Forget Better Ai - We Need Better Dumb Enemies

[notionphil]

U14 - UPDATE - Mission (almost) Successful!

 

DE has remade the infested in the spirit (and nearly the letter) of our community feedback. Many Infested units have been given "better dumb abilities" that enhance challenge and work together in combos. It's not perfect, its a work in progress but its a massive step forward for making combat in Warframe challenging and interesting.

 

Here's my feedback on it: Better Dumb Enemies: Infested Analysis U14

 

 

I think I've seen one too many "We need better AI" posts on the Forums. Creating "better AI" will do nothing besides waste DE's time, and make our crewmen hesitate 0.1 seconds less before getting riddled with bullets from a Soma.

 

At its core, AI posts are generally about making combat more engaging and challenging...but tend to miss the entire point. Our enemies are fodder because they have no tools - not because they are dumb.

 

OK Smart Guy, You Try Being a Crewman

 

Imagine for a second that you were physically controlling a Corpus Crewman, on a routine patrol. A door opens at the end of the hallway and you see 4 Tenno.

 

.25 seconds later, a gleaming bolt from a Boltor Prime pierces your nearby ally's head. A Penta grenade lands unexploded at your feet. ticking away. You've been Primed to explode on a molecular level by Nova, slowing you by 75% - and making your meager flesh even more likely to give way.

 

And, unbeknownst to you...an invisible Ash is rapidly sliding your way gripping an Orthos Prime.

 

Question: If you were controlling that Corpus Crewman, what would you do?

 

Answer: Die.

 

AI has nothing to do with 99% of our enemies' deaths. Having no viable options is why they die helplessly.

 

Don't Bring a Prova to a Soma Fight

 

All that Crewman can do is run away, take cover, melee, roll, shoot, grenade and hit the alarm. That's ALL he can do. In fact that's all nearly every enemy in Warframe can do. Note how none of those things will help him.

 

He and nearly 90% of all enemies have no ability that will prevent their sudden imminent death the mere millisecond a Tenno wills them out of existence.

 

WTFOMGBBQ (to quote Steve) Why Would DE make the enemies so pointless!?!?

 

Because we're the player, we are 'supposed' to win. Tenno are Warrior Deities! Invoking our wrath on mobs of helpless fodder is a large portion of why WF is fun.

 

Unfortunately, it's also a large portion of why WF is monotonous. You cannot be a victor without a challenge. To truly feel like a warrior deity, one must occasionally have their might tested - and overcome by pure skill or strength of will.

 

And that situation simply doesn't exist in Warframe. The closest we can get is artificial unlimited scaling. *Yawn* for so many reasons, I won't even list them. We don't need all enemies to be powerful. We just need occasional challenges or situations which make us feel "tested" so we can be victorious.

 

Forget Intelligence. Dumb is more reliable.

 

All of the "AI" in the world won't protect a Lancer from a Soma. You know what will? A soma-proof helmet, with a tiiiiny weak spot to keep you on your toes.

 

The Grineer Shield Lancer was one of the best designed enemies in the game (at least before half of our weapons became AoE and punchthrough). Why? Because he was the one enemy in the game that unloading a clip from your [insert weapon name] didn't kill.

 

You actually had to do...something...anything different, to kill him. A power. A jumpkick. Even..gasp...aim at his head! This is what we need. Sure, the new enemy contest winners are incredible and exciting. But if they can be defeated by a burst from your [insert weapon here] - they won't do a SINGLE THING to make you feel more like a warrior deity than you do now.

 

Dumb but Fair. Unfair is never fun.

 

Enemies don't need player-agency removing stunlocks and teleports. They don't need invulnerability phases or randomized elemental weaknesses. All they need are simple and FAIR tools to evade our powers and attacks - and to give us a slight challenge to overcome when we encounter some of them.

 

Some ideas for Dumb (aka easy to execute) abilities. Note, not all enemies would have 'tools'. Some would still be 100% fodder.

 

• Grineer Scorpions could parry our bullets...unless they have thrown their spear
  

   

• Grineer Bombards could have higher damage reduction from the front, .but shooting their ogris could cause an explosion disarming and likely killing them.
  

   

• Corpus tech drones could provide an uber-quick-regenerating shield that effects everyone BUT themselves
  

   

• Infested Ancients Healers could revive themselves from death...unless you hit their dead body with a finisher
  

   

• Corpus Elites could have fast regenerating shields making them nearly invincible, but shooting their helmet off could disable it.
  

   

• Corpus techs could repair destroyed Moas within range of his 'aura'.
   
• Infested Leapers (and other light mobs) should dive out of range of explosive/slow moving weaponry (often, towards the player)
  

   

• Grineer Ballistas should be granted partial cloaking when not shooting.
   
• Railgun Moas could deploy a Volt like shield
  

   

  etc etc...can think of more as needed, or fix these.

 

Press 4 to..."WTF? Crap I died"

 

I said it before, and I'll say it again :P

 

Every faction needs at least one variant of an Elite mob which can either absorb or protect its allies from our ubers and CC. You should see these variants starting in lv 20 or so with a 1% chance of spawning. At level 40 you'd be seeing one every minute or so

 

No need for new complex enemies. Just a simple reskin, with a red tint/name etc. Like an eximus but...uhm...not fodder.

 

A simple example of this:

 

Infested Ancient Guardian (elite ancient healer variant): Whenever any AoE ability hits the Guardian, he pulses a red aura which revives all his allies within it as shadows (they give no XP and don't count towards exterm). He is personally invulnerable to AoE powers (but not direct damage powers).

 

Conclusion (finally:D)

 

The game doesn't have to BE balanced. It just has to FEEL balanced. Enemies don't have to BE intelligent, they just have to FEEL clever. We just need a hint of challenge to feel skillful. Giving some enemies from each faction a few simple tools to survive against the Tenno is enough to truly improve how visceral and dynamic Warframe's combat feels.

 

Selected Thread Feedback and Feelings on Warfame's Combat 

 

emphasis added and +1s redacted (keep em coming pls! but this area is just for ideas)

 

PS - Yes, I'm all for the fixing of AI bugs like the "headless chicken circle dance" the "in-and-out of cover shuffle" and the "ha! you can't see me I'm behind this pebble" issue. Those are bugs, and should be addressed, but honestly don't happen in a majority of enemy interactions...so those alone won't improve combat much - considering the average mobs lifespan is probably less than 1 second after being noticed by a Tenno.

 

 

I've been trying to figure out lately why the Mercenaries mode in Resident Evil 6 wasn't as fun as the one in 4 or 5. And I think the big reason - aside from some other niggling problems - is that there aren't really any "big bads" you have to keep track of

 

--

Anyway, that's kind of the problem Survival has right now. It's an hour or two of chugging along, killing trash until the game decides to spawn an air tank all the way across the map at 20% or until everyone gets bored.

 

 

I personally would like to see some enemies that cloak themselves and are invisible from radar that kind of hide and get the jump on you.

 

Feels sort of lame just jamming through levels without some sort of "oh S#&$" moment happening.

 

 

[Give] the Grineer Butchers a smaller version of the Shield Lancer's shield, and when running towards you they block with it, forcing you to aim at exposed parts and increasing their general survivability. 

 

.....would change the feel of combat so much...

 

DE should absolutly consider to do something like that to fight the monotony of AI and combat in general, because mowing through masses of poor bastards (even eximi) when all you need to do is just keep mindlessly firing at them sure gets boring after a while.

 

...there is no challange (after you acquired enough DPS to just kill them all, regardless of the enemy) and at last no reason to be an incredible battle deity at all.

 

 

 

[-healers should revive enemies, bc healing enemies that get one-shot is meaningless

-toxic need to shoot poison area denial clouds (should grow slowly, with telegraph)

-non head weak spots are SERIOUSLY underused and underrated]

 

You know, I was really excited to play Warframe when I first started downloading it.

 

One thing that caught my attention and made me feel like Warframe was going to me more genuine was the Open Beta Trailer. The moment Lech Kril showed up, my first feeling was that this wasn't just a boss; I thought it was going to be just a regular, heavy type enemy that would've required skill and tactics, and in teams: coordination, to defeat. Jump kicks to stagger, quick dodges to avoid the swings of his hammer, and the use of powers to finally bring him down.

 

---

 

The way it ended up being was disappointing: He was just a simple boss on a far off celestial body, and not even a very hard one at that.

 

Right now, it takes little to no effort to kill, and not to say our enemies need more AI, they just need some form of additional abilities and survivability. Heck, the Lech Kril I thought was just an enemy wasn't necessarily smart, but the trailer expressed it took all four members of the team to coordinate and take him down. And all he did was swing his hammer.

 

 

 

Warframe increasingly feels like a sandbox with no sand.

 

We have SOOO many wonderful toys and tools (guns/frames) to play with, but nothing interesting to use them on.

 

Remember that time that you said "Man, it's so good I had that sniper rifle because...". Yeah that never happened. Or that other time where Vauban's Bounce really saved the day when Bastille/Vortex couldn't? Yah no.

 

I feel the giving enemies "tools" to survive certain situations is a first step in the direction toward creating dynamic gameplay situations where the same old solutions won't cut it.

 

I'd love to see an in game situation when Penta + Iron Skin + MPrime won't solve your problem. A situation where the Lanka is the right choice compared with the Boltor Prime.

 

 

We can always overhaul the Eximi to make them be an actual threat, for starters (some resistance to powers with vulnerability to others, just to shake up gameplay a bit).

 

 

AI won't mean squat if they don't live long enough to utilize their newfound brain powers.  

 

 

Weak spots on common enemies, reasons to actually take aim instead of just spraying death in their general direction, worrying about blowing up every enemy in the room with your ultimate, are all great examples to make combat feel different, not just on a mission-to-mission basis, but a conflict-to-conflict basis within any given mission.  

 

Just giving some melee units the ability to parry our bullets to close the gap in the same way that we do to them, would cause us to take decisive action and switch our melee weapons as well (if we brought them, that is).

 

We don't need only adjusting the numbers around how quickly our adversaries fall before us, but rather HOW we make our adversaries fall.

 

Enemy AI will only prolong the inevitable, while giving more variation to our enemies in terms of where or how we take them down in the end will provide a much more satisfying experience IMO.

 

As usual, you have my upvote, my good sir.

 

 

I feel like this thread is very relevant to the way I play. Especially with the old Nova. I would run into a room, ult for 25 energy (Stream-Line plus Fleeting Expertise) shoot one guy in the face, and watch the whole room explode. Total cost of killing everything: .5 seconds, 1 bullet from my primary/secondary, and 25 energy that will regenerate soon from Energy Siphon (assuming of course, that not a single enemy in that entire room drops an energy orb). Next room, rinse, repeat.

 

 

------

 

Honestly, If they just made some enemies with resistance to being exploded to death in .5 of a second, that alone would be a marked improvement. But I digress. I am completely in agreement that enemies should get some type of special abilities that allow them to protect allies/themselves, weakness to specific ways of being damaged (not immunities to other damage types, just vulnerable to melee, resists bullets, or vice versa). Maybe a dodge roll away from a grenade or rocket occasionally (obviously not all the time, otherwise, Ogris/Penta/Angstrum would be useless).

 

 

----

 

Also, thoughts on how to get DE to read the thread. Everyone who has read this thread send PM to Rebecca, Megan, or Steve saying "Hey, this thread has some great ideas! Read it!"

 

 - Edit: PM'd Rebecca, and she PM'd back that she's opened it in another tab and has it on her radar. So you guys don't need to PM anyone. We don't want to spam their inbox after all.

 

Just some thoughts I had.

 

 

Edited July 21, 2014 by notionphil

[nintega]

You, sir, are one clever sonofa*@##$. This is exactly what we need. Something that can counter us, but with knowledge we can counter in turn. And if this does get looked at, and by some stroke of luck, implemented, improving AI on top of this could make regular gameplay actually challenging, in a fun way at that.

[DiabolusUrsus]

This sounds really, really nice. So much more preferable than our current Eximus system which, aside from the Ice Eximi, is nothing more than giving a few select enemies out of hordes of them really annoying and inconvenient powers that just make us shoot them faster. 

[DeathKoala]

I like you. You make good posts.

[Steelleef]

I also think, one REALLY big thing the AI needs, is to actually USE cover.

 

 

 

Not try to hide behind a rock with 95% of their body exposed.  Like.... what is the point by that level of being "uncovered"?   Enemies randomly running in circles are harder to hit at that point.  That, plus what you said, would be good.

[LordMidnightX]

have a cookie sir

[VoidWraith]

I'll admit, those are some pretty nice ideas...

 

I also feel they should tie this in with it:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/234751-backstabbing-and-executions-cool-but-useless-lets-fix-that/?hl=finishers

[http404error]

Notionphil, I'd hire you.

[KittyDarkling]

    All and all good input. I'd love to have more enemies that didn't just die whenever I'd look at em funny!

 

                                                                           +1

[Noble_Cactus]

Completely agreed. And well-put, OP.

I've been trying to figure out lately why the Mercenaries mode in Resident Evil 6 wasn't as fun as the one in 4 or 5. And I think the big reason - aside from some other niggling problems - is that there aren't really any "big bads" you have to keep track of. For the most part, you're mowing through waves of trash. Sure, they'll throw some more advanced enemies at you. But there aren't any Super Salvadors, J.J.'s, or Bella Sisters to keep you on your toes. Something to really put the fear into you if you let it get out of hand, and something that an experineced player knows how to deal with promptly but would still pose a major threat if left unattended. I mean I guess there's that giant zombie near the end of the city stage in RE6 but that's not the same.

Anyway, that's kind of the problem Survival has right now. It's an hour or two of chugging along, killing trash until the game decides to spawn an air tank all the way across the map at 20% or until everyone gets bored. More dynamic enemies that require a bit of strategy to defeat in a Survival, like those listed in the OP butattached to unique enemies that would appear every 10 minutes or so, would definitely spice up playing that mode.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[SilverBones]

I am officially in love with this thread.

 

This is what made ME3 Multiplayer fun and replayable; enemies like Phantoms and Banshees keeping us on our toes while we murder fodder on a grand scale.

 

10/10 - Would read again.

[OptimumBow0]

Cautionary bump.

 

I love your merciless metaphor, by the way; it's funny but effective. 

[Archeyef]

I approve of these ideas. The Exima just aren't quite enough.

[PixalatedVortex]

my only problem with this post was Ash holding a Orthos prime, that doesn't strike me as a weapon a Ash would use

:)

Edited May 30, 2014 by PixalatedVortex

[Dalawantahr]

+1 for the title.

+10 for actually made me read and analyze your post.

+100 for your solution to a problem.

[CBAROG]

DE, hire him as balance advisor. He is a genius.

[WhisperByte]

Another great thread that will die in few days without DEvs even acknowledging it... Sigh. +1'd anyway cause I agree

 

Hek, even if DEvs implement more abilities for enemies I bet those would be typical unavoidable energy drains or agency removals...

[Mirriky]

Yes, I agree with all of this. Putting some amazing concepts into an easy to read formula.

If there is one topic I want the DE moderators to copy/paste to the dev's it's this one.

10/10 on ideas.

Edited May 30, 2014 by cam-o-flage20

[MrBitey]

Please god yes.

[calabi]

Great idea, its similar to Batman Arkham games, which have some of the best game mechanics.  I think like you say the AI needs to be simplified, I've seen it become indecisive go one way then another, it just looks stupid and it seems to be cpu intensive.

 

There may be problems with just adding it in though, the game would have to be balanced around them.  The new people would have a very hard time or anyone that doesnt understand these new enemies. 

 

But it would make it much more fun.

[DietEbolaCola]

+1 to this. You raise a lot of good points.

 

Someone else was mentioning in chat the other day they love going back to some game.. i forget the name.. because one particular faction in it were completely immune to gunfire.. you to have close in to melee them while the rest are pew pewing & throwing grenades & powers at you.. and that is what made it fresh and exciting for them..maybe something like that could be added for certain spawns.

 

Sometimes, I really miss the lingering toxic cloud the Toxic Ancients left behind before they were nerfed. It added additional strategy avoiding them on crowded infested maps and narrow corridors. Maybe bring it back for Toxic Ancients killed by explosions or something, rather than 100% on all of them like before?

 

Speaking of Ancients.. the very first time I ever an Infested Ancient.. back when they were first available to new players on Venus tilesets, back in the day.. he popped around a corner unexpectedly, and I screamed like a girl as I ran away trying to kill him with my MK1 peashooter, and I rarely went to Venus alone when I was undergeared or leveling as a result of that. I want more of that, because it has disappeared from this game's experience for me.

 

One thing I liked about some DND-based MMO games is that in addition to creatures gaining stats as their level increases, they also unlock additional powers just like the players in those games do, whether it be new powers, abilities, spells, melee or ranged attacks.. That could be implemented here, too..

 

For example.. say a level 1-10 Grineer Butcher just does normal attacks & behavior like we see in game currently.. at level 11+ they unlock a chance to move from cover to cover or flank players and try to ambush them.. at level 20+ they have a chance to parry player attacks.. at level 30+ they unlock a chance to do a special attack or leg sweep with knockdown.. at level 40+ they unlock a chance to throw cleavers as a ranged attack before whipping out fresh cleavers & rushing head on.. Stuff like that..

 

(levels and powers in my example above are completely arbitrary.. i'm just brainstorming here..)

 

As far as feedback to the suggested examples in the OP..

 

Rather than Railgun Moas throwing out a volt-like electric shield, I think it would fit more allowing Corpus Techs to do it. I can also see Corpus Techs throwing out low-grade teslas, and throwing out EMP grenades with Ancient Disruptor or Radial Blind type effects..

 

For Railgun Moas and Fusion Moas I kind of see a moment of near invulnerability while they are at full shields or a side effect of all the power going toward charging their weapons up creating some sort of energy field that blocks gunfire.. they are stationary and cannot move in that state.. and once they fire it drops their shields / protective energy field, and they are completely vulnerable / in a weakened state for a second or two.. still unable to move.. until the effect clears..

[Varzy]

Great suggestions, DE should definitely toss a ball around on this topic. +1

[grillv20]

I personally would like to see some enemies that cloak themselves and are invisible from radar that kind of hide and get the jump on you. Feels sort of lame just jamming through levels without some sort of "oh S#&$" moment happening. The stalker is a pretty awesome enemy and I think something like this would add more to his scary factor.

 

Hell, have some infested guys that have telekinetic powers that push and pull players. Grineer with smoke grenades etc.

Edited May 30, 2014 by grillv20

[blackstraykitten]

i came here to defend this idea but it looks like its been received nicely.

[notionphil]

Firstly, thanks everyone for the support and the feedback. here goes a little wall of replies.

 

This sounds really, really nice. So much more preferable than our current Eximus system which, aside from the Ice Eximi, is nothing more than giving a few select enemies out of hordes of them really annoying and inconvenient powers that just make us shoot them faster. 

 

Thanks! I was also rather disappointed with the Eximus system which (other than the Ice as you said) is really just a Run-away-in-a-random-direction-when-you-see-an-aura-at-your-feet system. DE really goes overboard with the cheapshot vs challenge balance.

 

The Ice Eximus is also...relatively not special, but at least he doesn't have a cheap shot mechanic, and his globe provides a little extra...challenge? What would have been really cool would have been if his ice globe were 100% invulnerable except 2 or 3 missing faces, so you'd either decide to rush in for melee (no slowing inside) or sharpshoot him through the holes.

 

 

 

I also think, one REALLY big thing the AI needs, is to actually USE cover.

 

 

 

Not try to hide behind a rock with 95% of their body exposed.  Like.... what is the point by that level of being "uncovered"?   Enemies randomly running in circles are harder to hit at that point.  That, plus what you said, would be good.

 

I do agree with this 100%. The only two things the AI needs to do better is are 1) get their whole frigging body behind cover and 2) learn to dive occasionally!

 

I am officially in love with this thread.

 

This is what made ME3 Multiplayer fun and replayable; enemies like Phantoms and Banshees keeping us on our toes while we murder fodder on a grand scale.

 

10/10 - Would read again.

 

Thanks silverbones. Your concepts and art are also truly inspiring. We should work together on something, maybe we can start a revolution.

 

 

DE, hire him as balance advisor. He is a genius.

 

generous...but much appreciated!

 

There may be problems with just adding it in though, the game would have to be balanced around them.  The new people would have a very hard time or anyone that doesnt understand these new enemies. 

 

But it would make it much more fun.

 

I do feel that these more special enemies should not occur frequently in low level content. That's also why not every enemy would have 'options'. You'd start seeing these enemies around the end of earth, and then by the time you arrive in Ceres, pretty much each grouping would have at least one special enemy that simply shooting in the face wouldn't kill.