Warframe Ability Changes: Nova

[Ittia]

I posted this earlier today in this thread: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/233158-suggestion-for-nova/?p=2700451

 

"

What? No. 

 

Her ulti isn't used for damage past mid game, which would render it completely useless. 

 

DE should remove the damage from her ulti and simply make it a debuff. 200% more damage taken 50% slower at the cost of giving the ability duration instead of it lasting for ONE MINUTE. 7/10/15 seconds tops, affected by duration mods. And to give her some damage, they should make Anti Matter Drop affected by range mods.

 

Bam, Nova nerfed without making her completely useless.

 

"

 

I think this would be a much more sensible nerf in her regard, would also make her fun to play as it would require a bit of strategy. If we're going to nerf MP, we should at the very least let AMD be affected by range mods.

[Treebear2]

If kill count is the root concern, why not implement anything that contributes to the kill of a mob be added to players' kill count? Support classes have always gotten screwed over like Trinity who keeps her team alive and kills less, but now it's even worse cause she's even busier heal spamming. It'll be the same complaint that's used for every single nerf and until the root cause is solved, I don't see the point to nerfing at all.

 

Onto the changes. Considering how I've seen older frames get nerfed, I've always felt that Nova's MP should have a prime duration which is a welcomed change to add challenge. Other than that, all the other tweaks seem like side changes.

 

I don't know where you gather that kill count is the reason for these changes, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find a handful of people that complain about that.

[PsycloneM]

If you're actually going to nerf nova now, then how about nerfing antimatter drop? I can deal 5 to 10 million damage hits to a laaaaaaaaaaarge area without any effort. Just a few pew-pews and a level 1650 enemy dies in a single blow. Need proof?

 

Your video provides another example of enemy health scaling not functioning properly beyond a certain level.

 

First, I don't see any instances of damage greater than 428814, and that was on an ancient healer. Considering the weapon you were using (which was probably well-modded), the number of shots you unloaded into the particle, Molecular Prime's double damage, 2x headshot damage, and the healer's 1.5x modifier to radiation damage, that number is within reason. Without those bonuses, Antimatter Drop would have dealt 71469 damage.

 

What's not expected is that you dealt roughly 70k damage to level-1645 enemies and killed them. Enemy health scales according to the following expression:

 

base health + base health x 0.015 x ( current level - base level ) ^ 2.

 

So a level-1645 charger should have roughly 3.2 million health (80 base health, and spawn level of 1). The fact that you are one-shotting a level-1645 charger with only 70k damage tells me that enemy health is not scaling according to this expression at very high level. I can't say whether this is intentional; if it was, I figure the reason would be to prevent enemies from becoming massive bullet sponges. Although, this does not account for the observation that shields scale as expected.

 

In relation to Antimatter Drop, I don't believe your achievement is a testament to the ability being overpowered. Rather, enemy health at that level is much lower than it should be.

 

 

However, as I mentioned in my first post in this topic, weapons with innate punch through cause Antimatter Drop's damage calculation to go haywire. With only a rank-10 Serration, Split Chamber, and +120% elemental damage, I can produce these damage values with a single shot:

 

 

Removing the damage bonuses from resistances, headshots, and Molecular Prime, that's 117234 damage. The damage formula is 100 + 4 x weapon damage. So with my set up, that would look like 130 + 4 x 250 x ( 1 + 1.05 ) x ( 1 + 1.2 ) x 2 = 9150 damage. Antimatter Drop does not factor in critical damage, and even if it did, that would not account for the discrepancy. I'm assuming that due to the innate punch through, the projectile is actually hitting the particle multiple times.

 

With no forma and a minimalist loadout, it should not be easy to achieve this much damage with one pull of the trigger. If this behavior could be corrected I think it would be fair to consider improving the damage consistency and control of Antimatter Drop, and to consider restoring Null Star's pre-Damage 2.0 crowd control as Molecular Prime's proposed changes are implemented.

Edited May 18, 2014 by PsycloneM

[fatpig84]

No x2 damage received ?

 

whelp :/

But I will call it as I see it.

[ArchBlood]

Bananas

This. This @(*()$ post right here. I love it.

[(PSN)draven_ev]

You guys do realize that DE actually reads this, right?  Collectively, as the player base for this game, WE (understand?) are saying that Nova should :

-Run Slower

-Not do any real damage with her abilities

-Not have any status effect at all (lose the slowing effect of prime)

 And I'm sure WE made other suggestions... 

 

All I'm saying is - think about your opinion before posting it.  If they do these things WE are suggesting, WE might as well throw this game away.

Because OUR opinions could be breaking things.  Do you like the changes to Trinity?  Are WE going to like Nova anymore?  What frame will WE post OUR opinions on next?  

 

Your opinion, bad or not, could be taken as everyone's opinion.  

 

Also, BANANAS!

Edited May 18, 2014 by (PS4)draven_ev

[Cleesus]

You guys do realize that DE actually reads this, right?  Collectively, as the player base for this game, WE (understand?) are saying that Nova should :

-Run Slower

-Not do any real damage with her abilities

-Not have any status effect at all (lose the slowing effect of prime)

 And I'm sure WE made other suggestions... 

 

All I'm saying is - think about your opinion before posting it.  If they do these things WE are suggesting, WE might as well throw this game away.

Because OUR opinions could be breaking things.  Do you like the changes to Trinity?  Are WE going to like Nova anymore?  What frame will WE post OUR opinions on next?  

 

Your opinion, bad or not, could be taken as everyone's opinion.  

 

Also, BANANAS!

nobody is asking or suggesting them to do ALL of the stuff listed in this thread. They are simple suggestion to help shape how they balance Nova and for the record I do like the trinity balance.

[Xarian]

No frame should have an ability that destroys an entire room of equivalent-difficulty enemies nearly instantly by itself.

 

Antimatter drop does a lot of damage if set up right in a small area. It makes Null Star almost completely obsolete; however you should note that this is true of most frames - their first ability is nearly useless. It's nowhere near the level of MPrime, however; MPrime scales with the number of enemies that it hits, which makes enemies easier the more of them there are, essentially eliminating one of the few ways the game has with adding difficulty (swarming).

 

Even if the "effect ring" moves slowly, it's still going to effect a whole room of enemies. It's still going to blow the hell out of groups of enemies - the explosions have the same area as Nyx's absorb, and that ability kills large groups just fine. It's still going to slow them. It's still going to double damage, and it's still going to have an extremely long duration. In short, it's still going to be one of the best abilities in the game.

 

The explosion range nerf is the one that tones the ability down damage-wise; the ability scales in damage linearly with the number of enemies (e.g. with 50 enemies in the explosion radius, it does 50x the total damage) so decreasing the radius decreases the total damage.

 

The effect speed nerf makes it so that the entire room doesn't explode all at once. If you affect the first couple guys and they die, then they explode before the next couple of guys get hit by the ability, potentially killing other guys before they get primed. This means that MPrime will deal decreased damage if the enemies aren't equally distant from Nova.

 

Frankly, I think it's really cool. It means that the ideal arrangement of enemies around Nova is a tightly-packed ring - like the sort of ring that you see created by Frost's snow globe. I'd like to see this sort of thing done with every frame - make each of them better in some situations and worse in others, and make players work to get their ideal setups for their ability usage. None of this "press 4, everything dies" business which has shown up in a great many frames (essentially all the AOE ultimates - Excalibur, Frost, Banshee, Saryn, etc). It's only recently with the addition of frames like Valkyr and Nekros that DE has wizened up and realized that more complex playstyles make for a better game.

 

Nova has 3 damage abilities; she doesn't need 3. Null Star should be replaced with something completely new - you'll never need to take it if you have access to Antimatter Drop.

[SevenLetterKWord]

- Slow-motion effect on enemies now scale with level (.75,.7,.6,.5 percent of normal speed) 

Woah, new MP will slow enemies down to 0.5% of normal speed?

That's 200 times slower than normal!

Four times the slowing power of Rhino Stomp!

op pls nerf

[Archwizard]

Woah, new MP will slow enemies down to 0.5% of normal speed?

That's 200 times slower than normal!

Four times the slowing power of Rhino Stomp!

op pls nerf

 

(I think she means .5x normal speed and had a brainfart writing it.)

[AerinPierce]

But the main reason why it's such a pain in the &#! to play with a Nova is the fact that it's no fun. Why? Because even if you set off the prime, it still feels like its she did all the work. A-Drop is a one hit nuke with a less ridiculous radius. Yes, it may be OP damage wise, but at least it's not sucking the fun out of the game for others constantly.

How does it suck the fun out, and for the love of all that I love in this game don't say because it steals kills, I've been on both sides and in this games kill do no matter. I personally instead of dumbing down or dilluting the powers of the frames people use 'to much' I'd like to see DE actually do what they said with the advent of Vauban, make everyone else better, not make those who are already good  be at the level of those who came before.

[Satsaru]

No frame should have an ability that destroys an entire room of equivalent-difficulty enemies nearly instantly by itself.

Another person who thinks this is a nova exclusive issue.  Literally 3/4ths of the frames can clear an entire room with one button press.

 

A nova fix is rather simple, in my opinion. With nova as my main frame, I'd suggest that the slowing effect should be weakened if not removed and give null-star its guaranteed stagger back.  Removing her damage debuff or explosion literally defeat the point of the frame itself.  She is a W.M.D. in warframe form.  It's her sole purpose.  She SHOULD be doing more damage than other frames.  I'd suggest maybe a slight range nerf on it, but in light of it's travel time now, I don't think that would be necessary.

 

I Nova doing lots of damage or clearing rooms bothers you, then I'd say just don't play with nova's.  But know that you're being silly, because unless you're playing rather high level content, a frost, rhino, mag, saryn. ember, Oberon, Volt, and arguably excalibur, zephyr, and hydroid can clear out that same room just as quickly.  Only the dedicated stealth frames, the very support/utility based ones, and valkyr don't have some massive room-clearing capability.  And even among them, Nyx has a room clear, it just isn't a quick one.

[(PSN)atpbx]

Another warframe to shelve and gather dust.

Along with 95% of the weapons, 95% of the mods and all but one of the sentinels.

[JohnnyWylde]

OMFG why did u nerfed nova's MP? Nova was NOT op. Speaking about nova's abilities, maximized Molecular Prime was S#&$ against 40+ lvl enemies, I cant understand why did u nerfed it. Sure, MP could decimate entire rooms of enemies, but lvl 1-30 enemies. You know, after 40 minutes in t3 survival, taking sustained damage Nova is dead in less than 3 seconds. Does that sounds OP? Why can't DE focus on important stuff, rather than listening noobs cries? Am I the only one pis.sed off because Formas requires 24 hours to build? Why not 12? Warframes parts, weapons, even Orokin reactor and catalyst builds in 12 hours, but not Formas. Why can't you change this and make Formas build in 12 hrs? But no, DE focuses on nerfing warframes. I polarized my nova 4 times, who's gonna give me those formas and an orokin reactor so I can rebuild it?

[Plutofour]

OMFG why did u nerfed nova's MP? Nova was NOT op. Speaking about nova's abilities, maximized Molecular Prime was S#&$ against 40+ lvl enemies, I cant understand why did u nerfed it. Sure, MP could decimate entire rooms of enemies, but lvl 1-30 enemies. You know, after 40 minutes in t3 survival, taking sustained damage Nova is dead in less than 3 seconds. Does that sounds OP? Why can't DE focus on important stuff, rather than listening noobs cries? Am I the only one pis.sed off because Formas requires 24 hours to build? Why not 12? Warframes parts, weapons, even Orokin reactor and catalyst builds in 12 hours, but not Formas. Why can't you change this and make Formas build in 12 hrs? But no, DE focuses on nerfing warframes. I polarized my nova 4 times, who's gonna give me those formas and an orokin reactor so I can rebuild it?

i love everything you just said

[MoonlightAngel]

OH.... DELETE HER AWAY FROM YOUR FOR FREE SPACE. YEAH....i feel a bit regret to waste my forma and potato on her

[Squiintts]

Another person who thinks this is a nova exclusive issue.  Literally 3/4ths of the frames can clear an entire room with one button press.

 

A nova fix is rather simple, in my opinion. With nova as my main frame, I'd suggest that the slowing effect should be weakened if not removed and give null-star its guaranteed stagger back.  Removing her damage debuff or explosion literally defeat the point of the frame itself.  She is a W.M.D. in warframe form.  It's her sole purpose.  She SHOULD be doing more damage than other frames.  I'd suggest maybe a slight range nerf on it, but in light of it's travel time now, I don't think that would be necessary.

 

I Nova doing lots of damage or clearing rooms bothers you, then I'd say just don't play with nova's.  But know that you're being silly, because unless you're playing rather high level content, a frost, rhino, mag, saryn. ember, Oberon, Volt, and arguably excalibur, zephyr, and hydroid can clear out that same room just as quickly.  Only the dedicated stealth frames, the very support/utility based ones, and valkyr don't have some massive room-clearing capability.  And even among them, Nyx has a room clear, it just isn't a quick one.

 

Another person who doesn't understand why the Nerf is coming.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/167441-the-perfect-way-to-nerf-nova/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/149170-nova-nerf-solution/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/184116-nova-nerf-suggestion/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/171594-nova-needs-nerfing/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/141384-not-just-another-nerf-nova-thread/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/152515-nova-molecular-prime-nerf/

 

To put it simply, the nerf is coming because Molecular Prime steals so many low level kills (of course anyone who's played this game past 30 minutes in a T3S would know it ends there).  Removing the slow effect, as you have suggested, will put no end to the kill-stealing-rage and we will likely be revisiting this "Nova Nerf" topic again in a couple months.  Not to mention that this will create a whole new rage from veteran players who rely on Molecular Prime primarily as a debuff in late-game content.

 

To me, the solution is simple:  Remove the explosions, force the player base to actually USE Antimatter Drop, because that IS her nuke.  Molecular Prime can then continue to be a great debuff, without stealing all the low-level kills.

[turbinea]

It just occurred to me, that it may be possible to satisfy both sides of the argument, if you can believe that.

What about to nerf MP to levels where whiners would finally shut the hell up, and (.....dramatic pause....), create new mod for her ult with only debuffs and damage multiplier and no explosion. Molecular Debuff (ehm) :)

 

Edit to clarify: That would mean creation another mod for nova, alongside of her old (soon to be nerfed) ult.

Also, players could install one of those versions of her ult but not both of them at the same time.

Edited May 18, 2014 by turbinea

[Hurcheon]

I hope her other abilities will get some buff like it was with Trinity. Molecular drop is too slow, its like trying to kill something with Supra when everybody else uses Soma. I'm worried about that 'pulses'. It's hard to justice, what about video with new ability?

 

Anyway, it was fun to run around and do big explosions with fast, quick diing Nova. What's wrong with fun?

I die with one shot and kill with one shot, that's fair gambling.

 

Who cares, changes are already arriving. Embrace the inevitable)

[AerinPierce]

Another person who doesn't understand why the Nerf is coming.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/167441-the-perfect-way-to-nerf-nova/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/149170-nova-nerf-solution/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/184116-nova-nerf-suggestion/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/171594-nova-needs-nerfing/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/141384-not-just-another-nerf-nova-thread/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/152515-nova-molecular-prime-nerf/

 

To put it simply, the nerf is coming because Molecular Prime steals so many low level kills (of course anyone who's played this game past 30 minutes in a T3S would know it ends there).  Removing the slow effect, as you have suggested, will put no end to the kill-stealing-rage and we will likely be revisiting this "Nova Nerf" topic again in a couple months.  Not to mention that this will create a whole new rage from veteran players who rely on Molecular Prime primarily as a debuff in late-game content.

 

To me, the solution is simple:  Remove the explosions, force the player base to actually USE Antimatter Drop, because that IS her nuke.  Molecular Prime can then continue to be a great debuff, without stealing all the low-level kills.

Why does everyone care about getting the kills so much, they don't matter at all even in the slightest as long as your all working towards the same goal your all getting the rewards/experience, so kills are not cutting it for me come up with a legit excuse and then we'll do this again.

[Tesseract_The_Pariah]

Why does everyone care about getting the kills so much, they don't matter at all even in the slightest as long as your all working towards the same goal your all getting the rewards/experience, so kills are not cutting it for me come up with a legit excuse and then we'll do this again.

It's because Nova leaves nothing to kill.  She leaves nothing, for anyone.  She makes the game trivial.

Nerf the damage.

[(PSN)MoriartyHaaaiii]

So basically I'll be running stretch and overextended to be a douchebag now?

 

Werent people already doing this? MPrime + max efficiency + max range = Max #$&(%

[WarSoldier21]

Um Could you guys look at Null Star, i mean its pretty useless, if you nerf one of her power, you could buff the other ones or something.

Hell yea.  Null star is a S#&$ty power. At least add a explosion buff to it or something.

[SoulEchelon]

Not sure why people keep saying Null Star is bad. Obviously it's not meant to be heavily damaging - it's meant to be a close-mid range CC against enemies that get too close to Nova, since y'know...she's paper thin?

 

Null star gives a 100% stun chance on anything it hits (that I know of). I use it all the time and am protected on all sides because of it. Not everything needs to explode and/or do 200k damage per hit, guys.

[Treebear2]

Why does everyone care about getting the kills so much, they don't matter at all even in the slightest as long as your all working towards the same goal your all getting the rewards/experience, so kills are not cutting it for me come up with a legit excuse and then we'll do this again.

 

That is entirely your opinion.  I am of the opinion that my enjoyment is derived from active participation in a fight, given frames and weapons that are appropriate for their level.  That participation can come in the form of damage, CC, or team utility.  Once a Nova  hits a maximum of level 7, she can trivialize a lot of content (and teammates, for that matter) by using MPrime.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Treebear2