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Hotfix Changes Needlessly Sadistic, May Destroy Playerbase


MJ12
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Just did an alert in Xini with 30-40 Grineers and a 65 Tyg with a Frost who isnt even modded that good.

I do confess that my weapons are better with my Hek taking people down with a few shots, my Lato Vandal with puncture for shield Grineers, and my Scindo that can one-hit any normal troops.

I didnt die once. The other folks dropped a couple of times because they were a little too brave and ran into big rooms with too many Grineers but it was not impossible.

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Signed and +1d

All of this happened only to back up on the choice of screwing up the system due to passive shield/health buffs.

Difficulty and in general next to everything was near perfect before the passive buffs.

I strongly suggest to revert to that build cause the mess is just growing bigger and bigger.

No, all of this only happened because some people decided to whine about 'passive shield/health buffs' being too big since you no longer were required to use them instead of, you know, using those slots for something else. Reverting back to "that build" will just keep the exact same issues and still nuke the feeling of progression that you get for, you know, progressing in level.

Just did an alert in Xini with 30-40 Grineers and a 65 Tyg with a Frost who isnt even modded that good.

I do confess that my weapons are better with my Hek taking people down with a few shots, my Lato Vandal with puncture for shield Grineers, and my Scindo that can one-hit any normal troops.

I didnt die once. The other folks dropped a couple of times because they were a little too brave and ran into big rooms with too many Grineers but it was not impossible.

How many times have I told you 'the singular of anecdote is not data'? How many times do you keep ignoring just to spout "Well because I have a certain experience it must be the exact same for everyone." Also, play singleplayer and try that alert on for size.

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It doesn't work because the vast majority of enemy damage is hitscan. Seriously, have you played this game before?

It's called hitscan not homingscane..... move.

The do not have perfect aim.

Are we playing the same game here? The AI can be non-existent. The enemy can be turrets for all the good that'll do. It doesnt change the fact that a. hitscan damage KILLS YOU and b. the enemy has nothing to flush you out of cover so you can sit there and pick them off all day long.

Yes, i am wondering if we are playing the same game because i can avoid being hit by moving.

Enemies adjust to your path slowly. There isnt an enemy in the game that will hit you 100% of the time one it sees you if you MOVE.

Stop with this hitscan as an excuse.

...or you haven't made it past Saturn in this game, because playing cautiously by strafing back and forth behind cover while you wait for your shields to recharge is the only possible way to solo high level content.

You are not supposed to solo 30+ content easy.

Never.

No. You were never really able to run and gun in the higher levels unless you've got enough shields/hp to tank it. Avoiding fire simply doesn't work. You can dodge and weave all you want, you'll still get hit. They're bullets. They're hitscan. They're not rockets.

Upping the damage means you can afford to spend LESS time out in the open, which means LESS time moving about, which means hide behind cover and whack-a-mole.

30+ content has alway meant to be played in teams.

If you can do it solo.... good job but that is not something to be done alone with no trouble at all.

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No, all of this only happened because some people decided to whine about 'passive shield/health buffs' being too big since you no longer were required to use them instead of, you know, using those slots for something else. Reverting back to "that build" will just keep the exact same issues and still nuke the feeling of progression that you get for, you know, progressing in level.
You mean ~all of this only happened because some people decided to whine about 'wanting more health/shields cause the game was too hard for them', right?

Passive buffs were unnecessary and screwed up game difficulty completely.

There are some people who also want the mod system to contain stuff nobody needs, cause thats their idea of "optional".

Sorry mate, but i can only repeat myself in regards of the question. If you wish to play bullet sponge, then install Duke Nukem instead of ruining the game for everyone, and you are still an explanation behind on this note, cause nothing you have said made the slightest bit of sense.

Edited by Aerensiniac
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Higher level missions before this update were difficult. I played against phorid looking for Nyx Parts yesterday with my friends and, while it took literally ages, we were able to succeed. Now, with a max level Loki Warframe with Vitality giving +240% health and redirection giving +200% shield, he still oneshots me, regardless of which attacks he uses. Most of the Phorids attacks are also literally unavoidable. This irritates me quite a bit. I gave up and did an alert mission after that and lower rank enemies (22-26) started damaging me to near death in seconds, and that's a problem. The game was just fine difficulty-wise yesterday. Only complaint I could give you then was that bosses had too much health, but I assumed it was because I was using the default rifle. Now this game is outright impossible and needs to be fixed.

Edited by Meatuchu
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It's called hitscan not homingscane..... move.

The do not have perfect aim.

Volume of fire makes up for aim, and statistically, if you increase the damage of each bullet, then the time you can afford being out in the open decreases drastically.

Yes, i am wondering if we are playing the same game because i can avoid being hit by moving.

Enemies adjust to your path slowly. There isnt an enemy in the game that will hit you 100% of the time one it sees you if you MOVE.

Stop with this hitscan as an excuse.

Go, right now, to Outer Terminus. Just you. And tell me again how awesome you are at dodging shots. Try it. Go run and gun. See how long you last in the open. Yes, if you move a bit, the amount of bullets which will hit you will decrease, However, this means jack S#&$ when there's enough fire that you'll only live 5 seconds longer moving compared to standing still.

You are not supposed to solo 30+ content easy.

Never.

Problem is - I AM soloing 30+ content easy - by playing hide behind cover and whack-a-mole.

30+ content has alway meant to be played in teams.

The gigantic SOLO button at the top of my screen says you're wrong.

Edited by mithie2
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How many times have I told you 'the singular of anecdote is not data'? How many times do you keep ignoring just to spout "Well because I have a certain experience it must be the exact same for everyone." Also, play singleplayer and try that alert on for size.

The point is.... which you obviously missed.... is that people are playing the content. I played with a team and im sure we were not the only people running that mission or any of that level content. That means that all these claims of being impossible are just not valid.

And how many times must i tell you folks 30+ content is NOT something you can do alone with no trouble at all.

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You mean ~all of this only happened because some people decided to whine about 'wanting more health/shields cause the game was too hard for them', right?

Passive buffs were unnecessary and screwed up game difficulty completely.

There are some people who also want the mod system to contain stuff nobody needs, cause thats their idea of "optional".

Actually no, the game wasn't hard pre-7.6. It was just frustratingly random and had a 'mod system' which wasn't a mod system.

"Contain stuff nobody needs"? Well duh. That's why it's called a mod system. Nobody needs Vitality and Redirection. But if you take a lot of hits you'll want them. That's the point of a mod system. It's called 'customization'. Except pre-7.6 you didn't have 'customization' because you either put on Vitality and Redirection if you had them or played 'Failframe', a game of being completely pathetic and instantly dying.

Sorry mate, but i can only repeat myself in regards of the question. If you wish to play bullet sponge, then install Duke Nukem instead of ruining the game for everyone, and you are still an explanation behind on this note, cause nothing you have said made the slightest bit of sense.

The only reason 'nothing I have said made the slightest bit of sense' is because your reading comprehension is awful. So why am I ruining the game for asking for actual level progression and a modification system that is, you know, a modification system? Pre-7.7 but post-7.6, the game was at a sweet spot where I didn't feel like I needed Vitality/Redirection anymore and could swap them for something. I ended up being squishy and I died/nearly died a few times because of it, but it actually felt like they were unnecessary for gameplay.

That was a fantastic feeling. People who insist on "NO PASSIVE UPGRADES" because, apparently, having some sense of progression when you level-up instead of playing the RNG game (have you guys ever played games like Borderlands or Diablo 1/2 or any Action RPG? Without a sense of progression the game becomes stale very fast) and being 100% gear-dependent is a bad thing, let alone the fact that the 'mod system' in Update 7 before 7.6 was "Stick Vitality and Redirection on first, then see what you can fit past them" (which not only gimped free players but also meant people used powers way less, the game's difficulty was idiosyncratic, and there was no guarantee of any sort of ability to progress, which is the biggie) and thus not actually a 'mod system' at all because you had absolutely required mods...

Yes, that was so much better than the game being balanced so you actually had a 'mod system' that was worth the name, instead of a mod system which was weakened by the fact that it had to also double as a level-up system and a system to determine the difficulty of the game.

Edited by MJ12
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Volume of fire makes up for aim, and statistically, if you increase the damage of each bullet, then the time you can afford being out in the open decreases drastically.

Go, right now, to Outer Terminus. Just you. And tell me again how awesome you are at dodging shots. Try it. Go run and gun. See how long you last in the open. Yes, if you move a bit, the amount of bullets which will hit you will decrease, However, this means jack S#&$ when there's enough fire that you'll only live 5 seconds longer moving compared to standing still.

Look, my argument was never over soloing 30+ content.

Who the hell solos 30+ content by doing anything but rushing to the objective?

Problem is - I AM soloing 30+ content easy - by playing hide behind cover and whack-a-mole.

So there is no problem?

At this point i have no idea what you are trying to say.

The gigantic SOLO button at the top of my screen says you're wrong.

Yeah, and you can very easily according to what you just posted..... so i have no idea why you made any of these post.

What to start with that next if you are going to reply?

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Look, my argument was never over soloing 30+ content.

Who the hell solos 30+ content by doing anything but rushing to the objective?

I did? Plenty of people did. It's clear that 'rushing to the objective' wasn't the intended way of play.

So there is no problem?

At this point i have no idea what you are trying to say.

He is trying to say "Warframe was/is a good game because it allowed aggressive maneuvering over taking cover behind things and playing Time Crisis as Tenno were capable of taking a relatively high amount of fire before dying and thus didn't need cover. Now because of the buffs to enemy damage the only viable method to solo higher-difficulty missions for everyone except an elite few is playing Time Crisis by ducking behind objects and shooting, which removes the main selling point of the game."

If Warframe is just a s**tty cover shooter now why should I play it instead of a good cover shooter? That's the question his post is asking.

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Agreeing with the OP of this thread, I find it very choice that when asked "At least try Single Player" the responses are either "LOL SINGLE PLAYER SHOULD BE HARD!" or "But why should I have to~".

Single Player is not meant to be hardcore mode, at least not solely. It's also meant for players whose connections cannot handle latency issues, and for players who prefer to not need to play within a group. The current damage scaling, essentially, &!$$es in these two players' Cheerios, and the people in this thread who refuse to even entertain a thought other than "Shut up tiny kiddy babies" are trying to tell them that the golden stream is in-fact milk.

MJ mentions that these updates, if purposeful, cater towards Hardcore / "Professional" gamers at the expense of those who were casually playing beforehand. The proper way to debate this point is not to tell MJ "suck it up newbie" or "Well if you were more skilled this wouldn't be a problem now would it?" In fact, it makes his point for him. Though by all means do go on about how this game should appeal to a smaller demographic and change its gameplay / thematic direction mid-Beta.

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So there is no problem?

At this point i have no idea what you are trying to say

Yeah, and you can very easily according to what you just posted..... so i have no idea why you made any of these post.

What to start with that next if you are going to reply?

My point was - if you'd bothered to read it, was that currently, the approach to enemy design completely destroys core gameplay mechanics at higher levels. The gameplay is supposed to be fast, It's supposed to be vicious, and award high risk vs. reward gameplay. It's supposed to be about movement, tracking, aiming, shooting, and dodging - kind of how it currently is at low to mid difficulty levels

in the beginning, when the player first enters the game, there's a beauitiful sense of precision involved, which is why this game became so popular. You had to work with what you had, cover wasn't necessary and you didn't have the accurate guns to take advantage of it anyway, and nothing quite beats the satisfaction of mechanically pulling off a slide-run-dodge to stun every moa in a mob with lightning damage within the same second of closing in and taking them all out with well executed charged strikes of your sword. That's why the players decide to stick around, because hey, the gameplay is AWESOME!

Then, they move past Jupiter, and find out that this dangerous yet rewarding sense of precision is replaced by call of duty-type cover shooting, because movement is now rewarded by a hail of lethal bullets to the face.

THAT'S the problem.

High level content simply isn't fun because applying that risk vs. reward gameplay of fast movement and fast aiming just ends up getting you killed.

THAT is the real reason why people don't play high level content - not because it's hard, or it's challenging, but because right now, it's flat out boring. You either run through it, and flip a coin on whether your shields can outlast the mob spawns, or you play it like a cover-based shooter.

Edited by mithie2
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I did? Plenty of people did. It's clear that 'rushing to the objective' wasn't the intended way of play.

He is trying to say "Warframe was/is a good game because it allowed aggressive maneuvering over taking cover behind things and playing Time Crisis as Tenno were capable of taking a relatively high amount of fire before dying and thus didn't need cover. Now because of the buffs to enemy damage the only viable method to solo higher-difficulty missions for everyone except an elite few is playing Time Crisis by ducking behind objects and shooting, which removes the main selling point of the game."

If Warframe is just a s**tty cover shooter now why should I play it instead of a good cover shooter? That's the question his post is asking.

Outside of way back when you had huge shield pools and the last 3 days there was no point in time in the life of Warframe where soloing 30+ content didnt consist of running and hiding.

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@mithie2

I don't understand how you can have fun (time after time and again), no matter how many acrobatics you do, shooting harmless target drones that pose no threat.

So having no challenge, no need to pay attention to what type of mobs are ahead and what you have to deal with, who you should kill first, what you should be watching out for, planning your attack, paying attention to your surroundings, was fun. But having to actually notice the existance of enemies, and adjust your tactics accordingly, and you can't just run in and chase them around like headless chickens because they can't really harm you, having to God Forbid, actually fall back at times and use cover (since you're not made of titanium with kryptonite), and, guess what, you do have a solid chance to die, the game stops being fun?

As in, you can't farm high end planets like you play tetris, is a bad thing? Working for your loot, progressing through level, is a bad thing? You wanna go rambo style, go play terminus on mercury. You want to play Warframe, go past earth and use your brains (be it solo or Co-Op).

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Was on Oceania, but I just cycled through all zones - and same thing, 0 squads on pluto.

And what time is it during the day?

Right now in the US is morning and few people should be on.

Western Europe should be midday and i dont know what west counts as.

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My point was - if you'd bothered to read it, was that currently, the approach to enemy design completely destroys core gameplay mechanics at higher levels. The gameplay is supposed to be fast, It's supposed to be vicious, and award high risk vs. reward gameplay. It's supposed to be about movement, tracking, aiming, shooting, and dodging - kind of how it currently is at low to mid difficulty levels

in the beginning, when the player first enters the game, there's a beauitiful sense of precision involved, which is why this game became so popular. You had to work with what you had, cover wasn't necessary and you didn't have the accurate guns to take advantage of it anyway, and nothing quite beats the satisfaction of mechanically pulling off a slide-run-dodge to stun every moa in a mob with lightning damage within the same second of closing in and taking them all out with well executed charged strikes of your sword. That's why the players decide to stick around, because hey, the gameplay is AWESOME!

Then, they move past Jupiter, and find out that this dangerous yet rewarding sense of precision is replaced by call of duty-type cover shooting, because movement is now rewarded by a hail of lethal bullets to the face.

THAT'S the problem.

High level content simply isn't fun because applying that risk vs. reward gameplay of fast movement and fast aiming just ends up getting you killed.

THAT is the real reason why people don't play high level content - not because it's hard, or it's challenging, but because right now, it's flat out boring. You either run through it, and flip a coin on whether your shields can outlast the mob spawns, or you play it like a cover-based shooter.

Can you elaborate what "higher level content" means?

Cause pass Jupiter is not in my book.

Higher level content means the highest levels and you should not be soloing 30+ with no problems at all.

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have fun (time after time and again), no matter how many acrobatics you do, shooting harmless target drones that pose no threat.

Stop for a second. I don't want that at all. I WANT the enemies to be a threat. I WANT the enemies to try to kill me. I WANT to be smacked in the face by 10 vertically launched missiles every time I stand still. I WANT to be flushed out of cover by a shower of grenades. I WANT enemies to be able to lock me down and prevent me from getting clear shots. I WANT the level itself to try to kill me so that I'm forced to use all of my movement options JUST TO SURVIVE.

What I don't want are enemies which punish me for moving and reward me for standing behind a box. Read my post in this thread here:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/22810-movementcombat-suggestion/

THAT'S what I want. To make the game more dynamic. To reward movement. To make the enemies TRY AND KILL ME.

So having no challenge, no need to pay attention to what type of mobs are ahead and what you have to deal with, who you should kill first, what you should be watching out for, planning your attack, paying attention to your surroundings, was fun. But having to actually notice the existance of enemies, and adjust your tactics accordingly, and you can't just run in and chase them around like headless chickens because they can't really harm you, having to God Forbid, actually fall back at times and use cover (since you're not made of titanium with kryptonite), and, guess what, you do have a solid chance to die, the game stops being fun?

What tactics? What planning? Hiding behind the nearest cover and playing whack-a-mole at enemies who don't try to flank me or flush me out is hard, now?

As in, you can't farm high end planets like you play tetris, is a bad thing? Working for your loot, progressing through level, is a bad thing? You wanna go rambo style, go play terminus on mercury. You want to play Warframe, go past earth and use your brains (be it solo or Co-Op).

I AM farming high end planets like tetris right now. It's just extremely boring because there's NO BRAIN USAGE REQUIRED.

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Can you elaborate what "higher level content" means?

Highler level content means the game is supposed to make you use ALL of the toolset you have to the fullest in order to complete them. My Warframe, for example, has 4 skills and an extremely large set of movement options which include wall running, dashing, sliding, shooting while wall running, jump attacks, slide attacks, etc, and I expect high level content to require perfect mechanical execution of ALL of them in order to succeed. But right now, high level content means hiding in cover and testing my whack-a-mole skills.

Show us that screenshot again during the weekend :) Contrary to popular belief, some peeps have school, other jobs, and there is also a category that doesn't play same game non stop :)

Okay, that would be a valid point, if it were not for the fact that Venus, Mercury, and Mars are perfectly populated right now.

Edited by mithie2
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Outside of way back when you had huge shield pools and the last 3 days there was no point in time in the life of Warframe where soloing 30+ content didnt consist of running and hiding.

The week before Update 7, which wasn't 'back when you had huge shield pools' I was soloing 30+ content without 'running and hiding'. Post-Update 7 the moment I found Redirection/Vitality and boosted them I was soloing 30+ content without running and hiding.

Your statement is false.

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Make no mistake: the enemy buff was DEFINITELY needed! You do realise that the new passives were WAY overkill right? Now you can stack ridiculous amounts of shield and health. The buff was needed but if it needs further balancing that's another story. It makes sense that you need high level mods and gear to do the higher level missions and that's how it should be balanced. I for one can no longer solo pluto for example, but I don't have high level shield and damage mods, so until I do and find that it is still impossible to do those missions I won't ever say it isn't properly balanced, and I urge the rest of the playerbase to do the same before you just pronounce yourselves against this change.

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