Forget Better Ai - We Need Better Dumb Enemies

[KizuLove]

Amazing balancing ideas. I seriously hope DE's able to read this.

[GeoffFromAccounting]

DE, hire this guy now because THIS guy knows how to make interesting game play without relying on grind

[--Q--Munkee]

This topic is awesome ! And yes we need a much clever enemies.. Because even in

high level missions, nova and vauban with explosive weapons can handle it so easy.

I hope DE upgrades the enemies so this game dont get boring as time goes by.

[unknow99]

Nice thread. You're right : enemies should keep the current behaviour/"equipment" in Mercury/Venus....

 

However, once they reached a certain level, we must feel some hints of organization/tactic formations( that the other AI topics talked about, and I can assure you it's necessary) and also some reinforced defense skills,forcing you to play/think different (not just simply be bullet-sponge).

 

More shielded units, bullet-parrying melee units... A strong opponent with a weak spot(you couldn't guess it at first sight) that requires something else than press 4/have nuke weapons.

 

Following.

[Renegade343]

Telling enemies to come close is all well and good when you have an ice shield :)  That is a "dumb" ability, and a really decent one at that.

 

But what you mentioned was the Grineer Commander "making the fighters shift focus/be more organized etc".

 

This is the kind of "smart AI" suggestion I see all the time in "we need better AI threads" and exactly what the OP is about. "Being more organized" is no longer simple AI, it's group communicative AI with multiple priority levels, requiring far more than adding a few booleans...and the end result of it won't have an even slightly beneficial effect on the challenge level of an encounter.

 

You have to remember that the average trashmob's lifespan is probably less than 1 second after being sighted by a Tenno. So within that 1 second, he really isn't going to do anything "organized or focused". He's going to fire off a few rounds, take a few steps, or peek out from a box, and get shot in the head or burned to a crisp.

 

There's not much you can do to make him seem especially smart while doing those things...and trying to make him do something "smart" like "get in a formation" or "change location to focus fire on Nova bc she's the DPSer" is going to make him an even easier target for the player.

 

The smartest thing a trashmob can do when a Tenno is spotted is dive behind a rock and hope to get a shot off before he dies.

We can incorporate the two by having the Commander hide behind cover constantly and give (very) basic instructions, for instance just telling the surrounding Grineer (Elite) Lancers to throw grenades and such. That should increase his survivability.

 

Or, you know, have him act like a Regulator while constantly hiding behind cover (increased attack damage + speed) for surrounding Grineer troops, akin to a morale boost (although that seems to sound a bit lazy and may feel like a re-skin, but it follows your idea of 'dumb' AI). 

Edited May 31, 2014 by Renegade343

[notionphil]

Sign my baby Notionphil!

 

Okay I don't have a kid for you to sign but take my +1 

 

You really nailed the issue on the head here, truly some stellar ideas here and I sure hope DE reads this and takes it into consideration.

Haha thanks that's the best kudos message I've ever received :)

+1 to you good sir!

[Recel]

I would like to say, that giving tools to the enemie that can stop our bullets/skills won't matter much, if there isn't really any AI behind it to make use of it.

 

Like in your example, the Shield Lancer.

The shield lancer wasn't just interesting because you couldn't shoot him easily, but also because enemies piled up behind them and you couldn't shoot THEM easily while the shield lancer whas alive! A few of them could cover an entire platoon, so you HAD to deal with them, or you had a hail of bullets coming from behind him.

 

With tools that deny bullets, skills and explosions, there needs to be an AI that can see that they can use their friends ability/tool to keep them self alive for more than a fraction of a second too.

 

So while I agree that we need new/reworked mobs that can avoid dieing instantly, I disagree that there's no need for AI. There is still need for AI improvements, even if just basic "get behind my shield" AI.

Edited May 31, 2014 by Recel

[4MostlyHarmless2]

notionphil I just love your ideas, they're always simple and brilliant and seem totally within the capacity of DE to do. 

[Dojutrek]

You sir have earned my admiration and approval for a well thought out design concept with minimal work placed upon the development team to get it off the ground.

[shut]

I agree with everything in this thread.

 

That's not to say that enemies shouldn't need an AI tweak, though. They still need to react more realistically to Invisible players. XD

[deltaheavy]

+1

[Davoodoo]

I dont agree only on 2 points.

 

While getting more dangerous heavy units you cant forget about grunts.

No enemy should be ignoreable, not even lancers, they might do little dmg but if you dont reduce their number regularly they should eventually be able to overcome you. Thats not a problem at defense, you are forced to bring them all down before next wave spawns but on other game mods they are dealt by pressing 4 and survivors usually prove no threat and are merely ignored and even after they manage to build some numbers again, press 4 and cycle repeats.

Its basically another challenge, managing weaker units while watching for stronger ones.

Also even 2328292893892lvl lancer wont be any challenge if hes hanging up 25/8, so that should also be looked at.

 

And another thing is that game should be balanced, given proper pace and progression.  You can be stronger than enemy but not as much as were now.

Its ok for a sniper, shotgun or grenade/rocket launcher to kill enemy with 1 shot. But we are able to kill 7 enemies with 1 shot from rapid fire assault rifle.

Daggers are as strong as two ton hammer while swinging much faster.

Global reduction in dmg output and numbers tweaking would be in order.

You cant say that game just needs to look balanced, it should be balanced. Its important to keep proper pace.

 

On rest i agree.

Edited May 31, 2014 by Davoodoo

[deth_monkey69]

Totally agree with this. Fodder is fine, but the fodder needs a protector every so often, like a mini boss kinda thing. Agreed on the ME 3 comparison. This would also encourage teamwork. In me3 and l4d players often kinda do their own thing until a banshee or juggernaut show up. Then someone shouts juggernaut and you with together to kill it. Or die.

[CosyPigeon]

Yes please. +1 to OP. 

[dragonboss]

No, we don't need better dumb enemies, we need smart enemies with mechanic based ways to kill them other than doing sheer damage. As it is now, this game requires close to 0 skill to play. Why? You either get one shotted(or Ancient Pimp Slapped/overwhelmed by plasma bullets) or oneshot the enemy.

 

Look at Ninja Gaiden, your enemies don't even have health bars other than bosses, and they can all do what you can do, block, parry evade, grab etc. There are at least 3 ways to kill every enemy in NG;

 

1. Just mash, will get you through easy and maybe normal if your a mashing pro. Not much skill here.

 

2. Block and wait for openings and counter attack. Takes skill as your guard can be broken(and it will be frequently)

 

3. Successfully parry, which takes off a limb and leaves the enemy vulnerable to a finisher. Takes skill to do this.

 

4. Evade damage by dashing, rolling and jumping around, then attack. Takes alot of skill to do this and is comlplemented by ^

 

In Warframe all we have are bullet sponges, energy draining bullet sponges, shield draining bullet sponges, and occasionally vulnerable in specific spots bullet sponges(Ruk, Vay Hek). Evasive movement hardly does anything at all when trying to dodge gunfire, cause enemies have 100% accuracy at all times (even while sprinting and shooting backward, what?). That is simply bad enemy design. Having enemies take control away from the player without there being an option to counter it, or a way to recover from it quickly is unacceptible(making a mod for this is not the answer).

Enemies are also way too stupid and don't use cover properly (i.e. taking cover on the wrong side right in front of you ). The problem of enemies spawning in rooms that you have cleared and have only one entrance still exists as well.

[Implodingbanana]

yes please! great idea! im tired of running passed enemies and having them die without any effort and im tired of just running past enemies and ignoring them in every mission not requiring me to kill every lest one of them.

[notionphil]

No, we don't need better dumb enemies, we need smart enemies with mechanic based ways to kill them other than doing sheer damage. As it is now, this game requires close to 0 skill to play. Why? You either get one shotted(or Ancient Pimp Slapped/overwhelmed by plasma bullets) or oneshot the enemy.

 

Look at Ninja Gaiden, your enemies don't even have health bars other than bosses, and they can all do what you can do, block, parry evade, grab etc. There are at least 3 ways to kill every enemy in NG;

 

1. Just mash, will get you through easy and maybe normal if your a mashing pro. Not much skill here.

 

2. Block and wait for openings and counter attack. Takes skill as your guard can be broken(and it will be frequently)

 

3. Successfully parry, which takes off a limb and leaves the enemy vulnerable to a finisher. Takes skill to do this.

 

4. Evade damage by dashing, rolling and jumping around, then attack. Takes alot of skill to do this and is comlplemented by ^

 

In Warframe all we have are bullet sponges, energy draining bullet sponges, shield draining bullet sponges, and occasionally vulnerable in specific spots bullet sponges(Ruk, Vay Hek). Evasive movement hardly does anything at all when trying to dodge gunfire, cause enemies have 100% accuracy at all times (even while sprinting and shooting backward, what?). That is simply bad enemy design. Having enemies take control away from the player without there being an option to counter it, or a way to recover from it quickly is unacceptible(making a mod for this is not the answer).

Enemies are also way too stupid and don't use cover properly (i.e. taking cover on the wrong side right in front of you ). The problem of enemies spawning in rooms that you have cleared and have only one entrance still exists as well.

 

Did you read the OP or just the title? :D

 

You want enemies to "block, parry evade". Those are the exact skills I've suggested. Those are not "smart AI", these are basic reaction skills which I'm referring to as "dumb".

 

When I say "smart AI" I'm referring to countless posts asking for things like enemies taking formations, using "strategy",(whatever that means) to better combat the Tenno.

 

When I say "dumb" I mean built in mechanics like a helmet/shield or basic reaction skills like "dodge when a rocket is flying at your head" or "parry bullets".

 

You said WF needs "enemies with mechanic based ways to kill them other than doing sheer damage". That's exactly what I'm suggesting. This has nothing to do with making an enemy "smarter". We need them to be designed better, in simple ways.

[CerebrateJoe]

I'm down with these changes.  Lets give it a shot and see what happens.

[Zeranov]

Wow... that solution is so simple and relativly easy to implement yet it would change the feel of combat so much. Truly magnificent.

 

DE should absolutly consider to do something like that to fight the monotony of AI and combat in general, because mowing through masses of poor bastards (even eximi) when all you need to do is just keep mindlessly firing at them sure gets boring after a while.

 

Like the OP said there is no challange (after you acquired enough DPS to just kill them all, regardless of the enemy) and at last no reason to be an incredible battle deity at all.

Edited June 1, 2014 by Zeranov

[Educated_Beast]

Great post!  I thought cover and flanking would be good, but I have to agree with you 100%.  I liked post, hope it goes to the higher powers. 

 

This would make Warframe fantastic. 

[RustyNaps]

+1

 

I've been asking for this for about a year.

[dummifighter]

If they add this, this would be the best game ever, i already love it, but the enemies are so easy, it makes warframe boring sometimes.

Thats why i love the suspicious shipment alerts, they are much harder and so fun!!

[notionphil]

Great post!  I thought cover and flanking would be good, but I have to agree with you 100%.  I liked post, hope it goes to the higher powers. 

 

This would make Warframe fantastic.

Flanking would be good if given to the "right" enemies, in the right situation.

Ifthere were an enemy type that had either the speed or the resistance to survive getting out of cover for even a second ...maybe so. However right now if an enemy even peeks his head out, we'll kill him instantly and think "geez why was that enemy so dumb leaving cover " :p

Also, with the current messed up spawn system we are always flanked anyway. So there's little actual need for real flanking unless the entire spawn system is fixed ( which would be a good thing but, it would actually decrease challenge unless coupled with lots of enemy changes).

[Morveyn]

Phil, do you ever have bad ideas? Certainly haven't seen any so far.

 

+1 for days. This is a step in the right direction for Warframe's imept hordes of enemies.

[notionphil]

Phil, do you ever have bad ideas? Certainly haven't seen any so far.

 

+1 for days. This is a step in the right direction for Warframe's imept hordes of enemies.

 

Thanks! Of course I have poorly thought out ideas...I typically save those for friday nights!

 

I dont agree only on 2 points.

 

While getting more dangerous heavy units you cant forget about grunts.

No enemy should be ignoreable, not even lancers, they might do little dmg but if you dont reduce their number regularly they should eventually be able to overcome you.

 

 

 

 

The problem is that difficulty in WF is currently via created overwhelming numbers. Either in the form of stats, or in the form of sheer enemy volume.

 

It's one thing to be surrounded by 100 lancers. But facing 100 lancers who are power resistant, and can only be killed via headshots would be nearly impossible. Especially if they all had 10k HP.

 

If all fodder enemies required skill to dispatch, we'd need a rework of the entire spawn/difficulty system. I think it would be more inline with WF's outlook to add skill-based difficulty spikes, but still let us feel like warrior deities 80% of the time.

 

So my actual response is - if you hide one or two skill-based "dumb" ability mobs in with the 100 lancers, they increase the difficulty of the entire encounter.

 

Having said that, I do think missions themselves should have occasional 'challenge teams' such as a squad of bullet parrying scorpions, with a power resistant Grineer Commander who protects them...just an example!

Edited June 2, 2014 by notionphil