[Trinity] Nu-Blessing Is Really Only Single Target Effective, Then Screws The Team.

[holyicon]

NOTE: I made this a separate topic because it raises a point I don't think people are yet aware of.

Link to my old post with a Complete Trinity Re-work HERE.

 

Trinity:

 

-Blessing:  Damage immunity is now based on the percentage of health healed (ie: healing 90% health will grant 90% immunity).  This should make the use of Blessing more reactive, greatly benefiting players that pay attention and monitor party health to maximize its effectiveness.

 

Trinity by design was never meant to have such an aggressive means of invincibility, and this fix should bring Blessing’s use back in line with our original intent.  Spamming it at full health will now have no benefit.

 

Consider this...

 

You're in a party with three other Tenno. One Tenno gets hurt, close to death (10% HP remaining), so you pop Blessing and that Tenno gets a "90% Immunity" buff for the next (Let's say) 15 Seconds.

 

If I'm reading this right. You and the other two Tenno get a 0% Immunity buff for 15 Seconds.

 

Now, we have to assume (since a change is not mentioned) that how Blessing's duration works the same as before.

Yes, she refers to "Spamming" but that is not conclusive evidence of change.

 

So you heal him at the expense of NOT being able to heal the other members for Blessing's duration. If you anticipate a player being in danger incorrectly (since Blessing still has a long enough cast time that you cannot "react" to damage with it.) you've just wasted 100en fixing incidental damage on one player and hung the rest of the team out.

Am I supposed to start casting it the moment anyone's shields hits 50%? Because that's usually too late, especially on light frames that die to a single rocket or grenade.

 

Hey, remember:

"OMG! Two Bombards!" -- "Casting Blessing, go get em'!"

Well goodbye to that tactic, now it's:

"OMG! Two Bombards" -- "Go get hurt some so I can have an excuse to use the skills on my Warframe that represents ¼th of this team rather than using a #4 Nuke."

 

Well at least the up-side is with Damage leaking through Blessing, Rage will get more use ... oh, and Rage being useful during blessing only means Energy Vampire is that much more redundant.
 

Look, I may just be one voice, but I'm using it: constructively. To that end I've proposed you make Blessing a Toggle-Ult like you are doing with Banshee, Nyx and Hydriod. You all seem "Toggle-happy" this patch anyways.

 

"Blessing"

Duration: Toggle.

Range: 15 / 30 / 45 / 60 meters. (Hey! Now Renewal is the infinite range heal.)

Cost: 5 / 10 / 15 / 25 Energy per second. (Not affected by Power Efficiency.)

Effect per second:
- Team has 20% / 40% / 60% / 80% health damage immunity for 1 second. (Does not affect Shields.)

- Team restores 5% / 10% / 15% / 20% health.

- Effects do not stack with Renewal or another Blessing.

 

Insane, frothing rant inside:

D.E. You are throwing out the Trinity with the Blessing Abuse! This is a gross over reaction. I don't think you've put the requisite thought into this tweak. I don't think you've discussed this enough internally to see all the angles. And there are FAR better ways to handle the abuse of a skill.

 

Fine, sure, it's a good enough fix I'll admit ... IF AND ONLY IF you can guarantee my party members will use voice chat and call out when they're in trouble, and make sure they're all in trouble at the same time! Because for the most part; the advancing edge of the party does not respect the rear. They strike out fractiously and frenetically: door-hero-ing, rushing, glory-bossing and the like.

 

Look, I'm not the guy that spams Blessing, I've always used it tactically. Just like I'd always used Energy Vampire. Well I got over that change, and welcome the upcoming tweak. But like back then I warned you that you misunderstood the problem and applied the wrong change. Same as now.

 

Unless you are accustomed to each member of the party taking gradual damage until each member is in need of a heal at the same time, then Blessing will most likely be only used when one member "" Appears™ "" to need assistance. If it was just a minor hit before they do anything foolish, guess what? There's NO invulnerability to back them up.

 

And how am I supposed to keep an eye on their health, anticipate the best time to pop Blessing (which btw will still take the same amount of time to cast, Natural Talent not withstanding), navigate the map and deal with the Grineer at the same time?  Players that fall, tend to fall FAST. I can't "react" to danger I'm not looking at while vaulting a rail. Any player that falls in the middle of a big room has just screwed the team.

 

Unless you're willing to make Low HP bars flash in U.I. 2.0. Then asking a Trinity to watch the HP bars AND do Tenno stuff is asking too much. THIS ISN'T A WORLD MMO WITH HOT-BARS AND HEROIC RAIDS. -50,000 DKP D.E.!

 

As always, have fun out there, be kind to each other, but equally mean to those that oppose the Tenno!
 - holyicon

Edited May 13, 2014 by holyicon

[Thaumatos]

 

"Blessing"

Cost: 25en/sec

Duration: Toggle.

Effect per Second:

- Team 20% / 40% / 60% / 80% Damage Immunity.

- Team 5% / 10% / 15% / 20%  Health Recovered

Note that this version of Blessing does not affect Shields.

 

 

 

As always, have fun out there, be kind to each other, but equally mean to those that oppose the Tenno!

 - holyicon

 

That skill only needs Intensify to bring it back to OP status.

 

The only thing I disagree with on the trin changes is how very mismanaged the base stats are.

 

HP is extremely low and very volatile in Warframe.  Actually landing a Blessing on a target with 10% HP left is nothing more than dumb luck.  The trigger was never the amount of health but a two-factor process, players were both taking damage and combat was not going to end in the near future.  That prompts Blessing.

 

Because of the immunity, people would preemptively use Blessing in order to prevent damage as combat began.

 

What's wrong with turning it into a damage shield like all the other full immunity nerfs you've handed out so far?

[Senketsu_]

oh why are you crying, dosnt that mean your good enough to not need blessing because you havent taken damage. In all other games with healers, their healing skill is usualy a single target ability, trinities blessing will effect all players that have taken damage to their health differently. deal with it.

[effinator]

It will just shift trinity into fleeting expertise/streamline spam over duration just so you could heal anyone on demand as often as you'd like. Also gives room for the damage approach so energy vamp gets huge

[BloodRhythm]

I understood that it could also work in a way that the damage reduction % is given to the whole team based on the highest amount healed.

 

Example: Player A has 50/100 health and B has 90/100 health. Cast blessing. Both players are healed and everyone will get the 50% damage reduction based on healing done to A since it was the highest amount healing done.

[(PSN)billy-d-squid]

Dumb post is dumb post, Blessing is aimed at the team. You clearly don't understand the OP's point so kindly don't bother posting again until you do.

 

 Bull, Blessing is God mode.

 

What the OP is proposing just results is Trinity pre empting any combat upon entering a room, popping Blessing and equipping Intensify to get a 90+% DR. Still results in effective invincibility, and you're back to square one. God mode. 

 

Current proposed changes are aimed at team management given lighter frames will be benefiting more from this than the likes of Rhino, Frost and Valkyr who can take damage in one way or another using Iron Skin, SG or Hysteria, have significant armour, HP or shields. 

 

Separate problems exist, namely that Well of Life and Energy Vampire still are largely irrelevant. EV has been improved, but WoL still get's trumped by Blessing even now. 

[holyicon]

It will just shift trinity into fleeting expertise/streamline spam over duration just so you could heal anyone on demand as often as you'd like. Also gives room for the damage approach so energy vamp gets huge

 

Well that wouldn't be the only thing I'd do to Trinity but you make a fair point given what I've posted.

At full Energy Efficiency it would be 6.25en/sec. Not that difficult to manage for an (and I use this term very loosely) "end game" frame.

It would either need a Hard-Capped minimum power usage, and/or some other balancing agent. Since I haven't had any feedback on the idea yet, it's still rather raw. Not that I assume you are, but if you've ever read my posts, I never unilaterally propose my ideas as infallible. I'm open to suggestions. I'm really just throwing out concerns backed up with suggestions of my own.

 

 

I understood that it could also work in a way that the damage reduction % is given to the whole team based on the highest amount healed.

 

Example: Player A has 50/100 health and B has 90/100 health. Cast blessing. Both players are healed and everyone will get the 50% damage reduction based on healing done to A since it was the highest amount healing done.

 

If it works that way, great, but the language used in the 'announcement' is too ambiguous for my taste.

 

 

 Bull, Blessing is God mode.

 

-snip-

 

Then perhaps you'd like to offer a suggestion that fixes the abuse of BASE Blessing without regard to extra mods?

Maybe, a suggestion that fixes Blessing without making it a hindrance?

 

I agree that god-mode has to go. But use some degree of caution with the hatchet you use to remove it.

[(PSN)billy-d-squid]

Then perhaps you'd like to offer a suggestion that fixes the abuse of BASE Blessing without regard to extra mods?

Maybe, a suggestion that fixes Blessing without making it a hindrance?

 

I agree that god-mode has to go. But use some degree of caution with the hatchet you use to remove it.

 

None, I'd like to see the changes they propose implemented, examine them and if there a problems/ issues go from there. 

 

For instance, by the look of it the current proposal by DE will not benefit from intensify, but will Blessing have an innate minimum DR? Maybe that could be a benefit, so it's at least some benefit to heavily armoured frames in a squad of lighter ones. 

 

I want to wait and see what exactly DE is proposing in detail, before I make any suggestions, it's encouraging what they've done, but there are unclear aspects that need explaining.

[Zkorp]

Ok, Trinity is now a trash frame. Well done DE. You really don't understand your own gameplay : you can't heal in your game because when you really take damage it's near the time to get one shot by everything and you can't react to heal a dead man...

It's not a classic MMO where your HPs are evolving and you'll keep, in warframe, forever, a tiny pool of HPs that will never scale with mobs damages.

With your design you'll be able (sometimes and with luck) to heal and BTW give more resistance to already solid frames (Valkyr, Rhino, frost...) but the frail frame will always be dead on the spot...

 

I speak here for the high level gameplay (level 60+ mobs) because on the normal starmap there was and there'll be no (real) need for a Trinity.

[-Upgreid-]

I think there should be immunity for a very very short time, say, 1/2/3/4 seconds, as well as immunity to knockdown, to save a team's a$$, but nowhere near long enough to spam. The reduction factor would be far more useful but this allows for the player being damaged to GTFO. If you're one-shot, being oneshotx10 within the same area will not help. Healers are supposed to heal, this makes sure that if they have any form of intelligence they will stay healed. It cannot and should not be affected by duration but in order to save a player some immunity needs to be there briefly.

In addition, it would be useful for 100% health players- those few seconds will give them the moment to take down the heavy mob that's about to kill another player, for example.

Edited May 13, 2014 by UpgradeInProgress

[Tarille]

If the you use Blessing and heal up one person for 90% and everyone else gets 0% - That's implies that the people getting 0% AREN'T HURT AT ALL.

 

Yes, it means you can't pop blessing to heal up 1 person and allow your entire team to go rambo with no consequences - But by no means does it make it a single target ability.

 

If you constantly play around some idiot who keeps getting in over his head and has no self sustain, yes it will be a primarily single target ability - But unless your entire team is taking literally no damage (Or only shield damage), it will still have good multi-target effects - The healing and also the damage reduction (Even with it being a smaller percentage) will still be valuable outside niche scenarios where no-one is taking health damage (But if they're not taking health damage they evidently don't need healing and damage reduction)

[holyicon]

If the you use Blessing and heal up one person for 90% and everyone else gets 0% - That's implies that the people getting 0% AREN'T HURT AT ALL.

 

Yes, it means you can't pop blessing to heal up 1 person and allow your entire team to go rambo with no consequences - But by no means does it make it a single target ability.

 

If you constantly play around some idiot who keeps getting in over his head and has no self sustain, yes it will be a primarily single target ability - But unless your entire team is taking literally no damage (Or only shield damage), it will still have good multi-target effects - The healing and also the damage reduction (Even with it being a smaller percentage) will still be valuable outside niche scenarios where no-one is taking health damage (But if they're not taking health damage they evidently don't need healing and damage reduction)

 

The point of a Healing Skill is the antithesis of your entire response.

Taken to its logical conclusion, without even being reductive, you just said,

"If a player takes damage, then they deserve to die. There should be no need for healing skills, so why should they be any good?"

 

Edited May 13, 2014 by holyicon

[Zkorp]

As I've already said, with this blessing you'll be able with extreme luck, to heal and protect an already solid frame but you'll never be able to save a squishy frame. Frail frames will never benefit from the presence of a trinity as they are full hps or smashed to the ground, there's no in-between...

[Tarille]

Scenario:

 

A is near death, B pops Blessing but is a split-second too late, A is now down. B goes to rescue A but takes normal damage because they were at full health when it popped, they are now at risk when picking up A because of 0% damage negation.

 

More likely scenario:

 

A is near death, B, C and D are missing some health (Not a lot, but some) - Blessing is popped a split second too late. A is now down, B, C and D can go to rescue with slightly more damage reduction and health than they had previously.

 

As opposed to A, B, C and D are full health and cannot take damage except in a ~2 second window every now and then when Blessing is recast.

 

The point of a Healing Skill is the antithesis of your entire response.

Taken to its logical conclusion, without even being reductive, you just said,

"If a player takes damage, then they deserve to die. There should be no need for healing skills, so why should they be any good?"

 

 

A healing skill should be for healing. The main focus should not be a "LOL 1 button and my team cannot die" that has no need for using WHEN PEOPLE ARE HURT.

 

It should be used for the healing, with damage reduction being icing on the cake - Or a buffer to make a bad situation more survivable. It should not be press a button and allow your team to go rambo into level 2500 Heavy gunners with 0 survivability mods or skills other than Trinity's Blessing.

 

In a normal game where people aren't immune to damage constantly (Outside cheesing ODD with Booben) - People take damage. People take a lot of damage, and outside of a few niche things (Team Health Restores, Life Strike, Nekros and Oberon's Health Orbs, Valkyr's Hysteria and Trinity's and Oberon's healing and maybe Rejuvenation aura) there's no way to get life back reliably.

 

This means that in a normal game, there will be multiple viable targets to hit with a Blessing to HEAL them and then give them additional damage reduction on top.

 

You're complaining about if you use the heal on someone who's at 10% health while everyone else on your team is at 100% health then it means that the skill is literally useless in a team situation - Forgetting that the most common scenario isn't only 1 person taking damage (Outside PuGs that have 1 really bad player in)

 

While, yes situations will arise where you'll be forced into a decision where you use Blessing to heal 1 person from dying at the risk of not being able to heal other people who might be about to take damage or save it and let that 1 person go down and have the ability to save the other people on the team. This doesn't mean that the skill is useless for teams, just that you actually have to think about using it, not just have a Drinking Bird set up on the 4 button to grant everyone in the team permanent immunity.

 

This change turns it into a heal that works similarly to Oberon's Renewal (Which doesn't affect people who are full health either) - The downside is that there's a recast cooldown while the buff is active (As far as I know. Maybe that'll change when this version goes live), the upside is that it's a full heal, full shields and also will grant damage reduction instantly.

[Fomiru]

I like the proposed changes a lot, they are fantastic.

 

Do realize that saving someone and then not being able to save another because of how cooldowns work is a thing in many games, it's to promote balance.

 

I really like the changes coming up.

[holyicon]

 

-snip-

 

A healing skill should be for healing. The main focus should not be a "LOL 1 button and my team cannot die" that has no need for using WHEN PEOPLE ARE HURT.

 

 

-snip-

 

 

True.

I've never been fond of Perpetual invincibility or (for that matter) Link Bombing.

My point is that in the effort of quashing God-Mode, this "tweak" is to the detriment of healing.

 

Players take as insane amount of damage on squishy frames. If you don't START casting blessing by the time they hit 50% Shields, THEY WILL BE DEAD by the time Blessing finishes casting, even with Natural Talent.

 

A skill's merit is in how useful it is by design, not how skillful your team members are or aren't. No, you can't ignore the meta, that's why games are tweaked, but the meta can't be all you base your ideas on. There has to be a central/unified set of mechanics unique to the game. Blessing needs work, but not this.

 

[Tarille]

True.

I've never been fond of Perpetual invincibility or (for that matter) Link Bombing.

My point is that in the effort of quashing God-Mode, this "tweak" is to the detriment of healing.

 

Players take as insane amount of damage on squishy frames. If you don't START casting blessing by the time they hit 50% Shields, THEY WILL BE DEAD by the time Blessing finishes casting, even with Natural Talent.

 

A skill's merit is in how useful it is by design, not how skillful your team members are or aren't. No, you can't ignore the meta, that's why games are tweaked, but the meta can't be all you base your ideas on. There has to be a central/unified set of mechanics unique to the game. Blessing needs work, but not this.

 

 

True.

 

But I dare say one of several things will happen:

 

Glassy frames will start sacrificing damage for survivability in order to get more benefit from running with Trinity's (In the form of running with Vitality, Redirection and/or Vigor)

 

It will be noted that in the new system, Blessing takes too long to cast to be practical and/or the cooldown is too crippling and as such, changes will be made to improve that.

 

People will carry on as they currently do, but will make a more active effort to reduce damage taken when a Trinity is in the team (In my experience, not every team runs with a Trinity - Meaning squishy frames like Nova, Ember, Nyx, Loki, Banshee, Nekros etc have to survive the 30 min+ T3 survivals without any insta-full heals)

 

Also, as far as I'm aware, this change doesn't actually impact it's usefulness as a heal - Since people won't become squishier, the cast point is not being changed (Unless it's being improved) the only thing that's changing is the fact that it's currently used more for the invulnerability rather than healing so most people don't notice how hard it is to maximize healing because few people actually try to.

 

There are lots of ways to make the new change really viable without becoming broken:

 

- Have 100% immunity for the entire team while casting (So, when you start the animation everyone is immune, and when it finishes and everyone receives the heal and the damage reduction buff it dissipates)

 

- Improve the cast time so it's much easier to time correctly

 

- Remove the cooldown, making premature usage less crippling.

 

Are just a few - They all focus on using the heal as an actual heal, the damage reduction/immunity won't overshadow the healing portion of the healing skill.

[holyicon]

True.

 

But I dare say one of several things will happen:

 

-snip-

 

 

The inclusion of a Trinity is already a team sacrifice of damage for survivability.

 

Teams without a Trinity are able to function based on Overlapping Denial: Bastille, Stomp, M.Prime and other such area CC/Damage.

Remember that the Cell limit is 4. So "balance" in the meta is very different from "other games".

The idea is to achieve the same goal different ways.

People are Double Penalizing Trinity because Blessing has been broken for so long. She can't (or shouldn't) contribute in damage in the same way as other frames. We all have access to the same weapons, and I consider Link-Bombing an exploit. So what ELSE does a Trinity do?

This is not an MMO where you have a Tank, DD and Healer. "Hate" is on whoever gets in the mob's sight-line. So Trinity is in the on the same grid as the others when it comes to tactics. Only with a "healer's" armor.

 

Every penalty Trinity already suffers was based on how good Blessing is ... was. When USED PROPERLY.

 

So... take away that, and then expect others to also shift from attack to defense... and you make Trinity a Pariah.

 

 

 

Other than that the suggestions you make are solid.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've been playing Trinity for over a year now. I've seen how the changes have affected the frame. I know the course of this river. There are rocks ahead.

Edited May 13, 2014 by holyicon

[Neogeo]

I amuse that they somehow make blessing a single target healing power and still unusable for solo. Not really. If they think I'm gonna lock myself in casting animation like forever just so I could heal some SOL who wanna play Rambo. They're in for a rude awakening. Nobody going to use blessing if this nerf went through. Nobody! It serve no purpose in a fast phase action game like this. Thanks for ruin yet another frame ultimate power.

Edited May 13, 2014 by Neogeo

[Vaskadar]

A simple way to rectify this. Allow blessing to revive fallen teammates.

[Tarille]

So what ELSE does a Trinity do?

 

Well...

 

She can be a damage sponge with Link, and can use that 75% damage reduction to play aggressively - Allowing her to pick up fallen allies in dangerous areas, or to get aggressive with weapons (Doesn't necessitate using self damage from AoE weapons - It can be stuff like getting up close with shotguns, spray and pray weapons etc)

 

It's also possible for her to take the aggro off the squishier members of the team, allowing them a bit more room to do what they need to do.

 

Is it perfect? No, but it's still strong even without abusing self-damage. It allows Trinity to become very sturdy despite having low armour.

 

She can provide energy to allies via Energy Vampire - Which is being buffed to be more viable at the same time as the Blessing nerf - This allows caster frames to more freely use their abilities for offense and defence increasing potential damage output (Perhaps not too much when you consider how a lot of damaging abilities don't scale well... But at the very least, it really helps those powerful abilities that most frames have to be used more frequently)

 

Then there is the whole, having the most healing output of any frame in game - Only 2 frames actually have direct healing abilities - Oberon and Trinity - Which, for most of the game, isn't instantly depleted (It is in end-game though) and is a finite resource due to limited ways to restore it, healing can be quite valuable.

 

With the balance team looking at Trinity right now, there is also the possibility that Well of Life becomes more useful too, providing some more healing.

 

The only issue with healing is the whole end-game being a lot of potential 1-shots for a lot of frames and the potential issues from the cast time on Blessing (We'll have to see what the final changes look like and see how it performs in-game I guess...)

[Seasonsofclarity]

Threads like this make me wonder how many people actually bother to run S#&$ without Trinity like I do.

 

This change has zero effect on me.  God-mode is god-mode no matter how you want to spin it, and the change ends that.

[holyicon]

Well...

 

-snip-

 

The problem starts when you're at the level where Link no-longer provides enough protection to facilitate its own function.

Blessing was the answer for that. If you had to step out into the open and revive a player that got 1~2-shot by some Lv60++ Gunner who's still spraying across the field.

I dunno, maybe we should lose that fight?

 

Or players should learn to stay in 360deg cover while the enfilade conditions change three times every second?

 

Okay, suppose the % Immunity that Blessing confers to each team member is the highest % amongst all players healed.

Then Link+Blessing would be (still be but just in a new way) an interesting combo.

Trinity would throw up Link, mosey out into the field all aggressive like, take a bunch of damage, pop Blessing and then continue going to town all tank-commander style. .... because that's the role of a support-healer.

FYI, this was the reason Link, Energy Vampire and Well of Life got changed a few month ago. It didn't exactly fix the problem.

 

But we can't assume D.E. is doing any more or less than what they've told us. They tell us exactly what they want to say for a reason.

 

 

 

 

 

And for the record, nobody cares when you Energy Vampire a target. They just as soon mow them down if able, and using it multiple times in a row basically prevents you from doing anything else but be a Gimp Station Attendant. "No don't shoot this one, just spank him a little!"

 

Do you want the Trinity in the fight or not?

Yes and we become "Crazy OP Tank NERF NERF NERF!"

No and we become "Trashframe! Get good noob!"

 

We're getting pinched between opposing requests, opposing senses of balance, and opposing standards. And being asked to take the worst of each and still be attentive to a Team that couldn't care less about us during a mission.

(That's why I've stopped playing PUGs)

 

You do raise some good points, or at least, they would be a lot better if they more accurately applied to the Warframe in-game/Mission Dynamic.

And I think that's about as much rambling as I can manage for one day.

[holyicon]

Threads like this make me wonder how many people actually bother to run S#&$ without Trinity like I do.

 

This change has zero effect on me.  God-mode is god-mode no matter how you want to spin it, and the change ends that.

 

I run plenty of missions without a Trinity. After 1 year of having Trinity, my playtime on her is only 49%.

But the POINT of this thread is when you're running a mission WITH a Trinity.

[(PSN)Pengu_Imperialus]

I run plenty of missions without a Trinity. After 1 year of having Trinity, my playtime on her is only 49%.

But the POINT of this thread is when you're running a mission WITH a Trinity.

I do like the change. I should point out that the devs have said endless scaling defense and survival are not a concern as far as frame reworks go. So any discussion about a power not being effective at 60+ probably will fall on deaf ears. In fact you'll probably see true end game somewhere in the 50s.