What Happened To Weapon Catalysts?

[Raydiayt]

You know, the blue potatoes? 

 

I know they were kind of common a while ago due to invasions and alerts, but I haven't seen one obtainable without plat in a few months. I live on the East Coast, so I'd assume the times they go up shouldn't be too bad?

 

It's reasonable to keep the blueprints rare, but not this rare. 

Am I the only one who thinks another catalyst blueprint needs to be available sometime? 

[DarthRevan84]

I have 9 of each stockpiled because im very VERY selective about what weapons i put them on. perhaps you should be a bit more choosey about where to use them?

[-Upgreid-]

Just trade. 20 plat is rather easy once you know how to sell and negotiate.

[Qeveren]

There was a run of them over the past few weeks in invasions etc. (I gathered six), but that seems to have died back out again.  I'm sure there'll be more in the future.  Or there's always the market I guess.

[Davoodoo]

I have 9 of each stockpiled because im very VERY selective about what weapons i put them on. perhaps you should be a bit more choosey about where to use them?

Im rank 15 and i cant even be choosy about what i put forma at cause i have everything and my main activity is squeezing 8 mods on each and every weapon cause theres nothing else to do in game.

[Varonth]

Oh I guess you must be new here.

DE likes to sell straight up power via market, instead of you know make it available ingame at an always available source.

 

You want to progress? Spent money or hope for the best. There is no way of active progression in terms of pure power.

DE made a fun to play game and locked power behind paywalls. If this would have been an EA game, it would have been teared apart by the press for being Pay-2-Win. But thankfully DE isn't EA so the press and it's players is more generous.

 

For those defending the current system, please think about this:

Would you still defend it if this game was made by EA instead of DE.

[TonyFoot]

-snip-

 

What rock did you crawl out from under, and how long have you been there?

 

This game's not even close to pay-2-win! There were no less than a half dozen competitions and give-aways by players with platinum counts as high as 30,000. They got that through TRADING, not real money. you can take that 50 you get at the start of the game and turn it into 500, provided you actually know what you're doing.

 

Yes, the game has faults in its market and trade system, but calling it P2W is just wrong. And no, EA would have gotten away with this just as easily as DE has (not that there's anything to, "get away with"). The players here are a good community, but they aren't idiots. Don't insult our intelligence.

 

OP, blue potatoes are a part of the random alert system, but the alert system always cycles through every possible reward at least once before restarting. It's been a while since the last potatoe alert, so be vigilant and you should be able to nab it (provided the friggin' RNG doesn't drop it at 3am...again). Also, you guys know about the lotus' gifts, right? Watch the news for livestreams!

 

(Ha! see? No need to pay to progress...just speeds things up is all.)

[Varonth]

What rock did you crawl out from under, and how long have you been there?

 

This game's not even close to pay-2-win! There were no less than a half dozen competitions and give-aways by players with platinum counts as high as 30,000. They got that through TRADING, not real money. you can take that 50 you get at the start of the game and turn it into 500, provided you actually know what you're doing.

 

Yes, the game has faults in its market and trade system, but calling it P2W is just wrong. And no, EA would have gotten away with this just as easily as DE has (not that there's anything to, "get away with"). The players here are a good community, but they aren't idiots. Don't insult our intelligence.

 

OP, blue potatoes are a part of the random alert system, but the alert system always cycles through every possible reward at least once before restarting. It's been a while since the last potatoe alert, so be vigilant and you should be able to nab it (provided the friggin' RNG doesn't drop it at 3am...again). Also, you guys know about the lotus' gifts, right? Watch the news for livestreams!

 

(Ha! see? No need to pay to progress...just speeds things up is all.)

 

This is just wrong on so many points. You cannot trade platinum which was aquired by any promotional means. Not those 50 at the start, nor any platinum which was handed out via promotion codes (stream give aways for example).

 

Every traded platinum was paid for. Not necessarily by yourself, but some paid real money for this.

And this platinum vanishes at some point so more has to be bought. Items on the other hand will stay in the economy forever. Arguing with a market which is cursed to crash at some point for every items except for the latest and newest isn't a good argument.

Probably the reason there is no auction house like thing. Prices would crash within minutes to the bare minimum for 99% of all items.

 

The market gets more and more saturated while it already is oversaturated because items don't vanish while the main ressource for trading does.

 

What you cannot do is log in, and work towards a potato via pure ingame means. Means that involve absolutely no cash at some point in the chain.

If cash is involved in any point of the chain of an item, it is basic Pay-2-Win.

[TonyFoot]

 

What you cannot do is log in, and work towards a potato via pure ingame means. Means that involve absolutely no cash at some point in the chain.

If cash is involved in any point of the chain of an item, it is basic Pay-2-Win.

 

Except, you can.

 

Alerts, invasions, and livestream drops. no cash, no trades, just potatoes. Yes, they're random, but that adds to their value, and DE does, in fact, need an income. You CAN get them without paying, it simply takes more time to do so, which could be avoided by paying.

 

Not satisfied? Forma can be pulled straight from the void, which adds power to weapons without pulling cash from the players wallet. Is it as fast as a potatoe for power addition? No, but it doesn't stop players from making their mod load-outs more and more powerful. Eventually, they'll save enough mod points to create a load out that would rival a potatoed weapon. Aura and stances are another example of power addition without cash, simply on a lesser scale. are these methods as quick as simply purchasing from the market? no, but all that does it add time, which could be avoided by paying.

 

We done yet? No? Okay, the load out itself! Virtually every weapon in the game barring primes, a few clan tech, and events (for the foreseeable future) can be acquired through the market for plat, but ALL weapons (again events, for the foreseeable future) can be acquired through in game means. It simply takes more time, which could be avoided by paying.

 

notice that last line in every paragraph? That's what plat's for - avoiding the wait for something. It's not pay to win, it's just a convenience sale.

 

DE likes to sell straight up power via market, instead of you know make it available ingame at an always available source.

 

 Bull. The void is an always available source of forma, and if you can't stand to wait for potatoes, pay up or get out. They DO dish these things out. It's RNG based, so everyone is on the same page here. yes, other could make a plat purchased and skip the wait but that's what that's there for. DE makes sure to add a number of these critical items through the 24 hour livestream alerts, so they aren't blind to this. 

 

You cannot trade platinum which was aquired by any promotional means. Not those 50 at the start, nor any platinum which was handed out via promotion codes (stream give aways for example).

 

Every traded platinum was paid for. Not necessarily by yourself, but some paid real money for this.

And this platinum vanishes at some point so more has to be bought. Items on the other hand will stay in the economy forever. Arguing with a market which is cursed to crash at some point for every items except for the latest and newest isn't a good argument.

Probably the reason there is no auction house like thing. Prices would crash within minutes to the bare minimum for 99% of all items.

 

 

Will concede the untradeable platinum, but that doesn't occlude the fact that I've seen a 30k plat trade-only account in the fan contest section. This is a good arguement, but it shows the 'bad economy' problem, not the Pay2Win arguement.

 

You can acquire plat with out having to first make a purchase - farm up a rare mod, prime parts, or max a serration, and trade those. convenience is available mostly to those who paid, but power is within everyone's reach.

 

Edit: I'm not saying the system's perfect, I know it has it's flaws (indeterminate wait times or roundabout acquisition methods for a critical item). I'm saying it's not as bad as you say it is.

Edited May 17, 2014 by TonyFoot

[ePilgrim]

It's reasonable to keep the blueprints rare, but not this rare. 

 

The alternative method of powering up weapons via forma is enjoyable and a huge part of my routine on Warframe.

I make sure I always have a Forma blueprint ready and I always keep my forma furnace hot. Adding extra stars to your favourite weapons also feels a little more rewarding then jamming in the potato and being set for life. But to confront what you said directly, I share your view that semi-exclusive items shouldn't have a place in Warframe and should be eventually phased out.

[Varonth]

Yesterday I logged into the game because I was told I can just log into the game and go into an alert or invasion with a catalyst/reactor. There was none.

 

And the good old Forma argument which couldn't be more wrong. Why is it wrong? Well I have a potatoed Burston Prime which I already spent 3 formas on. Guess what, one slot is still empty. I still need to Forma it twice to get all slots filled with the mods it should have.

 

Even if I would forma it 8 times, without a potato, I couldn't use it with the mods I want.

 

Also, the problem is really just catalyst. That reactors are that rare, fine. There is a quite limited pool of items which require a reactor. But catalysts for weapons are treated equally to reactors. They even have the same market place value of 20p which does not make any sense, as you need like 5-6 times as many catalysts as you need reactors.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Varonth

[Wolfstorm18]

Just trade. 20 plat is rather easy once you know how to sell and negotiate.

 

 

It was. It is no more. 

[TonyFoot]

Yesterday I logged into the game because I was told I can just log into the game and go into an alert or invasion with a catalyst/reactor. There was none.

 

And the good old Forma argument which couldn't be more wrong. Why is it wrong? Well I have a potatoed Burston Prime which I already spent 3 formas on. Guess what, one slot is still empty. I still need to Forma it twice to get all slots filled with the mods it should have.

 

Even if I would forma it 8 times, without a potato, I couldn't use it with the mods I want.

 

Also, the problem is really just catalyst. That reactors are that rare, fine. There is a quite limited pool of items which require a reactor. But catalysts for weapons are treated equally to reactors. They even have the same market place value of 20p which does not make any sense, as you need like 5-6 times as many catalysts as you need reactors.

 

'Kay, if you're getting the, "I was told" from me, you read my post wrong. I'm telling you that if you keep playing the game, eventually, there will be a catalyst alert. might not be today, might not be tommorow, but there will be a catalyst that you didn't have to pay for.

Shocking, I know.

 

As for the Burston, that comes with a V polarity slot. My Braton prime, which comes with NO polarities and is potatoe'd and Forma'd EXACTLY as many times as your burston, currently has enough fire power to rival my friggin' SOMA. 

You, mate, are doing it wrong.

 

And I don't even KNOW what you're doing with your catalysts, cuz I've got nearly three times as many catalysts as I do reactors in my inventory. The alerts and invasions that reward reactors, catalysts, and forma are all controlled by RNG, not posted by DE. The only things they post concerning those items are the livestream alerts (gifts from the lotus).

CLEARLY, this is user error, not system bias.

 

Edit: at the time of this edit, 1:31pm eastern time, 18/05/2014, I have just completed the five missions necessary to acquire an Orokin Catalyst from the alert on Eligor, Europa. You were saying something about how we had to pay for those? Hmmmmm.

Edited May 18, 2014 by TonyFoot

[Varonth]

'Kay, if you're getting the, "I was told" from me, you read my post wrong. I'm telling you that if you keep playing the game, eventually, there will be a catalyst alert. might not be today, might not be tommorow, but there will be a catalyst that you didn't have to pay for.

Shocking, I know.

 

As for the Burston, that comes with a V polarity slot. My Braton prime, which comes with NO polarities and is potatoe'd and Forma'd EXACTLY as many times as your burston, currently has enough fire power to rival my friggin' SOMA. 

You, mate, are doing it wrong.

 

And I don't even KNOW what you're doing with your catalysts, cuz I've got nearly three times as many catalysts as I do reactors in my inventory. The alerts and invasions that reward reactors, catalysts, and forma are all controlled by RNG, not posted by DE. The only things they post concerning those items are the livestream alerts (gifts from the lotus).

CLEARLY, this is user error, not system bias.

 

Edit: at the time of this edit, 1:31pm eastern time, 18/05/2014, I have just completed the five missions necessary to acquire an Orokin Catalyst from the alert on Eligor, Europa. You were saying something about how we had to pay for those? Hmmmmm.

 

They also control the market which has 20p pricetag for both.

 

And again, you don't get it. If I log into the game, right now. As in any other game with good progression system, where I can log into the game and progress the type of power I want at any time I want. No I can't in Warframe.

You have no control if you progress or not at some point.

 

Hiding power behind a paywall or a completely uncontrolable randomness wall is not good design.

When will you finally get it?

 

This is not orokin void randomness, which is random, but you have some control over it. This is just a dice role with a 1000 side dice. Someone else roles it for you every hour, and if it is 7, you get your reward. Like absolutely no control.

How it should be is: you log into the game, you do some mission which will can give you parts for orokin catalysts and you get maybe 1 or 2 parts out of 10. And you feel like you got closer to a new catalyst. And next day you do a few different missions and you get part 3-7. Next day you just get part 8. And 2 days later you get part 9 and 10 and you can build a catalyst.

 

There should be an always available way of aquiring those via pure ingame means. That does not include trading real money for items. Just ingame means. A way which does not include $ at any step of the chain.

You could still sell them, but it would just be convenience at that point.

[TonyFoot]

They also control the market which has 20p pricetag for both.

Yes, I agree in the larger scheme, one is more valuable than the other, but both, in essence share the same function: Supercharging, the doubling of the available mod points on a particular piece of gear.

That price hasn't been altered in a very long time, but I think the reason lies with newer players: from their perspective, both are pretty much equally valuable, because even if their weapon to frame ratio is 3:1, that frame is all they've got, and supercharging their frame results in a much bigger boost than supercharging their weapon (intro weapons aren't really worth a potato anyway).

You mess with that price, you mess with the intro to the game. Positive or negative effects? Dunno, but be very careful with that. Being able to entertain and cater to new players is critical to this game's survival.

And again, you don't get it. If I log into the game, right now. As in any other game with good progression system, where I can log into the game and progress the type of power I want at any time I want. No I can't in Warframe.

You have no control if you progress or not at some point.

And here's where you and I disagree. You say you can't progress whenever you want without money or luck because Potatos are locked behind a pay/RNG wall. I say you can progress without money or luck because Forma isn't.

The reason I argue this is because Potatoes and Forma essentially serve the same function in different manners: Mod space. Power progression doesn't come from the supercharge or polarity, it comes from the mods you equip. No mods, no improvement. Forma adds mod space by reducing mod cost. Potatoes add space by doubling the space allowed by rank. Potatoes are more convenient and much faster than forma, which is why I argue that even with potatoes behind a wall, as powerful as they might seem, its still just selling convenience.

It occurs to me that combining them is what gets you to the highest levels of power, but that level of power is meant only for the latest levels in the game, where you would take your most trusted gear, not your entire arsenal. The Devs have even stated that they think the players, as they are now, are actually TOO powerful, that we weren't meant to get this far (meaning wave 100 in defence or an hour into survival). Right or wrong, you're not actually meant to be able to potato everything in your arsenal. That's just too much.

To put it in perspective, it would not be impossible to argue that you shouldn't even have potatoes in the first place, but no one would really support that argument (I know I wouldn't, keep your grubby paws off my spuds!) All I'm saying is this: when you say you need a potato to really progress, I think you're wrong. I think endgame can be achieved with forma, it is simply easier, faster, and more gratifying to add a catalyst.

For example, four stars on my Soma would let me equip pretty much my entire load out, even without a potato. I might have to forego fast hands, maybe even hammer shot, but I could still take that baby all they way to wave 30 in T3. Yes the rifle is perhaps not as powerful as it could be, but it's still more than enough for anything the tower could throw at me.

Hiding power behind a paywall or a completely uncontrolable randomness wall is not good design.

When will you finally get it?

maybe putting the potatoes behind the wall is hiding power, maybe the difference between them and forma is too much. I wouldn't know.

I just know that the available power to the current free2play player base is more than enough to trump any challenge Warframe can currently throw at them. It is a co-op game. I know how competitive people can get with the kill counts, but at the end of the day, someone having more power than you is more of a boon than a burden.

This is not orokin void randomness, which is random, but you have some control over it. This is just a dice role with a 1000 side dice. Someone else roles it for you every hour, and if it is 7, you get your reward. Like absolutely no control.

How it should be is: you log into the game, you do some mission which will can give you parts for orokin catalysts and you get maybe 1 or 2 parts out of 10. And you feel like you got closer to a new catalyst. And next day you do a few different missions and you get part 3-7. Next day you just get part 8. And 2 days later you get part 9 and 10 and you can build a catalyst.

You know what? I agree. The only way to control when you get a potato is with money. Otherwise it's random chance. But as I've tried to explain, I think that's probably for a good reason.

And a way to earn potatoes? Hell yeah, I'd be right up there kicking &#! and taking parts. But I think that's what the Devs hoped Forma would be: a way to earn power, and thus progression, without a pay/luck wall. It might have failed because a forma doesn't hold a candle to a catalyst, but that's only if you think it failed. I don't. I think most players see it as just another way to become more powerful in addition to what they already have, rather than as an alternate moneyless, albeit slower method of progression.

There should be an always available way of aquiring those via pure ingame means. That does not include trading real money for items. Just ingame means. A way which does not include $ at any step of the chain.

You could still sell them, but it would just be convenience at that point.

Technically I could still argue that alerts, invasions and live-streams mean that you can acquire them without $, but that's really a luck-wall instead of a pay wall, isn't it? You want to be able to get them without having to climb those walls, right?

Honestly, I think that would be too much. End game players would abuse the hell out of an in game potato dispenser. If you were ever going to make one of those, it should really be for newer players only. Be really careful with something like that. Warframe's power balance is a delicate thing as it is.

You've got good points, your facts are straight and I like some of your ideas, but you and I will just have to agree to disagree on exactly how fast players should be able progress and how high they should be able to go.

Edited May 18, 2014 by TonyFoot

[Aercascade]

This game is more event-2-win or play-2-win than pay 2 win.

The term pay2win doesn't have a proper definition but from my experience if you really think this game is pay to win go find any game run by gameforge. Then come back and tell me.

 

You will have to work harder for items than somebody splashing out on this game, yet you can still get every non-cosmetic item (with the exception of helmets) without paying real money. Where is the issue?

 

If you're expecting to come into a free2play game and expect them to hold your hand for you, you're playing the wrong game.

Buy2play or Pay2Play for that. Otherwise DE or any other free2play company ain't going to be turning a profit and in the end they need to to sustain the game and continue updating it.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Sutherland