CaligoIllioneus Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 (edited) I disagree...hardly a surprise, right? Heh. By the way, what a melodramatic title. You should go all the way and name it "Secret circle of hardcore wannabees release shadowy hotfix changes with the aim of ruining the fun of all the playerbase and they successfully kill the game". Anyway, my point stands: Difficulty needs to stay like this. If solo play is proven to be effectively broken (it is not) and if people are dying to complete the hardest areas of the game while being shocked that one person does worse than four persons...then apply some sort of scaling process where more or harder enemies spawn for groups. While that system is absent, difficulty must not change. Edited April 4, 2013 by CaligoIllioneus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SolluxCaptorTA Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 Honestly, I think this was just a mistake. "We want passive buffs!" (And I did. I also want to see passive buffs on weapons too, just so ranking up does something even without mods.) And they added passive buffs. "The game is too easy!" And they made it harder. Both times they went too far, adding way too much HP/Shields and then scaling the difficulty too far up. So yes, keep the thread going since I used to be able to one or two shot Moas on Pluto (with a weak spot shot with a crazy modded potatoed Lex), and now I'm lucky to drop their shields with one shot. But don't say the Devs are idiots or evil or anything, they just made a game adjustment and went too far with it, like last time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaligoIllioneus Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 (edited) Honestly, I think this was just a mistake. "We want passive buffs!" (And I did. I also want to see passive buffs on weapons too, just so ranking up does something even without mods.) And they added passive buffs. "The game is too easy!" And they made it harder. Both times they went too far, adding way too much HP/Shields and then scaling the difficulty too far up. So yes, keep the thread going since I used to be able to one or two shot Moas on Pluto (with a weak spot shot with a crazy modded potatoed Lex), and now I'm lucky to drop their shields with one shot. But don't say the Devs are idiots or evil or anything, they just made a game adjustment and went too far with it, like last time. Finally a reasonable post, even if I don't think they went too far this time - it kind of balances out with the previous overpowering of shields and HP, in my opinion. I'm tired of all the doomsaying and lying about how now the game is literally impossible, grineers shoot nukes, and nervos came back and now hunt in packs. Heh. Edited April 4, 2013 by CaligoIllioneus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanaris Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 I don't know, CaligoIllioneus. I have a supercharged 30 Excalibur. Not the beefiest of Warframes, but I have 600 shields and 500 health. I've been farming Titania for Ash parts and despite the fact that I'm pretty good at this game, I can get gunned down very quickly from a dozen enemies that magically spawn in right behind me without a chance to make it to new cover. The spawning is annoying enough in this game, now they deal an absurd amount of damage. And if I try to be a ninja and sprint around from hiding spot to hiding spot? I get whittled away anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
novac3721 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 Yeah, Seems like the enemy tracking was generally improved. Which is fine, except for the damage boost they got as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmegaPaladin Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 I disagree...hardly a surprise, right? Heh. By the way, what a melodramatic title. You should go all the way and name it "Secret circle of hardcore wannabees release shadowy hotfix changes with the aim of ruining the fun of all the playerbase and they successfully kill the game". Anyway, my point stands: Difficulty needs to stay like this. If solo play is proven to be effectively broken (it is not) and if people are dying to complete the hardest areas of the game while being shocked that one person does worse than four persons...then apply some sort of scaling process where more or harder enemies spawn for groups. While that system is absent, difficulty must not change. Why? I'm being serious here. What does DE gain from making the game extra-hard for all players? I'm honestly curious how you feel this benefits the developer. As beta testers, we should be concerned about how well the game will do in the market. Also, I think there is solid support for either level scaling or increased difficulty settings. I understand you want more of a challenge, and that's cool. (I used to play with enemy rockets on in Goldeneye - that was some explosive fun, albeit very hard to beat) Other people don't want that level of challenge. That's why difficulty levels arose in the first place! We have variety in warframes, why can't we have variety in difficulty levels for a given mission? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ12 Posted April 4, 2013 Author Share Posted April 4, 2013 (edited) Finally a reasonable post, even if I don't think they went too far this time - it kind of balances out with the previous overpowering of shields and HP, in my opinion. I'm tired of all the doomsaying and lying about how now the game is literally impossible, grineers shoot nukes, and nervos came back and now hunt in packs. Heh. A "reasonable post" = "post where people agree with game design that locks 90% or more of the playerbase out of half the game"? That's a very interesting and biased definition of 'reasonable' you have over there, my friend. Unless all my runthroughs of Crysis 1, Warhead, 2, 3, all the Call of Duty modern warfare and black ops games, and more (including a ton of oldschool FPSes) on the hardest difficulty modes didn't actually happen, I literally should not be having much, if any, trouble with the game. Certainly not considering anything 'unwinnable'. Now, I admit, there are plenty of players better than me. I'm not some kind of multiplayer wrecking machine. There are also tons of players who are far, far worse than me. If you think this game is just right in difficulty, well okay. Clearly you're not a good balance point. Edited April 4, 2013 by MJ12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenogear Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 Wait, so I'm not supposed to get facerolled when I try to solo the higher level missions? My life has been changed. I'm kidding, of course, but you're right. Warframe is not supposed to be a cover game. Hehe... A Cover game with no Cover system!! WOOHOO!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenogear Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/19610-taking-cover/ Cover system!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xevious Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 Finally a reasonable post, even if I don't think they went too far this time - it kind of balances out with the previous overpowering of shields and HP, in my opinion. I'm tired of all the doomsaying and lying about how now the game is literally impossible, grineers shoot nukes, and nervos came back and now hunt in packs. Heh. You should try Exta in the Ceres system right now. I dare ya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaligoIllioneus Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 (edited) I don't know, CaligoIllioneus. I have a supercharged 30 Excalibur. Not the beefiest of Warframes, but I have 600 shields and 500 health. I've been farming Titania for Ash parts and despite the fact that I'm pretty good at this game, I can get gunned down very quickly from a dozen enemies that magically spawn in right behind me without a chance to make it to new cover. The spawning is annoying enough in this game, now they deal an absurd amount of damage. And if I try to be a ninja and sprint around from hiding spot to hiding spot? I get whittled away anyway. I don't really think it's wrong that one can die in these mission. One ends up adapting, or playing more carefully. I mean, you probably didn't die before when farming for Ash parts...I don't really think such a big part of the game should be able to be farmed solo risk-free. It is hard to solo because you're doing the work of four. So each time you successfully complete a high level area solo you have to think how easy 4 people have it. If you balance this coop game around soloing, you end up with an extremely easy game. Right now going by how many people are complaining, I think they should implement some sort of scaling between solo and online play. Why? I'm being serious here. What does DE gain from making the game extra-hard for all players? I'm honestly curious how you feel this benefits the developer. As beta testers, we should be concerned about how well the game will do in the market. Also, I think there is solid support for either level scaling or increased difficulty settings. I understand you want more of a challenge, and that's cool. (I used to play with enemy rockets on in Goldeneye - that was some explosive fun, albeit very hard to beat) Other people don't want that level of challenge. That's why difficulty levels arose in the first place! We have variety in warframes, why can't we have variety in difficulty levels for a given mission? What do they gain? Making a better game. Instant gratification and a very easy game can bring a lot of people, but those people are hard to keep. When you "max" what you want, and every mission becomes a cakewalk, there's nothing to strive for. The fact that some drops are rare helps with this, artificially increasing the time they take to "max" stuff...but still....all the things you strive for end up being reduced to a farm, to the RNG. In my opinion, in terms of difficulty, a perfect game would be welcoming to new players, but the challenge would get upped progressively, and there should always be some content that is very hard to defeat. These things make people more invested in the game. When every mission is easy to do, there's no real gratification in actually finishing them. Are we really going to let the RNG decide when a player should get gratification and when he shouldn't? Because that's the exact thing we were changing when DE implemented passive upgrades. The RNG is important, but it shouldn't be the only challenge of the game. The problem is that the new trend is just this..appealing to a broader audience, and instant gratification. So yes, I won't say that making the game easy will generate, say, a flop, or anything. But I don't think changing how the difficulty works will do the game wrong, either. In the end, I did change my opinion a bit, so I would favor changes if a part of the game keeps some challenge, and if it provides rewards. -- Anyways, these are my opinions. People like MJ12 have a very fixed dichotomy in their heads... elitist, scummy pros, vs the People. They will always skim over this and decry it as an elitist plan to ruin the game for 90% of the playerbase...so there's really no point in arguing. -- You should try Exta in the Ceres system right now. I dare ya. I would...but is the boss in solo play the same kind of bullet sponge he is when you're in a party? I did it after the update with 3 other people while the level was under cryogenic leakage (half shields). We had a few deaths and I had to spend a revive but we made it. I would do solo, but if the boss has the same amount of HP I will simply run out of ammo. Edited April 4, 2013 by CaligoIllioneus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
novac3721 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 No cover system, and no crazy damage either. I'll play ME3 when I want that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanaris Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 When you solo you're not doing the work of four players alone. Number of enemies scales with number of players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ12 Posted April 4, 2013 Author Share Posted April 4, 2013 Anyways, these are my opinions. People like MJ12 have a very fixed dichotomy in their heads... elitist, scummy pros, vs the People. They will always skim over this and decry it as an elitist plan to ruin the game for 90% of the playerbase...so there's really no point in arguing. Maybe then every one of your posts shouldn't be a scummy elitist pro tirade about how the ~masses~ don't understand how this game is still totally easy honest? If it walks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, if it has wings like a duck, and if it literally has a label on it that says 'duck'... it's a duck. But do tell me. How exactly is defending a level of difficulty that is nearly unplayable or frustratingly unfun for people who aren't exactly zero-skill noobs with the deluded idea that this is "more fun" because it gives me "something to strive towards" (if I wanted to strive towards being punched in the $&*^ repeatedly I'd be doing MMA fighting) anything but elitism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoudra Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 I did phorrid a couple of times today and the sniper scavenger "?" mission today with a buddy and 2 randoms, not sure if we just meshed together or something. However, I did see I got hit harder but I didn't die. Twice someone bled out but, we patched them up and ran together just fine. We cleared and we won. On Phorrid we only ran after killing him. Wondering if I was really lucky or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaligoIllioneus Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 (edited) Maybe then every one of your posts shouldn't be a scummy elitist pro tirade about how the ~masses~ don't understand how this game is still totally easy honest? If it walks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, if it has wings like a duck, and if it literally has a label on it that says 'duck'... it's a duck. But do tell me. How exactly is defending a level of difficulty that is nearly unplayable or frustratingly unfun for people who aren't exactly zero-skill noobs with the deluded idea that this is "more fun" because it gives me "something to strive towards" (if I wanted to strive towards being punched in the $&*^ repeatedly I'd be doing MMA fighting) anything but elitism? Your premise is invalid, so I can't answer that question...though it's a rhetorical question, heh. You, sir, are a fanatic, and you see in black and white. Please drop this Crusade and see the shades of gray. Both the "leet pros" and the instant gratification casuals have this mindset. I did phorrid a couple of times today and the sniper scavenger "?" mission today with a buddy and 2 randoms, not sure if we just meshed together or something. However, I did see I got hit harder but I didn't die. Twice someone bled out but, we patched them up and ran together just fine. We cleared and we won. On Phorrid we only ran after killing him. Wondering if I was really lucky or something. It's because people are exaggerating, or rather, a couple of people are exaggerating, and some other few got frustrated because they died and they forgot how it felt, so they came here in agreement. Your post disproves all these valiant claims of the game being "nigh unplayable". But of course they will say you are actually a proffessional Warframe gamer with lightning reflexes, and you got paired with two other pros who happen to hate the common People because they're inferior. Edited April 4, 2013 by CaligoIllioneus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTenthDoc Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 (edited) One thing 100% needs fixing-"rescues" need to have their health and shields adjusted too, especially if they plan on ever fixing the fact that you can just ditch them and win by getting to extraction. I can't imagine doing an infested rescue mission in the higher planets right now, you drop aggro for one second and your rescue-ee must get ripped to shreds. I will say that (at least solo) I haven't noticed any boss changes, though I'm far from endgame. Ruk seemed easier when I was doing runs for an ember, actually, and Vay Hek was a total joke the first time I ever fought him. Edited April 4, 2013 by TheTenthDoc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaligoIllioneus Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 One thing 100% needs fixing-"rescues" need to have their health and shields adjusted too, especially if they plan on ever fixing the fact that you can just ditch them and win by getting to extraction. I can't imagine doing an infested rescue mission in the higher planets right now, you drop aggro for one second and your rescue-ee must get ripped to shreds. I will say that (at least solo) I haven't noticed any boss changes, though I'm far from endgame. Ruk seemed easier when I was doing runs for an ember, actually. I actually hope they never fix that, and they make the missions feel more complete by changing the mechanics and making you have to extract the hostage teleporting him away, similar to what you do in Capture missions. Escort Missions suck in games... not only because of frustrating difficulty, but because no matter how good the AI is, the prisoner will always find a way to screw everything up..heh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xevious Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 I would...but is the boss in solo play the same kind of bullet sponge he is when you're in a party? I did it after the update with 3 other people while the level was under cryogenic leakage (half shields). We had a few deaths and I had to spend a revive but we made it. I would do solo, but if the boss has the same amount of HP I will simply run out of ammo. That aside, I had a friend who's killed him close to 50 times today (not exaggerating) trying to get Frost Systems, and it still hasn't dropped. I mean the exponential increase in difficulty is one thing, but to add the significant nerf in drop rates in the mix just makes it anti-fun in my opinion. And to farm that long for one component and still not getting it is certainly not gratifying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brasten Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 The problem DE faces is that mods currently use a % system for Shields and Health. This is BIG problem for exactly the reason we are seeing own. With the passives added the base total of shields/health on frames went up so the amount of boost on those %s also went up. If most mods used flat values instead being based on the frame they were attached too DE could tweak those mods instead of having to boost enemy damage. Doing the same with %s causes wonky unbalanced things to happen between Low and High value frames. Look at Armor ratings. Because its a % boost the Rhino and Frost are the only two Frames that really get any benefit from it. I strongly encourage DE to go back to hard values on basic things like Shield/Health/Armor/Energy/Non-Elemental Damage. It will make balance tweaks easier to manage in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanaris Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 (edited) I actually hope they never fix that, and they make the missions feel more complete by changing the mechanics and making you have to extract the hostage teleporting him away, similar to what you do in Capture missions. Escort Missions suck in games... not only because of frustrating difficulty, but because no matter how good the AI is, the prisoner will always find a way to screw everything up..heh. I'll agree with you there. The idiot AI captive we have to escort out either takes cover in the dumbest places or just stands there. Not to mention they have a gun they never use. Edited April 4, 2013 by Kanaris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exterminatus Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 What was advertised to me: What I expected: What I got as of Update 7.7: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ12 Posted April 4, 2013 Author Share Posted April 4, 2013 What was advertised to me: What I expected: What I got as of Update 7.7: Hmm, not quite my experience. What was advertised to me: What I expected: What I got: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaligoIllioneus Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 That aside, I had a friend who's killed him close to 50 times today (not exaggerating) trying to get Frost Systems, and it still hasn't dropped. I mean the exponential increase in difficulty is one thing, but to add the significant nerf in drop rates in the mix just makes it anti-fun in my opinion. And to farm that long for one component and still not getting it is certainly not gratifying. I don't think they nerfed blueprint drops. I had to farm a lot for the Frost Systems, and that was before the update, and it dropped two runs or so after the update hit. It's the RNG, not the update. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronyn Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 LOL Yesterday it was a multiple threads about how easy the game is with the new stats and now its multiple threads about how hard it because of incrased enemies difficulty. I understand the concerns but the severity in which these things are described seems a bit much. So maybe we should all give feedback but remain relaxed while they dial difficulty up and down to hit the sweet spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now