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Saryn. Anyone Remember Her? [The Unnofficial Saryn Rework Thread]


MechaKnight
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*pure gold response*

Apologies on snipping your wonderfully written response, but to double its length just after the post was excessive. Your points are solid and great, and you clearly put the dedicated effort to see how every skill works. Also, kudos to you that you're dedicated enough to provide your info on yet another Saryn related thread. Thanks for the contribution.

Edited by MechaKnight
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Out of curiosity, what do you think of this idea for a Contagion replacement, PsycloneM?

. . .

If that couldn't happen, then Contagion should just be dropped and replaced by a new ability. I was thinking something like a self-buff that covers Saryn in poisonous spines that, upon colliding with an enemy, poison them and debilitate them (either a stun or a movement speed decrease, due to the spines' neurotoxin that inhibits muscle movement). Don't misunderstand me here though, these spines would not be especially long or anything, just similar to how Iron Skin adds a layer onto Rhino. This ability, in my opinion, would keep with Saryn's offensive theme and also increase her CC while creating a risk factor - charging into a group of enemies would be risky, but straight-up colliding with them would poison and CC them and would be really fun to use. Additionally, I imagine this ability would be good for escapes too, since you could fall back while essentially eliminating the immediate threat of enemies as you pass by them.

. . .

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I've seen some pretty wicked effects from Venom, personally. My main gripe with Saryn is that Venom and Contagion need to be name-swapped; you coat your weapons with venom, where a contagious agent will spread from target to target. Though by either name, Contagion is a pretty useless skill overall.

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I've seen some pretty wicked effects from Venom, personally. My main gripe with Saryn is that Venom and Contagion need to be name-swapped; you coat your weapons with venom, where a contagious agent will spread from target to target. Though by either name, Contagion is a pretty useless skill overall.

Contagion is definitely bad--I mean, if any Warframe's ability can be completely replaced by one weapon mod, it needs a rework. As for Venom, it's not so much how it works that's the problem as much as it is the difficulty to get it to start working. The most major problems is that an enemy is often killed before any spores pop, wasting the ability completely. Also, the desperate need of passthrough mods on weapons to trigger the spores most of the time stresses players even more--the enemy's collision boundaries and animations block/obscure the spores you need to hit. Meanwhile I can see many players not using passthrough mods on their guns; at max rank, the usual mod takes up 15 points of space.

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Saryn is currently really strong (too strong) except for her 3.  See this post: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/221049-so-saryn/?p=2563327

She's not too strong, if that's the case then why don't we see floods of room clearing Saryns, and why do we see floods of room-clearing Novas?

 

Let's bring you some perspective, citing your own post.

 

 

Saryn is currently a tankier alternative to Nova, possessing the second most powerful room-clearing 4 ability.  It is possible to get 4000 damage Miasmas for 25 energy; only Nova can top that.  

 

Nova has massive damage compared to Saryn due to Molecular Prime extending for 25 meters without mods, putting a status on each enemy within the vicinity that doubles their damage taken, halves their movement speed, halves their attack speed, and at max power, dealing nearly 2k damage per enemy exploded. With max power and stretch, she hits every enemy within 36.25 meters, massively slows them down, and doubles damage dealt, which ignores any form of armor or shields defense they have since this effect isn't affected by their defense types. The moment you get a kill on this severely movement nerfed, attack nerfed, defense nerfed enemy, you'll deal 2k damage to an enemy also taking double damage from the same status NEXT to that enemy. So that enemy will take 4k damage. Then explode for 2k damage to every other enemy also being affected by M. Prime, so if you hit 25 enemies within 36 meters radially, and they have at least 3 other enemies next to each other, for killing only 1 enemy, you deal 12k damage to each enemy in an over 36 meter radius. Using only 1 bullet. She tops everything destructively, nothing can compare.

 

 

 

Venom (1) does OK damage and is useful for Viral procs; helpful when your damage isn't up to par, such as when leveling up your weapons or Saryn herself or upper-end content. 

 

Venom doesn't even spread without a weapon using punchthrough mods like "Seeker" or "Seeking Force", which generally take up 15 mod points. Since teammates tend to kill the enemy before any spread occurs, you're usually wasting 25 energy for one enemy. Meanwhile, the viral proc deals with the organic portion of the enemy, not the armor or shields, so you still have to compete against ferrite, alloy, or shields, so the viral proc is that much less useful compared to M. Prime's super status.

 

 

 Molt (2) is a useful decoy and does sizable damage when it explodes due to its headshotting Toxin proc (think Ember's Fire Ball.)

Molt's damage is applied in an odd form--it should be radial, but as stated earlier by a user who's had extensive Saryn gameplay, this effect misses enemies despite having no obstructions. It also happens within only 10 meters, which if you actually test this, is less than the range some heavy units can stun you if you get too close. If you're comparing to Ember's fireball, she casts it for half the cost, can aim for headshots, and does sizeable damage. By comparison, Molt is a skill that rarely hits at all. Not even a crowd of Infested get adequately affected despite being pure melee attackers.

 

 

 Contagion (3) is a weak Melee boosting ability that acts as an additional Toxin mod that is affected by power strength; it is further compromised by the usefulness of low duration on Decoy and Miasma and the usefulness of Fleeting Expertise in general.

Did you even read that before you posted? Contagion's duration is also affected by mods. Shortening the duration on warframe abilities destroys Contagion, so it doesn't compliment that use of Molt or Miasma at all. And did you read my initial post? Valkyr's skill Hysteria gives her a base 175% damage multiplier, and caps at 400%. Meanwhile, Saryn starts at only 75%, and caps at 175%. With no other effects like defense, or auto-kill, or any form of team support.

 

 

 Miasma (4) is the second most powerful radial nuke in the game.  

 

The reason Miasma is so strong is that currently reducing power duration increases the damage of the skill.  Equipping max Fleeting Expertise (-60% duration) and the Chlora helmet (-5%) increases both the DPS and the overall damage of the skill, from 1875 over 4 seconds to 2571 over 1.4 seconds.  Adding a max Intensfy, max Streamline, and level 2 Blind Rage (+27% strength - 15% efficiency) will bring the skill's damage to 4036 while keeping the cost at 25 energy.  Adding a stretch mod makes this kill everything in the room until Grineer start hitting the 40s and remains effective vs the Ferrite Grineer a bit further due to its Corrosive damage type.  Even with a maxed Overextended equipped the damage is still 1800 which is enough to 1-hit kill everything in a 30 meter range in most Solar Map missions (very useful for Oxium farming on Kappa, Sedna.)

Read up above to what I said about M. Prime. That is the true nuke, not Miasma. Meanwhile, if you actually read my starting post about Rhino Stomp, he does 4k damage within half the range of Miasma, and stuns enemies for more than twice the amount of time in a nearly double large area. Also, as I said earlier, I don't like the fact that boosting Miasma by the way duration currently works makes her other skills severely worse. And I see you cited the Chlora helm. Anyone who's played Saryn knows that her slow base speed (nearly as slow as the old Rhino) was such a hindrance that there's no reason to take the Chlora helm over the Hemlock helm, even if that helm is less effective than Rhino's Vanguard helm. What does Chlora give? 10% stamina. As if we don't know how to stop sprinting and slide once.

 

Range? She's severely bad in range compared to Rhino's super-stun Stomp or Nova's ridiculously good M. Prime. So her range is awful. To be comparable, her range must be increased by at least 10m from where it's currently at, a shallow 15m.

 

And Grineer are not always ferrite. Elite lancers and most heavy units are alloy, so Saryn becomes weak against many grineer units. And Corrosive from Miasma doesn't proc, so it can only be used against Ferrite units. And it's probably still decreased by armor.

 

And you're comparing the damage of this skill to low-leveled, weak Ospreys in Kappa? Apparently you don't play much endgame either.

 

As I tell all who post valuable contributions on this thread, thank you for posting. While you're mistaken and misinformed, you've served as a catalyst to bring yet more flaws to light.

Edited by MechaKnight
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I really agree that Saryn's abilities are weak for end game. If I run T3 survival with all of her abilities equipped, I don't last very long.

 

But if I do a one trick pony build with just Miasma, I can hold my own for at least 40 minutes. The sad part is that I only use Miasma to destroy groups of pesky shield drones. I never use it for damage against anything else.

 

Which brings me to the point that Saryn's stats are good but abilities, not really.

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She's not too strong, if that's the case then why don't we see floods of room clearing Saryns, and why do we see floods of room-clearing Novas?

 

Let's bring you some perspective, citing your own post.

 

 

Nova has massive damage compared to Saryn due to Molecular Prime extending for 25 meters without mods, putting a status on each enemy within the vicinity that doubles their damage taken, halves their movement speed, halves their attack speed, and at max power, dealing nearly 2k damage per enemy exploded. With max power and stretch, she hits every enemy within 36.25 meters, massively slows them down, and doubles damage dealt, which ignores any form of armor or shields defense they have since this effect isn't affected by their defense types. The moment you get a kill on this severely movement nerfed, attack nerfed, defense nerfed enemy, you'll deal 2k damage to an enemy also taking double damage from the same status NEXT to that enemy. So that enemy will take 4k damage. Then explode for 2k damage to every other enemy also being affected by M. Prime, so if you hit 25 enemies within 36 meters radially, and they have at least 3 other enemies next to each other, for killing only 1 enemy, you deal 12k damage to each enemy in an over 36 meter radius. Using only 1 bullet. She tops everything destructively, nothing can compare.

 

 

Venom doesn't even spread without a weapon using punchthrough mods like "Seeker" or "Seeking Force", which generally take up 15 mod points. Since teammates tend to kill the enemy before any spread occurs, you're usually wasting 25 energy for one enemy. Meanwhile, the viral proc deals with the organic portion of the enemy, not the armor or shields, so you still have to compete against ferrite, alloy, or shields, so the viral proc is that much less useful compared to M. Prime's super status.

 

 

Molt's damage is applied in an odd form--it should be radial, but as stated earlier by a user who's had extensive Saryn gameplay, this effect misses enemies despite having no obstructions. It also happens within only 10 meters, which if you actually test this, is less than the range some heavy units can stun you if you get too close. If you're comparing to Ember's fireball, she casts it for half the cost, can aim for headshots, and does sizeable damage. By comparison, Molt is a skill that rarely hits at all. Not even a crowd of Infested get adequately affected despite being pure melee attackers.

 

 

Did you even read that before you posted? Contagion's duration is also affected by mods. Shortening the duration on warframe abilities destroys Contagion, so it doesn't compliment that use of Molt or Miasma at all. And did you read my initial post? Valkyr's skill Hysteria gives her a base 175% damage multiplier, and caps at 400%. Meanwhile, Saryn starts at only 75%, and caps at 175%. With no other effects like defense, or auto-kill, or any form of team support.

 

 

Read up above to what I said about M. Prime. That is the true nuke, not Miasma. Meanwhile, if you actually read my starting post about Rhino Stomp, he does 4k damage within half the range of Miasma, and stuns enemies for more than twice the amount of time in a nearly double large area. Also, as I said earlier, I don't like the fact that boosting Miasma by the way duration currently works makes her other skills severely worse. And I see you cited the Chlora helm. Anyone who's played Saryn knows that her slow base speed (nearly as slow as the old Rhino) was such a hindrance that there's no reason to take the Chlora helm over the Hemlock helm, even if that helm is less effective than Rhino's Vanguard helm. What does Chlora give? 10% stamina. As if we don't know how to stop sprinting and slide once.

 

Range? She's severely bad in range compared to Rhino's super-stun Stomp or Nova's ridiculously good M. Prime. So her range is awful. To be comparable, her range must be increased by at least 10m from where it's currently at, a shallow 15m.

 

And Grineer are not always ferrite. Elite lancers and most heavy units are alloy, so Saryn becomes weak against many grineer units. And Corrosive from Miasma doesn't proc, so it can only be used against Ferrite units. And it's probably still decreased by armor.

 

And you're comparing the damage of this skill to low-leveled, weak Ospreys in Kappa? Apparently you don't play much endgame either.

 

As I tell all who post valuable contributions on this thread, thank you for posting. While you're mistaken and misinformed, you've served as a catalyst to bring yet more flaws to light.

All your post says is "Saryn is underpowered because she isn't popular" and "Saryn isn't as good as Rhino or Nova so she's weak."  And then you imply that "endgame" is infinite content.  Frame abilities should not be as strong as Nova's and in general frames shouldn't be as rewarding to sloppy gameplay as Rhino is.  These are outliers that should not be used as a standard of balance.  Infinite content should also not be a standard of balance, and will not be.  

 

You also misunderstand the part of my post about Contagion where I say it is weak, and are incorrect about punch-through being necessary to spread Venom procs (higher quanities of bullets such as from a shotgun or high RoF weapon are ideal but the hit detection for spores remains inconsistent across all weapon choices, especially with the host-client disparity.)

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All your post says is "Saryn is underpowered because she isn't popular" and "Saryn isn't as good as Rhino or Nova so she's weak."  And then you imply that "endgame" is infinite content.  Frame abilities should not be as strong as Nova's and in general frames shouldn't be as rewarding to sloppy gameplay as Rhino is.  These are outliers that should not be used as a standard of balance.  Infinite content should also not be a standard of balance, and will not be.  

 

You also misunderstand the part of my post about Contagion where I say it is weak, and are incorrect about punch-through being necessary to spread Venom procs (higher quanities of bullets such as from a shotgun or high RoF weapon are ideal but the hit detection for spores remains inconsistent across all weapon choices, especially with the host-client disparity.)

To sum up my previous posting in such a hasty, misaligned fashion that misrepresents the case is the definition of slander.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/slander?s=t      i.e, "a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report." Also, I wasn't even considering comparing Saryn to Nova until you did. Now I have another warframe to compare to. Since you say that Rhino and Nova are exceptions, and since I've said earlier that other warframes also have problems of being lackluster compared to more often used warframes, my claim stands until both Nova and Rhino are balanced down, or Saryn is balanced up. As for other underperformers, those are for other threads.

 

And I suppose I did misread your comment for Contagion. Yes, we are in agreement about how contagion becomes even less favorable when maximizing the output of Molt and Miasma. However, even when scaling with power, it is a very weak ability that is in need of a major buff.

 

Yes, that's the general consensus for how Venom spreads, but I wasn't wrong about punch-through mods. They do have a noticeable effect on how well venom spreads, since the hitbox you need to hit may be covered by another one you're not aiming for. As for host-client disparity, it's a general issue that affects venom and other things, but the community generally agrees that venom is not easy to spread.

Edited by MechaKnight
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I don't see many Saryn's very often... Just 1 or 2 every few days but I do play her a fair bit - I'll just opine on her skills:

 

Venom - 

 

The damage is bad. It really doesn't hold up to any sort of decent level, even more so when you're popping them to spread them. BUT the decent status chance and Viral proc is very useful - It's very likely that a target of Venom will be affected by the -50% health proc, popping a few spores can also cover an area with said proc too.

 

Downsides are that the damage is pretty bad (But that's par for the course for non-scaling abilities), the spores can be awkward to pop without Punch Through weapons (Even then, you risk outright killing targets that aren't level 35+) and a infected enemy can die and lose all the spores with no chance to spread.

 

I think that the status chance does make up for the lack of damage - Since often the Viral proc is way more damaging than most abilities can be (Especially on heavy targets). But I think there needs to be some tweaks to the popping of the spores - Things like auto-popping when the host dies would help cover targets dying prematurely as well as the Punch Through issue (As it means you can just aim to kill the target before Venom times out to spread it acting sort of like a debuffing version of Molecular Prime)

 

Molt -

 

It doesn't last long enough to be an effective tank (Nor does it seem to have as good aggro generation as Decoy) and it's damage is dealt very strangely. When it works, it's amazing but often it doesn't.

 

I think that the damage needs to be applied better - So it hits all targets in range rather than being awkward and hitting some and missing others. Having more aggro would also help it be a bit more of a defensive option whilst also being better offensively (Enemies will be more likely to go attack it rather than ignore it and run away to chase someone else down)

 

Having it deal Gas damage with a high status chance would also be pretty darn nice (Both for effectiveness and versatility of the Frame as a whole)

 

Shedding debuffs would be thematic way of further increasing defence in a different way to flat damage reductions.

 

Contagion -

 

Is not very strong, the damage increase is rather low, it's cast time makes it awkward to use mid-fight (Especially with melee 2.0's short window combo's)

 

I just don't see where this skill fits in either, a melee damage buff just doesn't mesh well with Venom (A skill requiring precision targeting to make use of), Molt (A distraction that tends to favour having distance between you and it) and Miasma (A PBAoE skill that likely surpasses melee for most builds - Especially when full on efficiency allowing multiple uses without running out of energy)

 

I'd just rather have this skill completely reworked/replaced. Possible replacements include:

 

- Toxin damage aura, assisting in melee combat by constantly weakening enemies.

 

- Mobility move culminating in a damage effect, based of the strike of a snake - The ability to dash forward and inflict a damaging attack (Be it AoE or a melee attack or something) allowing melee combat to be entered more easily, it also can be used to set up effective Miasma usages as well as potential use for escape (Something like Molt > Dash away could end up being an effective way of escaping an otherwise deadly situation) - This would increase the tankiness of the frame whilst also making it so that the speed difference of other frames isn't so crippling (Also, makes Rhino not as ridiculous when it comes to mobility in comparison)

 

- Toxin DoT effect that has the chance to spread to nearby targets with each tick - Further cementing the role of the Tank-mage. The ability to weaken crowds with Toxin damage from a distance would combine very well with Venom's Viral proc to lower health pools (Making shield ignoring Toxin damage more effective and making damage in general more effective) and goes well with Miasma's great AoE stopping power - Allowing the combination of all skills to effectively decimate hoards of enemies but over time rather than instantaneously.

 

Miasma - 

 

A rather strong skill, but could be improved.

 

It would be nice if this scaled better with Duration (At the moment, more duration lowers total damage and less duration increases total damage - This seems backwards) and it would be great if it had a higher status chance - Having the Corrosive debuff reliable to activate and thus stack up would really help this ability scale when skills damage output starts to drop off in effectiveness.

 

Increased range to be on par with other Frames AoE abilities also wouldn't go amiss...

 

But yeah, Saryn has great potential and with just a few tweaks could become an incredibly solid frame to use at all levels of content.

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@Tarille: These are the same points everyone's bringing up. I can summarize what we've seen so far in a shorter form. Maybe I'll append it to the starting post.

 

Venom: Decent in conception, but it needs a better way to spread. People miss the old damage, but the current proc system is okay.

 

Molt: It doesn't hold aggro well (low threat level), and the offensive portion doesn't work well enough.

 

Contagion: A skill that's not only too weak, but not integrated well with any of her other skills.

 

Miasma: It could use more range, and more proc chance. Otherwise, okay.

Edited by MechaKnight
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Those all are very good points you have there, and I would like to add my own suggestions to this thread.

 

I can't say that I main Saryn, but she was one of my first frames, and I enjoy playing her, so here is my idea - her kit could be based around interacting with Venom, in such a way:

 

Venom: pretty much same as it is currently, it's a pretty good skill as it is for DoT and a little bit of AoE. I think it could be fun to have a 5/10/15/20% chance to spawn a new pustule on enemy that got caught in the AoE, but that's just me liking chain reaction skills.

 

Moult: changed to have more health. As saryn is exiting the moult, she is cloaked for a short (really short) amount of time, to reset aggro. The change I would suggest is to allow Venom to be cast on moult, effectively charging it up with pustules that last while the decoy does, exploding as soon as the decoy is destroyed, wether by the timer or enemies, dealing AoE damage and staggering the enemies.

 

Contagion: Gives Saryn an aura, that increaces DoT Venom pustules around her cause. Additionally, attacking enemies with melee while Contagion is active has up to 20% chance to plant a pustule in them, as well as exploding the existing ones, healing Saryn based on the damage done (DoT+the explosion), giving her ability to be the healthtank she tries to be.

 

Miasma: Every pustule caught in miasma explosion detonate, creating explosion for 1/4th of the ability range and half the damage, doubling the chance to spread Venom.

 

Maybe this kit wouldn't appeal to dedicated saryn Players, though, but I certainly think that at least exploding Venom with Miasma could be implemented.

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I don't have anything to add to the discussion other then it would be nice to see her get a buff. I used to play with this frame routinely but it just seemed to begin lagging behind the other frames and now I don't really see it being used on higher level planets.

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I use Saryn all the time, but only two versions of her. The first is Fleeting Saryn, giving me a lot of use for her ult and and molt. With the right damage mods, I can get 2600-3000 damage on ult in two ticks (only 2 ticks total) on enemies with regular resistance to corrosion, with 6k damage to enemies without corrosion resistance. Molt's low lifespan also helps throw in some good and quick damage. I also use Continuity contagion Saryn since melee 2.0, dealing out some pretty good damage.

 

But hey, I'm all up for buffs to her. Only reason I make her work is because of corrupted mods. Take those away, and she's not all that great.

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I use Saryn all the time, but only two versions of her. The first is Fleeting Saryn, giving me a lot of use for her ult and and molt. With the right damage mods, I can get 2600-3000 damage on ult in two ticks (only 2 ticks total) on enemies with regular resistance to corrosion, with 6k damage to enemies without corrosion resistance. Molt's low lifespan also helps throw in some good and quick damage. I also use Continuity contagion Saryn since melee 2.0, dealing out some pretty good damage.

 

But hey, I'm all up for buffs to her. Only reason I make her work is because of corrupted mods. Take those away, and she's not all that great.

 

Actually, the Fleeting build is just as viable on Rhino, but better--which is part of the problem. My Rhino Prime does nearly 2k Blast damage in 36.25 meters with more than twice Saryn's Miasma stun, with 3.6k damage in half the range of Miasma's original range, with 2748 Ferrite protection on Iron Skin, while also being the fastest character on the field, while having insanely high shields, and even with an extra slot left over to use for just about anything. And we both know Molt is nowhere near as good as Iron Skin for defense, and it's all over this thread that it's not doing well offensively either.

 

So not only does Saryn need corrupted mods to feel decent, but the same build on Rhino surpasses her in every way. it's okay if Rhino can be considered the anti-corpus tank warframe, but the fact that he's purely better in every respect is awful.

 

As for Continuity Contagion Saryn, just use Continuity Invisibility Loki. More defense, more stealth, more speed, more damage.

Edited by MechaKnight
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Thanks for the contribution.

 

Hey, no problem. With another balance pass in the works, it's nice to see these forums ignite with discussion. I agree with most of the points made here: Saryn could use further review to improve the reliability, utility, and efficiency of her powers.

 

 

I think it's great that Saryn is capable of inflicting so much corrosive damage with Miasma in a short amount of time with the proper loadout; I despise the fact that this requires minimum duration that effectively reduces the usefulness of the rest of her powers. You could argue that Molt is better off with minimum duration purely for the double damage mechanic; but as I mentioned before, I think that mechanic should be removed in favor of a damage type change and utility addition (such as the removal of status effects).

 

Don't get me wrong. I understand that corrupted mods have penalties, and that I don't have to go the route of equipping Fleeting Expertise and Chlora if I don't want to. Yet, why is it that when I equip a standard duration mod with no inherent penalties, like Continuity, Miasma's total damage has to suffer for it?

 

As far as I'm concerned, Miasma is the only power in the game with this sort of counterintuitive mechanic. You could argue that Energy Vampire is similar; increasing power duration causes the energy restoration rate to decrease. The similarities end there: you still receive a total of 100 energy over the duration.

 

What trade-offs are there for using an increased-duration build for Miasma? The initial stun is unaffected by power duration, so you do not improve the CC component. Miasma does not have a status chance, so you do not increase the probability of reducing a target's armor by a multiplicative 25% for each stack. The only trade-off is that Saryn's powers will last longer, which is in my opinion not worth the damage loss.

 

I'm not against the mechanic of duration affecting the DPS of Miasma, but I am against duration affecting the total damage. With Saryn's last update, the change to Miasma allowed players to utilize certain corrupted mods that previously had no benefit for Saryn. I certainly wouldn't want to suggest taking that away from anyone, especially those who have used forma specifically for a minimum-duration build.

 

 

One suggestion that I have for this power is to reevaluate the damage calculation, allowing total damage to be unaffected by power duration.

 

Currently, Miasma's damage per tick is calculated by the following expression at max level:

 

1500 / ( power duration ) = DPS.

 

As damage values are rounded down when displayed, the same has to be done here. To calculate the total damage, you use this expression:

 

rounded DPS x ( 1 + power duration ) = total damage.

 

The "1" is what's causing the disparity. At base duration, Miasma ticks a total of 5 times over 4 seconds, inflicting 375 damage per second for a total of 1875. With -60% power duration, that's 2.6 ticks (results in a reduced damage tick) over 1.6 seconds, inflicting 937 damage per second for a total of 2436.

 

 

I suggest the following expressions:

 

2250 / ( 1 + power duration ) = DPS,

 

rounded DPS x ( 1 + power duration ) = total damage.

 

I'm not sold on the total damage, but I think anywhere between 2000 and 2500 would be sufficient as compensation for the current minimum-duration Miasma users. So with these expressions, a base-duration Miasma would tick a total of 5 times over 4 seconds, inflicting 450 damage per second for a total of 2250. With -60% power duration, that's 2.6 ticks over 1.6 seconds, inflicting 865 damage per second for a total of 2249. The difference of "1" damage could be handled by the reduced damage tick. Currently, reduced damage ticks are not displayed, so a fix for that would be helpful.

 

 

Adjusting that expression to ensure that total damage remains constant, while increasing the total damage so current minimum-duration Miasma users are not hit with a significant damage loss could allow players to experiment with a greater variety of builds. If someone wants to go maximum duration, Miasma's DPS will be very low, but at least it will inflict the same amount of damage.

 

 

As for the utility, I think Miasma can do better.

 

The generic CC + radial damage formula for an ultimate is used by nearly half of all warframes. I don't see a good reason why Saryn cannot have her own unique utility that fits her character. The most common suggestion I've seen is to boost the status chance. Considering that Venom is a great health reducing power, Saryn could fill the niche of being an armor/health debuffer. With a good status chance, the stacking armor reduction that's applied would allow Miasma to be useful against alloy-armored targets. As the damage becomes insufficient, the reduced-armor effects will still be useful for your weapons and allies.

 

I've seen other suggestions such as changing Miasma into a lingering cloud (with good transparency and all other damage mechanics intact), periodically stunning enemies caught inside for the duration. Miasma could be a decent trap and area-denial power.

 

There are plenty of possibilities.

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So Rebecca played Saryn and just got it to rank 30. She did notice how the skills worked, but not sure what their opinion is. They hinted at a possible change at how Saryn works. Barely, but at least it was on the radar.

 

We'll have to wait until the weekly Hot Topics sweep to see if this thread and the other Saryn rebalance threads were noticed. And of course, other warframe rebalance threads.

Edited by MechaKnight
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So since the small [DE] community manager play session, they know Miasma is wonky. However, looking back in the previous thread conversation, we've established that Rhino Stomp is just too good compared due to double immediate damage, more than twice the stun, and about twice the range.

 

As PsycloneM stated above, we like Miasma's damage, but the way it scales inversely with time is problem because it ruins synergy with her other abilities. I recommend the duration component be removed, but the damage be compensated for possible loss. But better yet, I'd prefer more range and stun duration, since that's honestly the biggest lacking Miasma currently has. We'd also like an increase in Miasma's proc chance. Miasma doesn't proc when it'd be far more functional if it did, meanwhile I see Rhino Stomp proc blast damage.

 

Also noted is [DE]Rebecca didn't use Contagion. Nobody does. I'm all in favor of a revamp, full fresh-start on that skill.

 

Molt and Venom did okay, but that doesn't change the fact that Venom doesn't spread easily (there were struggles with that in the livestream), and Molt really doesn't scale so well in higher levels where oddly, the poison doesn't proc, and only really works on pure melee fighters within a short 10m.

 

That's the problem in a nutshell. Our thread is full of fabulous fix suggestions, and other threads as well.

 

At the bottom of my original post, I'll locate and help cross-link community threads as seen fit, because we're all out for the same goal: find adequate balance for Saryn so people will play her, because she doesn't compare well to often-played currently released warframes

 

Here's one I found now. It will be cited in the original post, and I give full express permission to cite this thread here in any Saryn balance related threads.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/225537-so-lets-talk-saryn-the-poison-princess-that-barely-gets-noticed/

By Synville

Edited by MechaKnight
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ehm there is quite a number of thread on Saryn recently and I need to say a little something

 

Globally I think just like someone said that she is not in a bad place but could get some tweak, she doesn't need to be more viable but maybe a little bit more interesting to play at most.

I won't put ideas since there are already a lot of good ones in this thread and others

 

 

Now the important part, It is only my opinion but I'm not kidding, I'm serious

I don't want Saryn to be more popular because she'd get buffed, I want people to play Saryn because they like the frame, thus I wouldn't mind if Saryn kept her current state.

The worst of the worst case for me would be that she become popular common like a certain big frame.

 

Also I guess there are disparities between regions because in mine Saryn occasionnally pop out around the same as volt and vauban (vauban having justifiable reasons) second to last but not that rare, rarest being Banshee. Anyway because of that when I see a Saryn I know that the guy [probably] appreciate her.

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ehm there is quite a number of thread on Saryn recently and I need to say a little something

 

Globally I think just like someone said that she is not in a bad place but could get some tweak, she doesn't need to be more viable but maybe a little bit more interesting to play at most.

I won't put ideas since there are already a lot of good ones in this thread and others

 

 

Now the important part, It is only my opinion but I'm not kidding, I'm serious

I don't want Saryn to be more popular because she'd get buffed, I want people to play Saryn because they like the frame, thus I wouldn't mind if Saryn kept her current state.

The worst of the worst case for me would be that she become popular common like a certain big frame.

 

Also I guess there are disparities between regions because in mine Saryn occasionnally pop out around the same as volt and vauban (vauban having justifiable reasons) second to last but not that rare, rarest being Banshee. Anyway because of that when I see a Saryn I know that the guy [probably] appreciate her.

 

It may honestly be a few big, explosive frames that make the base of warframe popularity so uneven. Saryn does need a bit of tweaking, but with some up-and-down rebalancing, every warframe will eventually be nearly equal to the point of only incomparable qualities remaining, which are okay since they can't be directly compared to do the same thing.

 

I think the biggest thing everyone agrees with is Contagion is the least motivating skill we've ever seen. And anyone who's played Rhino and Saryn know that the big lug stacks more defense, offense, support, and modability to insane levels. But yeah, I'm sure a lot of people feel like that.

 

There is possibly a region disparity to which warframes are played more often. I mean, just because a warframe has a somewhat higher population amongst players doesn't mean it's directly overpowered, but it should be investigated as to whether it is. And Rhino and Nova as of current release are comparably strong to the rest.

 

Volt's somewhat rare too, but I'd test him more before I make a thread, and there are quite a few Volt threads that are making fine suggestions, I can get to those later. Also, Banshee is in need of some tweaks, but from the [DE] staff list of things in progress, Banshee is being considered. A few others too, but Saryn's not on the list yet. We just balance the game as time goes on.

 

Edit01: Hot Topics thread for the week is up. No mention of 'frame balances in this one, but here's to hoping that's still being done.

 

Edit02: The Hot Topics thread has mentioned helmets. That's part of the imbalance concerning this warframe and others, but I have no idea how DE will implement the changes.

Edited by MechaKnight
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Saryn is fun to play because she's both very offensive and tanky but I agree with most of what has been said.

I also think venom and contagion should switch names.

Teammates should be able to pop spores.

Contagion should cause all weapons to have a corrosive dmg with somewhat highish proc chance. In fact make it a team skill... Anyone within X range of Saryn when she casts it will receive the buff for X secs. Why stop there!... give affected frames a corrosive pulse for the duration too!

Miasma is weaker than stomp in a number of ways... but with a spammable fleeting build its pretty powerful. I think it should be left alone. The way it works is fairly unique and if left that way would balance well with the other abilities (getting buffed) since they rely on duration.

All of this would integrate Saryn into the team and make her more fun to play. Essentially an offensive buffing frame.

Edited by mooser6
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Miasma is not weaker than stomp damage-wise; idk how people arrived at the conclusion.  With a 57%/75% strength/efficiency build Stomp costs 25 energy and does 2512 damage immediately around Rhino and 1256 in the rest of the radius.  With the same build Miasma costs 25 energy and does 4036 damage in the full radius.  Stomp is a better crowd control skill as it immobilizes enemies for 8 seconds and knocks them down afterward for an additional second or two of disable; Miasma only staggers enemies for 4 seconds.  However, Miasma can be spammed while Stomp cannot be recast until all afflicted targets are killed or have recovered.  Lastly, Stomp has much more range than Miasma, bringing it ahead decisively for crowd control but it is not a better nuke in any way.  Stomp is a CC ability that does decent damage at close range while Miasma is a damage ability that has an additional stagger effect.  Stomp's Blast damage is also ineffective vs Ferrite while Miasma is super effective vs Ferrite and has a small chance to proc against Alloy as well. 

 

 

Teammates should be able to pop spores.

Already possible.  In fact, if you use Venom once and Chaos the enemies can infinitely pop the spores on each other until there is only one left standing.

Edited by RealPandemonium
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 Saryn is press4towin in all of the 'normal' game. You can walk around and do nothing but press 4 with Fleeting build. Its easy and boring (and it probably upsets others as much as a spammy Nova if not more)

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