Penta In Conclave

[MattHarrigan]

 

REFLECTION HAS BEEN DISABLED IN CONCLAVE (a week ago?)

 

This thread is about Penta in PvP!

 

Why are people who don't ever play Conclaves even posting here?

 

If DE seriously wants to introduce even more PvP content, they're probably gave this some thought, but here once again... There might be no way around rebalancing specific weapons solely for PvP.

[Azawarau]

It's DE that has forgotten about this fact, not us ;)

Its a little of both really

 

It's just not. Sprinting speed of an Excalibur with max Rush mod < Penta Grenade. Unless you're using a sniper rifle from max range, about 40 meters or so, "catching them first" is not a valid option. 

Well the travel time of a penta grenade is certainly lower than that of a bullet

 

Keep in mind i said mostly

 

The damage and AoE need to drop but its not like ogris/penta = instant win every time right now

 

Thats reserved for certain frame powers still

[Mafarr1co]

As someone who goes out of his way to forma weapons just for conclve usage, i absolutely have to agree that Penta is op in conclave.

 

Why? 

 

Firstly, since you can control its detonation, suiceding is a small ocurrance , and this allows for midair explosions, somethign that if you have gotten used to its radius, allows you to copter endlessly while shotting a penta shot midair and then get a kill. Somethign that doesnt allow for any response whatsoever from your oponent, other than dodging. But since you dint have to have to aim in the 1st palce with penta, you are constantly nearly impossible tohit by someone using say, even a soma, while being in an offensive position yourself.

 

Is range a problem for penta users? Kinda, but that means someone using a penta HEAVILY modifies your playstyle, and a good copterer can overcome this issue.

 

Some ppl have mentioneed angstrum, ogris and castanas and compared them to this weapon.

Ogris doesnt rly compare because of charge time(doesnt allow for hovering copter tactics) and big suicide risk.

I can somewhat agree to castanas, but since they dont bounce(yes its a huge positive to penta, allows for you to only aim in a  direction and not verticaly too) and they have less than half the radius, they are actualy not that much of a big issue.

Angstrum might have a better charge time than ogris, and so allowfor some coptering strats but it goes straight in a line , has a less radius and a delay when you do fire it. the spread form multishot sometimes doesnt rly help, either. Yes you can make a no multishot one shot angstrum but then the aoe is very small making even less "OP".

 

I know half my post was off topic, i just felt that i needed to explain why i felt penta is above pretty much every other explive weapon, and thus is OP

[DrBorris]

Penta is nothing, it is the Ignis that I fear.

[.Re-light.]

You've obviously never used a Glaive... Or reach... Or ground slam knock downs... Or anything that involves not hitting them from where they're blocking. 

 

 

   I have used almost all in Conclave. I got reach on all my melee always. To think they need to hold block for old reflection to work (reflex guard) tells me you have much less expirience there then I do. While reflection epidemic lasted, I have tried like most, almost all ways to counter it. Explosives before it was nerfed was the only reliable way to counter it, as a result I got very decent with Penta.

 

     I had a blast yesterday with one Zeph with Ogris. We chased eachother all over, explosions everywhere.. He kept bombing me, while I kept trying to get him mid flight koptering. It sounded like WAR, but it was fun for both sides, good times. Never missed not having Ripline equiped more then in that fight.. At least 4,5 ppl joined in those 10-15 minutes and left right after without playing a match.

 

   This is Warframe. You should be able to use whatever you find fun. Penta isn't a problem. The problem is that you can never counter a good PvP-er with Penta, except if you got one yourself. The problem is that we DON'T have  menus where you could disable things you don't want to play with if hosting a public match.

 

Not a single weapon have been "balanced" yet for PvP, only some mods and abilities and I think it's not needed anyway.

 

         From the number of people coming to conclaves with bows, I know that bow only fights would be just 1 of many possible, very attractive fight setups that would make a lot more people have fun there, since their very first conclave match..

 

 

   As for Penta as it is now.. Mafarr1co got it all spot on, nothing more to add.

Edited June 7, 2014 by ReLight13

[AlienOvermind]

All AoE-weapons should get huge boost in conclave rating. They should be like 800-1000 without mods.

[.Talia.]

In my opinion, all AoE explosive weapons should have their AoE range (So called "Blast Radius") reduced by a couple meters. 

I mean, a Penta with Firestorm have a AoE radius of ridiculous 6.2m. I don't even know what to say, its simply not a weapon balanced for PvP, its a weapon made for PvE like other have pointed out.

 

That's the biggest issue with them, and that's why good PvPers consider AoE weapons to be cheap and "skilless", because you can kill a guy that's not even near where you aim. Doesn't matter if he is a floor below, behind walls, or in the middle of a copter fleeing. And there is no blocking it. Did i mention it is insta-kill?

 

Have to be balanced for PvP before the Dark Sectors PvP comes out. If they don't want to touch the damage of this weapon class, then at least the AoE Balst Radius must be nerfed down by a couple of meters.

Edited June 7, 2014 by RexSol

[Arunafeltz]

Penta is nothing, it is the Ignis that I fear.

Mmm? Wasn't the Ignis like, so pre Damage 2.0?

[HoakinBlackforge]

How to balance pvp:

 

Warframes: Only abilities.

 

Weapons: No mods

 

Easy.

[.Talia.]

How to balance pvp:

 

Warframes: Only abilities.

 

Weapons: No mods

 

Easy.

 

That's called Venus, Jupiter and Saturn Conclaves... Funny, for the lolz with your friends and clan mates from time to time...

 

But this would ruin the PvP if it were a rule for every Conclave. Some of us like the twitch reflex fast paced PvP game play that we have with fully modded gear and Warframes.

Edited June 27, 2014 by RexSol

[Cwierz]

But this would ruin the PvP if it were a rule for every Conclave. Some of us like the twitch reflex fast paced PvP game play that we have with fully modded gear and Warframes.

Thats not exactly great for PvP either. While enjoyable to the ones who have maxed gear and good rigs to support the game might enjoy it for a while, it will ultimately lack the skill progression needed for a truly good pvp enviroment.

There is nothing inherently wrong with twitch reflex gameplay either, so don't misunderstand that. I am more commenting about how the state of pvp at the moment falls a very far cry from being something that competitive gamers will enjoy and casual gamers will stay with.

[.Talia.]

Thats not exactly great for PvP either. While enjoyable to the ones who have maxed gear and good rigs to support the game might enjoy it for a while, it will ultimately lack the skill progression needed for a truly good pvp enviroment.

There is nothing inherently wrong with twitch reflex gameplay either, so don't misunderstand that. I am more commenting about how the state of pvp at the moment falls a very far cry from being something that competitive gamers will enjoy and casual gamers will stay with.

 

In my opinion, as an avid PvP player, the PvP is fine. Just needs some balancing with some broken stuff like Quick Thinking, Reflex Guard, Black Energy Invisibility/Smoke Screen, Hysteria, Bladestorm, and Explosive Weapons. I love the intense fast paced twitch reflex game play style of Warframe PvP, that's the reason why i still play the game after 1400+ in-game hours (Not Steam). I am very competitive btw, and i enjoy it. Casual players should stick with the lower Conclaves like Venus, Saturn and Jupiter, where you can't bring any mods. About the rigs and connection to support a fluid gameplay, that's not the Warframe's fault.

 

Players complain so much about the TTK in Warframe, but just compare it to CoD or Titanfall, Warframe's TTK is actually on par with these other popular shooters (Even higher). The problem is that Warframe PvE players are so used to their godly powers, staying 1h in a mission without dying, wiping out entire maps with the press of a button, that they can't accept dying so fast in a PvP match. Specially when playing against a Conclave Veteran, someone that is capable of ending a match in a few seconds, i know that must be frustrating for players used to the PvE. They enter a match, get rotflstomped, rage quit and hate PvP forever, saying that Warframe is not for PvP. I respectfully disagree with that opinion, i think this game is great for PvP and have so much potential.

Edited June 27, 2014 by RexSol

[.Re-light.]

...it will ultimately lack the skill progression needed for a truly good pvp enviroment.

There is nothing inherently wrong with twitch reflex gameplay either, so don't misunderstand that. I am more commenting about how the state of pvp at the moment falls a very far cry from being something that competitive gamers will enjoy and casual gamers will stay with.

 

  The skill progression part. I disagree with your statement. With a little fixing to broken things that Rexsol already pointed out, the learning curve in conclaves is HUGE. The state it is in, despite those things is very enjoyable. Reflection was nerfed which means we are heard. Hopefully in due time, other things will get fixed too.

 

       All about practise and Disciprine!

Edited June 27, 2014 by ReLight13

[Cwierz]

  The skill progression part. I disagree with your statement. With a little fixing to broken things that Rexsol already pointed out, the learning curve in conclaves is HUGE. The state it is in, despite those things is very enjoyable. Reflection was nerfed which means we are heard. Hopefully in due time, other things will get fixed too.

 

       All about practise and Disciprine!

The learning curve is tiny. Skill progression in this game is small, don't confuse gear progression with skill progression.

If you want a game with skill progression, Tribes Ascend is a good example. What we have now, is an environment where the people with the better rigs, connection, and gear win almost every encounter.  

 

Because this is a twitch reflex style of gameplay, the skill gap is hyper compressed as well. While not necessarily bad, it kills skill progression.

[Gryphticon]

PvP is unbalanced. Use pretty much any supercharged modded weapon and you own in PvP.

[.Re-light.]

The learning curve is tiny. Skill progression in this game is small, don't confuse gear progression with skill progression.

If you want a game with skill progression, Tribes Ascend is a good example. What we have now, is an environment where the people with the better rigs, connection, and gear win almost every encounter.  

 

Because this is a twitch reflex style of gameplay, the skill gap is hyper compressed as well. While not necessarily bad, it kills skill progression.

         We are talking about conclaves. Max gear is understood. You can really tell the difference between someone with a few hundred matches and someone with a few thousand. The difference is huge. If it wasn't like that, if the learning curve is tiny as you say (as it really is in PvE) then someone who played around a bit could have a majestic day and beat the good players.. They might get lucky with a kill here or there, but if they played 100 matches against good guys, on their Day of days (identical connection, gear, machines) those lucky kills would be their only kills.. and it would almost certainly be less then 10, maybe even 5.

 

     I don't play other games so I guess I could be missing your point. It just takes a lot of practise to advance. That practise can be frustrating I admit.

 

        If I see fair play and a guy keeps beating me, I usually stick around and take some mental notes.

 

   Check North America for cleaner games and somewhat better general atitude. (it could be just the fact that most speak english)

[Cwierz]

         We are talking about conclaves. Max gear is understood. You can really tell the difference between someone with a few hundred matches and someone with a few thousand. The difference is huge. If it wasn't like that, if the learning curve is tiny as you say (as it really is in PvE) then someone who played around a bit could have a majestic day and beat the good players.. They might get lucky with a kill here or there, but if they played 100 matches against good guys, on their Day of days (identical connection, gear, machines) those lucky kills would be their only kills.. and it would almost certainly be less then 10, maybe even 5.

 

     I don't play other games so I guess I could be missing your point. It just takes a lot of practise to advance. That practise can be frustrating I admit.

 

        If I see fair play and a guy keeps beating me, I usually stick around and take some mental notes.

 

   Check North America for cleaner games and somewhat better general atitude. (it could be just the fact that most speak english)

Seeing as we come from different game backgrounds you probably don't understand my point.

The skill ceiling of this game isn't as high as you make it out to be. 

 

If you want a shooter that requires more gamesense then warframe, CS or esea competitive tf2.

Something that requires better movement and aiming skills? Tribes.

Something with better melee systems? Blade Symphony (for a 3rd person game) or any traditional fighting game.

 

While this games pvp has potential, the potential it has is severely gimped by gear progression. And at the end of the day, the genre holds it back from reaching its fullest potential. (When I say that I mean it has the potential for both twitch-reflex and traditional shooter gameplay) PvP in warframe needs different gamemodes, and the ability to remove unbalanced power levels out of the equation.

 

While having unique gear may be fun (I don't support removing that aspect), the ability to just be more powerful then another player statistically isn't healthy for a pvp game.