Balance 2.0 - The Cost Of Power

[notionphil]

I see you still have hope. Something that I've already lost. Nevertheless a good read. +1

 

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It needs to be done NOW. This week or next week. Not later. Because now we have 150~ish guns. Imagine if DEvs realized that they need balancing when there will be 300 weapons in the game...

 

Thanks for the feedback. I can be a skeptic at times, but I do still have hope based on the incremental progress we're seeing. The biggest frustrations to me are:

 

-lack of playable content/depth: painfully obvious

-lack of challenge: again

-lack of balance: contributes directly to the other two

 

Without balance, all content will be trivialized. Without balance, all challenge will be overstepped. This is another reason why balance must happen now - it's lack will devalue anything else that DE creates. And as you mention, with the constant flow of material content, now is even more imperative.

 

This is why I decided to address balance now. DE has shown their earnest intent for balance (hopefully) in their recent Frame tweaks and as a Nyx main, I see a slow, steady but positive agenda.

[Liminal]

Finally finished reading this. I think the xp bonus from Part 3 would work great with what we've heard about Focus.

[CBAROG]

"I read it all and now I feel smart". +1 OP. Great ideas. That's some feedback. Too bad Balance 2.0 isn't even soon or around the corner. It's on another planet.

[Xylia]

Uh, Volt... for all of the creative stuff you post, I think you missed a very critical point:

 

The Balance in Warframe is being ruined by Mods, not by the Weapons.

 

Until we fix the issue where most weapons can one-shot most mobs (not counting Endless Game Modes and Tier3 of course) with the right mods, we're never going to have a game that feels "Balanced".

 

In your prologue, you said "Nothing is Overpowered" ..... you're right, in the weapon department.

 

However, when you take a pistol that does 100 damage a shot, stick full Serration, Multishot x2, Element, Status, and bump that up to 5000+ damage a shot, then yes... mods are very overpowered.

 

Combat will never "feel right" in Warframe when you can take a pistol into Pluto and proceed to roflstomp everything in the mission if you forma'd the gun a few times and put a potato in it.

 

The Mods are simply ridiculous. They need toned down. Then, once we've toned the mods down, and removed the huge importance of "MOAR DAMAGE!" mods, and made mods so that they actually MODify the behavior of your weapon instead of just adding MOAR DAMAGE, THEN we can worry about rebalancing weapons around the idea that mods MODify behavior, NOT simply add "MOAR DAMAGE!".

Edited May 20, 2014 by Xylia

[DoomFruit]

This would get my lovely Penta nerfed, butcher my Latron Prime and end with a bat taken to the kneecaps of my Marelok (which kills the crap out of everything even with zero Forma).

 

But y'know what? I don't care. I love this idea. I want a reason to pull out (and re-craft!) a single Magnus and go Dirty Harry on some Grineer. But only, *only* after the enemy infinite scaling ends. I don't want our guns getting pulled down and leaving us with nothing to handle the high level enemies.

[SnaleKing]

This is simply stellar. If DE was only going to read one thread on these forums, I would hope it's this one.

[Paradoxbomb]

Uh, Volt... for all of the creative stuff you post, I think you missed a very critical point:

 

The Balance in Warframe is being ruined by Mods, not by the Weapons.

 

Until we fix the issue where most weapons can one-shot most mobs (not counting Endless Game Modes and Tier3 of course) with the right mods, we're never going to have a game that feels "Balanced".

 

In your prologue, you said "Nothing is Overpowered" ..... you're right, in the weapon department.

 

However, when you take a pistol that does 100 damage a shot, stick full Serration, Multishot x2, Element, Status, and bump that up to 5000+ damage a shot, then yes... mods are very overpowered.

 

Combat will never "feel right" in Warframe when you can take a pistol into Pluto and proceed to roflstomp everything in the mission if you forma'd the gun a few times and put a potato in it.

 

The Mods are simply ridiculous. They need toned down. Then, once we've toned the mods down, and removed the huge importance of "MOAR DAMAGE!" mods, and made mods so that they actually MODify the behavior of your weapon instead of just adding MOAR DAMAGE, THEN we can worry about rebalancing weapons around the idea that mods MODify behavior, NOT simply add "MOAR DAMAGE!".

 

I think that they're aware of that (I'll admit I was expecting this thread to discuss that issue as well) but even with mods notwithstanding, you can't deny that there are some weapons that are just flat out superior to every other weapon in their class, and most of the time there isn't even any kind of restriction to acquiring these "end-game" tier weapons. So this thread does still make a valid point about weapon balance, although the Mod System is definitely the bigger culprit due to it's RNG nature leading to a lack of stable progression between players, and such a heavy focus on raw damage limiting player choices. Both issues should be addressed.

 

Also Notionphil is the one who posted this, I think you meant to address him or both Volt and him.

Edited May 20, 2014 by Paradoxbomb

[neKroMancer]

I like some of the concepts but I believe that Weaponsmith should be the player, not DE.

 

I believe that trait should be adjustable by player through leveling/crafting and not predetermined by DE. Weapon with higher damage (+30% of average rank DPS) should possess less trait point and one with lower damage should have more trait point. Doing so will allow player to adjust trait as they see fit while keeping everything in relative effectiveness. Negative trait gives you more trait point, positive trait consumes it. 

 

Off topic though, about player as weaponsmith - A rather old idea.

 

I believe that DE has been neglecting crafting system which has a lot of potential. We always have premade weapons, buy/research/collect part of premade weapon is one major part that restrict Warframe's replayability. Should we be able to craft our own weapon based on 'parts' of the weapon? Take one example, Borderlands RNG determines or creates a gun based on existing parts from each 'brand' in the game. Giving this system into Warframe will make our weapon choices extraordinarily large without creating new guns every week!

 

Tier system will come to play when player choose which part to create a gun. If you want to make mastery rank 4 weapon with rank5 barrel (or power chamber/reactor whatever part that gives you damage) then you have to pick some rank 3 part to compensate (perhaps longer reload, less spare ammo, or poorer accuracy?). Doing so will allow us to craft our own weapon.  

 

Where do these parts drop? Replace useless mods like Warframe's power and pointless utility (maglev, intruder, elemental resistance mod, etc.) with these weapon part. Sell them for a rather large amount of credit/reasonable platinum in the market in case some of us have bad luck with RNG. 

 

Premade will still have a place as both template and cosmetic (like transmogrification) unlock. 

 

Unlikely but fun idea.

[notionphil]

Uh, Volt... for all of the creative stuff you post, I think you missed a very critical point:

 

The Balance in Warframe is being ruined by Mods, not by the Weapons.

 

Until we fix the issue where most weapons can one-shot most mobs (not counting Endless Game Modes and Tier3 of course) with the right mods, we're never going to have a game that feels "Balanced".

 

In your prologue, you said "Nothing is Overpowered" ..... you're right, in the weapon department.

 

However, when you take a pistol that does 100 damage a shot, stick full Serration, Multishot x2, Element, Status, and bump that up to 5000+ damage a shot, then yes... mods are very overpowered.

 

Combat will never "feel right" in Warframe when you can take a pistol into Pluto and proceed to roflstomp everything in the mission if you forma'd the gun a few times and put a potato in it.

 

The Mods are simply ridiculous. They need toned down. Then, once we've toned the mods down, and removed the huge importance of "MOAR DAMAGE!" mods, and made mods so that they actually MODify the behavior of your weapon instead of just adding MOAR DAMAGE, THEN we can worry about rebalancing weapons around the idea that mods MODify behavior, NOT simply add "MOAR DAMAGE!".

 

Volt contributed a significant chunk of content and help shaped the idea but I'll take the blame for this one.

 

Yes, due to mod scaling, our weapons get out of hand compared to the content we are facing. However, there are two types of balance at play here.

 

1) External Balance (aka Player versus Environmental Balance)

 

2) Internal Balance (aka Weapon vs Weapon balance, or Frame vs Frame Balance)

 

This document is about Internal balance, though it does touch on external balance briefly in section (Rewards of Discipline - aka self limiting power). Why? Because without internal balance, there is no way to create external balance.

 

If (in an outdated example) Trinity is always invincible, but other frames are not, how can we design content that will be balanced towards all groups/players?

 

If one T3 player has a 20K DPS gun, and another has a 5K DPS gun (with no other offset factors), how can we design an enemy that both can handle?

 

Once those disparities are addressed, and we have baselines in place for what a party should be able to do Internally - we can now appropriately shape the External. DE has started taking steps towards this.

 

Invuln ults are getting nerfed, new enemies are being added, mastery rank is being observed by DE, and also importantly, quests are being added.

 

When I say "Nothing is Overpowered", taken Externally...it depends on what it's up against :)

 

So we can hope that with quests designed as 'endgame' content...we will see a legitimate environmental counterweight for a 5000 damage a shot pistol. That would lead to External balance.

[notionphil]

I like some of the concepts but I believe that Weaponsmith should be the player, not DE.

 

---

 

Unlikely but fun idea.

 

:)

 

 

If this thread sees any traction, I have another one coming about crafting (and epic mods).

 

See, once a baseline is created for a weapon tier, crafting and permanently changing Tier of that weapon becomes a legitimate thing. Imagine taking a Lato and making it a Tier 3 weapon by adding traits...

 

 

[Tigersight]

Very nice idea, and very well written. +1

[Xylia]

Blah, sorry, some reason I saw Volt's name on the post and thought Volt posted this. Whoops.

 

My bad.

 

And yes, some weapons are vastly superior, and it seems like these days, they keep releasing "OMG" weapons, and the older weapons are still sitting, crying in a corner like the nerfed Lato.

 

Was there REALLY a reason to Nerf the Lato? As if newbies didn't have it hard enough, they had to nerf the only decent weapon they DID have. Newbies were chucking their MK1 and pulling out their Lato for entire missions... not because the Lato was overpowered, but because the MK1 was vastly underpowered.

 

But the fact that DE nerfed the Lato tells me that they don't have all that great of an understanding of weapon balance whatsoever....

[Arunafeltz]

Blah, sorry, some reason I saw Volt's name on the post and thought Volt posted this. Whoops.

Was there REALLY a reason to Nerf the Lato? As if newbies didn't have it hard enough, they had to nerf the only decent weapon they DID have. Newbies were chucking their MK1 and pulling out their Lato for entire missions... not because the Lato was overpowered, but because the MK1 was vastly underpowered.

 

But the fact that DE nerfed the Lato tells me that they don't have all that great of an understanding of weapon balance whatsoever....

Please don't remind me of the Lato nerf I am still seething

[Aggh]

I like the traits idea since it could add back in an element of lootiness that this game lost after u7.  Making their stats a bit more random (say having grades of traits) would be more to my liking.  Maybe have weapon specific blueprints for adding different traits to a weapon?  Or have weapon modification (not mod, this could be the extra slot like we have for stances/auras) blue prints with slots for traits so that people would have loot on loot?

 

Example: Looting  up a rare culling austere tigris modification with two slots for additional traits. 

 

This could also be tied in with the focus system to upgrade traits or be part of a leveling system to use more powerful modifications.

 

edit: could see this as building on the precedent of the dragon nikana only with lootiness added.  Would be cool if traits added visual changes to weapons too.

Edited May 21, 2014 by Aggh

[Balduron04]

for your dps numbers, are you saying that the max tier dps is for a fully catalyzed and forma'd weapon, or for that weapon when it hits level 30 and has basic mods and is being used without improvement?

 

There's a large difference in dps between an unimproved lvl 30 and a fully improved lvl 30 weapon. could you make a balance rubric that keeps weapons balanced at both levels?

[notionphil]

for your dps numbers, are you saying that the max tier dps is for a fully catalyzed and forma'd weapon, or for that weapon when it hits level 30 and has basic mods and is being used without improvement?

 

There's a large difference in dps between an unimproved lvl 30 and a fully improved lvl 30 weapon. could you make a balance rubric that keeps weapons balanced at both levels?

 

The DPS numbers included would be for maxed, cat/forma builds.

 

However, you infer a good point - weapons which require more improvement to attain their maxed potential could slightly affect their position in a tier.

[Dairkrinn]

All those +1s to give, so little time.

You sir have my respect (at least for actually taking the times to write all of this down...) for these valid points.

I'm currently reading the post by Xylia (https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/234311-the-elephant-in-the-room-mods/) and you are both pointing out 1 different layer of the problem, which makes a complete examination of the problem. Hats off to you.

Really hope all of this will be heard.

[notionphil]

All those +1s to give, so little time.

You sir have my respect (at least for actually taking the times to write all of this down...) for these valid points.

I'm currently reading the post by Xylia (https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/234311-the-elephant-in-the-room-mods/) and you are both pointing out 1 different layer of the problem, which makes a complete examination of the problem. Hats off to you.

Really hope all of this will be heard.

 

I've seen posts from DE that they are aware of some (intra) balance issues with mods and are saving the issue for a single balance pass. This may not narrow the progression field as Xylia suggests however.

[Paradoxbomb]

Was there REALLY a reason to Nerf the Lato? As if newbies didn't have it hard enough, they had to nerf the only decent weapon they DID have. Newbies were chucking their MK1 and pulling out their Lato for entire missions... not because the Lato was overpowered, but because the MK1 was vastly underpowered.

 

But the fact that DE nerfed the Lato tells me that they don't have all that great of an understanding of weapon balance whatsoever....

 

I hate to agree with this, but they really must have no idea what they're doing if they thought nerfing the Lato was a good idea. It was in a good spot where it was before, slower than the MK-1 and therefore not good against crowds, but it rewarded accuracy through headshots and was ammo economic, as a semi-auto should be. Now it's both slower and weaker than the MK-1 and it's one of the few semi-auto pistols that's just as poor ammo-wise as the MK-1 simply because of how much damage it takes to kill a single target.

 

I really hope they buff the damage back up to around 18-20, right now it's just absurdly weak even for a starter weapon, and there was a time I actually had fun using it.

[Monolake]

I like the red headers!  

 

will take me forever to read, see you next week! j/k

[DoesItWorksJay]

I'm loving this, I fully support your ideas OP. Specially the weapon traits. c:

[notionphil]

I hate to agree with this, but they really must have no idea what they're doing if they thought nerfing the Lato was a good idea. It was in a good spot where it was before, slower than the MK-1 and therefore not good against crowds, but it rewarded accuracy through headshots and was ammo economic, as a semi-auto should be. Now it's both slower and weaker than the MK-1 and it's one of the few semi-auto pistols that's just as poor ammo-wise as the MK-1 simply because of how much damage it takes to kill a single target.

 

I really hope they buff the damage back up to around 18-20, right now it's just absurdly weak even for a starter weapon, and there was a time I actually had fun using it.

 

Yes that was an odd decision on DE's part. The only thing I can imagine is DE wanted newbies to quickly eschew the Lato for a 'real' gun AKA the "wooden sword" you start with in most games.

 

I will say that the 10 or so most recent guns have been pretty reasonable in their balance, many using trait like mechanisms to reduce their combat efficacy and mitigate their high DPS. Incredibly poor single target ammo effeciency on amprex. Very slow time to acquire targets on Angstrum. Low clip and tendency to overkill on the Sybaris.

 

These weapons are all powerful, but arguably balanced against other top tier weapons. One of the key parts of the Traits system is that it can be retroactively applied, so the 100+ weapons that already exist, many of which are near direct upgrades/downgrades could be brought in line and made unique as well.

[Paradoxbomb]

Yes that was an odd decision on DE's part. The only thing I can imagine is DE wanted newbies to quickly eschew the Lato for a 'real' gun AKA the "wooden sword" you start with in most games.

 

I will say that the 10 or so most recent guns have been pretty reasonable in their balance, many using trait like mechanisms to reduce their combat efficacy and mitigate their high DPS. Incredibly poor single target ammo effeciency on amprex. Very slow time to acquire targets on Angstrum. Low clip and tendency to overkill on the Sybaris.

 

These weapons are all powerful, but arguably balanced against other top tier weapons. One of the key parts of the Traits system is that it can be retroactively applied, so the 100+ weapons that already exist, many of which are near direct upgrades/downgrades could be brought in line and made unique as well.

 

That just makes no sense to me though, even if it is your "wooden sword" gun the game still revolves around maxing out weapons in order to improve your Mastery Rank, so making a weapon so horrendously bad that leveling it up is physically painful is like shooting the player in the foot and telling them to do the exact opposite of what they should be doing. So the starter weapon angle is still inexcusable to me, at least for this game.

 

Though looking at the more recent weapons I do have to agree that they are balanced by their mechanics in a way. While leveling up the Angstrum I couldn't help but think to myself "this is actually a pretty balanced explosive gun, slow as all hell and inaccurate but with a ton of damage". So it's nice to see they're at least attempting to make the newer stuff not completely outrank their predecessors, and hopefully after reading the OP they'll get around to fixing the older stuff as well.

Edited May 21, 2014 by Paradoxbomb

[Bichunmoo]

I like this would really like if this was added to the game ! +1

[Rikage]

+1 to the epic effort you put in it