Saryn. Anyone Remember Her? [The Unnofficial Saryn Rework Thread]

[MechaKnight]

I updated the opening post. The comparisons section has been enlarged and refined. Suggestions for Saryn ability fixes are now pretty fleshed out too. If there's more you want to suggest that isn't there, feel free to post.

[MechaKnight]

I’m sure most of us agree that Contagion is an awful ability to use as of now, but let’s get constructive. It seems that the most popular suggestions as to how to fix Contagion is to use a derivative of the old Overheat. I will consider this retired ability along with current in-game warframe melee abilities of similar nature to come to an agreeable conclusion.

 

The most ideal comparison for a melee ability to start with as a base is Valkyr’s Warcry, with consideration of Ash’s and Loki’s melee bonus limits. It has the same point cost as Contagion, and is accepted as a balanced melee ability.

 

At base, the bonuses this ability contributes are:

50% ally speed buff

50% ally armor buff

30% enemy debuff

The ability has a 25 meter range, and lasts for 15 seconds. It costs 75 energy.

 

Compared to Contagion’s single 75% poison damage for 20 seconds, it’s far superior. I’ll do my best to approximate these bonuses to Saryn, and find some alternatives.

 

Our community seems to want most of all, damage reduction and toxic emanation from Saryn, which is definitely within the domain of Overheat. However, this ability was retired, due to the nature of the warframe it was applied to, and possible imbalance. I’ll list the bonuses just the same. The bonuses are:

 

200 fire damage within 0.5 meters of the caster (not scaled off power strength or power range)

40% damage reduction (scaled with power strength)

For 20 seconds (scaled off power duration), for a cost of 50 energy.

 

That’s Overheat. Clearly it confers a bonus for being close to enemies, but it did not give incentive to be close all the time or perform melee, so players just put it on for protection and kept using guns. A true melee ability has to have melee incentive.

 

I’m pretty sure 50 energy is too cheap for what Overheat did, so 75 energy is the first adjustment.

 

Secondly, it goes without saying the fire damage will be changed to toxin, but to make this ability appeal to melee, it must be merged with Valkyr’s Warcry to give this ability melee incentive.

 

The damage reduction should also scale with power, but the base amount needs to be discussed for balance. Alternatively, we can go the route of buffing armor, similar to Valkyr’s Warcry. The following discussion will compare the warframes, assuming maxed Vitality, Steel Fiber, and Redirection is worn by both.

 

Let’s consider Valkyr first.

 

She has 600 base armor, and 100 base health. She will gain an additional +200 HP at rank 30.

 

The calculation for effective health points (EHP) is:

Effective Health = Base Health * (1 + (Armor / 300))

 

So Valkyr has with maxed Vitality and Steel Fiber: 3848 EHP, plus 370 shields with Redirection, she will have 4218 points of damage resistance.

 

While under the effect of Warcry, at base power strength she will have 5402 effective health.

She will have a mild 370 shield afterwards.

This totals to 5772 points of damage resistance.

 

If Warcry is maxed in power strength, Valkyr will have 7406.66 EHP, and the shields will bring her damage total to 7776 points.

 

Saryn has more health points, but lower armor. Her base EHP with Vitality and Steel Fiber is: 2314.35 EHP, with 740 shields on top, she will take 3054 damage before she gets floored.

 

With Warcry at base, she has 2916.525 EHP, and with power strength maxed Warcry, she has 3693.33075 EHP, and with 740 shields on top, 4433 damage.

 

Saryn with this armor boosting scheme will have 57% Valkyr’s damage limit before getting floored. To approach this limit, the armor multiplier needs a significant buff, but the only reason why Valkyr’s buff was shared amongst the team was because it was planned that no other warframe would have so much armor, and therefore an adjusted version for Saryn could not share its benefit with the team for reason of being too powerful. Other bonuses will have to be conferred to the team.

 

Let’s try to bring Saryn to between 80% to 85% of the damage tolerance Valkyr has. We’ll cover the remaining lost portion with a small ability bonus later. If this draft is used,

Saryn’s self-applied armor boost from Contagion would need to be…

 

150% armor boost at base cast of the skill would confer 4120.875 EHP, and with 740 shields added on top, she will have 4860 damage. This will bring her to 84.199% of what Valkyr can tolerate at Warcry’s base armor buff. Alternatively, the buff can be 120%, and she will have 3759.57 EHP plus 740 shields, 4499 damage cap, which is 77.9% of Valkyr’s damage cap.

 

The power maxed version of the 150% draft would give Saryn 6451.29 EHP, and the 740 shields stacked on top will confer7191 damage tolerance. This is 92% of what Valkyr can tolerate with her version of this ability, Warcry. Alternatively, the 120% draft version will be power maxed to give 274.8% damage reduction, which will confer 5623.9 EHP, rounded down then boosted by 740 shields to give 6363 damage cap, which is 81.8% of Valkyr’s ability. So for better balance, we’ll take the draft that gives Saryn an initial armor boost of 120%, which is modifiable by power strength. The lost percentage can be compensated for by adding a small fun effect.

 

Alternatively to the above, we can go the simpler route and attempt to achieve the same effect using total damage reduction instead of armor boosting. Within the discussion of comparative buff effects from the original Warcry, Saryn had only 57% of the durability Valkyr has when the ability had maximum power strength. To achieve even protection from her skill using pure damage reduction, the power strength maxed iteration of the new Contagion would confer just over 75% damage reduction, so reverse-calculating down from maxed power strength, the starting damage reduction would be about 33% base. We can lower it down to 30% damage reduction, which is a loss to Saryn but otherwise the numbers are cleaner. This version is a simple, yet well-balanced approach to rebalancing Overheat’s damage reduction. It will cost 75 energy as opposed to 50, and it will confer 30% damage reduction as opposed to 40%, keeping the ability within balance of Valkyr’s Warcry. This is supposed to be a melee skill however, so it’s time to give melee incentive.

 

Valkyr can already boost other Valkyr players and take turns giving buffs, so we wouldn’t want to superbuff Valkyr to insane armor levels. Based on whichever one of the three drafts that are selected from what I suggested above, we’ll have the remaining to balance out:

 

If using the 150% base armor increasing version, we’ll have a minor 8% of Saryn’s defense to compensate for.

 

If using the 120% base armor increasing version, we have 20% of Saryn’s defense to compensate for.

 

If using my 30% base damage reduction version, we have practically nothing to cover for, and the additional effect can be left on the cutting room floor.

 

Regardless of which option you and/or the developers choose to use, we still have to compensate for that large chunk of team defense utility that was scrapped from Valkyr’s original Warcry, to suit Saryn’s personality—we’ll get there soon enough. As the original Warcry did, this will only apply to teammates and enemies within range of the initial skill cast, and will last for the duration of the ability on those affected targets. Contagion already has a timer between reuse, so appropriating a derivative of Warcry+Overheat splicing to her will work without need of adjustment, and players can use the ability as they already have been.

 

Valkyr’s ability granted 50% additional melee speed at base power strength, and granted 114.5% melee speed buff with maxed power strength. Enemy speed at base power strength is reduced by 30%, and at maxed power strength reduced by 68.7%.

 

Observing our melee mods, Attack speed is at a higher premium per percentage added than base attack damage, and elemental damage costs a bit more per percentage than base damage. So the ratio of base speed (Fury)/base damage (Pressure Point)/base element damage (Fever Strike) in the mods is 30/120/90, which is factored down to 1/4/3. So for every one percent of attack speed percentage added, we can add three percent toxin damage. So simply speaking, we take Valkyr’s melee speed boost, and convert it to toxin damage on weapons, multiplied by three. So Saryn’s conversion of this skill would confer 150% additional toxin damage at base, power strength maxed to 343.5% toxin damage added to melee weapons, for all of your teammates. This converts Valkyr’s team bonus to something that makes sense for Saryn’s slower, toxic nature, and is still within limits of Ash’s and Loki’s cloak melee damage buff of 400%.

 

We still have to compensate for the missing half of team bonuses. It’s fair to say that team bonuses are worth as much as enemy debuffs, so this is an option to consider. This all has to happen within range of the ability itself.

 

To compensate for half of the team bonus lost, I’ll convert it directly to harmful effect applied to enemies. I opt for 200 toxin damage applied to all enemies within the area with a 100% forced proc chance. Toxin proc deals 50% the initial damage, so enemies will generally take 100 damage per second for 9 ticks within 8 seconds, which will be 900 damage total after 8 seconds. The logic for this skill is Ember’s Fire Storm ability with partial effectiveness. Fire Storm deals 150 damage per tick base. It deals one tick at the start, and one tick per second thereafter, for a total of 21 ticks of damage at base, equating to 3150 damage. Since Warcry has 25 meters initial range, Saryn’s new Contagion will also have this range. The 25 meter instant effect with range scaling is weighed against Ember’s persistent trap with duration scaling, on equal basis, then divided by three since this feature is supposed to be worth a third of an established warframe ability of equal point value.

 

So far so good, all that’s left is to consider a unique effect applied to Saryn herself to cover the missing chunk of the defense value the skill should have given. What we have so far is…

 

Contagion:

 

Within 25 meters instantly, applies various effects to teammates and enemies, which once applied lasts for a duration of 15 seconds if the effect is meant to be persistent. This ability scales with power strength, range, and duration.

 

To teammates:

Instead of a 50% speed buff to team melee weapons, grant a 150% (strength modifiable) toxin damage buff to team melee weapons. This damage effect should not combine with already existing elements on weapons, but should be added separately after. It will last for the duration of the ability.

 

Instead of granting a 50% armor increase to allies, apply 200 toxin damage (strength modifiable) with 100% proc chance to enemies within ability range. It is an instant effect, so it will not be affected by power duration. It is a single hit of toxin with 100% status chance (always happens), and the status will only last for 8 seconds.

 

Both Warcry and Contagion will apply the same 30% debuff to enemy speed. This effect will last for the duration of the ability.

 

All that’s left to cover for is the possible loss of Saryn’s defense from the adaptation of Warcry, based on which draft you chose to use. A mild yet helpful offensive effect should do the trick. If you used the 150% armor buff base, we compensate for the 8% defense loss with 10 toxin damage per second aura around Saryn within 0.5 meters of herself. This range does not scale with power range mods. If you went with the 120% armor buff base, it should be a 25 toxin damage per second aura within 0.5 meters of herself. If the 30% damage reduction draft was chosen, I suppose this feature need not be here.

 

This is my first draft of my Contagion overhaul, kept within balance best I could. It’s still a work in progress, so do offer constructive guidance, and hopefully [DE] will consider these ideas for the Contagion rework, because it sure needs one.

[Perserve]

This is a great start on contagion.

 

it does cover some of Saryn's shortcomings quite well. To clarify, on activation of contagion its:

 

  melee weapon boost of +150% toxin to Saryn and her team within 25m

  +150% armor boost to Saryn, a 25m persistent enemy speed debuff

 25 m AOE toxin effect(once) 

 toxin aura that isn't affected by mods for 10 toxin per sec within 0.5 meters

 

sounds awesome on paper but I would change the toxin AOE completely. honestly the toxin aura is fine since Saryn has miasma and/or molt to do that. I think It should instantly refresh stamina in a 25m radius to Saryn and her allies. Plus its something no other frame has and covers the fact Saryn is so slow to begin with. that actually would make this ability much better for keeping up with the team and using the full suite of melee 2.0.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Perserve

[MechaKnight]

This is a great start on contagion.

 

it does cover some of Saryn's shortcomings quite well. To clarify, on activation of contagion its:

 

  melee weapon boost of +150% toxin to Saryn and her team within 25m

  +150% armor boost to Saryn, a 25m persistent enemy speed debuff

 25 m AOE toxin effect(once) 

 toxin aura that isn't affected by mods for 10 toxin per sec within 0.5 meters

 

sounds awesome on paper but I would change the toxin AOE completely. honestly the toxin aura is fine since Saryn has miasma and/or molt to do that. I think It should instantly refresh stamina in a 25m radius to Saryn and her allies. Plus its something no other frame has and covers the fact Saryn is so slow to begin with. that actually would make this ability much better for keeping up with the team and using the full suite of melee 2.0.

Thanks. It's a first draft after all and it could use some feedback. Yes, I thought the toxin applied once was lackluster and didn't feel original compared to Saryn's other abilities at all. A stamina refresh to the top is interesting. People do not regard stamina highly since most players stop running and slide, but that doesn't mean it's not useful. It could also be exchanged for higher toxin damage aura on Saryn instead.

 

I'll keep working on this as I find more ideas and test. If the highest priority abilities find appropriate fixes first, we can move to lesser priority ones.

[MechaKnight]

Skimmed through Prime Time 30. Nothing about this warframe, but I may as well offer one suggestion to help the situation with how rare Saryn is, although the broken state of her abilities is the majority of the problem.

 

If space is needed for a warframe to find a home on the solar system, I wouldn't mind Saryn be removed from Merrow, Sedna. She could be distributed around Eximus (leader type) enemies, either sharing the same drop table as Oberon, or being restricted to Grineer or Infested Eximus enemies, based on whether DE prefers to hold to the history that you found it from a grineer boss, or to acknowledge it looks like an infested warframe. Either way, more people will have the warframe in their inventory than currently. People don't even try to get this warframe anymore, so they don't.

 

Not much interest in fixing or playing Saryn, so I'm almost the only voice for it. I'll do my best to suggest solutions as I find them. Here's to hoping tomorrow's Devstream will have... something. Anything relevant. Please.

 

Edit: Revised the Contagion draft. I've suggested that the previously conceived toxic offensive effect be replaced with lifesteal applied to all team melee weapons. I haven't done the calculations yet to see how much heal should be applied per hit, but I'll compare to warframe abilities and melee mods for this. Also, instead of warframe energy colored outline applied to teammates on cast of this ability, a small toxic fume of the caster's energy color can appear on teammates instead. This will allow better synergy with Valkyr's team-based melee skill, allowing the abilities to work together by contributing different bonuses to the team, with different visual indicators. It will also compensate for Saryn's lack of healing on any ability she has, despite having a melee ability.

Edited May 23, 2014 by MechaKnight

[Perserve]

Nice! and yeah prime time 30 was disappointing as people couldn't exactly ask about frame changes. Maybe in the upcoming devstream questions about frame balance can be answered. I like the lifesteal idea a lot 

[MechaKnight]

Nice! and yeah prime time 30 was disappointing as people couldn't exactly ask about frame changes. Maybe in the upcoming devstream questions about frame balance can be answered. I like the lifesteal idea a lot 

Well at least Prime Time 30 had interesting music, and it gave a unique inside view to how the game is expected to work for miscellany. Also, I just did some thinking for Life Strike using Hysteria as a base. The result is... underwhelming. It's certainly better than nothing, but because the bonus can't be as good as the hysteria bonus, a rank 3 Contagion by this rework would only grant between 2% to 4% life strike per hit. I mean, it's something to entice the team to use it, and it's somewhat helpful. While the elite player base understands and can afford to use health kits, this small addition would help early gameplay, and can be mildly helpful in late gameplay too. By comparison, the Life Strike mod grants 20% life strike, but at a cost of -140% efficiency. So I suppose life strike on an ability is not overpowered compared to the mod itself, since casting an ability is like paying all your energy cost/efficiency up front.

 

Edit: Changelog updated, I've moved the relevant threads section to be more visible. I've found yet another Saryn related thread.

Azamagon's Warframe Rebalancing - Saryn

 

Our thought process on the abilities as they are now are similar, but we've gotten different ideas on how to fix them. Cross-linking since Saryn threads just don't survive long.

Edited May 23, 2014 by MechaKnight

[Azamagon]

While I might be late to the discussion, I do have some suggestions (thoroughly described here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/184138-azamagons-warframe-rebalancing-saryn/ )

 

A kind of long summary / TL;DR of the link:

 

General: Saryn has no real true identity. Rhino is a Juggernaut. Loki is a Trickster etc. Most Warframes have a theme, other than just how they deal damage. Saryn pretty much just have: I deal with poison and stuff.

So I propose a theme: Main focus would be ELUSIVENESS. So an elusive caster/melee/"tank" hybrid. With that in mind, positioning (of yourself and enemies) becomes an important playstyle for her. It already sorta does anyway.

 

So yeah, the following suggestion are based on two things:

1) Theme - "Poison" + Elusiveness

2) Synergy - Always important when you are gonna fix a character's skillset!

 

Venom Contagion / Toxic Spore:

* Place ONE spore, ANYWHERE (ally, enemy, ground, your Molt etc)

* Deals DoT + Minor slowdown in minor area

* Detonatable, not to spread spores (subject to change), but to make the DoT+Slowdown stick on targets in the big detonated explosion instead + cause some kind of CC (stun etc).

* Detonatable by ranged weapons, melee or Saryn's abilities (including Molt's explosion!)

* Viral debuff or seperate max-health-reduction debuff guaranteed.

Role: Funneling enemies (slowdown) and weakening them (DoT + max healthreduction) + CC (the spore explosion's CC, whatever chosen)

 

Molt:

* Removes debuffs from Saryn

* Copies buffs from Saryn

* Grants Saryn very shortlasting invisibility

* Still explodes on death

Role: Distraction with its aggro (even repositioning enemies when used with Miasma!), main elusive ability (invisibility) both for running away and to close the gap to enemies

 

Contagion Venom Shroud:

* Buffs melee with Toxin (should be buffed)

* Melee healthleech with this poison (gives her a bit of a Warlock feel)

* Paralytic shield "shroud" on Saryn - Enemies within a quite close range to Saryn and attacking her (melee or ranged attack, doesn't matter) will be paralyzed (think freezing, but poisonbased) and the attack triggering the paralyze is completely negated, making it an evasive damage-prevention tool in a unique fashion!

* Due to Molt copying buffs, it can ALSO get the Paralytic shield!

Role: Melee empowerment (toxic boost), durability (leech) and a shield to make sure you can STAY in range (retributive/negating paralytic shield), main "stay in the fight" ability.

 

Miasma

* Corrosive blastwave, like now

* Also leaves a decently longlasting toxic cloud behind. Deals little damage, but BLOCKS ENEMIES LINE OF SIGHT! Great for defending a position (allies, yourself, cryopod etc)

Role: DoT Nuke (Blastwave) and enemy "attraction" (line of sight cloud)

 

Example synergies:

* Miasma + Molt - Resposition enemies very easily by preventing line of sight + drawing their aggro with the decoy + losing your aggro with Molt's quick invisibility.

* Molt + Toxic Spore - A deadly bomb-combo

* Venom Shroud + Molt - Give Molt the paralytic shield + molt's aggro and invisibility allows Saryn to get up close to enemy groups easily + Venom shroud's buff allows Saryn to STAY in range as well as deal much more damage (invisibility of Molt too, although is very brief)

* Miasma + Toxic Spore - Pull in enemies from far away by preventing their line of sight + detonate the spore on them when they get closer

etc etc

All of them simply combine very well! Mix and match in various ways!

 

For more clear details, check the link at the start.

Edited May 23, 2014 by Azamagon

[MechaKnight]

Thanks for the contribution Azamagon!

I'm generally sticking to the conservative number tweak approach, but your original ideas are also great.

 

EDIT: Devstream 29 just ended. Good on DE with the ships and Kubrows. If there was a portion on warframe balancing I probably missed it. I'll need to rewatch unless someone can relay if there was anything relevant to 'frame balancing.

Edited May 23, 2014 by MechaKnight

[MechaKnight]

So I just noticed this thread, and it's pretty much in par with my thread's opening post and discussion. Essentially, Saryn is already highly difficult to understand for new players, but her currently broken nature in abilities and mod scaling would probably repel the new player the moment they read about it.

 

Also, Devstream 29 mentioned Valkyr Hysteria buffing. Since my rework for Contagion uses a portion of Hysteria and weakens it by a fraction, this could be somewhat relevant depending on the change involved. As of currently, I planned the new Contagion to grant between 2% to 4% life strike at rank 3, along with various other features.

Edited May 24, 2014 by MechaKnight

[Tai_Mai_Shu]

I just read this entire thread and almost wish I had not. I actually just finished playing Sayrn not too long ago and this thread made me never want to play as Sayrn ever agian. I guess I never really payed much attention to how AWFUL contagion and molt are. I love the idea of molt removing procs! I hate procs, and it should honestly do this in the first place if you think about it. I am in full support of any of the suggested buffs to her powers.

[Casardis]

Saryn's my second favorite frame and I have lots of fun using her. However, I will not deny that she can use a look at. The points you've brought in the OP alone is enough to convince me.

 

I hope DE opens the possibilities of the earlier Frames a bit more, especially seeing how the new ones are.

[MechaKnight]

I just read this entire thread and almost wish I had not. I actually just finished playing Saryn not too long ago and this thread made me never want to play as Saryn ever again. I guess I never really payed much attention to how AWFUL contagion and molt are. I love the idea of molt removing procs! I hate procs, and it should honestly do this in the first place if you think about it. I am in full support of any of the suggested buffs to her powers.

Thanks. Yes, the situation looks terrifying, but hopefully this warframe will receive attention soon.

 

 

Saryn's my second favorite frame and I have lots of fun using her. However, I will not deny that she can use a look at. The points you've brought in the OP alone is enough to convince me.

 

I hope DE opens the possibilities of the earlier Frames a bit more, especially seeing how the new ones are.

Yes, Saryn's a favorite of mine too, and she's definitely fallen far. While Banshee is update 7 as Saryn is, Nova is update 9, Nekros is update 10, Valkyr is update 11, and Oberon is update 11.5, Saryn's been getting regular complaints about her performance since about 6 months ago, circa Damage 2.0. Considering Warframe celebrated its open beta release 1 year anniversary on March 28th, 2014, at 5PM EST (extending into the first week of April), Saryn's been suggested for buffing for a while. So yes, I am in heavy agreement that old content be looked into for repairs. This warframe is in danger of becoming a relic--it's already ancient and unseen by many. While a direct message has been sent earlier in this thread, hopefully Saryn will be announced publicly in the near future. The expected release would be extra nice, but for now, just saying Saryn's being considered would be nice.

 

Also I've had yet another idea about the Contagion revamp. Players have suggested to me it should influence melee channeling efficiency. I haven't seen that done in an ability before, but I know Trinity has an ability to return energy on hit so that's possible. If I develop the drafts far enough, there may be a draft written that is completely unique from Warcry, which I used as a base.

Edited May 24, 2014 by MechaKnight

[GTG3000]

Trin doesn't have that ability ever since her great nerf in 9.8

 

And, well... An ability affiliated with chanelling might make it useless for some. I still think that some sort of complicated-yet-usable health regen functionality would be neat with contagion, like say hitting venom-imbued enemies and such.

[Vaskadar]

To improve Saryn's ability to be highly evasive, and synergize her powers more easily, I propose that Miasma be changed not to an instantaneous ability, but a gas-like field of hellish poisons.

 

Miasma should produce a toxic cloud that chokes enemies that enter it, giving reason to increase duration on Saryn's abilities. While choked, the enemies will be more vulnerable to melee attacks, similar to a state of being blinded or deafened. This miasma would be a sort of deployed ultimate, that slowly seeps outwards, engulfing more space as time goes on.

 

Another suggestion of mine for Moult below.

 

Moult's strength should be multiplicative of armor rating, as well. It should also have inherent alloy armor. The more quickly it explodes, the more damage it deals.

Edited May 25, 2014 by Vaskadar

[RealPandemonium]

Moult's strength should be multiplicative of armor rating, as well. It should also have inherent alloy armor. The more quickly it explodes, the more damage it deals.

That raises a good question.  What kind of hitpoints do the two decoys have?  Some conclave testing may glean the answer. 

[MechaKnight]

Trin doesn't have that ability ever since her great nerf in 9.8

 

And, well... An ability affiliated with chanelling might make it useless for some. I still think that some sort of complicated-yet-usable health regen functionality would be neat with contagion, like say hitting venom-imbued enemies and such.

Okay, channeling out of the question then. A small yet noticeable life strike is fine. It would be the most reliable health regen I can think of, as it would encourage melee as opposed to a direct heal, which would be what Trinity and Oberon do.

To improve Saryn's ability to be highly evasive, and synergize her powers more easily, I propose that Miasma be changed not to an instantaneous ability, but a gas-like field of hellish poisons.

 

Miasma should produce a toxic cloud that chokes enemies that enter it, giving reason to increase duration on Saryn's abilities. While choked, the enemies will be more vulnerable to melee attacks, similar to a state of being blinded or deafened. This miasma would be a sort of deployed ultimate, that slowly seeps outwards, engulfing more space as time goes on.

 

Another suggestion of mine for Moult below.

 

Moult's strength should be multiplicative of armor rating, as well. It should also have inherent alloy armor. The more quickly it explodes, the more damage it deals.

If Molt is altered to be more effective, I approve of this slowly released form of Miasma. It would lend to the gaseous personality of the ability, and would be a useful support skill.

That raises a good question.  What kind of hitpoints do the two decoys have?  Some conclave testing may glean the answer. 

Ah, you mean Decoy versus Molt? I'm curious of it myself. We know some numbers from the wiki, but no armor types. I think both of them carry shields, so it seems when a player scrolls their courser over one.

[MechaKnight]

While I did not compare the two dummy abilities in playtesting, I did some thinking in the significance of it. Other than knowing that both Decoy and Molt targets have both shield and health components, I don't know the type of health they have, and this matter doesn't just apply to the clones spawned by these abilities. What about the rescue target or our sentinels? Generally, we simply accept that they have shields, health, and armor. Most people don't venture further, but perhaps there may be a reason to...

 

Iron Skin uses the ferrite damage type. While it could be purely for the amusement of iron skin being made of iron, there is a practical gameplay effect about it.

 

Ferrite is weak against puncture, corrosive, and toxin, but stronger against slash and blast. Generally, only puncture and slash are found as procs from enemy weapons, and maybe the effect from the toxic ancient is toxin. That said, the nature of self-applied defense skills is rather important when considering worn protection, but as for Molt and Decoy, maybe their ambiguous health is good enough. However, if Molt were to have a wearable component added to it, it would have to carry a damage type.

 

It would make sense to carry one of the four infested health-type variations. Infested, Infested Flesh, Infested Sinew, and Fossilized. However, Infested health-types generally suffer massive weaknesses in ranges from 25% to 75% to particular physical damages and elements, and what elements they do offer protection from, currently no enemy deals these damage types. If Saryn were to use a wearable skin similar to Iron Skin, the only viable damage type is fossilized, but this could prove risky as additional enemy types are added to the game, so care must be done if this path of renovating Molt is taken.

 

That, or we could just use a short cloak applied to Saryn when Molt is dropped. it would probably have a base duration of 4 seconds, and this could be modified by power duration. It would be simple, yet effective to make Molt actually feel like a practical decoy.

 

Edit: It seems like a good solution. Saryn's Molt lacks evasion, and Oberon's Hallowed Ground lacks protection. A short cloak attached to Molt, and damage reduction to allies within the area of Hallowed Ground seems to be the least complicated solution to their respective problems, but not the only solutions.

Edited May 26, 2014 by MechaKnight

[Unibot]

Saryn ? Yeah, how can I forget such lovely piece of &#!.

[MechaKnight]

I'll revise the opening post soon to add more recent community suggestions, and see if the parts can come to a coherent draft...

 

 

To improve Saryn's ability to be highly evasive, and synergize her powers more easily, I propose that Miasma be changed not to an instantaneous ability, but a gas-like field of hellish poisons.

 

Miasma should produce a toxic cloud that chokes enemies that enter it, giving reason to increase duration on Saryn's abilities. While choked, the enemies will be more vulnerable to melee attacks, similar to a state of being blinded or deafened. This miasma would be a sort of deployed ultimate, that slowly seeps outwards, engulfing more space as time goes on.

The current Miasma ability uses pure corrosive, but I don't currently remember an ability dealing multiple elemental damage at once. Or perhaps you meant some form of toxin element out of the four kinds. Either way, I can visualize the concept: making a trap with distributed area and crowd control. From what you said, it can work similarly to a persistent Radial Blind in one location. Seems good, but there are things to consider. Contagion and/or Molt need to be renovated as well to be more suitable to instantaneous protection/crowd control should there be a need for it. It also needs to be implemented in a way that the majority agrees on, or is done so well that the playerbase likes it. Saryn could do with more purpose to gameplay so I'm for it, but this change seems to be a conversion from a damage skill to a crowd-control skill. So instead of competing with Frost, Rhino, and Nova, Saryn may compete with Vauban and Hydroid. It could become a different problem. Work needs to be done to see how it will work, but the quick option so far is simply change Miasma to not rely on inverse-duration and work comparably to other warframe abilities.

 

 

Another suggestion of mine for Moult below.

 

Moult's strength should be multiplicative of armor rating, as well. It should also have inherent alloy armor. The more quickly it explodes, the more damage it deals.

This is a good suggestion. Frost's Snow Globe scales off armor. It would give Saryn a reason to keep Steel Fiber. If the armor boost approach to damage mitigation is taken from the current Contagion draft posted, it could mesh to give a temporary boost to a Molt cast afterward. No idea what damage type Molt or Decoy use for their health. Yes, that damage scaling is a decent balance between offense and defense since in theory, enemies that scale higher to deal more damage to the Molt faster will harm themselves more in return.

[Raileks]

Contagion - My favorite suggested fix on contagion(besides swapping its name with her Venom ability) is that when she hits an enemy while contagion is active, it detonates all spores(from venom ability) on an enemy when she hits them, the spread radius increasing multiplicatively with the amount of spores popped at once.

 

Molt - I use Saryn alot and I've found this a particularly useful ability in alot of situations but usually when I'm about to die or need to protect someone.  I honestly dont understand why it needs buffing but if it does, it would be nice if it could absorb more damage.  Also I notice molt doesnt attract enemies as strongly as other decoy abilities do.  Sometimes they ignore it.

 

Miasma - Miasma is a useful ability as is now... its just boring, and I think with the math in the way it dots its a little broken.  I personally like the suggestion that it instead gives Saryn a toxic gas cloud that she trails behind/around her as she moves. (If any of you have ever played League of Legends this is Singed's signature)

Edited May 26, 2014 by Raileks

[MechaKnight]

Contagion - My favorite suggested fix on contagion(besides swapping its name with her Venom ability) is that when she hits an enemy while contagion is active, it detonates all spores(from venom ability) on an enemy when she hits them, the spread radius increasing multiplicatively with the amount of spores popped at once.

It's also a community suggestion I like. It can be added to the the draft, but I need to make sure the ability is balanced, and can stand on its own without a mandatory Venom + Contagion combo.

 

 

Molt - I use Saryn alot and I've found this a particularly useful ability in alot of situations but usually when I'm about to die or need to protect someone.  I honestly dont understand why it needs buffing but if it does, it would be nice if it could absorb more damage.  Also I notice molt doesnt attract enemies as strongly as other decoy abilities do.  Sometimes they ignore it.

It is a decoy of a sort. It's twice as expensive as Loki's version, but contains an offensive portion. The current complaint is that enemies don't take their attention off you readily as you've been seen, have attacked them, and the new target spawns on your current location with no defense applied to you to get you out the area safely for a small moment. In general, the range seems to be about 9 meters or so. Enemy aggression to it is rather loose if it's not within 10 meters of its path, and you're a visible target in the same room at the same time without adequate distance. My current solution is a small cloak applied on cast, or alternatively a small protective coating.

 

 

Miasma - Miasma is a useful ability as is now... its just boring, and I think with the math in the way it dots its a little broken.  I personally like the suggestion that it instead gives Saryn a toxic gas cloud that she trails behind/around her as she moves. (If any of you have ever played League of Legends this is Singed's signature)

It is broken, so far [DE] staff Rebecca and Megan have identified the calculation is just strange. It is understood that the skill scales inversely with power duration in a way that harms her other three abilities, so ironically her best ability becomes her worst if you intend to mod her other abilities to be more useful. Or you can trash the duration on the other three to make Miasma decent. This shouldn't be the choice we have to make, given that's her only safe crowd control ability.

 

I intended for the toxic cloud emanation to be placed on Contagion since that skill is higher in priority for need of attention, but it can also be implemented into Miasma by some form. Priority currently is to fix what's broken in a way that doesn't affect current gameplay styles without significant agreement, so most likely the toxic cloud will be placed on Contagion. The skill is so lackluster and rarely used that it's almost a blank slate for additions. The only condition for Contagion is keep it toxic, and keep the melee focus.

[RealPandemonium]

It is broken, so far [DE] staff Rebecca and Megan have identified the calculation is just strange. It is understood that the skill scales inversely with power duration in a way that harms her other three abilities

It could be argued that a short duration Molt is good since it will expire and explode twice, along with the fact that decoys aren't usually meant to last more than a short while anyway.  Even if you do want to apply the decoy for an extended period, the cost is lowered to spammable levels with max efficiency so you can keep the decoy up by recasting while also dealing sizable AOE damage in a decent radius (they need to fix the buggy aplication of the damage, though.)  I also want to state that I support Molt inheriting your debuffs and stripping them from you.  That's a great suggestion that fits the theme of the ability perfectly while allowing Saryn to tank more effectively.

 

Regarding the damage potential of Molt, I did this math assuming max FE, max Streamline, max Intensify, and rank 2 Blind Rage for 75% efficiency and 57% bonus strength (57/75 build.)

200 base damage

 

200 * 1.57 = 314 (57 power strength)

 

(314/2) * 9 = 1413 proc damage (applied over 8 seconds)

 

314 + 1413 = 1727 total damage

 

1727 * 2 = 3454 double damage application due to expiring

 

3454 * 2 = 6908 headshot

 

6908 * 1.5 = 10362 headshot vs corpus crewmen (This ignores shields as well!)

This is pretty significant damage.  Although it is not applied instantly it does add up, and it absolutely shreds Crewmen, dealing massively boosted damage and ignoring their shields.  Gonna test some more too see if it reliably hits Moas in their weak spots as well. Killing Corpus is no great feat but the damage vs Ferrite is decent due to ignoring 25% percent of its armor and it is only ineffective vs Toxic and Disruptor Ancients so it can do work vs Infested as well. 

[MechaKnight]

It could be argued that a short duration Molt is good since it will expire and explode twice, along with the fact that decoys aren't usually meant to last more than a short while anyway.  Even if you do want to apply the decoy for an extended period, the cost is lowered to spammable levels with max efficiency so you can keep the decoy up by recasting while also dealing sizable AOE damage in a decent radius (they need to fix the buggy aplication of the damage, though.)  I also want to state that I support Molt inheriting your debuffs and stripping them from you.  That's a great suggestion that fits the theme of the ability perfectly while allowing Saryn to tank more effectively.

 

Agreed. The use of Molt is this fashion is helpful. Other than fixing Miasma's calculation to be a choice and not a chore, it's a good option to have. The double instance of damage can be replaced with the health to damage scaling mentioned earlier, if DE wants to flesh out the plan.

 

 

Regarding the damage potential of Molt, I did this math assuming max FE, max Streamline, max Intensify, and rank 2 Blind Rage for 75% efficiency and 57% bonus strength (57/75 build.)

200 base damage

 

200 * 1.57 = 314 (57 power strength)

 

(314/2) * 9 = 1413 proc damage (applied over 8 seconds)

 

314 + 1413 = 1727 total damage

 

1727 * 2 = 3454 double damage application due to expiring

 

3454 * 2 = 6908 headshot

 

6908 * 1.5 = 10362 headshot vs corpus crewmen (This ignores shields as well!)

This is pretty significant damage.  Although it is not applied instantly it does add up, and it absolutely shreds Crewmen, dealing massively boosted damage and ignoring their shields.  Gonna test some more too see if it reliably hits Moas in their weak spots as well. Killing Corpus is no great feat but the damage vs Ferrite is decent due to ignoring 25% percent of its armor and it is only ineffective vs Toxic and Disruptor Ancients so it can do work vs Infested as well. 

Yes, Molt is effective in this respect. I'm not sure about the absolute rate of headshots on AoEs, but it's pretty good offense. Other than the skill lacking some defensive element, the offensive portion works well enough.

[RealPandemonium]

Yes, Molt is effective in this respect. I'm not sure about the absolute rate of headshots on AoEs, but it's pretty good offense.

Most explosions tend to headshot, even if you aim them at the ground.  Molting in midair pretty much guarantees a headshot vs everything that has a weak spot on the top of them.  Behavior vs Moas seems inconsistent and warrants more testing. 

Edited May 26, 2014 by RealPandemonium