How Come Threads About Mod Balancing Don't Gain Much Attention Compared To Other Balancing Threads?

[Sasquatchias]

Maybe its just me, but whenever I see a thread about Mod balancing it never seems to gain too much attention compared to other balancing threads. 

 

Whenever I see one the most amount of pages it normally reaches is like 5 or so pages in a span of 1-2 weeks, while a thread about balancing a Warframe will reach about 10 pages in 3 or so days.

[PsychedelicSnake]

Because people.

[VegetableBasket]

I haven't even seen threads about balancing mods in GD, but tons exist about frames...

DE pls remove serration and hornet strike, make elemental mods convert instead of add damage, make multishot use more ammo.

Edited May 22, 2014 by VegetableBasket

[Marshall]

so, you are opening a topic about thread attention balance?

 

an answer to your question might be that mods have specific values and purposes and people are tired of listening to every single suggestion

[AuroraSonicBoom]

Because every frame has access to the same mods, minus some event mods and that damned Primed Chamber. You're able to switch out your mods with a few clicks, which isn't possible with frames and weapons. You wouldn't hear anyone complain about the vanguard helmet being super op if everybody could use it. There's also the fact that people identify with their frames and want them all to be equally useful. Since that's not the case and people refuse to go play another playstyle that's more effective to progress you see them coming here to complain.

 

Also, the community has been pretty tolerant of power creep in mod form, which turned out to hurt build variety alot, but when it really dawned on most people(corrupted mods) we already had sacrificed half of our mod slots to pure damage upgrades and so they more or less accepted it.

 

tl;dr: You can switch out our build to what's considered "best" in a few clicks, but the frames you play you feel more attached to.

[Firetempest]

I haven't even seen threads about balancing mods in GD, but tons exist about frames...

DE pls remove serration and hornet strike, make elemental mods convert instead of add damage, make multishot use more ammo.

Problem is they already shot themselves in the foot with their initial mod design of best of all trades mods being flat out better than specialized mods and the amount of backlash for changing these completely "necessary" mods. That's why the convoluted damage 2.0 with tons of armor types to still have specialization and atleast solve one problem, rainbow builds.

Im just betting the backlash even with legendary core reparation is too much of a risk for business.

 

Though now they are doing a adaption and slow planned obsolescence of older common mods, to rares for late game?

Like the +chance status effect mods. So now the plan is distinct tiers of mods with the acknowledgement you will never use some again once you outgrow them? Which wouldn't be so horrible if they would actually stick with one plan. And actually lined up mod drops in logical planet order instead of dropping noob lvl mods such as Intruder in the void.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Firetempest

[RoboDoge]

Hmm, imagine outrage from people that maxed their rare and uncommon mods r10 mods. All that time collecting cores and credits, and DE decides to simply remove that.

 

 

I would be pretty much disappointed if DE nerfs some r10 mods. No matter Legendary Cores, because whats the point of them if r10 mods will be nerfed.

[SmokinDevil]

It's apparent how frame powers are all over the place than it is to see every single weapon and trying to balance the mods around them.

[AuroraSonicBoom]

Hmm, imagine outrage from people that maxed their rare and uncommon mods r10 mods. All that time collecting cores and credits, and DE decides to simply remove that.

 

 

I would be pretty much disappointed if DE nerfs some r10 mods. No matter Legendary Cores, because whats the point of them if r10 mods will be nerfed.

 

DE knows how many common/uncomon/rare cores make up a rank 10 Serration. They could easily run a script to redistribute the invested cores if a nerf is coming. That's what they should've done with Steel Charge as well, but then LCores happened...

[the1Blind]

Mod balance is a more abstract concept. It is more important IMO than warframe balance but people identify with their frames and not their mods.

Thus you get emotional reactions for the one kind and not so much for the other.

 

In short: "because people"

[Firetempest]

I would be pretty much disappointed if DE nerfs some r10 mods. No matter Legendary Cores, because whats the point of them if r10 mods will be nerfed.

The point would be changing what mods are r10. Specialized mods such as Every Bane,Cleanse,Expel,Smite would be r10. And good for everything such as Serration, Hornet would be r5 and lower %.

Then maybe even making a difference between pure element, and elements that can be mixed.

So Pure element (any element, like pure viral) r10 mod adds damage but only one pure can be on a weapon. Mixable r5 elements mods work like the current elements but instead convert a % of existing damage.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Firetempest

[Eeirail]

So this is the new bandwagon?

Well, alright I guess...

 

I think some mods should be tweaked but outright removal of a mod is just idiocy at this point.

[VegetableBasket]

That's why the convoluted damage 2.0 with tons of armor types to still have specialization and atleast solve one problem, rainbow builds.

Really because I run 4 elements, multishot, flat damage, and fire rate on all my weapons before and after damage 2.0. Procs are cool and did add a nice dynamic to the game, but it did not fix mandatory mods or rainbow builds whatsoever. Instead of rainbow+damage or crit, we now have rainbow+damage, crit, and status weapons. But damage 2.0 didn't encourage anyone to use a reload speed or clip size mod.

The only weapons I've seen justify a non-dps mod is the angstrum because its mechanics are actually interesting and dynamic based on ammo capacity.

[RoboDoge]

DE knows how many common/uncomon/rare cores make up a rank 10 Serration. They could easily run a script to redistribute the invested cores if a nerf is coming. That's what they should've done with Steel Charge as well, but then LCores happened...

But whats the point of LCores if you dont have anything valuable to use them on? If i use them on r10 that are left, i would be afraid if that r10 is getting a nerf.

 

As Steve said in one of older Devstreams, they were thinking about changing mod values, but in the end they realized that is almost impossible feat because of time and resources invested in them.

[AuroraSonicBoom]

But damage 2.0 didn't encourage anyone to use a reload speed or clip size mod.

 

Wait, was that one of their stated goals? I never heard them mention that. The main issue damage 2.0 was supposed to solve was the armor ignoring damage weapons being so superior to everything else, which it successfully did on a very basic level at least. I never expected damage 2.0 to address the issue of more weapons becoming useful in their own niches or incentivising players to use utility mods instead of damage ones.

 

 

 

But whats the point of LCores if you dont have anything valuable to use them on? If i use them on r10 that are left, i would be afraid if that r10 is getting a nerf.

 

As Steve said in one of older Devstreams, they were thinking about changing mod values, but in the end they realized that is almost impossible feat because of time and resources invested in them.

 

I wasn't arguing in favor of LCores, if that's what you got out of my post, but indirectly bemoaned the way they solved the Steel Charge issue by using them as a refund. They could have just as well given you the appropriate amount of rank 3 cores depending on how high you fused the mod.

 

I honestly wouldn't care if all the rank ten mods were turned into rank 5s without refund, as that is a perfect example of what a beta change can entail. I was under the impression of the actual values of their effects being modified. not how much grinding it is to max them out.

Edited May 22, 2014 by AuroraSonicBoom

[VegetableBasket]

Wait, was that one of their stated goals? I never heard them mention that. The main issue damage 2.0 was supposed to solve was the armor ignoring damage weapons being so superior to everything else, which it successfully did on a very basic level at least. I never expected damage 2.0 to address the issue of more weapons becoming useful in their own niches or incentivising players to use utility mods instead of damage ones.

 

No they didn't specifically say that, but they said it would "fix rainbow builds, crit builds, and damage builds" but using 4 elements, %damage, and crit still gives you the best weapon in most cases besides status based weapons. I kind of figured we would pick one or two elements we liked and free up some mod slots for more utility oriented mods instead of just having our four elements do something slightly different sometimes. I don't know. It did balance weapons overall which is good but the fact that most weapons have 6-8 mods that are in the category "you are dumb not to put this on your weapon" makes me sad.

I used to play Blacklight Retribution, and that game has a lot of weapon customization, I'm used to making actual choices, clip size versus movement speed, accuracy versus damage, recoil versus reload speed, hipfire versus ADS. I'd rather use the mod system to personalize my weapon rather than make it good, or useable late game, or whatever. I had a little bit of hope damage 2.0 would do that for me, but, unfortunately, as you probably already know, DE. If element mods converted physical to elemental damage, if serration and hornet strike were removed, and if recoil was cranked up and scaled with damage or fire rate to some degree, there would be more interesting weapon builds, but since it's pretty hard to miss in warframe you can just stack damage damage damage and you win.

Edited May 22, 2014 by VegetableBasket

[Firetempest]

Really because I run 4 elements, multishot, flat damage, and fire rate on all my weapons before and after damage 2.0. Procs are cool and did add a nice dynamic to the game, but it did not fix mandatory mods or rainbow builds whatsoever. Instead of rainbow+damage or crit, we now have rainbow+damage, crit, and status weapons. But damage 2.0 didn't encourage anyone to use a reload speed or clip size mod.

The only weapons I've seen justify a non-dps mod is the angstrum because its mechanics are actually interesting and dynamic based on ammo capacity.

Rainbow as in, every element also procs at almost every hit, so everything was frozen,AND on fire, AND being electrocuted. Remember that? Rainbow today is only 2 elements. So I think a large part of the ridiculousness was at-least fixed. Though outright adding damage I think is still a problem.

[Endrance]

Basacly because mods just take some time, and effort, to max them of course.

 

But a warframe, you spend Formas on it, to use the mods. Mods that you can use in every frame you have, while a forma spent of a frame, is stuck on the frame.

 

Btw, about mods, check out this topic about melee mods and give your opinions.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/235172-melee-underpowered-mods-comparison/#entry2725119

[RoboDoge]

Rainbow as in, every element also procs at almost every hit, so everything was frozen,AND on fire, AND being electrocuted. Remember that? Rainbow today is only 2 elements. So I think a large part of the ridiculousness was at-least fixed. Though outright adding damage I think is still a problem.

Mechanic of the game are problem, not the damage or damage procs. DE made game overly complicated with all mobs types, their resistances and weaknesses.

 

There is same issue with melee 2.0. Didnt changed much because mobs still react to damage as they did with old melee system.

[AuroraSonicBoom]

No they didn't specifically say that, but they said it would "fix rainbow builds" but using 4 elements still gives you the best weapon in most cases where the weapon isn't crit or status based. I kind of figured we would pick one or two elements we liked and free up some mod slots for more utility oriented mods instead of just having our four elements do something slightly different sometimes.

 

Heh, yeah.... didn't really turn out like that, did it?

 

Back in the day when there was no forma, polarizations were indirectly rewarding players for choosing from a certain set of mods, which to a small degree helped build variety, but these days with damage mods being present in pretty much all polarisations and forma, that little bit of diversity was lost.

 

We need something new, but Scott unfortunately said that he doesn't want to segregate mods into essential and utilities, so our options of what to do about it are pretty limited.

[VegetableBasket]

Heh, yeah.... didn't really turn out like that, did it?

 

Back in the day when there was no forma, polarizations were indirectly rewarding players for choosing from a certain set of mods, which to a small degree helped build variety, but these days with damage mods being present in pretty much all polarisations and forma, that little bit of diversity was lost.

 

We need something new, but Scott unfortunately said that he doesn't want to segregate mods into essential and utilities, so our options of what to do about it are pretty limited.

Steve said he's not afraid to take a jackhammer to the game so let's hope they can compromise...

I want mods 1.0 back. So much better. I'm going to post a thread sometime soon about how it could properly be re-integrated into the current game but I don't feel like getting into it right now. It could work.

Edited May 22, 2014 by VegetableBasket

[(PSN)Pengu_Imperialus]

They probably just need to re tune the values. Serrations would still be r10 but the top number would be lower. Or possibly have damage type mods change a percentage of the total damage to that damage type. Then you would being using the type mods to gain a damage type and not stack them. Damage output vs enemy health is really off.

[Rakosta_Kai]

Beats me...

 

I made one of those a few weeks ago and was practically run off the forum.

[AuroraSonicBoom]

Steve said he's not afraid to take a jackhammer to the game so let's hope they can compromise...

I want mods 1.0 back.

 

Maybe... (minus the rng stats for mods)

 

I guess the only two paths to solve the issue without reworking the whole system at the moment are to either modify the game to give those utility mods some necessity(ex. ice levels slowing reload time by 50%) or work with the mods themselves to make the desirable.

 

Whatever they do, I hope they won't make those mods viable by allowing players to progress even faster than they already are, but instead create debuffs that slow player progress down which these utility mods are able to counter. But that would be haaaard to do.

[WhisperByte]

Kinda relevant: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/234311-the-elephant-in-the-room-mods/

 

And yeah. Majority Vocal minority of playerbase have almost allergic reaction to anything that lowers their numbers and it seems that people think that with proper mod balancing enemies would still stay the same bulletsponges that they are now. Of course DEvs' reluctance to actually balance the game (as in commit to balance instead of nerfing few frames/weapons that community screams loudest about) is not helping the situation either.

 

Edit: Odin, my English is pretty broken today...

Edited May 22, 2014 by WhisperByte