Why Trinity Nerf?

[Guest Shibboleet]

Recently, since the last livestream, I've seen plenty of new threads created about how Trinity's abilities should, or should not be, changed. My clan, Tenn Os, has been theorycrafting frame compositions for the last six or seven months and then we decided to take a look at using Trinity. It started off by using her as an infinite mana well with Energy Vampire as she scaled ridiculously well with mods, and even more with the corrupt mods. After winning records against all of the factions we started to check out the other side of Trinity's powers: Complete invulnerability.

Having a Trinity for survival as an immune granter trivialized the content, but there was still that two second window of death. Luckily our squad-mate had received a Natural Talent from when transmute was bugged, so we didn't have to worry about this as much. Even with the much lesser window there was still a chance at failure. An idea had occurred to use two Trinities; Each to cover the gap. So with this in mind, our new set-up was: Trinity/Trinity/Nekros/???. We decided to fight a Corpus survival since Mag has plenty of damage with her ability: Shield Polarize.*

This is the results of that idea:

7 hour survival

They could have gone forever, but the event had started and made them leave prematurely so that we could grind to the top of the leaderboards. Later on, we wanted to do the same on a Grineer map. This time we ran into a damage problem. Against the Grineer, there is no frame to kill them fast enough to go an infinite duration; At least not as powerful as the infinitely scaling Mag. The idea was going to be two-fold: Both Blessing Trinities use the stug, and a third Trinity, but EV specced to keep the Nekros topped off.

It was easy as shooting the ground and pressing 3 and 4 every so often, because it was exactly that. After the first two hours the stug was doing noticeably less damage and the EV Trinity was catching up to us in kills per second. Luckily we noticed something. As either Buri or I went out to collect oxygen, Phoo was wondering how they were dying so quickly again. As we found out in that mission, as Grineer level, they start to do more damage than their health.** Link is the other culprit in the mix. Suicide blowing yourself up is nowhere near the scalability that this ability has when combined with Blessing.*** We ran into an issue three and a half hours into our Survival run. The enemies scaled out in level. Sadly no video here =(

As for the final test of Mag's output and a salute to Trinity before she changes, we did a 3.5 hour run in t3 survival.

Video won't load in my browser on these forums...

Summary of why she is strong:

Infinite damage with Link

Suicide damage not suicide, but transferred 100% with link with longer range than most frames; even with narrowminded

Blessing too long and can be overlapped by another Trinity, thus making your team 100% immune.****

In a conclusion I would like to say that in the opinion of Tenn Os, Trinity needs to change. In my own opinion she has become a developer frame on accident*****. Ideas that I have off the top of my head as a band-aid fix would be to make link not redirect damage while immune, range limit on blessing, and less scaling on EV or change the mechanic on EV.

*I think this should be her #4 instead of crush due to its power, or remove the damage entirely, but that's another can of worms.

**Only tested on Grineer. Corrosive Projection makes this possible. The shields on Corpus scale up way higher than any number I can think of to make this possible, and we don't talk about infested.

***And no, I don't think anyone attempting my contest can use this advice to win. They scale up around wave 85, but not enough to kill themselves =) (well, maybe?)

**** Don't give me the 'but disrupters =O', 1. Infested are easy. 2. All frames are affected by disruption...this doesn't make her weaker. 3. Bad playing if you get disrupted.

*****A frame to be used by developers when making content. Abilities are usually invulnerability and wacky scaling for tests.

--They have since changed survival to not scale out easily, but to go up around 18 levels every few minutes.

---Outer Term defense will scale out in only ~600 waves

Edited May 12, 2014 by Shibboleet

[kaboomonme]

The 7 hour war could have been won...

Overall, nice experiments. Your contributions to Science is greatly appreciated.

Edited May 12, 2014 by kaboomonme

[Drunken_Child]

some people like a challenge, that'shard when your in a squad with a trinity.

[taiiat]

i'm glad that after reading all of this, the conclusion didn't say 'but you can still die once in a while so it is balanced'.

 

i would have flipped two tables.

[Guest Shibboleet]

i'm glad that after reading all of this, the conclusion didn't say 'but you can still die once in a while so it is balanced'.

 

i would have flipped two tables.

With Trinity how she is, the greatest enemy in end game is two-fold:

Steady frame drop (Still unfixed after months), and getting distracted. One day I'll upload one of our conversations.

Edited May 12, 2014 by Shibboleet

[taiiat]

Steady frame drop

which is very interesting. the past few days i've been playing Metro: Last Light again - and it's apalling that in Last Light i can average 60-120FPS but usually in the high 80's area, while Warframe is 20-150, but usually in the 40's area.

 

i can even walk into a room packed full of Soldiers in Last Light, and throw a bunch of Incendiary Grenades and spray everything with a Flamethrower, and my framerate is basically solid 45, despite all of the Dynamic lighting being processed.

 

 

that being said, Last Light ACTUALLY UTILIZES GPU, therefore it can actually get good stable performance.

since Warframe doesn't, it's performance is really unstable, all over the place.

 

 

Digital Extremes pls - GPU's were invented for a reason, because CPU's are garbage for processing a Video Game. they make for unreliable performance due to their severe lack of multi-tasking, which Video Games have unprecedented amounts of.

[HansJurgen]

The only thing I got from this video is that once Trinity is nerfed, people will find something else to complain about. Also, people have time and enjoy playing a dull, by the numbers, hallway shooter for over 7 hours straight.

 

Regardless, I pose a simple question: how to make Warframe exciting and fresh, instead of the shallow kill the same mobs over and over again bore which it currently is?

[Guest Shibboleet]

The only thing I got from this video is that once Trinity is nerfed, people will find something else to complain about. Also, people have time and enjoy playing a dull, by the numbers, hallway shooter for over 7 hours straight.

 

Regardless, I pose a simple question: how to make Warframe exciting and fresh, instead of the shallow kill the same mobs over and over again bore which it currently is?

Video was an example to solidify the overall argument presented. Unlike other posts that complain in 3 sentences or don't use anything to backup their side, this post decided to elaborate as to exactly why it needs changing.

[Arblarg]

"We set the record! QUICK! Get to the forums and complain so nobody can beat us!"

This whole thing simply seems to me like its trying to viral or to show off, but whatever.

 

In the current state, the only changes trinity needs is a range on blessing and no redirection of self damage with link. When there is actual end game content that is a dextrous challenge and not a statistical challenge, then we can discuss balance. People that use trinity outside of endless survival are the only reason anybody ever complains about trinity. The actual skill curve of this game falls off at about rank 5 mastery, so the whole 'makes content trivial' thing is just a load of crock blurted out by people who have finally realized this entire game is nothing but a grind after the first 50 hours.

 

Find something better to make threads about or go back and enjoy the game (or a different game that may actually require skill to play).

[Guest Shibboleet]

"We set the record! QUICK! Get to the forums and complain so nobody can beat us!"

This whole thing simply seems to me like its trying to viral or to show off, but whatever.

 

In the current state, the only changes trinity needs is a range on blessing and no redirection of self damage with link. When there is actual end game content that is a dextrous challenge and not a statistical challenge, then we can discuss balance. People that use trinity outside of endless survival are the only reason anybody ever complains about trinity. The actual skill curve of this game falls off at about rank 5 mastery, so the whole 'makes content trivial' thing is just a load of crock blurted out by people who have finally realized this entire game is nothing but a grind after the first 50 hours.

 

Find something better to make threads about or go back and enjoy the game (or a different game that may actually require skill to play).

My intentions of this post were not to 'show-off', but rather to provide solid proof of concept. This first post allows me to say things like: "Trinity in her current state trivializes the game".

 

As for balance I do mention the link redirection on immunity as a band-aid fix, but she needs a total rework. As for the changes announced today, EV Trinity will be the best Trinity to have on a team. I do like the change to blessing being reactive, but not sure how this is going to play out in game. Perfect immunity does make content trivial in any game, especially when survival is meant to be a challenge in how long your team can stay without dying.

 

A lot of people are making threads about Trinity. This is one of the few that supports an overhaul.

[Arblarg]

My intentions of this post were not to 'show-off', but rather to provide solid proof of concept. This first post allows me to say things like: "Trinity in her current state trivializes the game".

The game in its current state past mastery rank 5 trivializes the game. I'm sincerely sorry that you've come to this forum to express that somehow this game is ever a challenge and is something more than a trivial grinding simulator. But as I've already said, now is not the time to discuss balance, as so far there is no required amount of skill to play this game in any aspect of its existence.

 

Priority #1 for DE should be fixing bugs and getting the game out of "beta" (or stop calling it "beta", because its not in it anymore). If they are adding more content than fixes, then this game is not beta.

Priority #2 should be to add content that doesn't enforce more grinding than Miley Cyrus on beetlejuice at an award ceremony. Some actual skill based gameplay would be really really nice for this game.

Priority #3 should be 'balance' and dealing with adding content. Though they should certainly put balance ahead in priority over content, as leaving a mess to get bigger only to 'fix' it later has not been show to work very well for DE.

[Griefel]

Here's a thought, limit Blessing's duration not it's range - halve it, the extra energy upkeep needed will make it more difficult to keep it up forever, this will give a challenge for people thinking immortal is too easy, and a challenge to min maxers who still want to feel like the gods warframe lore says you are supposed to be. 

And radically change well of life as either an instant heal - and remove this from blessing or heal on mob's death.

 

It's crappy if they make this frame from hero into zero, like they plan to do atm.

[DoomFruit]

Or just stop Link triggering on self-damage. That will immediately halt all the Penta/Castana/Stug/Ogris(?) suicide spam.

[Guest Shibboleet]

If they instead limit the duration it wouldn't fix much. Energy plates + the EV buff (why?) will make it so energy is never an issue again.

[Thaumatos]

With Trinity how she is, the greatest enemy in end game is two-fold:

Steady frame drop (Still unfixed after months), and getting distracted. One day I'll upload one of our conversations.

Frame rate decrease is everyone's problem.

 

Getting distracted is a player problem.  Fix that by playing better.

 

L2P is appropriate here.

[Thaumatos]

want to feel like the gods warframe lore says you are supposed to be. 

 

 

Warframe lore says nothing about godhood.  "Warriors of blade and gun" does not translate to "God".  Sorry.

[Vargras]

Getting distracted is a player problem.  Fix that by playing better.

 

L2P is appropriate here.

You try playing a map for 7+ hours, pressing a single ability every once in a while, and see if it isn't boring.

[Thaumatos]

You try playing a map for 7+ hours, pressing a single ability every once in a while, and see if it isn't boring.

 

Still a L2P issue.

 

If you find 7+ hours to be boring, and you let your team lose because of it, its your fault for not playing well enough.

 

You fail at logic.

[Noble_Cactus]

Even the best fighting game players drop critical combos and lose in Grand Finals because they panic or they make an honest mistake. Doesn't make them any less of a top player for doing so.

 

Despite what you might think, Trinity does not stand in a vacuum and press 4 and 3 over and over. She still does have to keep track of where enemies are and where she's going to recast Blessing, which is what I think Shibboleet is saying. Having to do that over the course of seven hours is going to wear on anyone.

 

It's the player's "fault" for dropping the combo or pressing 4 at the wrong time that late into the game, but they definitely know what they're doing. When gameplay fatigue starts to set in, the chances of that are going to rise, and you just can't avoid that (unless you're on some kind of speeds or something, I guess). You can only mitigate the effects of that fatigue and learn to cope well under pressure, and it's often down to those crucial moments that determines who wins the match despite both players being the best at the game they play. Or in this case, the player pressing 4. 7 hours is a lot of room within which even the most concentrated players can make a small slip up or error.

Edited May 14, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[Thaumatos]

Even the best fighting game players drop critical combos and lose in Grand Finals because they panic or they make an honest mistake. Doesn't make them any less of a top player for doing so.

Going to assume this is directed at me....so let's analyze this.

 

 

Panic.

 

Grand Finals.

 

Critical Combos.

 

Trinity is none of this.  Trinity is 'press 4 for invuln and wait for timer to be up to press it again.  There's no combo.  There's no panic.  There's no grand competitive final that you're competing in.

 

Just. One. Button.

 

You fail.

[Noble_Cactus]

I don't think you understood my point. But considering how you're willing to call anyone who disagrees with you a failure, I don't think we're going to get across to you.

 

I added a second part explaining what I mean. I recommend reading it.

Edited May 14, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[Thaumatos]

I don't think you understood my point. But considering how you're willing to call anyone who disagrees with you a failure, I don't think we're going to get across to you.

 

I added a second part explaining what I mean. I recommend reading it.

And, i've read your amendment to what you've said based on what I've retorted with:

It's the player's "fault" for dropping the combo or pressing 4 at the wrong time that late into the game, but they definitely know what they're doing. When gameplay fatigue starts to set in, the chances of that are going to rise, and you just can't avoid that (unless you're on some kind of speeds or something, I guess). You can only mitigate the effects of that fatigue and learn to cope well under pressure, and it's often down to those crucial moments that determines who wins the match despite both players being the best at the game they play. Or in this case, the player pressing 4. 7 hours is a lot of room within which even the most concentrated players can make a small slip up or error.

 

 

Its the player's fault based on the fact that the player can't press 4 at the right time because s/he is tired.  Awesome.  How often do you miss your immunity recall?  How often do you reset your single-player game based on the fact that you didn't hit your cheat code at the right time?

 

None of this faults the system other than allowing the exploit to exist.  This is all the player's fault.  You didn't press the one button that would make you survive any and all things regardless of damage, proximity, skill, etc?  Then it's your fault.

 

That's the innate problem with invulnerability.  There's no skill involved.  There's no difference besides, "Oh well I was tired...so I didn't press it." ... Oh great.  So we're supposed to balance around tired players?  Absolutely not.

 

This is the most absurd argument ever devised.

Edited May 14, 2014 by Thaumatos

[Noble_Cactus]

I don't think Shibboleet said that we're balancing around tired players. What orifice did you pull that out of? I'm not arguing from that standpoint either, and instead we are saying that when a character does have a godmode, the "enemy" that could lead the mission to failure isn't the mobs (game content) but is actually 1. Framerate drops, and 2. Player inattentiveness. He is calling for a nerf or change to how Blessing works BECAUSE it trivializes game content.

 

If you're saying that Blessing needs to be changed because it grants full godmode immunity that can be chained between two players, I agree with you. If you're saying that Trinity operates in a vacuum and that the player controlling her is not prone to making an error because they got distracted over the course of seven hours, then you would be wrong. My original point was that just because a player isn't a robot, it doesn't mean that they need to L2P. Even good players make mistakes, whether it's in PvP or in PvE. It didn't have anything to do with whether Blessing should be reworked or not. Just that it isn't simply an issue of L2P when it comes to attaining "godhood."

Edited May 14, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[DeadlyFred]

Maybe they just need to redo her entirely because the whole Blessing/Link invulerkill everyone seems to be her only practical application.