Hotfix Changes Needlessly Sadistic, May Destroy Playerbase

[MJ12]

Make no mistake: the enemy buff was DEFINITELY needed! You do realise that the new passives were WAY overkill right? Now you can stack ridiculous amounts of shield and health. The buff was needed but if it needs further balancing that's another story. It makes sense that you need high level mods and gear to do the higher level missions and that's how it should be balanced. I for one can no longer solo pluto for example, but I don't have high level shield and damage mods, so until I do and find that it is still impossible to do those missions I won't ever say it isn't properly balanced, and I urge the rest of the playerbase to do the same before you just pronounce yourselves against this change.

High level shield/damage mods take tons of time and credits to grind because the fusion requirements are geometric. If you need to blow 200+ hours just to see Pluto there is something very wrong with the system since that's like 180 hours spent without actually experiencing anything 'new'.

Edited April 4, 2013 by MJ12

[WhiteSteel]

High level shield/damage mods take tons of time and credits to grind because the fusion requirements are geometric. If you need to blow 200+ hours just to see Pluto there is something very wrong with the system since that's like 180 hours spent without actually experiencing anything 'new'.

Maybe the game is too grindy now, but that's a whole other problem, let's try to stay on topic yes?

[Mithie]

Maybe the game is too grindy now, but that's a whole other problem, let's try to stay on topic yes?

...so you're saying putting gear way in front of player skill is the right direction for the game?

Actually, scratch that. Currently, high level content requires neither - just patience.

Edited April 4, 2013 by mithie2

[Meatuchu]

What might have been better for increasing difficulty is giving the player incentive to not just run past enemies. That's what made the game too easy imo.

[WhiteSteel]

...so you're saying putting gear way in front of player skill is the right direction for the game?

LOL where did I say that? Can you read?

[Mak_Gohae]

The week before Update 7, which wasn't 'back when you had huge shield pools' I was soloing 30+ content without 'running and hiding'. Post-Update 7 the moment I found Redirection/Vitality and boosted them I was soloing 30+ content without running and hiding.

Your statement is false.

Using a general player as an example and not some one fully modded up.

And let me get this straight...... you are not fully modded up and suddenly you cant do anything?

Why? Because the enemies hit harder and you have a smaller cushion?

[MJ12]

What might have been better for increasing difficulty is giving the player incentive to not just run past enemies. That's what made the game too easy imo.

I think the 'easy' thing comes from two things:

1. People played the game as a cover shooter and none of the enemies had very good methods of punishing cover cheesing. I would almost go as far to say that hiding in cover should be more likely to get you killed than standing still in the open. Not actually that far but it really should be around the same level of undesirable.

2. People running past enemies before they can take too many hits.

And instead of fixing either issue they broke the actual gameplay :(

[Mithie]

LOL where did I say that? Can you read?

Well, he's saying

a. high level content requires certain levels of gear

and

b. that gear is harder to get.

You're saying the gear being harder to get is a different problem, which infers that you don't see his first point as even being a problem.

Edited April 4, 2013 by mithie2

[Venarge]

Yeah my god, we noticed the enemy buffs. No need for the 4th thread about this.....

[MJ12]

Using a general player as an example and not some one fully modded up.

My mods pre-Update 7 were kinda crappy. Outside of my ridiculously OP Gorgon which I only used to make bossfights less annoying (not less difficult. Less annoying) most of them were level 10-20 trash. I had plenty of white mods on most of my Warframes.

So yes, still false. It was perfectly viable to solo high-level content without really good mods. Not easy but viable. Unless what you're saying is that I'm better than most players and thus my evaluation of the difficulty is actually underestimating how high it is?

And let me get this straight...... you are not fully modded up and suddenly you cant do anything?

Why? Because the enemies hit harder and you have a smaller cushion?

Yes, exactly. Because the enemies hit harder and doing 'cool things' like melee combat is now suicidal. In fact everything besides 'hide behind a crate and pop out to shoot' is dangerous. So suddenly I can't do anything. Whoops!

[Mithie]

I think the 'easy' thing comes from two things:

1. People played the game as a cover shooter and none of the enemies had very good methods of punishing cover cheesing. I would almost go as far to say that hiding in cover should be more likely to get you killed than standing still in the open. Not actually that far but it really should be around the same level of undesirable.

Yes, this is absolutely correct.

If we take a look at any number of highly successful movement-based shooters in the past, such as Serious Sam, Painkiller, Quake, there are certain gameplay elements which they all share.

1. The majority of the damage comes from projectile weapons which have a travelling time rather than hitscan. This is important, because it makes your skills at moving and dodging infinitely more important than your shield/hp statistics.

2. Cover isn't there to protect you from the enemy, it's there to project the enemy from YOU. Level geometry should be in favor of the enemy, forcing you to use your movement options to jump, climb, and tackle your way to clear firing lanes and flanking positions.

Both of these are currently missing in high level Warframe gameplay.

[WhiteSteel]

Well, he's saying

a. high level content requires certain levels of gear

and

b. that gear is harder to get.

You're saying the gear being harder to get is a different problem, which infers that you don't see his first point as even being a problem.

I said it is a different problem, I didn't say it wasn't a problem. It's important that we try to be concise and to the point, and address one problem at a time, it makes better feedback which in turn improves our chance of being heard by the devs.

[Meatuchu]

Yes, this is absolutely correct.

If we take a look at any number of highly successful movement-based shooters in the past, such as Serious Sam, Painkiller, Quake, there are certain gameplay elements which they all share.

1. The majority of the damage comes from projectile weapons which have a travelling time rather than hitscan. This is important, because it makes your skills at moving and dodging infinitely more important than your shield/hp statistics.

2. Cover isn't there to protect you from the enemy, it's there to project the enemy from YOU. Level geometry should be in favor of the enemy, forcing you to use your movement options to jump, climb, and tackle your way to clear firing lanes and flanking positions.

Both of these are currently missing in high level Warframe gameplay.

Sadly, the amount of time and effort it might take to completely redesign enemy tactics might be a bit too much to ask for, though I completely agree with you.

[Mithie]

Sadly, the amount of time and effort it might take to completely redesign enemy tactics might be a bit too much to ask for, though I completely agree with you.

Not neccessarily. The assets are already there.

1. Decrease the amount of damage hitscan weapons do to health.

2. Give each grineer lancer a grenade which they throw whenever the player is not moving.

3. Replace each other grineer's rifle with a rocket launcher that can be staggered in melee.

There.Now it's a faster paced game with less cover camping.

[Mak_Gohae]

My mods pre-Update 7 were kinda crappy. Outside of my ridiculously OP Gorgon which I only used to make bossfights less annoying (not less difficult. Less annoying) most of them were level 10-20 trash. I had plenty of white mods on most of my Warframes.

So yes, still false. It was perfectly viable to solo high-level content without really good mods. Not easy but viable. Unless what you're saying is that I'm better than most players and thus my evaluation of the difficulty is actually underestimating how high it is?

Yes, exactly. Because the enemies hit harder and doing 'cool things' like melee combat is now suicidal. In fact everything besides 'hide behind a crate and pop out to shoot' is dangerous. So suddenly I can't do anything. Whoops!

So you are mad because you can no longer do stuff with crappy mods.....

You should never have been able to do things with crappy mods.

And if you were running Pluto solo it's almost impossible that you were running with crappy mods.

[MJ12]

So you are mad because you can no longer do stuff with crappy mods.....

You should never have been able to do things with crappy mods.

And if you were running Pluto solo it's almost impossible that you were running with crappy mods.

I was running Pluto solo. I was using crappy mods to do it. Because I had passive upgrades, knew what I was doing, and enemy damage was manageable. And you know, I had a hundred plus hours invested in the game, I should have been able to run Pluto at that point. Also, 'non-crappy mods' implies you're playing on high-difficulty planets. How are you beating those planets which you need to beat to get non-crappy mods so you can beat those planets? If you can't do anything with crappy mods you run into that vicious "out of college and can't get a job" cycle.

And now I get this new hotfix which tells me that I'm a scrub and I should go back to Mercury.

Edited April 4, 2013 by MJ12

[WhiteSteel]

Don't forget there was a forced respec not long ago... The "hundred+ hours" argument is null.

And higher level missions don't give you "non-crappy mods" necessarily, they give you rarer mods, which is quite different. Shield and HP mods are common.

Edited April 4, 2013 by WhiteSteel

[MJ12]

Don't forget there was a forced respec not long ago... The "hundred+ hours" argument is null.

And higher level missions don't give you "non-crappy mods" necessarily, they give you rarer mods, which is quite different. Shield and HP mods are common.

I was talking pre-Update 7. Wherein I was running Pluto. With crappy mods. And still had 100+ hours in the game.

[WhiteSteel]

I was talking pre-Update 7. Wherein I was running Pluto. With crappy mods. And still had 100+ hours in the game.

Kay, sorry.

[Dasmir]

Hey look its MJ12 calling elitist again to everyone who dislike to rush the level and one-shooting everyting.

Plz.... I like the new difficult but the amount of other bugs its just $&*&*#(%&.

[Mak_Gohae]

I was running Pluto solo. I was using crappy mods to do it. Because I had passive upgrades, knew what I was doing, and enemy damage was manageable. And you know, I had a hundred plus hours invested in the game, I should have been able to run Pluto at that point. Also, 'non-crappy mods' implies you're playing on high-difficulty planets. How are you beating those planets which you need to beat to get non-crappy mods so you can beat those planets? If you can't do anything with crappy mods you run into that vicious "out of college and can't get a job" cycle.

And now I get this new hotfix which tells me that I'm a scrub and I should go back to Mercury.

You shouldnt be running Pluto solo clearing stages with crappy mods. And it was highly unlikely that you ever did unless you had Excalibur and all you did was SnD from start to finish. Did you do that?

[Mithie]

You shouldnt be running Pluto solo clearing stages with crappy mods. And it was highly unlikely that you ever did unless you had Excalibur and all you did was SnD from start to finish. Did you do that?

Don't be silly. I soloed pluto with a level 29 Trinity and a level 22 Paris.

It's not hard. Just tedious, long, and boring.

[EvilMind]

im confused

the game got harder for some ppl all of a sudden? didn't we just get some huge passive buffs to shield/hp/energy?

I'm also confused. I got a whole bunch of free shields and hp in patch 7.6. How exactly is it harder?

[MJ12]

You shouldnt be running Pluto solo clearing stages with crappy mods. And it was highly unlikely that you ever did unless you had Excalibur and all you did was SnD from start to finish. Did you do that?

No. I didn't. I actually did it with Ash. I did burn a ton of revives on it, though. But the difficulty was largely manageable. Hard, but manageable. Versus "You shoulnd't be able to do this" which is clearly the difficulty level you want.

Anyways I was doing it with... 400/400 shields/health and 80ish armor. They weren't exactly top-tier mods I was running.

Hey look its MJ12 calling elitist again to everyone who dislike to rush the level and one-shooting everyting.

Plz.... I like the new difficult but the amount of other bugs its just $&*&*#(%&.

Oh look Dasmir is claiming this fixes 'rush the level and one-shooting everything' when in fact it makes that the only way to play. Kill everything in one hit or get out.

Edited April 4, 2013 by MJ12

[Mak_Gohae]

Don't be silly. I soloed pluto with a level 29 Trinity and a level 22 Paris.

It's not hard. Just tedious, long, and boring.

Well you were using Trinity so....

Were your mods all rank 0?

No. I didn't. I actually did it with Ash. I did burn a ton of revives on it, though. But the difficulty was largely manageable. Hard, but manageable. Versus "You shoulnd't be able to do this" which is clearly the difficulty level you want.

Anyways I was doing it with... 400/400 shields/health and 80ish armor. They weren't exactly top-tier mods I was running.

So you were smoke bombing through the whole stage, right?

Edited April 4, 2013 by Mak_Gohae