Enhanced Melee Channeling - Innate And Unique Channeling Properties

[Casardis]

This topic doesn't aim to address some other big concerns that Melee 2.0 still has, but it does try to give some suggestions in terms of balancing and weapon variety though, in relation to channeling. This is something I've wrote several times around, but now I decided to compile it into a topic of its own.

 

I'd also like to bring attention to this archived topic by ForumSmurf, which some of those elements could transfer over to Melee Channeling.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/96511-spirit-of-the-prime-weapon-passives/

 

Vheraun also made some similar suggestions for thrown-type weapons:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/241269-suggestionthrown-weapon-channeling-overhaul/

 

Lastly, before we begin, this is a continuation of a "generic Warframe ability" I made as a submission in the design council. I can't quote from it, so I will paste it down in the spoiler tag. I will also link to the original post for those who have access to the DC.

 

This was posted in February, which means much before we were even introduced to the channeling system in previews, but you may notice a lot of similarities. Coincidence or not, I leave that to you since it's not the point, as I'm only trying to further my argument that channeling should have been much more expanded, and still should be.

Original post: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/185963-generic-warframe-ability-mods-idea-submissions/page-5#entry2166619

 

With Melee 2.0 coming, I was thinking of an Ultimate that can expand on it.

 

Void Fissure

 

Tenno mastery of the blades and Warframe energy imbues their weapon with the Void's power.

 

All melee attacks deal extra damage, and each strike sends waves of pure energy in the direction of the attack. Depending on the move and weapon-type, the energy waves will be different. Along with its own proc-types, it will take on additional elements, and their procs, of your weapon.

 

A slide attack with Orthos will send a radial energy wave of 6m (from the tip of the weapon) with 100% bleeding proc. Volleys of regular Fang Prime attacks with Molten Impact will throw small flaming crescent forward in rapid fire. A charge attack with a Blast-elemental Fragor will send a 100% Blast proc wave in an arc, throwing enemies away while dealing high damage.

 

It can be used with other powers, but certain ones will get additional benefits, particularly Excalibur. Slash Dash will have energy blades around the user that gives additional damage and range, and at the end of the dash, Exca sends them forward in a short, arc-like distance, damaging anything in its path.

 

I thought I would spoil Exca a bit since he's the first Warframe, the "blade expert" in a sense, and the fact that he doesn't have as much going on right now.

 

- Cost: 10-13 capacity points ; 75 energy to activate

- Duration: As long as you have energy (unaffected by power duration, but power efficiency makes the drain slower)

- Range: Varied on attack and weapon type (not affected by power range)

- Strength: Dependant on the weapon (not affected by power strength, but affected by all melee damage mods)

- Damage type: Dependant on weapon

- Only works when in Melee mode

 

__________________________________________

 

Every weapon has the same Channeling Efficiency and Channeling Damage. No weapons have unique channeling effects and need to rely on mods to do that, which are mostly behind a grind wall anyway. There's so much potential to Channeling, but since it's part of a foundation called Melee 2.0, the surface has been barely scratched. A direct damage upgrade with cool effects doesn't bring anything fresh to the table.

 

Additionally, too often do we see weapons being direct upgrades of each other, barely with any differences (Dual Ether - Dual Kama - Nami Skyla ; Gram - Galatine ; Nikana - Dragon Nikana). Having different innate channeling effect will increase their differences and maybe put some of them equal with each other if modded well.

 

Therefore, I'm suggesting some changes to add variety through innate powers that don't rely on RNG (for the most part).

Here are things they can be added to weapon channel (not only stances, but some weapons themselves). Also, these suggestions don't have to be restricted to channeling; it could be innate effects like Heat blades' flame waves:

 

- Channel Damage and Efficiency (needs to add them to the UI as well) 

 

- Crit Damage and Crit Chance 

 

- Attack speed (highly dependant on the weapon animations, such as how Decisive Judgment is slower, not a direct attack speed upgrade) 

 

- Reach (some stance combo may require channeling to be active, and it will do a visible energy aura that extends the reach in some attacks) 

 

- Status chance increased (melee weapons barely have any) 

 

- Knockdown and ragdoll attacks for utility 

 

- Multihit attacks (not multi-target, but rather hitting mutliple times a single target, which they do with certain stance and can easily add this for other attacks) 

--- Multihit attacks will also make faster combo meter build  - Faster combo counter build up  - Higher combo multiplier damage 

 

- More elemental additions (Heat Swords' flame wave finisher; something like a corrosive/poison finisher could be added to Scoliac for instance, since that weapon had Corrosive charge attack before). 

 

- Charge attacks (and charge attack combos) for heavy weapons 

--- As suggested by someone on a different topic, charge attacks don't have to be super powerful hits. It might have a slightly more powerful multiplier, but will have 100% utility. A Fragor, for example, will knock enemies back instantly with a single channeled charge attack; Orthos will do a guaranteed Bleed proc on slide attacks, etc.

 

 

Using the above suggestions, I'll try to give some examples of what channeling can do, while following a somewhat logical path from the weapons' lore and descriptions, as well as taking some liberties. You'll notice I give more flavors to Heavy Weapons, but that's because they're arguably the worse weapons in the game right now, with lots of potential unexplored (I have a topic about that here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/215199-heavy-weight-weapons-viability/)

 

Remember, they are quick EXAMPLES, just so you have an idea of the concept I'm suggesting. Also, the text in bold italic is added by me.

 

Dual Ether

The Ether Sword cuts so cleanly that it was considered by the Tenno to be a more humane weapon for 'cleansing' infested allies. Channel your inner power to split anything in your path.

 

- Channeling will make the weapon ignore 25% enemy armor

- Channeling attacks against Infested units will give 2 combo counters per hit

 

Hate

Hate is a scythe with a cruel blade, wielded by The Stalker. While channeled, the bloodlust of its wielder influences the effectiveness of its strikes.

 

- Attacks with the Hate while channeling will give 1.5 combo counter on each strike

- Combo multipliers are +1X instead of +.5X

- Will increase attack speed by 10% if a critical strike is landed while channeling, for 5 seconds

 

Scoliac

The Scoliac Whip is a nasty parasitic growth of sinew and bone. When the Tenno channels their energy through its flesh, it creates a corroding acid that can melt armor.

 

- Channeling attacks will add an additional Corrosive elemental on the weapon

-- This is affected by the weapon's base damage, increased by mods, and stacks with modded Corrosive elements

- Channeled slam attacks have 100% Toxin proc AoE, proportionate to the slam attack's base damage

- Regular, stealth and ground finishers with a channeled Scoliac will do 100% Corrosive proc

 

Dragon Nikana

 

The Dragon Nikana is forged from ancient Tenno steel. This is a master's weapon, only the most worthy of Tenno may wield it. Although its blade appears weaker than the regular Nikana, a master's focus and training can bring its true potential.

 

Weapon changes

- Base damage decreased from 85 to 40, while regular Nikana's base damage is increased to 60

- Crit chance increased to 20%

- Attack speed increased to 1.1

- Combo multiplier is decreased to +.25X instead of +.5x

- Combo counter milestones happen every multiples of two, instead of three, reaching multipliers faster.

 

Channel changes

- Base Channel damage is +200%

- Base Channel drain is 2 energy per strike, but 15 energy (affected by channel efficiency) will be taken on a channel kill

- Channeling increases crit chance to 25%

 

Reasoning

- From lore perspective, this is the weapon of the masters and only wielded by them. I wanted to push that further by making it so only they're able to wield them to their full potential, since they have mastery over their own energy channeling and weapon fighting.

 

--The master Tenno is one with the sword, and therefore, even what appears as a dull blade will cut through steel. The ancient Tenno steel used to forge it reacts to the Tenno's energy, and will show its true potential when the Tenno has mastered their own.

 

-- It's to give that image of "single focused strike/each strike counts" (inspired by iaido/iaijutsu) for the master's sword, while the apprentice, who hasn't mastered it yet, prefers a sharp blade that they can use to cut multiple times.

 

- From gameplay perspective, a Mastery 8 player will most likely have strong mods for Warframe and weapons, Orokin Catalysts and Reactors to use, and so on. Therefore, they're able to mod accordingly to reach the full potential of the blade.

 

- If you keep your combo counter long enough, you'll reach multipliers way faster than other weapons, but the multiplier themselves won't give you as much damage in order to balance it, due to its innate high channel potential. This is also to give regular attacks with the melee weapon a bit more potential without relying on channeling.

 

- In terms of spamming channeling attack, it will be the weapon that drains the least per hit. However, if you mindlessly use channeling attacks, you will drain your energy really fast, so you need to time your channeling instead of simply holding it indefinitely. If that's more your playstyle, the regular Nikana is a better choice, since it benefits more from "mindless slashing."

 

-- If you fight against heavy units that takes more than one hit to kill, a channel attack might either one-hit it, or if they're lucky and it doesn't, you can time it right by deactivating channeling to deal the final blow, making you waste less energy.

 

-- This is to encourage more timing attacks and skilled/reflex-based game instead of mashing E with channeling. If that's more your playstyle, the regular Nikana is a better choice.

 

-- Quick maths: new Nikana channel attack with max Pressure Point + max Killing Blow will deal 277.2 damage;

new Dragon Nikana with same setup will deal 387.2 damage, which is strong but still LESS than current Dragon Nikana with same setup (411.4 damage).

I hope my math is correct.

 

Fragor

A large two-handed hammer, the Fragor requires great strength to wield, but impacts with enough force to send groups of enemies tumbling. Unleash its seismic powers through channeling.

 

- Base channel damage is +75%

- Base Channel drain is 10 energy per strikes, instead of 5

- Each channeling attack with Fragor, when hitting a surface (whether enemy, floor or wall), will create an AoE stagger quake that does half the Fragor's damage in Impact.

-- All elemental and damage mods will affect the AoE quake's damage output, but it won't offer its proc nor its elemental multipliers

- Channeling unlocks new charge attack combos (all stances, including no-stance-mod, have its own charge attacks)

-- These combos have a 1.5x damage multiplier by default

-- The charge attacks, when connected, will knock enemies away in ragdoll (like all ragdolls, enemies can't be ragdoll-spammed until they recover from their first).

-- The AoE stagger still applies to these charge attacks

-- Charge attacks can't do regular proc/elemental procs, but will use their damage

- Channeled Slam/Jump attacks will create a larger AoE (7m instead of 5m) and does 2x damage (including direct hit).

 

Magistar

The Magistar Mace wields justice and truth in the form of bone crushing blows. When channeling, the experienced Tenno can inflict serious internal bleeding with precise strikes.

 

- Base Channel damage is +75%

- Each strike with the Magistar has a flat 40% chance of causing Bleed proc (internal bleeding).

- Channeling unlocks new charge attack combos (all stances, including no-stance-mod, have its own charge attacks)

-- These combos have a 2x damage multiplier by default

-- Charge attacks can't do regular proc/elemental procs, but will use their damage

-- The charge attacks, when connected, will cause 100% Puncture Proc (the mace pierces their armor and breaks their bones, making them weaker). This can stack with its innate chance of Bleed proc when channeling.

- Channeled Slam/Jump attacks do 1.5x damage (including direct hit), but range isn't increased.

-- Direct hit to an enemy with this attack will cause 50% bleed and puncture proc, as the strike causes both internal bleeding and crushes their bones.

 

Gram

The heavy two-handed sword known as Gram requires great strength to wield, but is notorious for its splitting power. Its blade is connected to the wielder's energy force, and will become a legendary sword when channeled.

 

- Base Channel damage is +80%

- Base Channel drain is 15 energy per strikes, instead of 5

- Attack speed +20% (stacks with attack speed mods)

- Proc chance increased to 30% (stacks with status chance mods)

- When channeling, the reach extends by +60% with an energy aura (same color as the blade), highly visible.

-- This stacks with Reach mod, but increases from Gram's default reach and not the channeled reach, for a maximum of 4.4m

- Each successful strikes with the Gram creates an energy pulse that deals 1/3 of Gram's channel damage (doesn't affect the target, only surrounding enemies)

-- All elemental and damage mods will affect the pulse damage output AND type (meaning elemental multipliers will be transferred, unlike the Fragor's quake)

-- The pulse has a flat 10% Impact proc (stagger) along with the regular 30% proc, useful for CC

 

 

Galatine

With massive charged power and the ability to hit up to five foes in a single swing, the Galatine sword is the heavy artillery of melee weapons. Despite being hard to wield, the Tenno's able to unleash high critical strikes when focusing their energy.

 

- Base channel damage is +40% instead of +50% (lower than average)

- Base channel drain is 10 per hit instead of 5.

- Any attacks with the Galatine while channeling will have a flat 50% Bleed proc, along with regular proc chance

-- Channeled slide attacks have 75% Bleed proc

- Crit chance increased to 20% when channeling (affected by crit mods)

- Channeling unlocks new charge attack combos

-- These combos don't have additional multipliers (besides the base +50% from channeling)

-- Crit chance is increased to 30% with these combos (still affected by crit mods)

-- Flat 25% Bleed proc with each charged strikes

-- Charge attacks can't do regular proc/elemental procs, but will use their damage

Edited June 11, 2014 by Casardis

[immolator1001]

While some of the specific ideas seem OP, I like the overall idea.

[Casardis]

While some of the specific ideas seem OP, I like the overall idea.

 

I might have gone overboard here, but if it's related to the heavy weapons, there's no denying that going "sword alone" doesn't give much high reward for the high risk, unlike when using things like Dragon Nikana which is just simply ridiculously powerful, or Dakra Prime with Crimson Dervish.

 

Going melee only and channeling should have some great benefits, especially how heavy weapons are simply bad and have no compensation for their slow speed. Making them more like CC weapons (Gram and Fragor suggestions), debuffers (Magistar) or big damager (Galatine) is one way to start balancing and making them actually act differently from fast weapons.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Casardis

[immolator1001]

I might have gone overboard here, but if it's related to the heavy weapons, there's no denying that going "sword alone" doesn't give much high reward for the high risk, unlike when using things like Dragon Nikana which is just simply ridiculously powerful, or Dakra Prime with Crimson Dervish.

I agree most heavy weapon seem to be lacking and like the only good combo is where you just keep spinning around.

[Casardis]

I agree most heavy weapon seem to be lacking and like the only good combo is where you just keep spinning around.

 

And ironically, the combo you're talking about (Broken Bull from Cleaving Whirlwind stance) is good because it's very similar to Melee 1.0's charge attack. That alone is a concern to me XD

Edited May 22, 2014 by Casardis

[Kuhrasu]

Before any of that, it would be a good idea to let us toggle melee channeling, instead of having to hold...

[Casardis]

Before any of that, it would be a good idea to let us toggle melee channeling, instead of having to hold...

 

Though it's a legitimate concern, the toggle is something many people asked for already. I don't have to talk about it further here. This is besides the point of the current topic.

 

This topic doesn't aim to address some other big concerns that Melee 2.0 still has

Edited May 22, 2014 by Casardis

[Endrance]

Before any of that, it would be a good idea to let us toggle melee channeling, instead of having to hold...

If you know what you're doing, you can "toogle" it :3

 

On topic, i like the idea, because it gives you more diversity in what to choose, you don't go just for the one that has higher base damage or something.

 

For example, Hate with the multiplier would rock with smoke screen

[DarknightK]

Yes, this would make more melee weapons viable, instead of just having "oh, the Dragon Nikana does X better than the original Nikana."

 

I mean, this game is eventually about progression in gear, but a lot of weapons fall off pretty quickly due to a new weapon being released that outpowers the old one.

 

 

I sold my Reaper Prime, even with its same exact stats as my Hate (but with faster attack speed) just because Hate was harder to acquire, and it looks pretty awesome. There is literally no stat-wise influence I used in deciding whether or not to keep it. We need more of this, in terms of gameplay (channeling for one, would be a good start).

[yles9056]

I was just thinking something similar.

 

Yes, we should have more variety in channeling.

 

For example:

-Slow weapons tend to have higher channel dmg to compensate their speed.

-Some weapons should add elemental dmg when channeling. (Scoliac adds corrosive dmg, Heat Sword adds heat dmg, etc.)

-Some weapons increase stats like speed, range, etc when channeling.

-Some weapons forced bleed proc or other status effects when channeling.

Edited May 22, 2014 by yles9056

[notionphil]

I absolutely love the idea of weapon specific channel properties

[Casardis]

Added two new weapon examples.

 

Scoliac

The Scoliac Whip is a nasty parasitic growth of sinew and bone. When the Tenno channels their energy through its flesh, it creates a corroding acid that can melt armor.

 

- Channeling attacks will add an additional Corrosive elemental on the weapon

-- This is affected by the weapon's base damage, increased by mods, and stacks with modded Corrosive elements

- Channeled slam attacks have 100% Toxin proc AoE, proportionate to the slam attack's base damage

- Regular, stealth and ground finishers with a channeled Scoliac will do 100% Corrosive proc

 

Dragon Nikana

 

The Dragon Nikana is forged from ancient Tenno steel. This is a master's weapon, only the most worthy of Tenno may wield it. Although its blade appears weaker than the regular Nikana, a master's focus and training can bring its true potential.

 

Weapon changes

- Base damage decreased from 85 to 40, while regular Nikana's base damage is increased to 60

- Crit chance increased to 20%

- Attack speed increased to 1.1

- Combo multiplier is decreased to +.25X instead of +.5x

- Combo counter milestones happen every multiples of two, instead of three, reaching multipliers faster.

 

Channel changes

- Base Channel damage is +200%

- Base Channel drain is 2 energy per strike, but 15 energy (affected by channel efficiency) will be taken on a channel kill

- Channeling increases crit chance to 25%

 

Reasoning

- From lore perspective, this is the weapon of the masters and only wielded by them. I wanted to push that further by making it so only they're able to wield them to their full potential, since they have mastery over their own energy channeling and weapon fighting.

 

--The master Tenno is one with the sword, and therefore, even what appears as a dull blade will cut through steel. The ancient Tenno steel used to forge it reacts to the Tenno's energy, and will show its true potential when the Tenno has mastered their own.

 

-- It's to give that image of "single focused strike/each strike counts" for the master's sword, while the apprentice, who hasn't mastered it yet, prefers a sharp blade that they can use to cut multiple times.

 

- From gameplay perspective, a Mastery 8 player will most likely have strong mods for Warframe and weapons, Orokin Catalysts and Reactors to use, and so on. Therefore, they're able to mod accordingly to reach the full potential of the blade.

 

- If you keep your combo counter long enough, you'll reach multipliers way faster than other weapons, but the multiplier themselves won't give you as much damage in order to balance it, due to its innate high channel potential. This is also to give regular attacks with the melee weapon a bit more potential without relying on channeling.

 

- In terms of spamming channeling attack, it will be the weapon that drains the least per hit. However, if you mindlessly use channeling attacks, you will drain your energy really fast, so you need to time your channeling instead of simply holding it indefinitely. If that's more your playstyle, the regular Nikana is a better choice, since it benefits more from "mindless slashing."

 

-- Quick maths: new Nikana channel attack with max Pressure Point + max Killing Blow will deal 277.2 damage;

new Dragon Nikana with same setup will deal 387.2 damage, which is strong but still LESS than current Dragon Nikana with same setup (411.4 damage).

I hope my math is correct.

Edited May 23, 2014 by Casardis

[Spectreblade]

The Dragon Nikana is forged from ancient Tenno steel. This is a master's weapon, only the most worthy of Tenno may wield it. Although its blade appears weaker than the regular Nikana

 

 

HERESY!

[BerelHawdos]

If you touch my Dragon Nikana with your grubby little hands I will find you and I will kill you slowly and painfully.

[Casardis]

Looks like none of you two even read my reasoning to understand what I was going for here.

If you did, and if shallow design choice of a direct upgrade without any account in balance and weapon diversity is your idea of "good" I won't even bother arguing.

Edited May 23, 2014 by Casardis

[__Kanade__]

It would be cool for weapons to have different channeling properties, but right now, channeling doesn't have to be used from start to finish, It's not a weapons main purpose.

 

I don't use channeling often except when facing high level heavy units and I have my Dragon Nikana specifically built for channeling damage so that I'm not struggling with heavies. It's already doing 220% channeling damage, so there is no need for an extra 200% channeling damage passive bonus, that would be giving one of the better "endgame" melee weapons too much power and melee also needs to have its limits which is a necessary evil.

 

And you would need to factor in the channeling changes with certain frames, for example I'm using it with Excaliber who currently has a melee/stamina build minus Flow and Streamline since they don't fit with my current build, I'm already careful with using channeling with him since I'm only working with a measely 150 energy and it drains down to 0 faster than I can recover more energy when I try to use channeling to specifically target heavies but with so many mobs my energy drains fast and if your talking per strike and not per kill with the channgeling cost changed to 25, my energy would drain x2 as fast, but again, only if I was trying to target an individual heavy who's knee deep in mobs of light/medium armored enemies who don't need channeling to kill faster, but then again, a slash dash would solve that problem, I wouldn't need to worry about wasting tons of energy trying to get to the heavy alone.

 

 

 

You still need to consider the flaws in this idea and for some frames with lower energy, this feature just wouldn't work and many builds would have to be rebuilt just to compensate for the channeling costs like the Dragon Nikana. I can't use Streamling and Flow cause then I would have to get rid of 2 of my powers and I already have a 3rd one left out to make room for my stamina mods as well as Reflection and still need the space for my Redirection Vitality and Steel Fiber since I'm using the Arkane Pendragon helm, so I need to make up for the armor loss.

Edited May 23, 2014 by __Kanade__

[Casardis]

Thanks Kanade to actually give some feedback/criticism to continue a discussion. I'm not saying this sarcastically; I'm honest.

 

This is going to be a wall of text, so you'll have to click on the spoilers to read it (so I don't clutter the page too much).

 

 

You still need to consider the flaws in this idea and for some frames with lower energy, this feature just wouldn't work and many builds would have to be rebuilt just to compensate for the channeling costs like the Dragon Nikana. I can't use Streamling and Flow cause then I would have to get rid of 2 of my powers and I already have a 3rd one left out to make room for my stamina mods as well as Reflection and still need the space for my Redirection Vitality and Steel Fiber since I'm using the Arkane Pendragon helm, so I need to make up for the armor loss.

 

Which is why these aren't suggestion to apply directly; they are suggestion of ideas of how the channeling stats can work differently, instead of straight upgrades (which doesn't have any depth to that). If people will at least try to discuss how some of the stats I put may be too much, too little, their flaws, and so on, then we can discuss on that. But if people are just going to overreact when I mention their favorite weapon and say "nope" without even considering the balance issues I'm bringing, that's just insulting.

 

Also, on the topic of "rebuilding it." That's one of the meanings of beta; it's for the Devs to take risky changes while us, players, will give feedback/accommodate to the changes. We as beta players should always be ready for modling, just like what happened with Nova, Trinity, and so on. Players having to rebuild their stuff and reconsider their own meta is no good reason for Devs to avoid making changes.

 

I've personally already adapted to Trinity, and in fact I have more fun playing as her now, but still giving feedback on her. As for Nova, I had to rebuild her differently with power duration as a focus, yet that didn't give me any issues. Formas fall from the skies nowadays anyway, as long as you do Voids (not even needed to do T3; some T1 and T2 give them, and could easily be solo'ed).

 

The changes I suggest will give more reason to rebuild Nikana and compare it to Dragon, and see which one fits which playstyle more. They will have different purposes with their own strong/weak points, despite both being katanas of the same line.

 

I don't use channeling often except when facing high level heavy units and I have my Dragon Nikana specifically built for channeling damage so that I'm not struggling with heavies. It's already doing 220% channeling damage, so there is no need for an extra 200% channeling damage passive bonus, that would be giving one of the better "endgame" melee weapons too much power and melee also needs to have its limits which is a necessary evil.

 

This is why I suggested the buff for the regular Nikana, so that regular Nikana is a better weapon for Quick Melee and direct damage, with decent damage even with channeling. I haven't gone further with a Nikana buff because, again as I mentioned above, this isn't what this topic is about; this is a topic about adding innate powers to weapon channeling that isn't single-minded. I'm not here to try and balance the innate brokeness of Dragon Nikana compared to other weapons (it's Galatine 1.0 all over again, maybe worse due to its speed and stamina cost).

 

If you're more into quick powerful melee with decent damage when channeling, then you can choose the regular Nikana, which will serve that meta better. Dragon Nikana will have a different meta which benefits from using channeling and timing it. This way, both weapons are just as viable, and there's more reason to decide between one over the other, while having more struggle to do so. Currently, other than for the looks, no one in their logical mind would choose Nikana over D.Nikana.

 

Also, it seems you've pointed one thing (how it gives 220% with killing blow) but didn't consider the rest. If you haven't read the math I did, a build with Pressure Point and Killing Blow is stronger with the current Dragon Nikana than my suggested ideas. In order to keep its potential about as powerful as current D.Nikana, since I reduced its base damage, I made the channeling damage way higher. Reread the math, or try to do it, if necessary.

 

That's me slipping a bit of my ideas on Dragon Nikana balancing, since I think that this weapon's stats is ridiculous (same for Dakra with Crimson Dervish only). Due to those aspects, there's not much reason to use other melee weapons in high level than these two, because current meta is always "go for best DPS." I personally think that people don't want their D.Nikana to change because they can pretty much one hit anything in sight without even channeling, or do super heavy damage super quickly even against high leveled mobs (instant gratification).

 

This brings to other issues in the game, such as enemy AI, enemy scaling, melee weapon mobility and stuff, but again, this topic doesn't aim to address some other big concerns that Melee 2.0 still has, but it does try to give some suggestions in terms of balancing and weapon variety though, in relation to channeling.

 

In other words, though my suggestion may bring a few issues into play, it just reveals the core concerns already present, and we as players should preferably not cater to those issues to make them core elements of the game, or else we'll build a broken house around a broken foundation. But again, I'm reminding you that all my suggestions are subject to change and discussions, especially since they're just quick examples of what my actual suggestion may do, and shouldn't be singled out as what this topic is about.

 

And you would need to factor in the channeling changes with certain frames, for example I'm using it with Excaliber who currently has a melee/stamina build minus Flow and Streamline since they don't fit with my current build, I'm already careful with using channeling with him since I'm only working with a measely 150 energy and it drains down to 0 faster than I can recover more energy when I try to use channeling to specifically target heavies but with so many mobs my energy drains fast and if your talking per strike and not per kill with the channgeling cost changed to 25, my energy would drain x2 as fast, but again, only if I was trying to target an individual heavy who's knee deep in mobs of light/medium armored enemies who don't need channeling to kill faster, but then again, a slash dash would solve that problem, I wouldn't need to worry about wasting tons of energy trying to get to the heavy alone.

 

I come back again to regular Nikana. What I would suggest for regular Nikana is to act similar to current Dragon Nikana without being as ridiculously powerful (the start of that was to increase damage to 60). In that case, the new regular Nikana would fit your gameplay style better, since it will offer about the same strength as current D.Nikana without the heavy energy drain.

 

Against many mobs, you know you would drain your energy too fast if you just mindlessly channel, so you'll have to avoid that and time it better, or like you said, use your powers. You have no reason to be single-minded, especially with a powerful weapon in hand that requires better timing to use. Slash Dash to take care of the smaller mobs along with a few regular attacks, then use channel against the heavy.

 

There's also Focus Energy and Reflex Coil to be used for a cap of 80% efficiency, but I do understand that the drain numbers might be too high, so I might reduce them all a little bit in my examples. Also, the idea of draining per kill instead also sounds good, and gave me a few ideas which I'll edit it down right now.

 

EDIT: New suggestion numbers for D.Nikana:

Weapon changes

- Combo counter milestones happen every multiples of two, instead of three, reaching multipliers faster. (multipliers is still +.25X though)

- Crit chance increased to 20%

- Attack speed increased to 1.1

 

Channel changes

- Base Channel drain is 2 energy per strike, but 15 energy (affected by channel efficiency) will be taken on a channel kill

- Channeling increases crit chance to 25% instead of 15%

 

Reasoning

- If you keep your combo counter long enough, you'll reach multipliers way faster than other weapons, but the multiplier themselves won't give you as much damage in order to balance it, due to its innate high channel potential. This is also to give regular attacks with the melee weapon a bit more potential without relying on channeling.

 

- It will technically be the weapon that drains the least per hit. However, if you mindlessly use channeling attacks, you will drain your energy really fast due to its strength, so you need to time your channeling instead of simply holding it indefinitely.

 

-- If you fight against heavy units that takes more than one hit to kill, a channel attack might either one-hit it, or if they're lucky and it doesn't, you can time it right by deactivating channeling to deal the final blow, making you waste less energy.

 

-- This is to encourage more timing attacks and skilled/reflex-based game instead of mashing E. If that's more your playstyle, the regular Nikana is a better choice.

 

Ultimately, my suggested difference between D.Nikana and Nikana is to make one a channeling-damage weapon (we have none of that since channeling has no depth currently), while regular Nikana is a powerful all-rounder, better for a jack of all trades instead of a master of focused, single strikes (inspired by iaido/iaijutsu in concept) that will guarantee a kill when done right.

 

You said "right now, channeling doesn't have to be used from start to finish, It's not a weapons main purpose," which adds well to my point on how melee channeling has little depth currently. You don't do that because there's no purpose in doing so. I propose changes on that.

 

True, it might sound like it's more restrictive to use D.Nikana, but necessary sacrifices need to be made for great power (unlike all those band-aid stamina mods), so with the changes, at least you'll think about it before reaching that power, unlike current meta where there's no drawbacks (no, farming isn't a drawback of the weapon).

Edited May 23, 2014 by Casardis

[Casardis]

Bump.

Added something at the beginning of the first post:

 

For the "generic Warframe ability" suggestions topic in the DC, dating a few months back, I had made a submission. I can't quote from it, so I will paste it down in the spoiler tag. I will also link to the original post for those who have access to the DC.

 

This was posted in February, which means much before we were even introduced to the channeling system in previews, but you may notice a lot of similarities. Coincidence or not, I leave that to you since it's not the point, as I'm only trying to further my argument that channeling should have been much more expanded, and still should be.

Original post: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/185963-generic-warframe-ability-mods-idea-submissions/page-5#entry2166619

 

With Melee 2.0 coming, I was thinking of an Ultimate that can expand on it.

 

Void Fissure

 

Tenno mastery of the blades and Warframe energy imbues their weapon with the Void's power.

 

All melee attacks deal extra damage, and each strike sends waves of pure energy in the direction of the attack. Depending on the move and weapon-type, the energy waves will be different. Along with its own proc-types, it will take on additional elements, and their procs, of your weapon.

 

A slide attack with Orthos will send a radial energy wave of 6m (from the tip of the weapon) with 100% bleeding proc. Volleys of regular Fang Prime attacks with Molten Impact will throw small flaming crescent forward in rapid fire. A charge attack with a Blast-elemental Fragor will send a 100% Blast proc wave in an arc, throwing enemies away while dealing high damage.

 

It can be used with other powers, but certain ones will get additional benefits, particularly Excalibur. Slash Dash will have energy blades around the user that gives additional damage and range, and at the end of the dash, Exca sends them forward in a short, arc-like distance, damaging anything in its path.

 

I thought I would spoil Exca a bit since he's the first Warframe, the "blade expert" in a sense, and the fact that he doesn't have as much going on right now.

 

- Cost: 10-13 capacity points ; 75 energy to activate

- Duration: As long as you have energy (unaffected by power duration, but power efficiency makes the drain slower)

- Range: Varied on attack and weapon type (not affected by power range)

- Strength: Dependant on the weapon (not affected by power strength, but affected by all melee damage mods)

- Damage type: Dependant on weapon

- Only works when in Melee mode

Edited May 28, 2014 by Casardis

[DeadScream]

I like it a lot. 

I would also love to see the warframe having an influence on the effects of channeling. 

 

Like using channeling with Volt could add electric damage.

[Casardis]

I like it a lot. 

I would also love to see the warframe having an influence on the effects of channeling. 

 

Like using channeling with Volt could add electric damage.

 

This could be interesting actually. Not all Warframe may have this advantage, but that might be a good thing for caster frames, and reflect on their theme/role.

 

There could even be a unique, new weapon whose channeling has this specific property that matches Warframes. Some may be tricky to conceptualize, while elementals are easy to do, but with enough brainstorming and selection, ideas can be picked out.

[Kashiki]

Before any of that, it would be a good idea to let us toggle melee channeling, instead of having to hold...

 

Press channel button with melee equipped, open chat, close chat. You now have your toggled channeling.

[Casardis]

Press channel button with melee equipped, open chat, close chat. You now have your toggled channeling.

 

I think Kuhrasu know about that already.  I assume they're just wondering why it's taking so long to get an official toggle option. However, since DE did say they will implement this in a recent post, I'm assuming it would come either today, or next week.

Edited May 28, 2014 by Casardis

[Casardis]

Bump.

[Vheraun]

This really doesn't have enough responses.

 

Some stats may need tweaking, but the idea is awesome. A truly unique feel to every and any weapon, I like it. Sadly, it will be very hard to implement something like this, taking into account the massive overhaul and art assets that would be needed.

[Casardis]

Thanks for your comment. Much appreciated!

 

Sadly, it will be very hard to implement something like this, taking into account the massive overhaul and art assets that would be needed.

 

It's important to know that very hard is not impossible. I believe in DE for being creative enough to do it. All they really need is focus.

 

Melee 2.0 promised a lot, and they said the premise of Channeling was what makes the melee system "Warframe" as opposed to "DMC-like" (by the way it's nothing close to DMC-like). However, if I have to be completely honest and blunt about it, at its current stage, the only reason it "belongs to Warframe" to me is because:

- It uses energy

- It uses a lot of bandaid mods from what could have been unique properties of weapons when channeling (life stealing, etc)

- It uses RNG (parry system) as opposed to a timed, skill-based mechanics (it had the potential for that)

 

So as "hard" as such concepts may be to be implemented, I felt this level of depth should have been present since day 1, and if it's not present after day 1 of U13, at least day 30.

 

We are now nearing day 60 of U13 and there are STILL no major tweaks, additions, balancing and changes to Melee 2.0, even though it's still in a foundation stage. The most they did was to add new combo strings that didn't solve any of its core issues, and can't as long as they don't tackle them directly.

Edited June 4, 2014 by Casardis