Forget Better Ai - We Need Better Dumb Enemies

[ThePresident777]

I've seen enemy hop around better than the Tenno.  I understand it's for the sake of pathing.  But, it destroys immersion all the same when the enemy are more space ninja than the Tenno.

[4MostlyHarmless2]

Since we're still in this topic, what do you guys think about that new Nullifier Crewman and Scorching Osprey? It looks like DE is starting to take these things into account...

[InsanePMK]

Since we're still in this topic, what do you guys think about that new Nullifier Crewman and Scorching Osprey? It looks like DE is starting to take these things into account...

More enemies to fight Yay!

[RainDH]

Since we're still in this topic, what do you guys think about that new Nullifier Crewman and Scorching Osprey? It looks like DE is starting to take these things into account...

Yesterday I went on sabotage-2. After destroying portal scorching ospreys literally flooded Orokin Tower. There were dozens of them and no corrupted mobs at all.

[Bibliothekar]

The Grineer Shield Lancer was one of the best designed enemies in the game (at least before half of our weapons became AoE and punchthrough). Why? Because he was the one enemy in the game that unloading a clip from your [insert weapon name] didn't kill.

 

You actually had to do...something...anything different, to kill him. A power. A jumpkick. Even..gasp...aim at his head!

Oh yes, those glorious times when you could use Pull1.0 to steal their shield. It still makes me a little sad that they removed this with AoE-Pull. Anyway, "smarter" enemies that require more skill to deal with would really be a nice thing. Nullifier Crewmen might be a step in that direction, maybe half a step too far.

[Hueminator]

I don't think Nullifier have anything to do with "smarter AI", just equipped with better tools to deal with tenno or what the OP called "better dumb enemy"

Edited December 17, 2014 by Hueminator

[Bibliothekar]

Uhm, yes, that's what I meant. Sorry, the sentence got a little mixed up. Nullifiers aren't any smarter in terms of AI, but we players have to be a little smarter in how we deal with them.

[Bibliothekar]

But what you mentioned was the Grineer Commander "making the fighters shift focus/be more organized etc".

 

This is the kind of "smart AI" suggestion I see all the time in "we need better AI threads" and exactly what the OP is about. "Being more organized" is no longer simple AI, it's group communicative AI with multiple priority levels, requiring far more than adding a few booleans...and the end result of it won't have an even slightly beneficial effect on the challenge level of an encounter.

Grineer Commanders could spawn with a (more or less) pre-defined group. So you'd e.g. have a wall of three Shield Lancers providing cover with regular Lancers walking behind them, finally the Commander and one or two heavies in the back. Their intelligence would just be enough to tell the rest of the group "Assume positions". Depending on the mission type, they could "identify" bottleneck positions and have their team stop there instead of rushing towards the slaughter machine of the Tenno. Kill the Commander, the data array is deleted and the rest of the team becomes as unorganized as your usual Grineer again.

[ThePresident777]

I think Nullfier Crewmen are in line with what the OP is asking for.

[DSpite]

Wait until the Commanders start teleporting you DIRECTLY inside Nullifier bubbles. You know those Shock prods some of them have? Well, guess where they are sticking them.

[Sixty5]

Wait until the Commanders start teleporting you DIRECTLY inside Nullifier bubbles. You know those Shock prods some of them have? Well, guess where they are sticking them.

Pity Grineer amd corpus are different factions.

[DSpite]

Pity Grineer amd corpus are different factions.

 

Ah, see, you missed the subtle hint there that DE just needs to make more units :) like one that sneaks up on you and straps that Nullifier unit DIRECTLY on you with a lock mechanics and then runs away.

 

"Green Elf is now IT"

 

*rest of team runs away from player*

[ThePresident777]

Doing the tac alert.  Enemies straggling into the death trap all by themselves.  It's not complicated to have enemy show up together in a horde.  So, I'll add that to the better dumb AI pile.  Stragglers have to go.  The enemy should be able to mob at the very least.

[DSpite]

I would love for DE to hand enemy unit control over to players just for a month and watch how they play them.

 

I think it would hilarious, even for just a person every so often going to play hide and go seek and slowing down the wave.

 

"Why did none of you bastards equip Enemy Radar???"

[Bibliothekar]

I would love for DE to hand enemy unit control over to players just for a month and watch how they play them.

That would be so awesome. I'd love to play a Grineer General and send my clones against a Tenno team.

[ThePresident777]

Enemy control would be a hilarious tac alert.

[SigweardStoneFist]

And I have just one problem with your thread.

 

especially for the title, saying "Forget Better AI - We need better dumb enemies"

 

In your overal topic you try to say that the AI dies too easy, atleast that is how it comes over for me.

 

If the AI dies easy, then it just needs to become smarter.

 

 

==Important==

You cannot have both behaviours at the same time without giving the game crashes or having problems with the AI.

^^ This is simply the reason why all AI are glitchy in other games ^^

Like the AI is walking through the floor instead of on the floor.

Or AI walking through the walls.

 

You're mostly asking companies to add things which aren't possible to give without bugs.

[fatpig84]

For all the topics asking for better AI.

I guess it is high time we bring this back up.

 

Dumb is better.

Smart AI is taxing on DE. 

Keep it simple stupid (KISS) is the name of the game.

 

After all this is a horde game.

It like an over the shoulder Diablo rather than Mass Effect with chest high walls.

We don't need enemies being tactical SWAT teams because we will still usually tear them a new one before they can do their swat stuff. That is part of the Warrior God feel.

 

 

But I rather we have more dumb and effective enemies (yeah Nullifiers are dumb and maybe TOO effective but hopefully DE patches out the kinks on it's shields killing low ROF weapons) that provides a small road bump but still makes us feel powerful so yeah DE keep it simple !

Edited January 7, 2015 by fatpig84

[PapaRexxie]

 I like this thread. I'll point to it more often when I get into talks about the difficulty of this game.  Also DE needs to do something about Grineer and their "Formation Delta maneuver" which is them running in circles firing randomly in all directions.  Sir...sir...this is not a bullet hell game. Sir!? A-are you listening? Stop randomly shooting EVERYWHERE MY GOD WHAT DO THEY TEACH YOU!?

[oinkah]

I think nullifiers (and especially arctic nullifiers) are the ultimate representation of this "better dumb enemy" concept, as they are an apotheosis of shield lancer - taking away our usual methods of combat.

And the result is frustrating to say the least. Taking away tools that players have learned to rely on is not a good way of challenge. You can almost feel the dumbness.

I still think that improving AI is a way to increase the quality of difficulty. However warframe has become too much of a horde game. Strength difference between average non-scaled enemy and usual player loadout is only increasing. This gap of power is not healthy for the game, but many players have grown attached to it.

Also, improving Ai is a thankless job. Unless it suddenly becomes F.E.A.R levels of smart, tiny Ai improvements tend to be unnoticed.

Edited January 7, 2015 by oinkah

[Rorgal_Sina]

Thing is, these super accurate enemies are quite simple and dumb to program, but still erm... yeah.