Loki Rework!

[Winchester117]

Now I heard from other friends on WF that Loki, Banshee and Ash are getting kind of an Overhaul of sorts. I love Loki but I agree that he needs to be reworked. He is great going solo. He may not be fat and tough like Rhino but he is one speedy little dude with fun tricks up his sleeve to troll the enemy and gain the upper hand but in a team he is not very useful. One of his skills just gets players killed in higher levels. I wanna go over his skills to kinda point out what I mean and what I think should be changed.

 

Decoy: It's a great skill but it is useless against higher level enemies because unlike their lower level counterparts, they aren't "pants on head $&*&*#(%&". It needs a buff so it can be viable in higher levels, especially in top tier defense and mobile defense.

 

Invisibility: I like it just the way it is, pretty basic, pretty self-explanatory. A interesting idea I had to make it more team friendly is to buff it the same way DE buffed Volt's speed ability, where team mates near Volt get a speed increase as well, the same could apply to Loki's Invisibility... something to think about.

 

Switch Teleport: It is insanely situational but you have to admit it's fun to use. Most players use it for trolling or to keep rushers with the team. Some use it just to tease the enemy but others if they are good enough use it to switch downed team mates to bring them out of the mob they were in the middle of so players can safely revive them while Loki turns invisible and starts hacking at the enemy's kneecaps. I am not sure how we can improve this but I am open to ideas, it may be that DE will have to get rid of that power all-together.

 

Lastly, Radial Disarm: The ultimate ability that kills your team. In a low level mission disarming enemies is fine but in high level missions it's a nightmare. Because high level enemies without guns are still high level enemies. They just throw their guns away, pull out their giant sparklers and decide to gang rape the team but beating them to death. The still do high damage because they are still high level. For Loki this isn't a problem, he can turn invisible and start slashing away but the team cant and they will get swarmed. Point is, it replaces one problem with an entirely new one and in defense, the last thing you want is for enemies to swarm the pod. I think it should be more like a 10 second stun where it makes their weapons malfunction and they take a few seconds to fix their gear giving the team enough time to either run or raise hell.

 

With his stats, they are fine. If you are getting hit alot with Loki, you are playing him wrong, utilize his speed. He is fast and once you get used to moving that fast you will do fine, I would try practicing on shooting while moving around, most people stop to shoot. Never do that with Loki, always keep moving. 

 

One last thing I want to note is, and I know I might get a few shameful looks but we all have players who gossip about future prime frames, I just want to say that if the pattern I am seeing is right, either Loki or Volt will be the next Prime frame. Either that or Sarynn. If they do Prime Loki it will be after he gets his overhaul. Loki is one of the four main Warframes (Excalibur, Mag, Loki and Rhino). Volt and Sarynn are two of the Elemental frames (Volt, Frost, Ember and Sarynn). The three I mentioned are the only ones of those two groups to not get primed and it seems like DE is focusing on priming the frames from those two groups first. Anyway, that is my thoughts on Loki and future primes. Let me know what you think.

 

By the way, has anyone seen Stalker, he hasn't tried gutting me in the streets lately and I'm getting a little sad... feels like a breakup almost.

[Fo0otsteps]

Don't touch loki

[(PSN)Daikon177]

I had heard ash and banshee are in line for some sort of buffing but this is the first ive heard anything about loki.

Edited May 1, 2014 by (PS4)DA_HEFF_

[Histori]

Don't touch loki

Yea Loki is fine, if you don't like it don't play with him.

[shut]

DONT YOU DARE TOUCH LOKI I WILL SKIN YOU ALIVE

 

fixed to represent my thoughts on the matter

Edited May 1, 2014 by SortaRandom

[SynOrushima]

Loki needs no rework. To do such a thing is to ruin a perfectly good frame that can adapt to any new damage/mod/game play updates. He honestly is the only frame that can be considered balanced. 

If you want an epic invisibility build, you have to sacrifice his disarming ability. vice versa for his disarming build.

His decoy may not last long in higher levels, and could use a buff, but it still manages to keep the heat off of the team for a second or two before enemies one shot it.

It can be argued that switch teleport is a useless skill, but coupled with decoy or invisibility it can be incredibly useful. 

His skills are all useful in the current system and all we have to sacrifice for his amazing tool set is dealing with his low health/shield stats. 

Loki is balanced and shouldn't be touched.

 

For the tl;dr - Don't fahk with Loki, he's fine and doesn't need to be screwed with. 

[Recovery8]

Invisibility: I like it just the way it is, pretty basic, pretty self-explanatory. A interesting idea I had to make it more team friendly is to buff it the same way DE buffed Volt's speed ability, where team mates near Volt get a speed increase as well, the same could apply to Loki's Invisibility... something to think about.

 

_____________________

Here is the thing, I don't feel Loki needs this. He's already a pretty solid frame. His abilities make him viable in a team scenario and I think his Decoy just needs to draw more aggro. This buff however if placed on Ash would help him out more considering at the moment him and Banshee are both frames that desperately need this sort of thing....Plus the Loki Master Race might gas anyone for talking bad about Loki.

[Winchester117]

I am not talking bad about Loki. He is my favorite frame but if you ever played him with a team on top tier missions you will know that decoy is useless there and radial disarm is basically setting up a gang rape on your friends . I am not saying nerf him, I am saying make him more viable in a team because he isn't a team friendly frame and he gets players killed in the big missions with big enemies.

[DalaiLlama]

One strong trait about him is that almost all of his abilities scale perfectly, with the exception of decoy.

 

Invisibility scales quite perfectly; some call it OP, but with 225 base shield/hp at rank 30, Loki is the frame that needs some sort of escape card.  Loki cannot hold his own in a heated firefight.

 

Switch teleport is quite a nifty skill when combined with decoy; even without it is still quite useful.  If trolled, hate the troll, not the frame.

 

If a team doesn't have the firepower to deal with melee enemies, they shouldn't have the firepower to deal with ranged enemies either.  When against heavies of Grineer and Corpus, radial disarm does help.  I believe that a prod would do less damage or at least be less of a danger than an enemy supra, ogris, or napalm any day.

 

But yes, long story short, do leave my baby alone.

[Nephelus]

I am not talking bad about Loki. He is my favorite frame but if you ever played him with a team on top tier missions you will know that decoy is useless there and radial disarm is basically setting up a gang rape on your friends . I am not saying nerf him, I am saying make him more viable in a team because he isn't a team friendly frame and he gets players killed in the big missions with big enemies.

 

I feel you. Loki is my favorite frame. I want to get another but they just seem so different. At the same time, I feel left out whenever I play with a group because my abilities seem less powerful/deadly than other frames.

 

Loki is my first (and current) frame.

I like him and hate him for the same reason: He's sneaky and tactical; requiring some strategy.

That's great for solo play but not very useful for groups when the Battle Doctrine is "Go! Go! Go! Run! Run! Kill! Press 4 to kill everything"

I don't think he should change much but I think he could stand to be a bit more group friendly. This could be done without greatly changing how he plays so hardcore Loki fans (I see some in this thread) will be happy.

 

1. Decoy

Very useful when outnumbered but I'd like him to be either more durable or actually do damage. I mean, the decoy is a hologram right? Why does it take damage at all if it doesn't do any? At higher levels it dies super quick making it really just a brief reprieve from fire while you escape. I much prefer using Decoy to set up ambushes. This requires it to last longer. A possible change would be to just have him take no damage and only disappear when his timer runs out.

Idea: Explosive/Shock Decoy - At the end of your decoys life, he explodes! Does explosive/elemental damage and has a change to stun enemies in range. Trigger this ability early by activating Decoy again (Costs additional energy). As a nerf, the damage done is dependent on how long the Decoy has been active. This way, he wouldn't become just an bomb you send somewhere and then instantly destroy. 

 

2. Invisibility

Works fine the way it is. No nonsense can't-hit-what-you-cant-see. Do tons of melee damage.

 

3. Switch teleport

The ability that I use the least, hands down. The problem is that just switching with one enemy alone is pointless unless you need to move across and area quickly. But then you've got an enemy behind you that may have to be dealt with.

You can use this to enter a group of enemies as a setup for Radial Blind but if the enemies are too strong, you risk getting killed in those brief moments after teleporting. It's only really viable if you use invisibility first.

Idea: Stunning Switch Teleport - Switching places with an enemy unleashes a small stun wave giving the Loki time to do some damage. This make Switch Teleport more of a Dynamic Entry ability with a little combat usefulness.

 

4. Radial Disarm

I think this works pretty well at times. I feel left out because other frames do lots of damage when they press 4 and I just kinda induce what is really a debuf on the enemies. Afterall, a dead enemy is also a disarmed enemy.

Idea: Don't have one for this ability

[Winchester117]

Yeah I don't think players read this carefully enough, I am not trying to change his playstyle, his style is great and I love him for that but he needs to be more team friendly and the people posting against this obviously never do alot of top tier missions with Loki in a group so I am ignoring the hate. I want players to take Loki on the hardest mission you know with 3 friends and wait until you guys are in a good firefight and then cast radial disarm. You will be safe because you have Invisibility but watch your friends get pummeled. Switch Teleport needs a major upgrade,that goes without saying. Decoy needs to take no damage because its a hologram and should just have a timer. Everything else is fine just do something about Radial Disarm I tested it out and it does get the team killed in the big missions.

[fatpig84]

Lastly, Radial Disarm: The ultimate ability that kills your team. In a low level mission disarming enemies is fine but in high level missions it's a nightmare. Because high level enemies without guns are still high level enemies. They just throw their guns away, pull out their giant sparklers and decide to gang rape the team but beating them to death. The still do high damage because they are still high level. For Loki this isn't a problem, he can turn invisible and start slashing away but the team cant and they will get swarmed. Point is, it replaces one problem with an entirely new one and in defense, the last thing you want is for enemies to swarm the pod. I think it should be more like a 10 second stun where it makes their weapons malfunction and they take a few seconds to fix their gear giving the team enough time to either run or raise hell.

 

 

Dude. If you are talking a team scenario, then you also weigh in the team composition.

 

Radial disarm in it's current form has the best team synergy with Nyx or Vauban.

Hell even for Nova or Mag Prime, because with all enemies bum rushing so closely together, their AOE effects are greatly magnified.

 

Turning RD into a 10 second stun will make it no different from Rhino Stomp.

Except with no damage.

Edited May 2, 2014 by fatpig84

[BrazilianJoe]

Decoy should definitely scale better. It also needs reworking on conclave and conflict missions. To the eyes of the enemy, it is another warframe. When an enemy casts decoy, to the eyes of the players it should be just like another warframe/spectre, not that shiny energy dude which doesn't move. 

 

 

DON'T. TOUCH. RADIAL. DISARM. It is perfect as is.

No skill should be a uber do-all, be-all. Defense missions have a specific target for the enemy, and casting radial disarm may make a huge mob come to it. It's called STRATEGY and the player should choose the best time to use the skill. Then, we also have infested defense, which is all about 100% melee enemies swarming the pod, so I fail to see an actual problem here. If you can't deal withteh enemy on long range, you probably can't deal with melee too. That means you are playing too high level misisons. go with a strong team to level up faster, or go on easier missions until you can face those enemies. 

 

Invisibility is just fine as well, don't mess with it. 

 

I think Decoy needs rework, but first things first:

 

Swap decoy and switch teleport. Switch teleport is very very situational. If you think about both skills, a more powerful decoy can easily be the level 3 skill, and having switch teleport as a level 1 does not actually seem too OP. increase the energy cost if you will, to compensate; but even that may not be necessary.

 

The decoy could draw from the whole spectre development and actually summon a full-blown spectre created by the player. That would require increasing the ability cost, since it would give it much more usability, but being a level 3 skill, thing would work out well. According to the skill level, it would summon a Specter up to that level, if available, or the next one with less power. If there is no specter in the player's inventory, the skill is unavaible and just gives a bleeper with the text 'you must build a specter first!'

[(PSN)starkweather75]

"But in a team he is not very useful"

 

 

Do you even Loki bro?

 

 

Loki is one frame that DOES. NOT. NEED. TO. BE. TOUCHED. If you take the time to learn how to use him, and it doesn't take very long, you will see that he is perfect as is. Not just running around cloaked, but really use all four skills. Loki is a shining example of a perfect warframe.

 

Ash needs attention first before any other warframe right now. And probably a few other I don't use normally use so I don't know who else, but for the love of all that is good and holy, leave Loki ALONE. I'm begging you DE, ignore this thread.

Edited May 2, 2014 by (PS4)starkweather75

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

I dont wanna sound mean or anythin but.... Have you used Loki? hes like the only Warframe that is all about Utility and is perfectly balanced so why does he need a rework? i dont get it

[RealPandemonium]

Enemy AI does not change with level; decoy is slightly less effective at higher levels (due to its finite hp) but not really due to its spammability and Radial Disarm.

 

Invisibility is kind of overpowered (wouldn't be the only thing) but creates a fun alternative play-style for Loki.

 

Switch Teleport provides amazing mobility, especially combined with Decoy and can be used in a supportive manner to move teammates out of a bad situation or move enemy Heavies or Leaders away from allies.  

 

Radial Disarm trivializes game content because your team can just kite enemies and kill them  and disarmed enemies will prioritize out-of-reach Decoys over the defense target.  

 

The OP is completely off the mark and is either trolling or has poor understanding of game mechanics. 

Edited May 2, 2014 by RealPandemonium

[arisaka]

I agree with many of the posters here: Loki does not need a rework but there are definitely ways to make him better. As it stands his effectiveness is one of the least enemy-level-dependent out of all the Warframes, which is a very good thing and speaks volumes about his good design because this game has a lot of problems that are caused by level scaling.

 

The decoy definitely needs to be invincible but last a shorter amount of time. Invisibility lasts so damn long (too long?) but otherwise it's fine. Radial Disarm doesn't need changes either since it synergizes very well with Decoy.

 

Switch Teleport isn't super useful right now. My question is, why does the target's and Loki's positions have to be switched? It would be much more useful if it didn't displace an enemy into, well, the middle of up to three other Tenno, since that enemy has to be killed as well. Also, two out of three factions have projectile weapons so the displaced enemy is more likely than not able to shoot at Loki or his teammates from any position in the room. But since it would be a bad idea, in my opinion, to take out the switching part, I think the enemy teleported should be knocked down instead of being stunned for one second, which would open that enemy up to a finisher attack, and if Loki is invisible when he switches an ALLY, the ally will receive invisibility for 3/4/5/6 seconds (based on the level of invisibility with no duration scaling from mods).

 

Also, to have more synergy with Decoy, maybe it could increase the duration by a percentage of its max duration based on the DISTANCE it moves during the teleport. Maybe a maximum of 50% duration refreshed by teleporting it 50% of the maximum teleport distance, with linear scaling? For example, if a 20 second decoy only has 7 seconds left, teleporting it 40m (more than 50% of ST's max range of 75 meters at max level) would boost the decoy to 17 seconds.

Edited May 4, 2014 by arisaka

[Methanoid]

Don't touch loki

 

^ this, loki oozes "fine as is" just like excal and a few others.

[HackShield]

1. decoy works well in high lvl with disarm

 

2. uhm loki = paperplane so hidden paperplane

 

3. worked well to switch a heavy away or get out of crowd

 

4. you doing ti wrong if youre solo and do that YOURE fault if you die on it but in a high game disarm and enjoy the vuaban to there work or chaos em

   teamwork is the key.

[Dogoframe]

I am not talking bad about Loki. He is my favorite frame but if you ever played him with a team on top tier missions you will know that decoy is useless there and radial disarm is basically setting up a gang rape on your friends . I am not saying nerf him, I am saying make him more viable in a team because he isn't a team friendly frame and he gets players killed in the big missions with big enemies.

Sorry to be that guy, but if your team is having more trouble with Radial Disarmed enemies than when they had their weapons, the problem is with the team, not the ability at all.

 

Even tho they still do damage and yes that damage can kill you, they cant outspeed you even if you are not trying hard to be a speedy Tenno. One Decoy after the Disarm and all their cattle prods target your hologram.

[Krosly]

Only thing Loki needs is to be switched whit Ash when it come to first 3 starter frames. Loki can really ruin all the fun for newbies. Not that he is a bad frame but you have no abilities that do damage so it seems that everything you do is useless. He was my starter frame so I speak from experience. As soon as I found out what Ash was I started to grind for him, but while doing so I started to understand the game more and how to use Loki. Anyway Im sure this has already been mentioned.

 

To OP regarding his abilities. How is Decoy useless against high level enemies? I have been doing quite a lot T3D whit Loki and I see highest level Heavy Gunners focus on my decoy just the same as first wave grunts. 

As for Radial Disarm. Those higher level enemies melee attacks don't hurt nearly as much as their ranged weapons do + the have to close the distance to get to your team first. Also their melee attack animations are pretty slow which reduces their overall DPS to almost nothing compared to their ranged weapons DPS.

 

Sure, hes not as popular as Ash or Rhino but that doesn't mean he needs to be reworked so everybody would want to play him.

Edited May 4, 2014 by krish698

[Silver_Fox75]

Toucheth noteth my Loki peasant. Loki master race 

/thread.

P.S. Further suggestions like this will lead to the crushing of the greedy milk from your skull.