Damage 2.0's "combined Elements" Setup Is Broken And Makes No Sense (Solutions Included)

[Aktriaz]

Just as a quick note, I'm not just going to bash on everything saying "this sucks, and so does this", rather, I'm going to try to explain how it doesn't make sense and suggest how it could be fixed to make sense logically and mechanically.

 

To kick off, I'm going to split the Combined Elements into two sections based on their Procs: Primary and Secondary. Primaries are damage types with procs focused on a single faction (Magnetic, Corrosive, Gas). Secondaries are damage types with utility or non-focused procs (Viral, Radiation, Blast).

 

Now to go into detail of how they should be setup, based on the logic of their procs, and my speculation.

 

Primaries:

 

Magnetic

From what it's effect on Warframes and Shields tells me, it acts a lot like an EMP (Electromagnetic Pulse) in Sci-Fi, sapping energy and disabling electronics.

 

In game, Magnetic has +75% to both types of shields, -50% versus alloy, and nothing versus infested. If Magnetic damage was intended to be an EMP, than wouldn't that "-50%" make more sense on Infested, who have NO functional electronics on them? Grineer are partly robotic, so you'd think they would be hindered by it sapping their shooting arm, but for the sake of game mechanics, Grineer should have no modifiers to Magnetic, outside of armor.

 

Corrosive

Like Magnetic, Corrosive has a proc that only affects one of three factions (Void is technically not it's own faction, rather a mix of all three), though unlike Magnetic, it's primary effectiveness outside of Void is against Infested Ancients, who have no armor.

 

How Corrosive could make sense, is if it fails versus Shields, which (I assume) are space-magic-science energy fields that stop incoming projectiles, and because it's made of space-magic-science, Corrosive has nothing to Corrode. Infested would have no modifiers to Corrosive, and all Grineer armor would be weak to it, but with Alloy less so.

 

Gas

With it's current set up, I would change little to nothing about gas.

 

It takes minuses to People (Crewmen, Lancers, etc) who are usually smart enough to hold their breath when poisonous gas fills the room, and the Animal-like Infested, who cannot deny the instinct to breath. Plus, having AOE makes it a great choice versus the swarms of infested. This one is fine.

 

Secondaries:

 

Viral

Viral is well... Viruses. Sickness. Best versus those with weaker immune systems (low or no genetic diversity, i.e., Grineer), and bad versus those with stronger immune systems. (Infested, assimilating everyone into their globby masses in their missions, creating a genetic hive of some sort. *complete assumption*)

 

Grineer would be weak to this, and Corpus Crewman to, but less so. Infested would be fairly resistant, and Robotics and Machinery would very resistant, because Robots have no cells for the viruses to infect. Cough.exe is not installed.

 

Radiation

(Please forgive me, this is not an area in science that I excelled at. If you feel the need to correct me, please do) Radiation is energy emitted by well, Radioactive matter. Light itself is a type of radiation, and is stopped/reduced by dense matter. Radiation can also cause cancers of many kinds, hindering various functions of the body. The proc for radiation appears to be brain damage, making enemies go berserk, and have reduced accuracy.

 

Grineer armor would negate this the most, being the most dense of all the factions, while Corpus Shields may be debatable. I don't see Space-Magic-Science energy fields stopping visible light, so who's to say it would stop other radiation(s)? Personally, I would make it have the same effect Poison has, bypassing the shield completely. To balance it out, make Flesh slightly resistant to it, and infested and Robotics weak to it. Because Infested have regenerative abilities, the spread of tumors from the radiation-induced-cancer would be accelerated.

 

Blast

Blast is an explosion. (lolWHAAAAT???) To explain it in a scientifically stupid way, it's matter reacting with other matter that causes it to collide with other matter that collides with more and more until you've got a dance party of molecules.

 

A blast would effectively be all the physical damages put together. Impact from the force/shock wave of the explosion, Puncture from shrapnel(maybe, not all explosions have this), and Slash from colliding on the molecular level, breaking molecular bonds. Blast would be the "neutral" damage type, having no modifiers to any faction. Blast, like all damage, would be affected by armor.

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I don't necessarily want it to be exactly like this, (I know my judgement may not be that best) what I want is for it to be taken as feedback. An Idea to be expanded upon.

 

I can get that changing Damage 2.0 this late after it's release would set progress back A LOT on builds, and videos about builds, but when something is broken, better to fix it late, rather than not at all.

 

My biggest point is the poor misplaced Corrosive damage. If it's primary effectiveness (outside of void) isn't changed back to Grineer, the VERY least you could do is change what the Corrosive proc does, like a damage amplifier would be good (like +30% damage on target for 5 seconds) in my opinion.

 

I spent a good two-hours writing everything down and getting everything straight, so I can't say I'll be anything less than depressed if this falls under the radar.

 

I LOVE this game, and have +1300 hours on record. It makes me really sad when stuff like this falls under the radar, to make way for your Soma 2.0 (Boltor Prime) rather than fixing the neglected *Spectra. But my ranting aside, crossing my fingers, hoping for a response.

Edited May 9, 2014 by Actriaz

[VentiGlondi]

I don't see your point other than "It's not logical".

And logic is not something that we follow.

[Gelkor]

Idunno, as far as the radiation goes, I tend to think of it as being a depleted uranium round, which are mildly radioactive, but because of their state, and their density, they are incredibly good at anti-armor.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium

Edited May 10, 2014 by Gelkor

[Aktriaz]

I don't see your point other than "It's not logical".

And logic is not something that we follow.

Even if it isn't realistic logic, it still is a form of logic. Logic is merely a form of reasoning, a way to explain something. Considering the Combined Elements are mostly derived from real-world things, I will assume they will follow the same rules, to an extent.

 

Logic isn't necessarily true, it is just a way to explain something in a way that can be commonly understood.

[Aktriaz]

Idunno, as far as the radiation goes, I tend to think of it as being a depleted uranium round, which are mildly radioactive, but because of their state, and their density, they are incredibly good at anti-armor.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium

So far, the only weapon with innate radiation damage is the Detron. Sure, it makes sense on solid projectiles, though on the laser-thingies the Detron shoots, it doesn't make as much sense.

[Kamikiri]

You do make some very valid points, actually had me double check the weakness tables as I wrote this reply.

 

Viral works as you say, besides the robotics taking neutral damage from it, well besides the Grineer rollers, they follow the logic. Could this mean that corpus machinery may partially run on bio-tech? (As harvard has for example stored ~700TB of data in one gram of DNA, it's farfetched, but it could explain the viral neutrality...)

 

And yes you are quite correct on the radiation segment that it is caused by very high frequency waves, and the real danger of those waves is that they split matter on a subatomic level with ionization when they go far above ultraviolet. (Which not even the Tenno should be safe from when carrying the weapons on their bodies in their highly-flexible-suits-that-are-clearly-not-made-out-of-lead or denser materials)

I doubt that the Grineer would be able to carry armor that heavy to be able to properly protect themselves from it, and if the bullet made of these radiating materials lodges itself in their bodies they'd already be done for.

(And as Gelkor stated above, the density of some radioactive materials it should work wonders against anti-armor, especially since the density of uranium is greater than lead)

going on about radiation aswell is that it only has a positive effect on the alloy plated grineer, i.e. the grineer with a chemically bound material protecting them that could potentially be torn apart by the ionizing nature of radiation.

 

As for the Corpus blocking the radiation effect is also understandable, if their shields are made with the basis of the quantum physics light wave-particle duality then the waves could theoretically cancel eachother out, and what says they don't have emergency life support machines lodged into their bodies in case of a solar flare hitting the ship while cruising? while that would not protect them from the many different frequencies that radiation comes in, and their organs will still take considerable damage, and makes some sense in that it hurts the machines in the way that they could potentially cut circuits, but it'd make more sense that it'd be uranium in that case.

And infested on the same matter.. I don't know what to say.. they've already mutated so much that radiation has to be one of the factors as to why they have random growths in certain areas of their bodies where they shouldn't have if the host was still alive.

 

Having Blast as a basic element just sounds wrong to me, the rounds do not automatically explode, while some weapons fire flat rounds and others fire sharper rounds and sparks fly as the hard materials collide, having them automatically explode on impact would only make sense for the slash damage I think, while it'd make no sense att all for them to blow up when you shoot corpus or infested flesh.

Additionally cold and heat actually makes total sense to have as the blast combo, as heating up rock walls to quickly cool them down was the old way to "blow a hole" into mountains when creating man made caves before explosives came around, what could replace that?

 

As for magnetic damage on Grineer, have you ever watched a flat metallic or plastic object fall freely through a tube with a spool wired around it with an electrical current flowing thruogh the spool? it moves much slower because of the magnetic forces.

I am quite uncertain as to how great of an effect this should have on Grineer overall, but saying that the bullets would be slowed down when passing through their plating would not be a lie.

 

As for corrosive, I think it somewhat fits in the way that it affects ferrite plated Grineer the most, or should I say ferrum (i.e. Iron), while I do not understand how it doesn't affect the other types at all besides the proc doing it's job so that's a real headscratcher I'd say, it does however grant a huge damage boost against the corroded target if it is a heavily armored unit. (Which is why I primarily run it against grineer despite popular opinion)

 

        - Phew this response sure took me a while to write, and I too am open to scrutiny as this is after all only a response from a person that is not an authority in any of these matters.

[fatpig84]

You know magnetic used to deal 75% less damage against all living things including flesh and infest, so if you want elements with crippling modifiers, get the F**K out.

 

 

This is a game, not a real world simulator.

Also tweaking element have a much greater impact than their effects on guns. Because many frame skills are element specific.

 

Change magnetic and you pretty much make Mag useless across the board.

Change radiation and oberon becomes even more lack luster as his reckoning and hallowed ground uses radiation.

 

 

 

DE did that change by using logic before. And it lasted less than 2 days, as it completely broken plenty of frames out of the box.

 

For example Viral did like 75% less damage against Infested, toxin was also affected (-50%), this out right murdered Saryn. Killing her completely out of infested games. Then it gets better as she gets negative modifiers against robots as well, so she was made much weaker against Corpus and Void.

 

Mag had a -75% modifier against everything that was living, this made the starter frame USELESS because her pull can't even off a level 5 grineer in Mercury.

 

Ironically the only frames that were not severely affected were people like Excal, because they don't rely on composite elements and use IPS instead.

 

 

That is why DE opt for balance instead after the sh1t storm.

Edited May 10, 2014 by fatpig84

[Rekkou]

People only bring real life logic into argument when it's going for their advantage.

 

But the simple truth is, it's a game. Logic means little, DE can easily change the element's name or even make up some fictional elements to fill in.

[VoidWraith]

While it's nice you have real world logic (general/specific understanding of how these things work in the real-world), this is a game. So real-world logic would not always/necessarily apply. Which is why there are in-game logics. Reasonings/understanding that was programmed/developed by the game programmers/developers.

 

While yes we try to use our real-world logic to understand the game, logic is as you said, an understanding/explaination of how/why things work the way they do. We use human understanding logic of what we have learned in-game. The rules of the game. Either to be accepted or debated with the game programmer/developer.

 

Your suggested changes SOUNDS nice, but I can't really see it improving helping the game THAT much. It could work though, assuming that DE would take time to actually redo the damage tables and damage 2.0 (would probably 2.5 or 3.0) and rework alot of the weapons and warframes.

[Aktriaz]

You know magnetic used to deal 75% less damage against all living things including flesh and infest, so if you want elements with crippling modifiers, get the F**K out.

 

 

This is a game, not a real world simulator.

Also tweaking element have a much greater impact than their effects on guns. Because many frame skills are element specific.

 

Change magnetic and you pretty much make Mag useless across the board.

Change radiation and oberon becomes even more lack luster as he reckoning and hallowed ground uses radiation.

 

 

DE did that change before and it completely broken plenty of frames out of the box.

That is why they opt for balance instead.

First off, a simple change to Mag would not "cripple" her. What I suggested is make Magnetic bad for Infested, okay on Grineer, and best for Corpus. Infested bosses have no shields unlike Grineer, so I thought this made more sense.

 

Don't you think "real life simulator" is a bit of a exaggeration? This game's universe is still based on ours, and follows it's basic rules (as much as a video game can), so if something is a reference to real life, you should assume it would be what it is referencing, unless stated otherwise.

 

For Oberon, similar to Mag, in on that he will still be good versus at least one faction (In my suggestion, radiation penetrates shields and does more damage vs infested and robotics).

 

Did you even read the entire post??

[Aktriaz]

People only bring real life logic into argument when it's going for their advantage.

 

But the simple truth is, it's a game. Logic means little, DE can easily change the element's name or even make up some fictional elements to fill in.

 

While it's nice you have real world logic (general/specific understanding of how these things work in the real-world), this is a game. So real-world logic would not always/necessarily apply. Which is why there are in-game logics. Reasonings/understanding that was programmed/developed by the game programmers/developers.

 

While yes we try to use our real-world logic to understand the game, logic is as you said, an understanding/explaination of how/why things work the way they do. We use human understanding logic of what we have learned in-game. The rules of the game. Either to be accepted or debated with the game programmer/developer.

 

Your suggested changes SOUNDS nice, but I can't really see it improving helping the game THAT much. It could work though, assuming that DE would take time to actually redo the damage tables and damage 2.0 (would probably 2.5 or 3.0) and rework alot of the weapons and warframes.

You misunderstand what Logic means. Logic is a systematic way of explaining something that can be understood and backed up, and doesn't have to be correct entirely.

 

Like it or not, this game has logic. It's unavoidable. Magnetic's proc reduces shields by 75%, therefore, it should innately be effective versus shields. That right there is a big-old-hunk o' logic. My main point is Corrosive, being more effective versus Infested rather than Grineer, going against it's proc of -25% armor (which infested have none of).

[Wahooo]

Even if it isn't realistic logic, it still is a form of logic. Logic is merely a form of reasoning, a way to explain something. Considering the Combined Elements are mostly derived from real-world things, I will assume they will follow the same rules, to an extent.

 

Logic isn't necessarily true, it is just a way to explain something in a way that can be commonly understood.

Rock-Paper-Scissors

 

You accept that paper beats rock for the sake of the game's function, despite that fact that how does paper do anything to a rock?

[Rekkou]

You misunderstand what Logic means. Logic is a systematic way of explaining something that can be understood and backed up, and doesn't have to be correct entirely.

 

Like it or not, this game has logic. It's unavoidable. Magnetic's proc reduces shields by 75%, therefore, it should innately be effective versus shields. That right there is a big-old-hunk o' logic. My main point is Corrosive, being more effective versus Infested rather than Grineer, going against it's proc of -25% armor (which infested have none of).

 

And again it means little, the elements you see aren't chosen for what they are. They simply a term deemed fitting for purpose the developer want to reach in game. You pick element first then try to work on it to fit, developers works the other way around.

[Aktriaz]

Rock-Paper-Scissors

 

You accept that paper beats rock for the sake of the game's function, despite that fact that how does paper do anything to a rock?

My Problem is, everything in Rock-Paper-Scissors functions on even ground in the game, so I have no argument with its function. Also, Rock-Paper-Scissors does not exist in the same universe as us, nor does it follow our paramount rules. In the Universe of Rock-Paper-Scissors, the only laws are rock beats scissors, scissors beats paper, and paper beats rock. The case in warframe however, a damage type like Corrosive has a faction-specific proc, while not being the best for that faction, going against what Gas and Magnetic are.

 

You simplifying my point is not making you understand it better.

[Aktriaz]

And again it means little, the elements you see aren't chosen for what they are. They simply a term deemed fitting for purpose the developer want to reach in game. You pick element first then try to work on it to fit, developers works the other way around.

The Logic for not needing Logic is still Logic.

 

The devs needed a Damage type versus Armor, that had a proc and modifiers that fit the part. Corrosive was this in the early versions of Damage 2.0. As they expanded upon Damage 2.0, things were misplaced and this were put where they shouldn't have been, like Radiation becoming the primary anti-armor element, despite it having a faction-neutral proc, while Corrosive was thrown over to the enemies who have absolutely no armor.

 

The game is going against it's own logic, with a logic that makes less sense, but it still is logic.

 

Arguing the vacancy of logic still requires usage of logic, thus, creating logic... unless you want to say, "Because shut-up I'm right" but you're a decent human-being, right?

[fatpig84]

Corrosive is useful only against Fossilized infested because they are probably, you know hardened lumps of flesh.

It is useful against Ferrite because it corrodes iron based material.

 

It is also totally possible that alloy armor is made out of stuff that don't corrode easily.

It is like why acid might corrode iron easily but of zero use against composite armor with alloys.

 

Of course if going by full RL, corrosive will have extra bonuses against all fleshy targets.

Spill some Hydrochloric acid on your arm and it will eat away that flesh just as fast it dissolve a piece of iron.

But that means Corrosive will be good against both armor and flesh. 

 

Then does that invalidates the existence of say Viral ?

So where does balance lie ?

Edited May 10, 2014 by fatpig84

[Aktriaz]

Corrosive is useful only against Fossilized infested because they are probably, you know hardened lumps of flesh.

It is useful against Ferrite because it corrodes iron based material.

 

It is also totally possible that alloy armor is made out of stuff that don't corrode easily.

It is like why acid might corrode iron easily but of zero use against composite armor with alloys.

You make a great point, but it's not the issue I have.

 

My issue is that Corrosive's proc removes 25% of the targets armor, even though it is the prime choice versus infested, who have no armor. If the devs made it effective against Alloy and Ferrite, or simply changed what the proc does (like I said, something like "target take +30% damage for 5 seconds") would be alright with me. I'm okay if Corrosive being 100% anti-infested, just as long as the proc matches up.

 

The only reason I posted all the other stuff along with it, is because when and if corrosive is changed it will likely leave a gap that will cause a reassignment across the table, and this was my attempt at that.

[Rekkou]

The Logic for not needing Logic is still Logic.

 

The devs needed a Damage type versus Armor, that had a proc and modifiers that fit the part. Corrosive was this in the early versions of Damage 2.0. As they expanded upon Damage 2.0, things were misplaced and this were put where they shouldn't have been, like Radiation becoming the primary anti-armor element, despite it having a faction-neutral proc, while Corrosive was thrown over to the enemies who have absolutely no armor.

 

The game is going against it's own logic, with a logic that makes less sense, but it still is logic.

 

Arguing the vacancy of logic still requires usage of logic, thus, creating logic... unless you want to say, "Because shut-up I'm right" but you're a decent human-being, right?

 

The last words you said ironically describe your whole arguments. You're trying to force your own logic and opinion, while what i'm trying to say is simply "they won't care"

[Eirshy]

Changing the Corrosive proc off of an armor reduction to a damage buff is a bad idea, as it would *massively* nerf it against the enemies you actually need that kind of proc for. However, part of this problem stems from the fact that Damage 2.0 didn't actually fix the reason for Damage 2.0 being needed in the first place: Armor Scaling is still a thing. On something with 90% DR (2700 armor score in the current system), -25% armor lowers their DR to 87.1%, comparatively the +30% damage vs that would effectively decrease their DR to 87.3%. When you're looking at the situations where that amp would be *needed*, you're looking at super high-scaling situations, and in those situations the armor reduction has a higher return.

 

 

 

Magnetic vs Alloy not being super effective makes some sense, not all metals are magnetic and it could just be a non-magnetic alloy. This could also provide resitstance to corrosive elements, and might potentially break down when subjected to radiation.

 

 

As for Radiation vs Robotic, someone's clearly never heard of Cosmic Rays lol

[VoidWraith]

You misunderstand what Logic means. Logic is a systematic way of explaining something that can be understood and backed up, and doesn't have to be correct entirely.

 

Like it or not, this game has logic. It's unavoidable. Magnetic's proc reduces shields by 75%, therefore, it should innately be effective versus shields. That right there is a big-old-hunk o' logic. My main point is Corrosive, being more effective versus Infested rather than Grineer, going against it's proc of -25% armor (which infested have none of).

 

I'm pretty sure it means the same. Logic to me is basically your understanding of something.

But yeah, it is as you said:

 

 

Logic is a systematic way of explaining something that can be understood and backed up, and doesn't have to be correct entirely.

 

Now for this:

 

 

Corrosive, being more effective versus Infested rather than Grineer, going against it's proc of -25% armor (which infested have none of).

I don't know. I always thought corrosive was good against armor types. I think it should actually be good on robotics too, since they're covered in a type of metallic plating. Anyway for some infested, some of them have "fossilized" armor. I guess that's like infested armored units. Like the ancients (disruptor, healer, toxic). They have fossilized armor. I guess If I was to explain, the infestation has mutated that it's like an organic metal?

Edited May 10, 2014 by VoidWraith

[Wahooo]

 

 

You simplifying my point is not making you understand it better.

I understand your point.  I also understand making the system overly complicated doesn't make it better, and using your opinions of the terms DE chose for the different damage types and resistances doesn't make them not make sense.

I was hoping simplifying the point might help you understand the game as it is.

 

Forget about the names as they are.  Think about the base 4 as just A-B-C-D and the combined 6 AB-AC-AD-BC-BD-CD, and 12 types of resistance as 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12.

 

You are saying that because by your logic AC affects 4 it should also affect 5,6 and 7 and that BD by its name should have a more global effect.

 

The names are there because they needed to call them something.  Regardless of the names the damage types and resistances needed to be balanced in a Rock-Paper-Scissors method.  For the sake of game play a universal damage type was what damage 2.0 was supposed to get away from, and for the most part it has done that.