(PSN)Veg1ta Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Removing Miasma unique damage output will be bad, yes it conflicts with her other abilities but thats what makes miasma unique. I suggest putting contagion a toggle ability, draining energy while active so negative duration mods dont have negative effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTG3000 Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Well, I simply find her close range a bit taxing without some way to regain health she lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MechaKnight Posted October 9, 2014 Author Share Posted October 9, 2014 Putting a toggle on Contagion would help with the duration mod problems, but it doesn't help how limited and boring Contagion is. Also, Venom is one of those abilities people want to use, but technical hitches within the ability and Saryn modding hold it back. An entertaining idea would be to change Venom to cost more than 25 energy in exchange for making it more capable, making her the only warframe that doesn't have a 25 energy tier 1 ability. If the devs are feeling uncreative, Contagion can be dropped down to 25 energy and become "ability #1". At which point, endgame Saryn gameplay and modding, while keeping Miasma as it is now, would be a choice between using Venom or using Miasma, with very little interest in using both abilities at once. Although this approach sounds odd, it would be a way to make Saryn better yet preserve how players perceive her uses: she can debuff with Venom, or damage with Miasma. Molt is an odd ability that sees some form of purpose regardless of duration, and Contagion is that ability everyone hates to use. I still recommend for Molt to gain the ability to harbor Venom spores on it, and spread them upon detonation. It would make the long-duration Molt more appealing, and aid Venom in the spread potential it lacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Xenomorph.Queen- Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 I really want those changes in saryn but to be fair..... DE DOESNT GIVE A FK ABOUT PLAYERS OPINION. They never read this threads or something, they never listen to players so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTG3000 Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 I really want those changes in saryn but to be fair..... DE DOESNT GIVE A FK ABOUT PLAYERS OPINION. They never read this threads or something, they never listen to players so... They do read threads. Funny thing is that they just stick with those opinions on the threads that fit their own view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MechaKnight Posted October 10, 2014 Author Share Posted October 10, 2014 (edited) The purpose of feedback threads on this forum: I really want those changes in saryn but to be fair..... DE DOESNT GIVE A FK ABOUT PLAYERS OPINION. They never read this threads or something, they never listen to players so... They do read threads. Funny thing is that they just stick with those opinions on the threads that fit their own view. I have of course considered this problem, but I think it's better to try than to not. The Oberon rework was good, but only because the community obsession with Oberon and reworking him was borderline insanity--it felt like I was reading Oberon threads for months. Many threads also popped up for Ash, Banshee, and Nyx when their reworks were announced. A lot of feedback came in for Ash and Nyx, so those came out great. Banshee, maybe less so. Even the nerfs came out better when the community was deeply invested in a warframe. The Nova rebalance made her more versatile and fun. Nyx was almost as popular, but the new Absorb at the time caused a lot of public anger, I suppose we're a bit fortunate it wasn't nerfed too hard. I worry about the Excalibur rework as threads keep appearing from players saying they're disappointed in the announced changes. Perhaps because players do not discuss Excalibur enough for devs to see their opinions on him, and players don't discuss in detail what they want from Excalibur. So here I am attempting to create and collect features for a Saryn rework that [DE] honestly may not even look at--not even the opening post. I do this for the community because it's better someone spend time on this and give the community a chance at a high-quality rework people enjoy, rather than let the chips hit the fan because DE didn't get enough feedback for how they should rework a warframe. If a Saryn rework were to be announced, new threads will pop up. Perhaps this one will inspire them, so that their included ideas and features would be great and many. That's my opinion of this thread, and life really. If you try, you may still fail. If you do not try, you will fail. At least this thread is packed with suggestions, maybe players and devs will read it. As for Saryn, the devs probably know there are odd conflicts within her ability kit. [DE]Rebecca did state it aloud during a Prime Time episode, and has played on camera once with a Fleeting Expertise build and again without any duration modifiers at all. It's likely that this staff playtime with Saryn was what lead to the debuff removal feature now present on Molt. It's more likely than not the developers are always watching the community closely. While I do not exactly like how Saryn's kit works within itself, she's not top priority for a rework. This thread has done well to bring issues and features to light, and for the most part will linger to collect ideas and observations until a rework is officially announced. Now that we're past that, time for more creative thinking. What if the Fleeting Expertise mod was removed from the game, and Streamline was made into a rank 10 mod so it could give a maximum efficiency of 55 percent? This would solve all problems in abilities relating to duration, and it would be enough to completely balance out a maxed Blind Rage. Alternatively, Streamline can have it's penalty changed to not affect duration. It would remove the contradictions within Saryn's kit, but would be more of a nerf than anything else. A rework would still be required, but it would be considerably easier to implement. Edited October 11, 2014 by MechaKnight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superbot34 Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 I use her, mostly just because of that novelty that she is rarely used. Her ultimate ability seriously needs another look because as it stands, it does almost nothing to grineer heavy units without considerable power strength, which only makes her other power useless as they cost more but deal no more effectiveness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Veg1ta Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 (edited) I use her, mostly just because of that novelty that she is rarely used. Her ultimate ability seriously needs another look because as it stands, it does almost nothing to grineer heavy units without considerable power strength, which only makes her other power useless as they cost more but deal no more effectiveness. You mean the same ultimate miasma that does bonus corrosive damage to most grineer troops? I think you should learn about how abilities work and how to best mod them before commeting on them, miasma is one if not the powerfull ultimate in the game in terms of clearing the solar system, especially grineer lol. Edited October 11, 2014 by (PS4)Veg1ta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MechaKnight Posted October 11, 2014 Author Share Posted October 11, 2014 I use her, mostly just because of that novelty that she is rarely used. Her ultimate ability seriously needs another look because as it stands, it does almost nothing to grineer heavy units without considerable power strength, which only makes her other power useless as they cost more but deal no more effectiveness. You mean the same ultimate miasma that does bonus corrosive damage to most grineer troops? I think you should learn about how abilities work and how to best mod them before commeting on them, miasma is one if not the powerfull ultimate in the game in terms of clearing the solar system, especially grineer lol. You're both right and wrong simultaneously. If you mod Saryn the way she's intended to be modded by the developers, all of her abilities are lacking in some form of effectiveness, convenience, or both. If you mod her by what may be a completely unintended bug, she is good. This is the major problem which validates a Saryn rework. The issues surrounding all four of her abilities confuses both players and developers, so people tend to sweep the mess away and not talk about it. However if the community collects ideas for how her abilities should work, the developers could eventually right this wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Veg1ta Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 No one is forcing anyone to use fleeting expertise on saryn, its a option to make miasma deal more damage quicker, you can quite easily build for duration and get to near the same damage overtime, making her other abilities more viable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MechaKnight Posted October 11, 2014 Author Share Posted October 11, 2014 (edited) No one is forcing anyone to use fleeting expertise on saryn, its a option to make miasma deal more damage quicker, you can quite easily build for duration and get to near the same damage overtime, making her other abilities more viable. This is actually wrong, read the thread. The damage loss is actually considerably large with duration. Worse, her other abilities do have problems that can make them fall flat often. Venom may not spread to other enemies depending on what weapon you and your teammates are using, along with visual bugs. Molt has very short range, line of sight, and low HP for a defensive ability. Contagion is very lackluster for a melee ability as of now, a toggle would be nice but more can also be done. Miasma varies depending on modding, which could be bad for her other abilities. As for the argument of "nobody is asking for you to use Fleeting Expertise", players do so because of how easy it is to spam abilities. This issue is covered in this thread and many others, where players have suggested even smaller efficiency caps, timers on abilities, and more. Fleeting Expertise causes problems outside of Saryn's abilities, but this warframe is one of the more dramatic examples of it. Edited October 11, 2014 by MechaKnight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Veg1ta Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Its not considerable at all in terms of where de balance the game, all of saryn abilities dont do much if anything when in late game no matter how you mod her, any enemy below lv60 id say all of saryn abilities hold up well, shes not end game but thats a different argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MechaKnight Posted October 11, 2014 Author Share Posted October 11, 2014 (edited) shes not end game This is another problem with community perspective. It's the reason Excalibur--the most widespread starter warframe--is getting reworked right now. Weapons tend to be excusable for differing amounts of ability based on their crafting requirements, mastery, where parts are found, how they are modded, and other reasons. Warframes however are clearly intended to be equal in comparison to each other. Excalibur may be a starter warframe, but if you didn't pick him at the start you'll have to wait until you reach Pluto. All of the starter warframes are picked up much later in the game, with the possible exception of Volt who was removed from the starter set and placed back months later. In general, every warframe in the game is encouraged to be used for the sake of fun. Every warframe is designed to be endgame. [DE] just tends not to change content so rapidly because they already change and add so much that the community would be frustrated if change came even more rapidly. However, that doesn't change the fact that some things should be changed eventually. Edited October 11, 2014 by MechaKnight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deruser Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Saryn definitely needs a rework. None of her abilities really scale into late game. She's actually worse than Excalibur, who at least has his radial blind. And currently, we have no idea what role Saryn fits in. Is she supposed to be a tank? A damage dealer? A crowd control specialist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MechaKnight Posted October 11, 2014 Author Share Posted October 11, 2014 Saryn definitely needs a rework. None of her abilities really scale into late game. She's actually worse than Excalibur, who at least has his radial blind. And currently, we have no idea what role Saryn fits in. Is she supposed to be a tank? A damage dealer? A crowd control specialist? Actually, I would compare her to Excalibur on more equal terms. The problem is worse in the mechanics and role position. Similar to Excalibur (until the rework), Saryn has been locked into using only one ability in her kit for most builds, like Excalibur was locked into Radial Blind. However, the problem gets more complicated when acknowledging the other three abilities. The concepts are well done, but not the execution. I can see a parallel universe where Venom, Molt, and Contagion are good, but their mechanics and values hold them back. Venom is weak by mechanics, but maybe status chance per tick can use a tiny boost. Contagion is a seriously boring, uninspired ability that's not encouraged to use frequently. Molt thankfully got better, but I can room to add applications to aid Venom as it currently stands. Miasma is odd altogether, when used as "intended" it's quite terrible. Taken out of this context it's good, but then Saryn's entire combined kit goes out the window. Saryn's stats look like a tank, but the reason isn't to ram enemies head-on like Valkyr, but to be amidst converging crowds. Venom is an ability with range, but Molt, Contagion, and Miasma are close quarters abilities. It's expected Saryn would run into the middle of a crowd as Frost does with Snow Globe (he's a stationary artillery unit who disables enemies in rows), but she would instead be turning rapidly throwing Venom, dodging periodically with Molt, using Miasma to stun the circle of enemies around her briefly, and use Contagion to get close to an enemy near her and cut it down quickly. So what you expect from her ability kit would be a version of Frost who is confined to an area similar to the area of a Snow Globe, but runs around back and forth using an evasive-offensive ability while debuffing enemies constantly and harming enemies very close to her. In short, she's a debuffer who's supposed to get into a crowd to damage them and nerf their vital stats, while being somewhat able to stay persistently in the action. The current iteration doesn't live up to that expectation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luditte Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 (edited) i wonder if molt can become like a spectre. you leave behind the old skin and it becomes a high threat melee combatant that explodes on death. Edited October 11, 2014 by Luditte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MechaKnight Posted October 11, 2014 Author Share Posted October 11, 2014 i wonder if molt can become like a spectre. you leave behind the old skin and it becomes a high threat melee combatant that explodes on death. It's been suggested, but there's no problem in saying it again! The point of the thread is to collect rework ideas. I just need to remember to periodically add them to the community suggestions list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperTechmarine Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 (edited) It's been suggested, but there's no problem in saying it again! The point of the thread is to collect rework ideas. I just need to remember to periodically add them to the community suggestions list. Or maybe it should release a poison cloud when cast? Edited October 11, 2014 by SuperTechmarine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deruser Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Actually, I would compare her to Excalibur on more equal terms. The problem is worse in the mechanics and role position. Similar to Excalibur (until the rework), Saryn has been locked into using only one ability in her kit for most builds, like Excalibur was locked into Radial Blind. However, the problem gets more complicated when acknowledging the other three abilities. The concepts are well done, but not the execution. I can see a parallel universe where Venom, Molt, and Contagion are good, but their mechanics and values hold them back. Venom is weak by mechanics, but maybe status chance per tick can use a tiny boost. Contagion is a seriously boring, uninspired ability that's not encouraged to use frequently. Molt thankfully got better, but I can room to add applications to aid Venom as it currently stands. Miasma is odd altogether, when used as "intended" it's quite terrible. Taken out of this context it's good, but then Saryn's entire combined kit goes out the window. Saryn's stats look like a tank, but the reason isn't to ram enemies head-on like Valkyr, but to be amidst converging crowds. Venom is an ability with range, but Molt, Contagion, and Miasma are close quarters abilities. It's expected Saryn would run into the middle of a crowd as Frost does with Snow Globe (he's a stationary artillery unit who disables enemies in rows), but she would instead be turning rapidly throwing Venom, dodging periodically with Molt, using Miasma to stun the circle of enemies around her briefly, and use Contagion to get close to an enemy near her and cut it down quickly. So what you expect from her ability kit would be a version of Frost who is confined to an area similar to the area of a Snow Globe, but runs around back and forth using an evasive-offensive ability while debuffing enemies constantly and harming enemies very close to her. In short, she's a debuffer who's supposed to get into a crowd to damage them and nerf their vital stats, while being somewhat able to stay persistently in the action. The current iteration doesn't live up to that expectation. +1 all the way! If we make all her abilities based around toxin, viral and gas procs, it would suit her role perfectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MechaKnight Posted October 11, 2014 Author Share Posted October 11, 2014 Or maybe it should release a poison cloud when cast? Maybe the explode effect can be changed into a lingering cloud. Such a cloud could pop spores off enemies that wander into it. A similar cloud can be applied to Contagion as well, it's all fair game. +1 all the way! If we make all her abilities based around toxin, viral and gas procs, it would suit her role perfectly. The best suggestion on the thread for gas procs was to put them on Molt. It would help the range and line-of-sight issues players periodically witness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MechaKnight Posted October 31, 2014 Author Share Posted October 31, 2014 This thread is mostly here as a record of all things Saryn, so I may as well place this rather important change to Saryn here as a record. Saryn Stealth Patch Confirmed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azawarau Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 With TF my saryn is one shotting at lvl 60-70 onany faction With blind rage shed push that number to even higher heights though its less efficient than using TF Also even with min duration molt and venom have a fair duration that can be made use of The only thing that ive foud short is contagion and thats not too troubling an issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTG3000 Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 This thread is mostly here as a record of all things Saryn, so I may as well place this rather important change to Saryn here as a record. Saryn Stealth Patch Confirmed So, what it means is that Miasma now always does same damage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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