Forget Better Ai - We Need Better Dumb Enemies

[MDRLOz]

Wow I started on your buffed enemy damage thread and just been going through the links. This one seems to have exploded with +1s. 

 

I can see why as well. You have hit the nail on the head with the way mobs need to be improved. I was getting soooooo sick of people asking for better "AI" and "AI 2.0" with no explanation for what these mean. 

 

You really do explain it well when looking at it from just a corpus crewman's position. you could make that 5 crewman or even 10 crewman and it doesnt change. No combat formation or clever pathing will save them for the stupid easy AoE abilities.

 

It is sad but I feel your small tweaks here will probably add more to game-play then the three mobs we are getting from the competition (cool in their own way). I worry they will be quite easy to kill with just standard shoot tactics. 

 

You must be on a record for number of +1s per day here. Oh well hope we get some feedback on this kind of thing.  

[Davoodoo]

Thanks! Of course I have poorly thought out ideas...I typically save those for friday nights!

 

 

The problem is that difficulty in WF is currently via created overwhelming numbers. Either in the form of stats, or in the form of sheer enemy volume.

 

It's one thing to be surrounded by 100 lancers. But facing 100 lancers who are power resistant, and can only be killed via headshots would be nearly impossible. Especially if they all had 10k HP.

 

If all fodder enemies required skill to dispatch, we'd need a rework of the entire spawn/difficulty system. I think it would be more inline with WF's outlook to add skill-based difficulty spikes, but still let us feel like warrior deities 80% of the time.

 

So my actual response is - if you hide one or two skill-based "dumb" ability mobs in with the 100 lancers, they increase the difficulty of the entire encounter.

 

Having said that, I do think missions themselves should have occasional 'challenge teams' such as a squad of bullet parrying scorpions, with a power resistant Grineer Commander who protects them...just an example!

What i meant by that is that while 1 lancer deals neglible damage, game should continue to spawn them for as long as there are higher ranked units and eventually overwhelm you and this higher ranked units would actually be skill based or power resistant unit. 

This would mean you cant press 4 and then proceed to take stronger units one by one.

[azmyth1]

I love this post, and I'd be very excited to see these changes.  Heck, there's really nothing to lose.  It's a beta for crying out loud, if some enemies don't work out, revert them and move on.

 

Some enemies just need increased damage.  I don't even bother rolling to get rid of Seeker's latchers because 50 damage isn't worth the time it takes to avoid.  Same thing with Infested volatile runners - who cares about 100 or so explosive damage?  Grineer flameblades/powerfists are a good enemy type with the teleport, but once again don't do enough damage to be anything more than a nuisance.  There could be a sound effect or visual teleport flash to alert players to their presence to balance out the additional damage.  Maybe after the "suspicious shipment" alert, DE will buff all enemy damages, but these enemies in particular need to do enough damage to alter player behavior.

 

Infested need a serious rework.  They are simply too boring right now.  Runners can be ignored, Leapers take WAY to long to jump and so in practice are just runners.  Chargers are ok, and satisfy the "cheap mooks to kill" role just fine.  But the real disappointment is ancients.  They just run at you.  Who cares?  Healers' healing is to small to even be noticeable.  You have to actively look for it since almost all weak Infested can be one shot anyway.  They need to bring Infested back from the dead, and they need to be able to do so fairly quickly.  Toxic Ancients should get the old J3 Golem's toxic cloud launcher.  It's dodgeable, so it can be fairly powerful/bypass shields and still be balanced.  Disrupters... I'm not sure.  Finally, there need to be infested which slow the player down to make them more vulnerable to the rest of the Infested horde.  Maybe a flying Infested which pukes pools of goo which slow players down who run in it, similar to the Void Cryo floors.

 

They should bring back the armored Corpus heads.  Now they don't have serious damage reduction there once.  I guess it's cool that the helmets pop off, but they should only do so after doing well more damage than their bodies can take.  Non-head weak spots are underrated.  I'm not too attached to any one change, but the moral of the story is - Make players actively and thoughtfully interact with enemies, not just kill them mindlessly and move on.

[VDeorsum]

...wow...+1 man!

[TwiceDead]

This is what made ME3 Multiplayer fun and replayable; enemies like Phantoms and Banshees keeping us on our toes while we murder fodder on a grand scale.

Pretty much this. 

 

Currently we only have fodder in this game. 

[notionphil]

I love this post, and I'd be very excited to see these changes.  Heck, there's really nothing to lose.  It's a beta for crying out loud, if some enemies don't work out, revert them and move on.

 

Some enemies just need increased damage.  I don't even bother rolling to get rid of Seeker's latchers because 50 damage isn't worth the time it takes to avoid.  Same thing with Infested volatile runners - who cares about 100 or so explosive damage?  Grineer flameblades/powerfists are a good enemy type with the teleport, but once again don't do enough damage to be anything more than a nuisance.  There could be a sound effect or visual teleport flash to alert players to their presence to balance out the additional damage.  Maybe after the "suspicious shipment" alert, DE will buff all enemy damages, but these enemies in particular need to do enough damage to alter player behavior.

 

Infested need a serious rework.  They are simply too boring right now.  Runners can be ignored, Leapers take WAY to long to jump and so in practice are just runners.  Chargers are ok, and satisfy the "cheap mooks to kill" role just fine.  But the real disappointment is ancients.  They just run at you.  Who cares?  Healers' healing is to small to even be noticeable.  You have to actively look for it since almost all weak Infested can be one shot anyway.  They need to bring Infested back from the dead, and they need to be able to do so fairly quickly.  Toxic Ancients should get the old J3 Golem's toxic cloud launcher.  It's dodgeable, so it can be fairly powerful/bypass shields and still be balanced.  Disrupters... I'm not sure.  Finally, there need to be infested which slow the player down to make them more vulnerable to the rest of the Infested horde.  Maybe a flying Infested which pukes pools of goo which slow players down who run in it, similar to the Void Cryo floors.

 

They should bring back the armored Corpus heads.  Now they don't have serious damage reduction there once.  I guess it's cool that the helmets pop off, but they should only do so after doing well more damage than their bodies can take.  Non-head weak spots are underrated.  I'm not too attached to any one change, but the moral of the story is - Make players actively and thoughtfully interact with enemies, not just kill them mindlessly and move on.

 

Your itemized suggestions are really, really good for the infested.

 

-healers should revive enemies, bc healing enemies that get one-shot is meaningless

-toxic need to shoot poison area denial clouds (should grow slowly, with telegraph)

-non head weak spots are SERIOUSLY underused and underrated

 

add my suggestion from the OP

-leapers should be able to use that leap to dodge slow moving AoE projectiles

 

that would be a really dynamic and interesting faction to combat...with only simple tweaks

[unknow99]

Please don't forget one thing : it has to be "noob-friendly"... Beginning the game is still a little hard atm (yeah I'm as surprised as you are). :/

[Phatose]

Properly done, this would be a huge improvement in the new player experience. 

 

I'd wager that's why he's stressed that enemies need to telegraph their moves.  The idea is to make enemies that require a particular behavior on the player's part that is intuitively obvious.  Big shield enemy?  Get around the shield.  Armored suit with a face behind a glass window?  Shoot the glass.

 

The huge advantage is that you don't need the enemies to have high stats to create a challenge this way, so the "Must have mods" become less relevant.  It's also why you see this type of enemy in everything from Metroid to Bayonetta to Dark Souls. 

[DalaiLlama]

Cautionary, but still a relatively new idea.  This would definitely help, though some work in AI and much work in pathfinding is still required.

[Yaerion]

Seems well-thought.

+1ed.

[SlyBoots]

stop posting, notionphil, you're not exactly making it easier to accept warframe for what it is... QQ

[gam3addict]

I tried to pick a particular enemy "tool" to point out as a great idea, but every one I picked immediately made me reconsider another. They're all amazing. Also I loved the "imagine you're a crewman" scenario.

[FalsePride]

u had me at the first paragraph. well written

[(PSN)Tego818]

Don't worry, instead of retooling several clones of the same enemy, (aesthetically and mechanically for the most part), we can just add more ostensibly interesting enemies to the game. This also let's them drop more mods from specific enemies, win-win!

[PookieNumnums]

so enemies with set weakpoints that are obvious to parties with no banshee and debuff/resurrection based enemies.  i liked the way you write but you could have tldrd at the top

 

all in all fair suggestion but better solutions are out there 

[notionphil]

so enemies with set weakpoints that are obvious to parties with no banshee and debuff/resurrection based enemies.  i liked the way you write but you could have tldrd at the top

 

all in all fair suggestion but better solutions are out there 

 

The suggestion isn't about "making some weakpoints" :D

 

The TL;DR would be "combat needs to be more dynamic and engaging. instead of using unavoidable/unforseeable attacks, agency removal and invulnerablity phases, use simple, synergistic enemy mechanics that promote skill based play and tactical assessment/execution to create challenge spikes and dramatic pacing - and a true feeling of victory."

 

Better solutions to do that?

 

Link pls.

[CBAROG]

Better solutions to do that?

 

Link pls.

+1.

[grillv20]

invulnerablity phases with bosses really makes me pooper peeved. 

[Krion112]

You know, I was really excited to play Warframe when I first started downloading it. I checked youtube for possible trailers it might have, and sure enough there were a few to watch.

 

One thing that caught my attention and made me feel like Warframe was going to me more genuine was the Open Beta Trailer. The moment Lech Kril showed up, my first feeling was that this wasn't just a boss; I thought it was going to be just a regular, heavy type enemy that would've required skill and tactics, and in teams: coordination, to defeat. Jump kicks to stagger, quick dodges to avoid the swings of his hammer, and the use of powers to finally bring him down. The way it ended up being was disappointing: He was just a simple boss on a far off celestial body, and not even a very hard one at that.

 

Right now, it takes little to no effort to kill, and not to say our enemies need more AI, they just need some form of additional abilities and survivability. Heck, the Lech Kril I thought was just an enemy wasn't necessarily smart, but the trailer expressed it took all four members of the team to coordinate and take him down. And all he did was swing his hammer.

[notionphil]

You know, I was really excited to play Warframe when I first started downloading it. I checked youtube for possible trailers it might have, and sure enough there were a few to watch.

 

One thing that caught my attention and made me feel like Warframe was going to me more genuine was the Open Beta Trailer. The moment Lech Kril showed up, my first feeling was that this wasn't just a boss; I thought it was going to be just a regular, heavy type enemy that would've required skill and tactics, and in teams: coordination, to defeat. Jump kicks to stagger, quick dodges to avoid the swings of his hammer, and the use of powers to finally bring him down. The way it ended up being was disappointing: He was just a simple boss on a far off celestial body, and not even a very hard one at that.

 

Right now, it takes little to no effort to kill, and not to say our enemies need more AI, they just need some form of additional abilities and survivability. Heck, the Lech Kril I thought was just an enemy wasn't necessarily smart, but the trailer expressed it took all four members of the team to coordinate and take him down. And all he did was swing his hammer.

 

You captured my sentiments exactly.

 

Tenno are portrayed not just as warriors with extraordinary power, but the skill, tactics, teamwork and discipline to know when and where to use their powers.

 

The trailer highlighted that key difference...which is nearly absent from the game. I do honestly feel like a handful of tweaks can help start bringing that feeling to Warframe itself, not just its promotional materials.

[(PSN)jenax002]

Loved the OP. you have some awesome ideas. You actually made me read the whole post. Lol. Hope it gets to the developers.

[VegetableBasket]

Great post.

I totally agree enemies need more gimmicks, but there is something to be said about the grineer running in circles, crewmen taking cover behind things that don't cover them at all, etc. The AI needs a look at but what you've discussed is just as important.

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

I don't know that I agree with the specifics and I would like more engaging enemy AI, but mixing up enemies a bit more is something I've suggested elsewhere. I can agree with OP in a general way.

[notionphil]

Great post.

I totally agree enemies need more gimmicks, but there is something to be said about the grineer running in circles, crewmen taking cover behind things that don't cover them at all, etc. The AI needs a look at but what you've discussed is just as important.

 

I do also agree that the AI needs some bug fixing.

 

While it's not as frequent a cause of death as simply having zero options in combat; enemies do sometimes run around in circles or "hide" with 95% of their bodies visible.

 

Infested also tend to bunch up along railings on certain tilesets making for a nice but challenge-free shooting gallery. I acknowledge these issues and would like them fixed as well.

 

Thanks for your feedback!

[Cabadath5]

Okay then.

 

Lemme find a few videos of enemies walking into walls or spinning in circles or unable to reach the player because they are too incompetent to use an elevator or throwing grenades right into the ceiling then.

 

This game DOES need better AI.ESPECIALLY if they plan of doing something regarding stealth any time soon because right now unalerted enemies just walk by their dead friends bodies like its not even there.

 

Also if they were actually capable of dealing damage like they did in the recent alert event a better AI would indeed help.The moas from those alerts were indeed difficult(if you didn't ulti spam that is) but units that would use cover would probably just stick behind a guard rail waiting to get shot.

 

As for abilities and a way to counter them, people will hate me for what I'm about to say but 9000000% energy efficiency/duration/etc HAS GOT to go.

 

Combined all this with a bit of a tweak to the insane power creep that is starting to slowly return, and high level missions where enemies are though enough not to get insta gibbed with one bullet from a fully automatic rifle and we may actually have a bit of a challenge in this game.

 

Also I take it that by "better AI" people understand something along the lines of making them tactical geniuses that constantly attempt to flank the player, use covering fire etc.No.Better AI is what I have mentioned above (or what other people mentioned in this thread.There was a post about leapers being able to dodge incoming AoE attacks with their leaps for example).

 

An AI with proper pathing, proper targeting(no more snipers that can't hit the planet they are standing on), capability to better interact with the environment(elevators, taking cover behind something solid instead of a guard rail), ability to properly respond to what is happening around them(lolstealth) and PERHAPS the only ones that need to be capable of flanking or waiting in ambush are (a few, not all) grineer melee units since "attack from the front" is not exactly going to work efficiently against space ninja cyborg killing machines(that or a much more simple health, armour/speed buff in order to make those poor poor butchers or powerfists more than just bullet fodder).

 

Until DE comes to a decision regarding this games AI, I pray that the popularity of this thread shall not doom whatever hopes and dreams I have left for this game while burying us under copious amounts of "special mobs" that cannot die unless hit in their super special glowy weak spot but still ignore the body of their eviscerated friends because y'know he didn't hear any gun shots or didn't see any players so the guys must have just offed themselves like that!

Edited June 3, 2014 by Cabadath5