[Revised Op] Would You Be Okay With Exclusive Items Retroactively Not Giving Mastery

[VegetableBasket]

Slightly irrelevant OP:

Please watch this video if you believe there is no point to mastery XP: http://youtu.be/CNtzE7BTUV8?t=16m25s

Quick question to the community, please answer it assuming changes are made to the game in this way:

1. Anything you can't get by playing the game right now would not give mastery XP
2. Any mastery XP you've earned would not be taken away from you, but you would have to earn an equal amount of mastery before your XP bar would increase again
(example)

You level 3 exclusive items, earning 9,000 mastery XP and leaving you at 27,000 master XP. A change is made removing mastery from exclusives, so you will have to earn 9,000 mastery XP before you gain mastery XP again, although you will stay at 27,000 mastery the entire time. Once you've earned 9,100 mastery you would be at 27,100 mastery, as if the item never gave mastery in the first place.

 

The reason I am asking:

There is no doubt that veteran players have an advantage over newer players. We have weapons, mods, and now helmets they can't have. The new focus system will be based on mastery level which means without a certain amount of exclusives, you will not be able to reach a certain tier of your focus tree. Someone starting today would not have acess to 45,000 mastery XP that is available to other players. The power gap between new and old players will only increase as long as the amount of exclusives does given the planned implementation of focus. I think it's a balance issue worth considering, and I don't know if the rest of the community would be willing to give up its exclusive mastery points for the sake of a level playing field. I also think the feeling of never being able to reach the level cap is very discouraging to newer players.

My personal answer is yes. Even though I am only missing one weapon and the power disparity would not affect me negatively.

 

While the issues I'm trying to discuss and reasoning I am using is still relevant, I think this would actually be a better solution, after pondering it:

 

Make focus only benefit players to the X mastery rank, where X is the highest mastery you can earn without any exclusives.

Edited May 6, 2014 by VegetableBasket

[reltats]

no

 

Edit: All the exclusive do is make so you can reach the higher mastery ranks slightly faster. If there are not enough weapons out there, which updates will make up the difference. Plus people need to stop complaining the veteran players have an edge. its PVE and when it comes to effective kill time there's no difference that's obtainable

Edited May 6, 2014 by reltats

[BrotherIcarus]

I guess I would be fine with it.

[Killist]

Over my dead body

[Exinanis]

I'm indifferent towards it. Not really much point in going past MR8 atm and DE pumps out new weapons pretty often, solving that amount of xp that we need to earn back before being able to earn anymore.

[gnat6]

Removing the mastery XP would remove the point of getting the event weapons in the first place because most of them are not worth using.

[VegetableBasket]

I'm indifferent towards it. Not really much point in going past MR8 atm and DE pumps out new weapons pretty often, solving that amount of xp that we need to earn back before being able to earn anymore.

The focus system will make mastery significant, which is why I'm asking.

 

 

Removing the mastery XP would remove the point of getting the event weapons in the first place because most of them are not worth using.

Well, did you abstain from the current event because the syandana is cosmetic? I understand what you mean though.

Edited May 6, 2014 by VegetableBasket

[SoulDust]

definite no.

[TheBlueMagician]

"We're not taking the Mastery Away, we're just making you re-earn it."

 

So. You're taking it away. You're nullifying its existence.

 

This thread is so bassackwards.

 

"I can't get the Mastery, so no one should."

 

pls no

[DiabolusUrsus]

Yes, you have my complete support. The fact that you're not taking the points away - only turning them into a temporary, static debt is the icing on the cake. If Mastery Rank is going to continue to place more significant limits on players, we need to have a level playing field in terms of who can reach what.

However, allow me to make an alternate suggestion as well: Lower the number of points required to attain full mastery rank. I think it's ridiculous that DE has a definitive cap on mastery (30, for those of you that don't know...) and yet haven't released nearly enough content to actually reach that rank. I get that this game isn't technically in full release yet, but the ambiguity of mastery rank is causing a number of problems.

First, players are trying to use mastery as some sort of reliable gauge for mastery balance. "X weapon is okay because it is Mastery Rank Y," when Y is in fact less than half of what will eventually be possible.

 

Second, it means that for players who care about mastery rank, they have to level each and every weapon and each and every Warframe in existence, even if they absolutely loathe using it. That's not fun, and the problem will take a while to resolve itself even after DE makes Mastery 30 attainable.

 

Third, it's going to really F*** up the Focus system when it is released, unless Focus isn't released until after Mastery 30 is possible. If new Focus possibilities are going to be unlocked through higher mastery, how can DE hope to possibly test Rank 30 Focus perks through the community? We've all seen what makes its way through any internal testing they do.

 

It's just an arbitrary number, so making it a little bit easier to obtain lowers the grind required to get there, opens up the possibility of multiple weapon and Warframe paths to get there, and allows for newer content to be more effectively based around a Mastery-restricted categorization system. Nobody has their points taken away. The issue of access to Focus content is resolved. Did I miss anything?

[VegetableBasket]

"We're not taking the Mastery Away, we're just making you re-earn it."

 

So. You're taking it away. You're nullifying its existence.

 

This thread is so bassackwards.

 

"I can't get the Mastery, so no one should."

 

pls no

I'm saying that because you wouldn't get moved from rank 14 to 13 or whatever if those exclusives happened to make up the difference. Yes you would have less mastery in the long term, but you wouldn't instantaneously lose it.

I have every item in the game maxed out besides the lato prime. I'm bringing this up because I'm concerned about new players who are weaker not because they don't have skill or haven't played a lot, but because they joined six months ago instead of nine months ago. It's silly and I don't see it happen in other games.

It's fine if you wouldn't want to do it, but don't make this some kind of ad hominem thing, it's not something that affects me and I specifically stated that in my OP.

[[DE]Momaw]

There is no doubt that veteran players have an advantage over newer players.

(...)

The new focus system will be based on mastery level which means without a certain amount of exclusives, you will not be able to reach a certain tier of your focus tree.

 

 

I am not sure why so many people seem to think that veterans shouldn't have advantages over new players.  I mean, it's a game built around advancement like almost every MMOG these days. Veterans spend more time in the game, they get more opportunities to advance.  I apparently did not get the memo where this is a bad thing.  I don't go to other game forums and complain about not getting the same opportunities that other people who have been there for three years have been privy to.

 

On the subject of mastery level and player power, I would like to remind you that the current high-mastery players are level 15 and 16, but DE doesn't make anything that actually requires this. Their shiny new katana that everybody was begging for came in "low level" and "high level" flavors, and the "high" level one is only MR8 which is much less than half of the current hypothetical level cap.   So I wouldn't stress out much about low mastery players being second class citizens. DE knows where their players are and what makes sense in terms of attainability more than we do.

 

I'd also like to remind you that literally 90% of everything that gives mastery is not exclusive, and that mastery ranks increase in a non-linear fashion.... In practical terms this means that uber-veterans who have absolutely everything are only going to be 1 mastery level at best ahead of the ceiling which newer players can reach.

Edited May 6, 2014 by Momaw

[PsychedelicSnake]

I wouldn't care either way.

[reltats]

-snip-

 

The part where your taking away a minor reward from long term players. that mastery experience not even 1/10th of mastery rank 13 to 14. Oh noz so OP, must nerf

Edited May 6, 2014 by reltats

[Wahooo]

I would say yes only because I don't like the current mastery system.

That said I think the current mastery system being tedious, but only important for anything up to MR8 for weapons and MR10 for extractors and trades, then it just doesn't matter if there are items out there that some people got mastery from that players no cannot.  It doesn't matter at all, so why care?

[DiabolusUrsus]

The part where your taking away a minor reward from long term players. that mastery experience not even 1/10th of mastery rank 13 to 14. Oh noz so OP, must nerf

 

So, did it take you 20 seconds to completely ignore everything I actually said, or did it take you a whole 30? I'm talking about things that involve more than mere exclusives, and a large part of my focus here is improving freedom of choice. If it's really as insignificant of a change as you're making it out to be, why do you care one way or another?

We still have our shiny exclusives, so I don't think that we're really killing the whole point of the "reward."

 

Furthermore, it may only be less than 10% of the distance between Mastery 13 and 14, but there are currently... at least 39,000 points of mastery available from exclusive items. (More, if I managed to forget any.) That's actually over 60% of the total points required for reaching Mastery 14 from 13, and 1,560% of the points necessary for reaching rank 1. Considering this thread is supposed to be taking new players into consideration, I'd say that's a pretty significant difference.

Edited May 6, 2014 by DiabolusUrsus

[VegetableBasket]

I am not sure why so many people seem to think that veterans shouldn't have advantages over new players.  I mean, it's a game built around advancement like almost every MMOG these days. Veterans spend more time in the game, they get more opportunities to advance.  I apparently did not get the memo where this is a bad thing.  I don't go to other game forums and complain about not getting the same opportunities that other people who have been there for three years have been privy to.

 

On the subject of mastery level and player power, I would like to remind you that the current high-mastery players are level 15 and 16, but DE doesn't make anything that actually requires this. Their shiny new katana that everybody was begging for came in "low level" and "high level" flavors, and the "high" level one is only MR8 which is much less than half of the current hypothetical level cap.   So I wouldn't stress out much about low mastery players being second class citizens. DE knows where their players are and what makes sense in terms of attainability more than we do.

 

I'd also like to remind you that literally 90% of everything that gives mastery is not exclusive, and that mastery ranks increase in a non-linear fashion.... In practical terms this means that uber-veterans who have absolutely everything are only going to be 1 mastery level at best ahead of the ceiling which newer players can reach.

I am talking about someone who starts playing six months ago and puts in 1,000 hours not being able to get to the same level as me because they weren't online a few weekends and didn't get a closed beta key. If they start a week from now their statless vanguard rhino will be worse than mine because they found out about the game later, no matter how good they get at the game or how many hours they spend playing it. It's not them missing out on a cosmetic or a double XP weekend, it's a permanent power gap.

It is true that the gap will likely stay at one mastery rank at a given time, at the most, and that's fair enough. The point that nothing requires rank 16 is null because focus will create power for each mastery rank earned.

 

 

I would say yes only because I don't like the current mastery system.

That said I think the current mastery system being tedious, but only important for anything up to MR8 for weapons and MR10 for extractors and trades, then it just doesn't matter if there are items out there that some people got mastery from that players no cannot.  It doesn't matter at all, so why care?

Because the focus system will be dependent on mastery and players with lower mastery will not be as powerful as players with higher mastery. There will be a fair amount of players who are being held back on the basis of not having a certain amount of exclusive weapons.

Edited May 6, 2014 by VegetableBasket

[Dtexas]

There are so many weapons and warframes available in the game now that this does. not. matter.

 

The current weapons and warframe that is unavailable hardly contribute to the overall mastery. So someone is ahead of you by a little bit, big deal. And it wont make a difference with the focus system either. It isnt even in the game yet so that argument doesn't count. You  cant say mastery will have a big effect with focus when focus does not currently exist.

 

No one is for sure on how the Focus system will work, we only know what DE has said, which can change at any moment because this is beta afterall.

 

It should be left as is until proven otherwise.

[reltats]

So, did it take you 20 seconds to completely ignore everything I actually said, or did it take you a whole 30? I'm talking about things that involve more than mere exclusives, and a large part of my focus here is improving freedom of choice. If it's really as insignificant of a change as you're making it out to be, why do you care one way or another?

We still have our shiny exclusives, so I don't think that we're really killing the whole point of the "reward."

 

I got ninja'd

 

There are so many weapons and warframes available in the game now that this does. not. matter.

 

The current weapons and warframe that is unavailable hardly contribute to the overall mastery. So someone is ahead of you by a little bit, big deal. And it wont make a difference with the focus system either. It isnt even in the game yet so that argument doesn't count. You  cant say mastery will have a big effect with focus when focus does not currently exist.

 

No one is for sure on how the Focus system will work, we only know what DE has said, which can change at any moment because this is beta afterall.

 

It should be left as is until proven otherwise.

 

Plus who cares if veterans have a higher number on their profile? The reason I hate this so much is that I do hate the current mastery system, and the idea of having to re-earn any exp is just dreadful

Edited May 6, 2014 by reltats

[VegetableBasket]

There are so many weapons and warframes available in the game now that this does. not. matter.

 

The current weapons and warframe that is unavailable hardly contribute to the overall mastery. So someone is ahead of you by a little bit, big deal. And it wont make a difference with the focus system either. It isnt even in the game yet so that argument doesn't count. You  cant say mastery will have a big effect with focus when focus does not currently exist.

 

No one is for sure on how the Focus system will work, we only know what DE has said, which can change at any moment because this is beta afterall.

 

It should be left as is until proven otherwise.

Dude come on. DE has already said how it will work. I will bet you $100 I can find you the clip if Steve explaining it if you really don't believe me. There will probably be little tweaks to the system but we have enough information to talk about it. It's coming in U14 so I would hope they have it pretty down pat by now.

Edited May 6, 2014 by VegetableBasket

[egregiousRac]

It is true that for right now you do need exclusives to reach 16, but that won't be true for long. How long after that before 17 is possible? I expect it will be quite a while.

[reltats]

Dude come on. DE has already said how it will work. I will bet you $100 I can find you the clip if Steve explaining it if you really don't believe me.

 

All they said is it will be affected by mastery rank, They never said how much or how far

[[DE]Momaw]

 

(1) It's not them missing out on a cosmetic or a double XP weekend, it's a permanent power gap.

(2) The point that nothing requires rank 16 is null because focus will create power for each mastery rank earned.

 

(1) A permanent power gap, in a game which already demonstrably has power creep.  Do you really desperately need a Snipetron Vandal when you can get a Lanka or Vectis?  Do you really think that not having a Strun Wraith is going to matter to people who can freely acquire the Drakgoon or Boar Prime? Again: DE knows what their audience likes, and something that veterans like is having upgrades and new options.  People want new and shiny things to acquire, and the developers happily provide such things.

 

 

(2)

a. You are complaining about a system which we know NOTHING about.

 

b. The current hypothetical difference between exclusive item level cap and non-exclusive level cap is 1 mastery rank.  Or, 1/16th of the total potential of the Focus system if we assume (baselessly and recklessly) that Focus will scale linearly.  In the future when even more non-exclusive items become available, the difference will become fractional i.e. inconsequential.

[DarthRevan84]

Quick question to the community, please answer it assuming changes are made to the game in this way:

1. Anything you can't get by playing the game right now would not give mastery XP

2. Any mastery XP you've earned would not be taken away from you, but you would have to earn an equal amount of mastery before your XP bar would increase again

(example)

You level 3 exclusive items, earning 9,000 mastery XP and leaving you at 27,000 master XP. A change is made removing mastery from exclusives, so you will have to earn 9,000 mastery XP before you gain mastery XP again, although you will stay at 27,000 mastery the entire time. Once you've earned 9,100 mastery you would be at 27,100 mastery, as if the item never gave mastery in the first place.

 

The reason I am asking:

There is no doubt that veteran players have an advantage over newer players. We have weapons, mods, and now helmets they can't have. The new focus system will be based on mastery level which means without a certain amount of exclusives, you will not be able to reach a certain tier of your focus tree. The power gap between new and old players will only increase as long as the amount of exclusives does given the planned implementation of focus. I think it's a balance issue worth considering, and I don't know if the rest of the community would be willing to give up its exclusive mastery points for the sake of a level playing field. I also think the feeling of never being able to reach the level cap is very discouraging to newer players.

My personal answer is yes. Even though I am only missing one weapon and the power disparity would not affect me negatively.

Question in exchange for this change...Can we have your account perma banned? If so then Yes i agree.

[kaboomonme]

I guess I would be fine with it.