more stamina, or more shields, or more armor, or more health. Which leads to another problem...

Rhino has higher armor, so he has more effective health (a combination of health and armor) than Saryn. But he also has very large base shield capacity, so effective health doesn't matter. But he also has iron skin, so shields don't matter. But now with the prime, he also has more speed, so he won't take as many hits so iron gold skin doesn't matter.

Next, we have Frost. He moves slowly as well, and follows Rhino's scheme of base stats. Frost also fills a similar niche of short range, high damage tier 4 ability similar to Miasma. However, while Frost also has Ice Wave for dispensable crowd control and Snow Globe from crowd control and defense, Saryn only has Molt. This decoy neither has enough health to defend well, nor does it gain appreciable attention from enemies, especially if they see you first or you shoot them. Loki players never use Decoy as their method of self defense, so Saryn shouldn't have to.

Saryn also has Contagion, which is a heavily lackluster melee ability since it offers a mere 75% poison damage to only her melee weapon. For less energy, Ash and Loki stay invisible, and gain a 400% melee multiplier on their melee weapon, but can use guns while invisible so their advantage spreads to everything they do.

For the same energy cost, Valkyr can use Warcry to boost her and her teammate's melee speed and armor, while weakening enemy armor. For a bit more energy, Valkyr can cast Hysteria and become an unstoppable melee destroyer who's invincible and gains 175% base melee boost with no power strength mods yet added. Contagion is the only melee skill in the game with no added utility otherwise.

Saryn is one of those odd warframes that feature high health and armor instead of focusing on shields. Valkyr is another warframe that follows this scheme. While Frost and Rhino (non-primed) follows a more typical shield oriented setup, they have reduced speed similar to Saryn. Generally, Rhino doesn't need a lot of protection so long as Iron Skin is maintained. Frost can stick solely with shields, but his Snow Globe ability receives additional strength due to a unique calculation that considers Frost's armor, and multiplies this value by five. Valkyr has low shields and tends to dip into her health often, but has an ability to heal herself, and also has an the ability Paralysis which does damage based on Valkyr's total shields. Meanwhile Saryn has no ability bonuses for stacking defense mods as a health defense oriented warframe that can't naturally heal or protect itself as the others can.

 

There’s also a comparison to Banshee by the intended effects of Sonar and Venom. For Banshee, Sonar is cast within 25 meters to affect all enemies by giving them a weak point, as well as mark them on player maps with radar. The ability works as it is intended from the moment it is cast. By comparison, Venom only applies to one enemy, and effort is taken by the players to use suitable weapons and aim to make it affect more enemies. The problem with Venom is that unlike Sonar, it does not work as intended when it is immediately cast, and players can muck it up in a variety of ways so the ability no longer works to any degree—one example is how [DE] Rebecca fails to trigger the ability 100% of the time used, and she tries many times to get it to work at least once.

 

Miasma is the only decent ability in Saryn’s kit, and only when the warframe is modded properly to destroy her other three abilities. This is not the first warframe that has been proven too situation to use any more than one ability: Mag is encouraged to only use Pull, and Nekros is encouraged to only use Desecrate. This hints at very poor warframe design when considering how players use it, so these warframes also need consideration in respective threads for this problem.

The Closest Comparisons for Abilities

These details are found above within the abilities rework section of the post, but are duplicated here for emphasis.

Venom is similar to Banshee's Sonar, but weaker, and only applied to a single target. Sonar starts at 500% damage multiplier and can be power strength maxed to reach 1145% damage within a starting range of 35 meters, which extends to 50.75 meters with Stretch. I understand Venom isn't as good, but the spread mechanic of passing on minor spores from the single target cast major spore is difficult enough, and the constant loss of these spores to do nothing combined with the very low proc chance per tick is too awful.

Molt is similar to Loki's Decoy, but is placed at Saryn's current position. Loki players do not rely on their decoy when they can use their cloak for the same cost that Saryn uses her Molt, and Molt is quite terrible for its primary purpose of defense due to lack of attention from enemies and its lack of health.

Contagion is a melee ability, but isn't so great in the way of comparison because it truly is the worst melee ability in the game. For less, Ash and Loki can do more. For the same cost, Valkyr does a lot more. For a bit more cost, Valkyr is unstoppable. Various suggestions have been given above.

Miasma is similar to Frost's Avalanche in range and power capabilities. The problem however is that it's affected by duration in an inverse manner, such that having more power duration harms this ability, even though it directly helps her other three abilities. Frost has 2 more abilities with a cheaper cost to serve as crowd control, but Saryn only has this ability, and most players mod her for the shortest duration possible, utterly destroying her other three skills in the process. This build is the most popular build for Saryn players, but in total, it only serves to be an inferior version of Frost/Rhino builds, which are directly better due to additional possibilities of using other abilities, and fewer mods.

The current popular build and its problems

As is heard commonly, the most popular Saryn is build a heavily duration shortened Miasma focused build. The major problem however is that Miasma is the only ability in the game that scales with duration inversely to make it better, while her other three abilities scale with duration normally.

The problem with this calculation is that it severely shortens her ability durations to become awful. Playing Saryn with what should be a balanced build makes it worse than Frost's Avalanche when it should be comparable, and while the calculation makes Miasma mildly better than Avalanche with a minimum duration build using Fleeting Expertise and the Chlora helmet, all power durations are now down to 35% of their original duration. I opt for the calculation to be removed completely, and deal static damage like Avalanche. Simple yet effective.

As for what the build does, it's quite underwhelming. Besides being compared to Avalanche, it can also be compared to Rhino Stomp. Rhino Stomp compared to Avalanche and Miasma deals identical damage within a range of 8 meters, since it inflicts two instances of damage within this range. The ability then extends to 25 meters without power range mods, and stuns for a lengthy ten seconds.

There is no way for Avalanche and Miasma to gain such a range, and coming close isn't practical either. Rhino Stomp with Stretch reaches 36.25m, but for Miasma (and Avalanche), Stretch and Overextend are required to reach a lesser 35.25m, but at a penalty of-60% power strength, it's certainly not worth it. With such a build, Avalanche and Miasma become inferior Stomp clones at the cost of wasting more mod slots. Frost players generally agree he's not meant to be a a single-purpose nuke, but a well-balanced defender. I don't see why Saryn has to sink so low.

In total, Saryn needs to be more even compared to these warframes and others, because most of her abilities aren't viable in gameplay. Compared to most other warframes, she needs a buff. And compared to her most similar analogs, she needs a SUPER buff. She's never seen, with the exception of underdog appreciators like myself. She was once decent before Damage 2.0 was released, but since then has lost her appeal.

TL;DR: Have you seen Saryn being played as often as other warframes? She's in need of buffing is why you don't. Let's bring her back up for discussion along with other rarely-seen underdogs.

 

Relevant Discussion Threads
(This section is heavily outdated as of now)

 

Warframe Powers Post U13 by PsycloneM
https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/134007-warframe-powers-post-u13/

Azamagon's Warframe Rebalancing - Saryn
Thread by Azamagon

So Lets Talk... Saryn, The Poison Princess That Barely Gets Noticed.
Thread by Synville
https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/225537-so-lets-talk-saryn-the-poison-princess-that-barely-gets-noticed/

~ Complete Saryn Ability Overhaul ~
Thread by AttackNitro

 

Saryn makes me want to facepalm

Thread by Amandis

 

Opinions on Saryn's Contagion

Thread by Magemeat

Broader, Overlapping warframe threads
Abilities 2.0 by Archwizard
https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/198866-abilities-20-retune-all-the-frames-49-now-with-trinity/

Tweaks To Some Frames by Recovery8
https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/227138-tweaks-to-some-frames/

CHANGELOG:

{[EDIT 4/30/14 7:30 EST: Additions from posters:

>Saryn balance has been a running focus since months ago.
https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/150377-upcoming-saryn-changes/

>While I have provided some ideas of my own for ability changes, countless ideas of been poured in from other users, and they are welcome as well. So take my specific ability suggestions lightly, and do browse the suggestions from users on this forum thread and the previous one as well.
]}

{[EDIT 5/1/14 1:30 EST: A more summarized version of our problem, as agreed by the community, is posted below:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/224577-saryn-anyone-remember-her/page-2#entry2607918

MechaKnight, on 01 May 2014 - 1:31 PM, said:

MechaKnight, on 01 May 2014 - 1:31 PM, said:
@Tarille: These are the same points everyone's bringing up. I can summarize what we've seen so far in a shorter form. Maybe I'll append it to the starting post.

Venom: Decent in conception, but it needs a better way to spread. People miss the old damage, but the current proc system is okay.

Molt: It doesn't hold aggro well (low threat level), and the offensive portion doesn't work well enough.

Contagion: A skill that's not only too weak, but not integrated well with any of her other skills.

Miasma: It could use more range, and more proc chance. Otherwise, okay.

Later today...: [DE]Rebecca played Saryn on livestream. She leveled her to rank 30 but not sure what she thinks of her balance. I would appreciate Rebecca's/DE's input. One can dream, right?

{[EDIT 5/2/14 1:30 EST: Yet another Saryn thread. And another. And another. I honestly should try to link the community feedback to better keep track of.

Azamagon's Warframe Rebalancing - Saryn

Thread by Azamagon

So Lets Talk... Saryn, The Poison Princess That Barely Gets Noticed.
Thread by Synville
https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/225537-so-lets-talk-saryn-the-poison-princess-that-barely-gets-noticed/

~ Complete Saryn Ability Overhaul ~
Thread by AttackNitro

Broader, Overlapping warframe threads
Warframe Powers Post U13 by PsycloneM
https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/134007-warframe-powers-post-u13/

Abilities 2.0 by Archwizard
https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/198866-abilities-20-retune-all-the-frames-49-now-with-trinity/

Tweaks To Some Frames by Recovery8
https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/227138-tweaks-to-some-frames/

All threads are worth contributing to.
]}

{[EDIT 5/3/2014 2:50 EST: Yet another list of ways to rebalance her, with better balance and in order of priority.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/224577-saryn-anyone-remember-her/page-3#entry2622925

MechaKnight, on 03 May 2014 - 2:44 PM, said:

MechaKnight, on 03 May 2014 - 2:44 PM, said:
So rethinking Saryn's skills by priority of rebalance, I have this new list:

Contagion: See my original post. It's so terribly done, a complete rework is in order. The majority of players posting here agree.

Miasma: It needs an increase in proc chance, and range. The inverse-duration component is odd, but I have a proposed solution: We should increase the proc chance significantly, so players can choose the duration they want based on the purpose of their build. A long duration will have more ticks for a better proc chance, making her a debuffer. A short duration will make her a damage-dealer, but at the cost of not being able to debuff. The original damage calculation can be kept so everyone can still use the Fleeting build, but with additional proc chance, a duration build is also useful, and different. But the range on this skill is still pitiful at only 15 meters.

Venom: Is overall decent, but players have trouble with the spore mechanic. The DE Prime Time 27 livestream showed this inefficiency in action. I propose the enemy act as a popped spore on death regardless of whether or not you popped a spore. Or you can increase the duration of the original skill to 25 seconds and keep the power duration component in the skill, or remove it.

Molt: It needs an increase in health, threat generation, and range.

{[Edit 5/5/2014 2PM EST: This thread is now going in a progressive direction towards rebuilding Saryn's ability set. See here:
https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/224577-saryn-anyone-remember-her/page-4#entry2632611

{[EDIT 5/6/14: Milestone achieved! She's in the spotlight for attention again! https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/224577-saryn-anyone-remember-her/#entry2641489

To celebrate, I'm finally putting some spoiler shorteners in this main post. Your eyes can now rest easier.

{[EDIT 5/18/14: I've overhauled the Opening Post ability template with a "Community Suggested" section. Now we can display all of those great ideas you, the community have mentioned in this thread.

{[EDIT 5/21/14: The comparisons section has been bulked up.

{[EDIT 5/23/14: Ability drafts sections added, thread name changed to reflect the progressive nature of the thread. I also moved the relevant threads section to be more visible to readers. Comparisons section bulked up further.

{[EDIT 5/27/14: Added the first major revision draft to Miasma.

 

{[EDIT 5/29/14: Another set of Miasma drafts, compacted.

 

{[EDIT 6/12/14: More comparisons added to the opening post.

 

{EDIT 6/15/14: Added more discussion threads to the thread list.

Congratulations, we have reached a milestone! Glory to Tenno!
https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/224577-saryn-anyone-remember-her/page-5#entry2641302


 

Edited October 31, 2014 by MechaKnight

[Retrikaethan]

i agree she needs some help too, but not nearly as much as ash. hopefully she's on the chopping block for this.

 

ps a tldr would help a lot XD

[MechaKnight]

i agree she needs some help too, but not nearly as much as ash. hopefully she's on the chopping block for this.

 

ps a tldr would help a lot XD

Hmm. Can try. I'll post one at the end of the post.

[Thundervision]

Too bad they closed old thread...

 

 

Great feedback and suggestions have been made in regards to Saryn:

 

·         Venom is still fairly useless as most of the enemies are dead before the full effects can take place.

·         Venom: Increase the status chance of each individual damage tick to 10% - 12.5%.

·         Molt: Upon destruction, allow Molt to detonate for 100-200 gas damage in a 10-15 m radius. Affected by power strength and range. This damage has a 50% status chance, decreases with distance, and can deal head shots.

·         Miasma: Consider making Miasma a true DPS power that scales linearly with power duration, removing the damage cap in the process. Increase the status chance of each damage tick to 25% - 50%.

 

We will continue to give each Warframe some love when the time is appropriate, thanks for everyone's thoughts!

 

Locking this thread!

by Megan.

Edited April 30, 2014 by Spectre-Agent

[SoulDust]

Saryn Prime? no thanks. And I'm pretty sure she was already buffed.

[MechaKnight]

Too bad they closed old thread...

 

 

*thread snip*

Much appreciated! Thanks for posting.

Edited April 30, 2014 by MechaKnight

[MageSkeleton]

I believe Saryn is outperformed by all the other warframes. And i had played her recently to level 30 and was happy to vender her off my available "equipable" list.

 

The "Molt" power should last longer and be stackable. I don't know of when or how it ever had "range" or any form of attacking. Another idea that would make this power feisable is to make it give off the "venom" power's effect on melee contact attackers.

 

The "Venom" power is utterly useless. By the time you put it on the ONE enemy, the other guy just shot it dead.

 

I agree with you on Miasma, it's her only redeeming quality and it still places her as the last warframe anyone would ever get to use.

 

Contaigen... Not enough was said about this power. I feel this power needs to be completely replaced with something poison related that stays as a trap. Such as setting down a mist of poison that should enemies enter take damage over time while in the mist. Having an ability like this might bring players to want to play saryn just for this type of power.

[VoidPunch]

Saryn was already buffed, she doesn't need to be look at again is great how she is now. 

[MechaKnight]

Saryn was already buffed, she doesn't need to be look at again is great how she is now. 

Then why doesn't anyone still play her? People who have understand the problem and know what I speak of. People who don't... post this.

 

It's all for the sake of balance. When a Warframe is played often, it's generally regarded as a good one, or a fun one. When it's not being played, apparently nobody finds it good or fun. This Warframe needs to find that factor again, but it's not the only warframe that has experienced this problem.

 

Take a look at the early beta updates. Many warframes were repeatedly updated as needed. When one disappears off radar, it's clear it needs a look as to why.

 

Alternatively, some warframes are overplayed. At which point, one needs to investigate why they are. Hence why rebalancing buffs and nerfs across the field--to even it out.

Edited April 30, 2014 by MechaKnight

[Shwoooop]

I tried her again for the first time in months and i really dont enjoy playing that frame atm.

Venom does barely any damage the molt esplosion damge is too low for the extra energy. Miasma feels bleh compared to how it was (pre damage 2.0)

Contagion is still mediocre.

[FinnishHim]

Interesting, well thought out post.

 

Despite some opinions opposing the idea for a Saryn buff, I support it.

 

I was really excited to play her about a month ago and when I finally did, I was pretty underwhelmed...

 

Seeing as how I'm a solo player (only team up for Void and Defenses really), it makes sense that until now I hadn't thought there was a problem with Venom. But thinking of it from a squad perspective.. it would be really frustrating and only ever get full use on a boss, maybe (though many are phased or have weak points ex. Ruk). In terms of buffing, I think that the dead-spore would be a good idea. That way, you could still pop the spores to spread the Venom to other enemies if your target was killed. Also that'd be sick because it'd give that kind of "even past death, enemies will be used against their allies" feeling.

 

I personally think Molt is fine. Maybe make it scale better to have more health, but meh. It's cool how it can copy Saryn in any position. Maaaybe have it be stackable but again, meh.

 

Contagion is the worst ability in the game at this point. Useless. I'm sorry but it's true X) I thought Melee 2.0 would herald a buff to it but it went unchanged. I personally think it should either be a 50 with 100% damage buff, or should have an effect where any struck enemy while Contagion is active would be affected by a cloud of plague (similar to Gas proc) that remains on them for a while, modded with Duration. That way, Saryn players could set up crowds to kill each other effectively if they're close together by striking many enemies instead of focusing on one at a time.

If that couldn't happen, then Contagion should just be dropped and replaced by a new ability. I was thinking something like a self-buff that covers Saryn in poisonous spines that, upon colliding with an enemy, poison them and debilitate them (either a stun or a movement speed decrease, due to the spines' neurotoxin that inhibits muscle movement). Don't misunderstand me here though, these spines would not be especially long or anything, just similar to how Iron Skin adds a layer onto Rhino. This ability, in my opinion, would keep with Saryn's offensive theme and also increase her CC while creating a risk factor - charging into a group of enemies would be risky, but straight-up colliding with them would poison and CC them and would be really fun to use. Additionally, I imagine this ability would be good for escapes too, since you could fall back while essentially eliminating the immediate threat of enemies as you pass by them.

 

Miasma seems okay to me but I haven't used it extensively. Maybe some more range would be good. Also, it disintegrates enemies. So for group play it anti-synergizes with Nekros, yet Miasma is the only good ability Saryn brings to the table in groups. Relating it to Rhino Stomp as you have, Rhino Stomp is superior to Miasma again, in this respect.

 

Good post +1

[MechaKnight]

Contagion is the worst ability in the game at this point. Useless. I'm sorry but it's true X) I thought Melee 2.0 would herald a buff to it but it went unchanged. I personally think it should either be a 50 with 100% damage buff, or should have an effect where any struck enemy while Contagion is active would be affected by a cloud of plague (similar to Gas proc) that remains on them for a while, modded with Duration. That way, Saryn players could set up crowds to kill each other effectively if they're close together by striking many enemies instead of focusing on one at a time.

If that couldn't happen, then Contagion should just be dropped and replaced by a new ability. I was thinking something like a self-buff that covers Saryn in poisonous spines that, upon colliding with an enemy, poison them and debilitate them (either a stun or a movement speed decrease, due to the spines' neurotoxin that inhibits muscle movement). Don't misunderstand me here though, these spines would not be especially long or anything, just similar to how Iron Skin adds a layer onto Rhino. This ability, in my opinion, would keep with Saryn's offensive theme and also increase her CC while creating a risk factor - charging into a group of enemies would be risky, but straight-up colliding with them would poison and CC them and would be really fun to use. Additionally, I imagine this ability would be good for escapes too, since you could fall back while essentially eliminating the immediate threat of enemies as you pass by them.

Good suggestion! Yes, that kind of Contagion revamp is both balanced and fun.

[optyk]

In particular, her closest comparison is the Rhino warframe. So a bit of discussion will take place later to compare them. In general, Saryn is less defensively inclined but more offensively inclined.

Venom: decent skill, but yes it's been nerfed to a very noticeable degree. Not new player or low level friendly, so that may be another point of focus. It's cheaper than Rhino's Roar, but less effective. Mostly balanced, but many players consider her previous Venom nerf harsh enough to utterly ruin the character, hence why it is no longer played, so I can put it on the table for suggestions.

Suggestions: Possibly instant spread on the initial target, or an increase in range, duration, or power.

Advanced Additions: Someone in the thread earlier mentioned popping spores off recently fallen enemies. It can help improve the use of this skill, but the previous Suggestions section was also adequate.

Molt: If you consider Saryn to be an offensive, faster analog of Rhino (the original, but we'll get to the prime soon), this skill needs some serious buffing. it has about half the durability of iron skin, and despite the offensive nature, the range of 10m is rather small, and of what little it hits, the effect is rather inconsistent and leaves many enemies standing. It needs a significant buff to the offensive and/or defensive abilities of this skill.

Suggestions: More health, more range.

Advanced Additions: More Molts deployed at once (stackable), removal of negative effects from caster, possible toxic emanation from either the decoy or the caster.

Miasma: While the number of damage is decent on this skill, it suffers to imbalance due to her most similar counterpart, Rhino. Miasma does more damage, but at the cost of having only a bit over half the range of Rhino's stomp, and having less than half the stun duration of the attack. Also, Rhino does double the skill damage with Stomp in his immediate vicinity, which is about half of Miasma's original range. So she's very outperformed in range, stun, and the bit of damage she gets isn't much at all.

Suggestions: See above. More range would be greatly appreciated.

Advanced Additions: Improved proc chance on the corrosive element. Or maybe a form of movement slowdown.

TL;DR: Have you seen Saryn being played as often as other warframes? She's in need of buffing is why you don't. Let's bring her back up for discussion along with other rarely-seen underdogs.

 

 

I'm lost and confused here...

 

Venom spreads like crazy when you pop the spores; which in turn lowers the DoT, but increases AoE. More weapon multishot = more Aoe and more DoT. Venom can be compared to Nyx's Mind Control GAMEPLAY -she needs teammates who dont insta-whack the CC'ed pet and Saryn needs teammates who can pop those spores. Best used in a choke point or with Vaubans CC abilities.

 

Your suggestions to it are already in place, so again, I'm lost.

 

 

Molt. Why are we comparing a deployable decoy to a self buff? Uhh wat? Ok never mind that, but Molt was brought up to par patches ago to meet Loki's Decoy. Molt used to have lower health and no shields. The reason why Molt has no 'range' is because it's Saryn 'shedding her skin'. Like a snake? Unless there are snakes out there that throw their dead skin around, I believe it gets left behind where it was shed.

 

The 'bonus' Molt has over Loki's Decoy -and this is opinion- is that you can Molt in the air or where you choose, which can make hitting the Molt Decoy a pain in the arse. Just like you can 'clip' Loki's Decoy into a object or a nice spot that has flank protection. So uhh... yeah. Same diff.

 

 

 

Miasma can be flavored 2 ways. A.Short DoT duration with a high DD nuke or B.Longer DoT and smaller DD nuke. Or you can even balance those out. STACK this power with Corrosive Projection, Nekros' Terrify(armor reduction) and throw in a Vauban for some root's or a Nyx with Chaos, and the right weapons -not the FoTM ones- and it's a fairly straight forward picture on her capability.

 

 

Your suggestions to Miasma are too late. Her range on it got lowered patches ago. It was a heart wrenching patch, but I still love her none the less.

 

 

Saryn loves chewing armor. Bring her to Grineer and Voids. Shes a frame that requires creative gameplay like Loki and others.

 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/WARFRAME_Wiki

Good luck.

[mrecentric]

i agree she needs some help too, but not nearly as much as ash. hopefully she's on the chopping block for this.

 

ps a tldr would help a lot XD

 

Disagree. I think she needs more help than Ash. I play Ash all the time but rarely play Saryn. Which is too bad, I used to like her.

[Wolfstorm18]

Venon should be renamed to Contagion, and have double the damage at maximum level. The spores released and the range of explosion should also be doubled. 

 

Contagion should be renamed to Venon, cause 100% toxin damage at maximum, and have a duration of 60 seconds at maximum. 

 

Molt should cause double the damage on explosion. 

 

Miasma should follow Saryn, like World on Fire do with Ember. Also it should have the same damage and duration of World on Fire. 

[MechaKnight]

I'm lost and confused here...

 

Venom spreads like crazy when you pop the spores; which in turn lowers the DoT, but increases AoE. More weapon multishot = more Aoe and more DoT. Venom can be compared to Nyx's Mind Control GAMEPLAY -she needs teammates who dont insta-whack the CC'ed pet and Saryn needs teammates who can pop those spores. Best used in a choke point or with Vaubans CC abilities.

 

Your suggestions to it are already in place, so again, I'm lost.

I've played those characters and honestly the only reason I mentioned venom was because in a previous thread, it was an often encountered complaint. In my opinion, I do believe it's okay, but new players or people going against lower leveled enemies definitely feel a lack of fun from the skill. To me, it doesn't need buffing but it's a consideration to some people.

 

 

Molt. Why are we comparing a deployable decoy to a self buff? Uhh wat? Ok never mind that, but Molt was brought up to par patches ago to meet Loki's Decoy. Molt used to have lower health and no shields. The reason why Molt has no 'range' is because it's Saryn 'shedding her skin'. Like a snake? Unless there are snakes out there that throw their dead skin around, I believe it gets left behind where it was shed.

 

The 'bonus' Molt has over Loki's Decoy -and this is opinion- is that you can Molt in the air or where you choose, which can make hitting the Molt Decoy a pain in the arse. Just like you can 'clip' Loki's Decoy into a object or a nice spot that has flank protection. So uhh... yeah. Same diff.

 

I also love to play Loki, he's fun. But Loki's decoy only uses 25 points of energy. As for range, you should play her or check your own wiki link to see what I speak of. It does have a range now, but not in the way you think.

 

Also, Loki's decoy syncs well with his switch teleport. Really well. Molt can be placed in the air, but it's not great. The threat level doesn't hold enemy attention that well, and placing it in the air about nullifies all of it. And as for the comparison to Rhino's self buff, these skills cost the same amount of points and are used defensively. It's okay that Saryn's is more offense oriented, but it's current iteration just doesn't contribute enough compared to Decoy or Iron Skin.

Edited May 1, 2014 by MechaKnight

[SanguineXIII]

The fact that I've forma'd my saryn 8 times now to remove all but one of her power slots and made a build to cause miasma to do the maximum amount of damage in the shortest possible time (Because increasing its duration causes it to do less overall damage now because of terrible design.) should be enough of a hint that something is wrong.  I agree with some of what you've suggested OP, but also have some alternate ideas.

 

Venom does absolutely nowhere near enough damage to ever be useful, especially now that it has had the spread mechanic severely nerfed to only spread two spores maximum to other targets on pops. My suggestion: Get rid of the whole popping mechanic altogether, simply have the spores automatically spread to any nearby targets per tick of damage and increase the chance to proc viral status so that the power is doing something useful in higher level content.

 

Molt, like OP said, has nowhere near enough survivability to actually use as a reliable distraction, I like the idea of having it remove status effects when used in addition to buffing up its gas explosion range a bit. Sounds good to me and I might actually slot it if I could quickly stop a nasty Eviscerator bleed proc.

 

Contagion, I like the AoE DoT damage suggestion, but I think if the power also simply gave half it's bonus damage to ranged weapons as well, it would see a lot more use.

 

Miasma, this power needs to have the corrosive status chance buffed up, and range boosted slightly, as you suggested. But I'd also like to see this whole "Division of total damage by total duration" change reverted, the damage and duration should scale linearly, you make it do more damage, and the longer you make it last, the more ticks of that increased damage you get, simple.

 

If this stuff gets changed, then her suggested mod setup of power strength, range, and duration would help with every power she has and we'd have a great non-flat out damage multiplier based debuffer frame.

[FinnishHim]

I'm lost and confused here...

 

Venom spreads like crazy when you pop the spores; which in turn lowers the DoT, but increases AoE. More weapon multishot = more Aoe and more DoT. Venom can be compared to Nyx's Mind Control GAMEPLAY -she needs teammates who dont insta-whack the CC'ed pet and Saryn needs teammates who can pop those spores. Best used in a choke point or with Vaubans CC abilities.

A big concern here is that squadmates will kill Venom'd targets before you have a chance to spread it with a well aimed-ish shot. Thus the suggestion to have spores remain on corpses until they vanish.

 

 

Also, to the original post, I forgot to mention that I really like the idea of having Molt take Saryn's procs off of her. It fits very well with the "Shed her skin" theme of the ability, ditching a Molt behind you along with your cold proc that was slowing you down.

[Rhiasu]

Saryn is my 3rd most played frame so here's my input.

 

Venom is not for the damage but it's there for the viral proc. It's always entertaining to see a prosecutor go from full health to 1/4 just from it. A 2s hitstun would be nice to give you that small window to pop the spores.

 

Molt's explosion range should be increased imo because it has a hitstun if it explodes. Other than that there's really not much to say here. I'm pretty content with it and the fact that you can use it while reloading without interrupting it is always nice.

 

Contagion is just...bad and is overshadowed by stealth melee multipliers. So why not just make it apply to all weapons? I don't mind the percentage going down.

 

Miasma is one of the better damage ults due to its mechanic (intended? not sure) so not gonna add anything here. 

Edited May 1, 2014 by Rhiasu

[MechaKnight]

Saryn is my 3rd most played frame so here's my input.

 

Venom is not for the damage but it's there for the viral proc. It's always entertaining to see a prosecutor go from full health to 1/4 just from it. A 2s hitstun would be nice to give you that small window to pop the spores.

 

Molt's explosion range should be increased imo because it has a hitstun if it explodes. Other than that there's really not much to say here. I'm pretty content with it and the fact that you can use it while reloading without interrupting it is always nice.

 

Contagion is just...bad and is overshadowed by stealth melee multipliers. So why not just make it apply to all weapons? I don't mind the percentage going down.

 

Miasma is one of the better damage ults due to its mechanic (intended? not sure) so not gonna add anything here. 

 

I'm responding in order of each chunk within the post...

 

Yup, I really like Saryn. Played all of the Warframes, but this one is always one I like for the play style and concept. Although the play style isn't performing as well as it should, hence this thread, and the occasional "where's Saryn" threads others sporadically post.

 

I also agree that as of currently, Venom is used for the proc. Although the remaining health is 1/2, not 1/4. Unless it procs twice in a row, when the first proc'ed debuff expires.

 

Yeah, Molt's radius should be increased. At default, it can't even reach heavy units outside their stun radius.

 

That's the easiest fix to Contagion there is, honestly. Simple but good.

 

Yeah, the mechanic is a double-edged sword. You essentially weigh your 3 other abilities' duration against that one's. However this build requires some serious forma involved to be survivable and sustainable, and the serious need for range makes you feel as though for all your effort, you're not making a good warframe better, you're just trying to cover up all the awful shortcomings it's riddled with.

Edited May 1, 2014 by MechaKnight

[Thirsty_Pickle]

As an active Saryn user, I thoroughly support the concept of a buff.

[Tveoh]

...  still have no idea what people are talking about.   Ran a mission with Two Saryns.....   and you do know we have a lot.. of players... and several frames to choose from?   Just cause you don't see a frame all that much doesn't mean others don't.   I will agree the powers need some tweeks,  but other then that.  I like Saryn,  probably start playing her again after I finish relvling my nekros.     She's a fun tank, and decoy is awesome with the gas explosion it can do now.   :3

[MechaKnight]

...  still have no idea what people are talking about.   Ran a mission with Two Saryns.....   and you do know we have a lot.. of players... and several frames to choose from?   Just cause you don't see a frame all that much doesn't mean others don't.   I will agree the powers need some tweeks,  but other then that.  I like Saryn,  probably start playing her again after I finish relvling my nekros.     She's a fun tank, and decoy is awesome with the gas explosion it can do now.   :3

Well, sometimes rare anomalies like that happen. Like an awesome prize dropping in only the first 5 minutes of survival, or someone using a similar set of colors to you. It's happened to me a few times that someone else played Saryn and it wasn't me, but it's pretty rare. Meanwhile there's stacks of Rhino and Nova around. And even with the comparably bad farming involved, Nekros, Hydroid, and Zephyr are more common than Saryn. I do like what role she fills on a team, but we both agree if she were more balanced players would pick her more often. Or at least, a few times.

[Kaokasalis]

I do think that molt and Miasma could use a range increase.

[PsycloneM]

As I said the in the previous thread: I think Saryn is in a decent spot, but I won't make the claim that she's perfect or fine as she is.

 

 

Venom is a great health-reducing power. The status chance was increased in Saryn's last balance pass; over a 15-second duration it's definitely possible for an enemy to be locked at 50% health for a majority of the time due to the current proc rate.

 

What I would like to see resolved is the difficulty in popping spores with different types of weapons. You can use Ignis or punch-through mods to make the task easier, but I personally don't think those should be required. Then you have the issue on lower difficulties where the initial target is killed within the first second, preventing the user from spreading the damage/debuffs. If these issues could be resolved, such as allowing the spores to linger on corpses for a short duration as already mentioned, Venom could be in a better spot.

 

 

For Molt, I don't really agree with the increased energy cost for the reason that the newly added offensive component is unreliable. Rarely do I see all enemies within the detonation radius damaged, even when there are no obstructions in the environment like cover or walls. Here are some examples. The worst-case scenario involved roughly 10 Infested units hacking away at the decoy, only to see 1-2 enemies damaged by the explosion.

 

Just to clarify: Molt does not deal gas damage, but toxin damage with a 100% status chance. If Molt's damage type was changed from toxin to gas with all other mechanics untouched, the toxin damage would be able to overlap and spread to multiple enemies simultaneously, depending on how close they are to one another. A gas proc inflicts toxin damage as an AoE and DoT for all enemies hurt by the initial gas damage source; the biggest change here would be how damage spreads from one enemy to another. To balance the potential increase in damage, the double damage that's dealt by Molt should it survive its duration could be removed in place of a single instance. Molt could also remove status effects when cast; I think that would be a unique, fitting, and reliable mechanic.

 

 

Contagion, for a 50-energy power, is very lacking in my opinion. The +75% toxin damage is an additive bonus that is based on your melee weapon's base damage, lasting 15 seconds. This is similar to equipping a +75% toxin damage mod on your weapon at the lowest priority slot, without actually taking up mod space.

 

Compare that to Invisibility: same energy cost, user cannot be targeted by enemies for 12 seconds, and melee attacks deal 4 times more damage. Compare this to Accelerant: same energy cost, stuns enemies in an AoE for a short duration, and increases all heat damage dealt on affected enemies by a factor of 2.5 for 15 seconds. Compare this to Electric Shield: same energy cost, provides a shield that's impervious to enemy fire for 25 seconds, and a good number of weapons receive a +50% electricity damage additive bonus and 2x critical damage bonus when fired through the shield.

 

Contagion could use some utility that helps Saryn stay in close-quarters combat for a longer period of time. I'm not set on anything in particular, but I've imagined Contagion with a paralyzing toxin aura that gradually reduces the attack/movement speed of enemies in range, or a protective aura that increases Saryn's resistance to knockdowns and damage (a toxin variant of Overheat perhaps). Without any form of utility, I really don't think Contagion is worth its cost.

 

 

Since I already have an essay going here, I'll save my critique of Miasma for later.

Edited May 1, 2014 by PsycloneM